Hello Everyone,
Great info on the old California southern railroad!
Oceanside to Fallbrook:http://www.abandonedrails.com/Fallbrook_Branch
Elsinore to Perris:http://www.abandonedrails.com/Perris_to_Elsinore_Junction
Temecula to Corona:http://www.abandonedrails.com/Lake_Elsinore_Branch
Enjoy!
More problems …
LINK: Now the Residents are Up in Arms
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
Another Delay and a Tour
Read all about it …
LINK: Press-Enterprise News Clip of September 3, 2013
The biggest problem with relaying the old route between Perris and Lake Elsinore is that part of the original ROW is now under a reservoir, any new connection would require a new ROW.
I have to admit the distance is only a few miles but there sure are not alot of options, almost any route would have to parallel major streets thru residential areas or use river washes, thats going to be a tough nut to crack.
I'm sure any route thru Temecula Canyon could be engineered safely for floods and thru Pendleton could be negotiated, afterall, be a good way to bring marines or recruits into the station.
Have fun with your trains
The story of the washouts was that the native Indians, who had lived there for eons, told the rail builders about the floods in the canyon. The builders did not believe the Indians and built there anyway. Time proved the native Americans correct. Guess they had the last laugh.
K. P. Harrier I hope to visit some of the old route relatively soon, and the forum may find of special interest pictures of what is still present or why a certain area is impractical today. The plan also is to make a cursory evaluation of a potential optional route that fast commuter trains of the future could use. It just strikes me, though, if such a new route came about, it would dramatically alter commuter traffic patterns, rail and highway. Hot on my wish list of things to investigate and photograph is a potentially new route between Murrieta and Perris. Why surveyor Fred Perris didn’t use that possible new route in the 1800’s just baffles me since it appears so obvious, at least to me, but he must have had some reason.
I hope to visit some of the old route relatively soon, and the forum may find of special interest pictures of what is still present or why a certain area is impractical today. The plan also is to make a cursory evaluation of a potential optional route that fast commuter trains of the future could use. It just strikes me, though, if such a new route came about, it would dramatically alter commuter traffic patterns, rail and highway.
Hot on my wish list of things to investigate and photograph is a potentially new route between Murrieta and Perris. Why surveyor Fred Perris didn’t use that possible new route in the 1800’s just baffles me since it appears so obvious, at least to me, but he must have had some reason.
A couple of guesses on your route:
#1 Winchester to Murrietta roughly following Highway 79
#2 Perris to the western edge of Sun City then follow I-215 (Highway 395) to Murrietta
Your reference to Wikipedia about the locals between Fallbrook and Murrieta was stunning. I guess the area folks over a hundred and thirty years ago told the wrong people that the track would get washed out. The Fred Perris clan, who could change the route, probably snuck in and out of that desolate area before the few locals knew what was happening. Take care, K.P.
Your reference to Wikipedia about the locals between Fallbrook and Murrieta was stunning. I guess the area folks over a hundred and thirty years ago told the wrong people that the track would get washed out. The Fred Perris clan, who could change the route, probably snuck in and out of that desolate area before the few locals knew what was happening.
Take care,
K.P.
Stories that I've heard were that Fred Perris was told about problems with flooding, but disbelieved them due to the dryness of the area. According to the Wikipedia article, the storms that caused the 1884 washout dropped forty inches in a period of a month, which is an extraordinary amount of rain for SoCal. Fred Perris wasn't the only RR surveyor suckered into building a line up/down a normally dry streambed, witness the D&RG narrow gauge line to Westcliff built about the same time.
- Erik
K. P. Harrier vsmith (8-2): Much of the old route from Oceanside to Fallbrook is discernible in aerials. It has been difficult to estimate the potential speed of that line if the same alignment of the route was relayed with track, but I suspect it would be semi-impractical for today’s modern higher speed commuter service. The most serious problem, though, as has been pointed out by others at the forum, is that the old abandoned line goes through Camp Pendleton, a Marine Corps base, a branch of America’s national defense. So, from that perspective, a different route would seemingly need to be found in the Oceanside-Murrieta span. A possible route seems to be further southeast, a river route, but how practical that would be with today’s modern and technologically advanced surveying is unknown. I hope to visit some of the old route relatively soon, and the forum may find of special interest pictures of what is still present or why a certain area is impractical today. The plan also is to make a cursory evaluation of a potential optional route that fast commuter trains of the future could use. It just strikes me, though, if such a new route came about, it would dramatically alter commuter traffic patterns, rail and highway. Hot on my wish list of things to investigate and photograph is a potentially new route between Murrieta and Perris. Why surveyor Fred Perris didn’t use that possible new route in the 1800’s just baffles me since it appears so obvious, at least to me, but he must have had some reason. Now that the Friends lawsuit that has been holding things up is settled, Mr. Perris’ old route though the Box Springs area north of March Air Reserve Base is supposed to have radical alterations to the hillsides take place to them. That should be something to see, if nothing else, in photos. Your reference to Wikipedia about the locals between Fallbrook and Murrieta was stunning. I guess the area folks over a hundred and thirty years ago told the wrong people that the track would get washed out. The Fred Perris clan, who could change the route, probably snuck in and out of that desolate area before the few locals knew what was happening. Take care, K.P.
vsmith (8-2):
Much of the old route from Oceanside to Fallbrook is discernible in aerials. It has been difficult to estimate the potential speed of that line if the same alignment of the route was relayed with track, but I suspect it would be semi-impractical for today’s modern higher speed commuter service.
The most serious problem, though, as has been pointed out by others at the forum, is that the old abandoned line goes through Camp Pendleton, a Marine Corps base, a branch of America’s national defense. So, from that perspective, a different route would seemingly need to be found in the Oceanside-Murrieta span. A possible route seems to be further southeast, a river route, but how practical that would be with today’s modern and technologically advanced surveying is unknown.
Now that the Friends lawsuit that has been holding things up is settled, Mr. Perris’ old route though the Box Springs area north of March Air Reserve Base is supposed to have radical alterations to the hillsides take place to them. That should be something to see, if nothing else, in photos.
looking forward to your upcoming findings, K.P.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Southern_Railroad
KP, route looks interesting, any idea how much of it is still in existence? Seams like most of these very old rail routes now have highways and housing developments on top of them
ElCaminoManT (7-31):
Supposedly, actual work on the Perris Valley Line will start in October or November this year. In the past, I’ve tended to be by the line on an average of once a month. So, hopefully, I will be in a position to document some of the line’s upgrading.
Behind the scenes I’ve been doing research on the old California Southern route from Cajon Pass. It went through Perris and Railroad Canyon to Lake Elsinore, and then through Murrieta, Fallbrook, and on to Oceanside. While much of the line got totally washed out and obliterated in the late 1800’s, from aerials much of the other parts of the old right-of-way is visible even today, and the hope is to get out that way to photograph some of the historic right-of-way graded remains.
In that ‘behind the scenes’ research, I’ve found another route available that could blow the whole Perris Valley Line open big time! It could inspire tapping the old California Southern route to Fallbrook and Oceanside! But, I need to do field checking to verify the concepts.
Reaching Hemet is a viable option, so there are a lot of possibilities for future public rail commuting. Upgrading an old freight line is cheaper than building new freeways and some have seen that and are pushing for public money to get spent towards that end in-lieu-of new freeways.
I wonder, though, what the powers that be would do if they came to see what I’ve already figured out route-wise out of Perris. Especially when they realize how cheap it would be! Hopefully, in a month or two I’ll have photos for the forum to make its own assessment of the possibilities.
Best,
nice k.p.
i was actully signing on here to post this update, your version sure looks much nicer than mine would have so thanks for putting it up. cant wait to see the line being updated and used at more than 10mph and maybe one day making its way to hemet
Judge Signs Off, Only Federal Approval Remains
LINK: Press-Enterprise Internet News Clip
usmc1401 The Corps may not be a problem. A large amount of out of service rail remains on the base. The Fallbrook junction wye ends less than a mile from the mainline. A gap without rail is four or five miles long. On the east side of the runway/ airport the rail resumes and heads toward Fallbrook. A large airfield is at Camp Pendelton that most people are unaware of. On the base a museum with Marine Corps vehicles is located in a old warehouse next to the tracks. Surprise a yellow GE 80T locomotive is on display with a ATSF caboose. A flood thirty plus years ago washed out about five miles of track on the base.
The Corps may not be a problem. A large amount of out of service rail remains on the base. The Fallbrook junction wye ends less than a mile from the mainline. A gap without rail is four or five miles long. On the east side of the runway/ airport the rail resumes and heads toward Fallbrook. A large airfield is at Camp Pendelton that most people are unaware of. On the base a museum with Marine Corps vehicles is located in a old warehouse next to the tracks. Surprise a yellow GE 80T locomotive is on display with a ATSF caboose. A flood thirty plus years ago washed out about five miles of track on the base.
I was thinking in terms of getting permission to cross the base. Camp Pendleton dates back only to 1942, so the railroad was already there at the time the base was constructed. Reactivating the railroad would likely involve at the very least an easement, especially if it has been officially abandoned and the ROW has become government property. All of this is only speculation on my part.
John Timm
looking at google maps, id assume its safe to say that Vandegrift Blvd follows what was once pretty much the ROW? i see the tracks east of the runway, very obvious just past Basilone Rd.
im not sure a line from temecula to o-side would make much sense really. corona - temecula would make sense tho
The grading for the ROW between Temecula and Oceanside is (or maybe was) visible from I-15, look at the north side of the Santa Margarita river gorge as it exits away from Temecula. The problem is that the line was built too close to the river bottom, the route may be usable by building a bit higher the side of the gorge.
Rebuilding the Corona to Temecula line does make sense, though I would think that much of the ROW has been built over.
Any such routing would also have to come to terms with the U.S.M.C. and Camp Pendleton. Of course, the Santa Fe ran across the base up to Fallbrook until sometime in the 60's or 70's, but there was probably some kind of agreement in place that would have long since expired.
erikem and usmc1401 (Both 7-22):
You both make good points. Interestingly, locating (and finding material on) the old abandoned California Southern right-of-way between Oceanside and Perris has up till now semi-alluded K.P. However, because of your posts, source material has been uncovered, and now that old right-of-way can be researched at length.
It is desirable to now field check the old route, and to that end effort will be made as time permits in the next few months.
It is suspected that the old right-of-way now under water between Lake Elsinore and Perris won’t be a hindrance, believe it or not. On the other hand, a completely different angle of commuter train routing is cursorily perceived as possible. But, all that will take time to evaluate.
Yes the dam and lake are in the way. Two solutions come to mind. The dam will come down some time due to age and or earthquake strength. Or the line from Corona to Elsinore and Fallbrook could be put back in. Rumor that the section from Corona to Elsinore/Temecula will be put back in for Metrolink.
K. P. Harrier Fred Perris who surveyed the original rail line from San Diego to Barstow (then called Waterman Jct.), I suppose, did quite well except for a stretch between Oceanside and Perris. Years later a cut in the mountains of Cajon Pass on Perris’ line had a massive collapse. There is no practical route* …
Fred Perris who surveyed the original rail line from San Diego to Barstow (then called Waterman Jct.), I suppose, did quite well except for a stretch between Oceanside and Perris. Years later a cut in the mountains of Cajon Pass on Perris’ line had a massive collapse.
There is no practical route* …
The above bridge is the "West Lilac Road" bridge, very familiar to me as I used to live about a mile to the left of the picture. Construction of the bridge and I-15 started early 1977 and the section of I-15 under the bridge was opened in February 1980, bypassing the section of Highway 395 towards the right side of the picture.
The bridge was built at ground level, or a bit more precisely the grade prior to excavation of the cut was where the bridge deck is now, and the cut for the I-15 roadway was excavated after the concrete in the bridge had sufficiently cured. Excavation was still taking place in the spring of 1979 when I bought my house and the previous owner mentioned the cut included a hill about 150' higher than the bridge. Construction crews mentioned that some 24 million cubic yards of material was removed from the cut and used for the fill in the foreground of the picture.
I-15 was designed with a 4% maximum grade along this stretch, the Highway 395 grade was 7%.
My first visit to OERM in Perris took place in December 1976, which was just before construction started - the intersection of SR-76 and US-395 was governed by a traffic light in the middle of farmland.
In light of the closeness between Oceanside and Perris, I would say it is only a matter of time before someone pushes for rebuilding Fred Perris’ old route. Such would be a boon to the Inland Empire, Riverside, and Perris areas. Two things should be understood in assessing the idea. (1) Surveying is very different today than it was in the 1870’s and 1880’s, and (2) popular highways traverse through near the old route today. So, the concept is not as crazy as it first sounds. Some parts of the San Diego-Oceanside line’s commuter trains today go 80 M.P.H, even 90 M.P.H. The Perris Valley Line undoubtedly will have comparable run sections. If the powers that be put their minds to it, with newfound technologies and methods, Fred Perris’ general old route might be found very tempting to lay track on, that would be secure from the flooding aspects of the late 1800’s. Of course, if such a happening did come about, would BNSF insist on trackage rights as it has on the old California Southern route now in the Perris area?
In light of the closeness between Oceanside and Perris, I would say it is only a matter of time before someone pushes for rebuilding Fred Perris’ old route. Such would be a boon to the Inland Empire, Riverside, and Perris areas. Two things should be understood in assessing the idea. (1) Surveying is very different today than it was in the 1870’s and 1880’s, and (2) popular highways traverse through near the old route today. So, the concept is not as crazy as it first sounds.
Some parts of the San Diego-Oceanside line’s commuter trains today go 80 M.P.H, even 90 M.P.H. The Perris Valley Line undoubtedly will have comparable run sections. If the powers that be put their minds to it, with newfound technologies and methods, Fred Perris’ general old route might be found very tempting to lay track on, that would be secure from the flooding aspects of the late 1800’s.
Of course, if such a happening did come about, would BNSF insist on trackage rights as it has on the old California Southern route now in the Perris area?
I tend to agree with Mudchicken about problems with rebuilding the Temecula - Oceanside line. There's also a -um- minor detail that much of the ROW between Perris and Elsinore being aprt of the Railroad Canyon Reservoir.
Beyond the Perris Valley Line
On Wednesday, July 17, 2013 forum contributor ElCaminoManT started a thread entitled “Back on track!” that conveyed an announcement similar to posts in this thread. His thread very quickly changed directions and several made quite intelligent comments with a historical flare on that new direction.
Since that new direction in that thread is ‘related’ to this thread, K.P. finds it desirable to comment on it herein.
… other than what Fred Perris found that goes through the Lake Elsinore (not shown) and Perris (shown) areas.
----------
For those interested, ElCaminoManT’s thread that inspired this particular Perris Valley Line Updates single follow-up post can be found at:
http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/t/219231.aspx
* The above May 2010 FIRST photo’s area is in the below aerial LINK:
Area of Cool Looking Bridge South of California S.R. 76 & I-15
One non-user because of living away from the line had an interesting perspective about the Perris Valley Line settlement …
LINK: A Letter to the Editor
ElCaminoManT (7-17):
Thanks for the news links. I’ve been watching for such material, but unfortunately and unbelievably “Perris Valley Line” was NOT the magical words to search for. The news material you provided, while about that subject, did not even use those words. Strange case …
I’m curious what $3 million will be spent on in satisfying the environmental group! Maybe a dirt trail grade separation so that trespassers can still trespass and not have to worry about being hit by a train? Would RCTC accept liability if someone stubbed their toe walking underneath the track? It should be interesting to see what actually pacified the ‘Friends’ group.
The Links
Blog: Short material
The clip: Longer news article
i meant to post this here but it somehow ended up in the actual forum? sorry
looks like an agreement has been reached with the greenies....to the tune of 3 mil. at least its going to happen finally!
http://blog.pe.com/2013/07/10/perris-rctc-announces-perris-valley-line-settlement/
and
http://www.pe.com/local-news/riverside-county/perris/perris-headlines-index/20130710-perris-valley-line-3-million-settlement-reached-with-environmental-group.ece
Area Representative Sends Letter
According to the Press-Enterprise, which seems to lead the news coverage of the Perris Valley Line, an area congressional representative sent a letter to the Federal Transit Administration urging that the appropriated funds be saved during this time of uncertainty and litigation.
LINK: Press-Enterprise Story and Letter
While the above news is dated before the previous post, K.P. just found the material, and is passing it along to the forum.
The Judge’s Ruling Is Now Being Appealed
From the Press-Enterprise news website:
LINK: The Appeals Story
MP57313 (6-11):
Oh, yes, Highway 395, with stoplights and all!
The March Air Force Base “spur” that you mentioned crossed Highway 395 on TWO legs, i.e., a wye type arrangement, with each leg crossing 395 with its own grade crossing flashers.
I actually saw a Santa Fe local parked on one of those legs once years ago, for an unknown activity.
Outside of that, MP57313, I’m like you, and never really saw a train cross Highway 395 or go by the Base itself.
With the advent of I-215 (which converted Highway 395 to Interstate standards), that wye arrangement went bye-bye, and it is unknown if it could even be found now, but the below aerials seems to indicate everything from the past in the Cactus Ave. area is all obliterated now with the I-215 overlaying.
LINK: The Old Wye Area
When the Perris Valley Line eventually is built, the last vestiges of the wye, if there are any, surely will go into nonexistence.
Opinionville for June, 2013
LINK: Opinion FOR the Friends
LINK: Opinion FOR Metrolink
LINK: Scaling Press-Enterprise Editorial
K.P., thanks for the updates on this line. I have not been out that way for several years and did not realize that some preliminary construction had begun.
I rode the OERM-to-Highgrove [junction with the transcon] segment about 10 years ago on an OERM chartered rare mileage train. That BNSF track was rough; our speed was maybe 10 mph (but closer to 25 mph on the museum's track!). At the time, they mentioned that one of the freight customers along the route received hopper cars of plastic pellets to be transformed into sprinkler pipe. Also, the UP diamond was still in place back then.
Meanwhile, back in the day, when the highway was US 395...I also recall seeing a spur that crossed the highway to what was then March Air Force Base. I never saw a train on that spur, though.
MP
Conniving!
This seems to have gotten by us, but the Press-Enterprise of May 23, 2013 had a news clip about the Riverside County Transportation Commission’s current efforts.
LINK: The News Clip
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