edblysard That’s odd…I read the entire thing, and I didn’t find anywhere in there where it said I can’t use dynamite to remove rail spikes…
That’s odd…I read the entire thing, and I didn’t find anywhere in there where it said I can’t use dynamite to remove rail spikes…
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Overmod Hint: the flame in the cutting torch doesn't do the cutting, if you're going through mainline rail in "30 seconds"; the oxygen does. Surely you can see the consequences of a large excess of oxygen in contact with rapidly heated, then rapidly quenched HAZ. Or the stress raisers introduced by all the irregular zones around the cutting. With reference to burning bolt holes -- well, I could go into discussions of stress raisers, incomplete contact between bolt shank and bore, and some other things even before getting into oxidized slag and so forth. I do not interpret FRA regulations as saying that what is not demonized is automatically clearly permissible. It's just understood by competent track engineers that you DON'T DO IT where heavy loads and speeds are expected. If I were modding this thread, I'd clearly note it as being in the mutual-dead-horse category. (Of course, I thought it verged over into that category when I understood that Thomas had accused Mudchicken of not understanding right-of-way engineering... but I'm not going into ad-hominem territory when the subject deserves objective engineering attention.) Can somebody point Thomas to some proper reference material on rail metallurgy and the proper application of rail technology, perhaps from AREMA? Not much further insight is going to come out of this "discussion" as I see it going...
Hint: the flame in the cutting torch doesn't do the cutting, if you're going through mainline rail in "30 seconds"; the oxygen does. Surely you can see the consequences of a large excess of oxygen in contact with rapidly heated, then rapidly quenched HAZ. Or the stress raisers introduced by all the irregular zones around the cutting. With reference to burning bolt holes -- well, I could go into discussions of stress raisers, incomplete contact between bolt shank and bore, and some other things even before getting into oxidized slag and so forth.
I do not interpret FRA regulations as saying that what is not demonized is automatically clearly permissible. It's just understood by competent track engineers that you DON'T DO IT where heavy loads and speeds are expected.
If I were modding this thread, I'd clearly note it as being in the mutual-dead-horse category. (Of course, I thought it verged over into that category when I understood that Thomas had accused Mudchicken of not understanding right-of-way engineering... but I'm not going into ad-hominem territory when the subject deserves objective engineering attention.)
Can somebody point Thomas to some proper reference material on rail metallurgy and the proper application of rail technology, perhaps from AREMA? Not much further insight is going to come out of this "discussion" as I see it going...
As someone who has spent most of career my as a welder and fabricator, I have extensive knowledge of metals and their properties.
I never accused Mudchicken of not understand right of way engineering. I said that one of the ways of repairing a broken rail is cutting it out with a torch and inserting another piece of rail. The responses to my comment were negative and inaccurate One of his responses was.. "Do that on any railroad around me and you're fired. Then the FRA comes looking for you with a laundry list of Code 1's. Hope you have a deep bank account. Wrong on so many levels.."
I posted the FRA rules concerning the use of torch cut rail, and what we found is that it is permissible and allowed on all tracks with a freight speed of up to 25mph and a passenger speed up to 30mph. That would include most of your yards (including class ones), mainlines with speeds up to 25mph, and most of your industries and spurs. We are talking tens of thousands of miles or track here. To say I was wrong on so many levels is inaccurate.
Mudchickens response of " torch cut anything in a main track is a bozo no-no". Considering there is mainlines all over this country that run freight under 25 mph (such as your shortlines) torch cut rail is allowed and that statement is false.
He also said "The dumb stunts/ super-shoddy practice you describe might be allowed in exceped track somewhere, but passenger trains are not allowed on excepted track, period".
While it is true passenger trains are not allowed on excepted track, they are allowed on class 1 and 2 track where torch cut rail is allowed.
I fail to understand why this is a dead horse thread? Someone asked about broken rail repairs and I gave my opinion on the matter. I think I have provided a wealth of accurate information straight from the source. Clearly we have people who somehow think their opinion should somehow be taken for the truth when in fact they were called out on it and were proven wrong.
I am totally willing to get into a discussion regarding welding rail, cutting rail, and welding rails with thermite. As I said earlier there is no proof that heating that rail using these methods causes problems. If you can find proof otherwise I would suggest you post it so we can discuss it.
I know the cutting torch seems to be demonized in this forum, however I found no evidence that the cutting torch changes anything in the structure of the rail including making it brittle, changing the hardness, or making it more likely to break. I spent many hours researching this subject including reading the rules of contractors, railroads, the FRA, etc and found no such evidence.
Likewise I am not going to ignore what others posted including that article concerning the Amtrak derailment, and will fully acknowledge that the use of the cutting torch was to blame for this accident. However this is just one accident that can be blamed on the cutting torch out of hundreds of derailments over the years due to broken, damaged, or mis repaired rails.
I know there is many opinions in this forum, but I have to keep insisting that the people who are the experts on these matters is the FRA who obviously have spent a great deal of time and research into these issues. I already posted the rules concerning the use of the cutting torch for cutting rails by the FRA and these rules were posted in the year 2012.
You can read the entire section of rules regarding cutting rails with a cutting torch and there is nothing written concerning reaching a critical temperature, getting the rail too hot, preheating, cooling, loss of hardness, etc. Surely if there was problems that would make a rail more likely to fail using the cutting torch it would have been written in there. Anyone who has ever cut rail road track with a cut off saw (which I have) knows it generates enough heat to get the metal glowing red hot to the point where it wont even cut anymore.
I also find it ironic that people seem to believe that using a cutting torch is going to lead to some sort of catastrophic failure due to the heat, yet thermite welding which leaves both ends of the rail glowing bright red is somehow more safe.
As said earlier I have found no evidence that using a cutting torch, welding a rail joint, or using thermite welding to fill a gap changes the rail to make it brittle, prone to damage or failure, or decrease it's life span. If the FRA approves of these methods and considers them safe, then who am I to say to say that they are not?
Notice how a lot of it states, “if the owner of the track decides…”
That of course sets the liability squarely on the carrier’s shoulders.
Also note it states “person qualified under article…”
That will often be the road foreman or assistant road foreman, they are the ones that make the final decision of whether to repair, replace the section of rail, and if what is currently there can be repaired temporally to the point a train can be moved over the break.
The same person will do an inspection to determine what caused the break, and what is required to make a permanent repair or replacement.
Again, if he is wrong, the liability rest on him, so those guys are pretty current on the engineering and cause effect aspect.
Road foreman have to “put in the time” before they get the position, and they keep current on the new regs and rules, often by attending the AREMA conventions, (where Mudchicken gives some of the presentations) and by updates from the FRA.
While most folks view MOW guys as somewhat simply manual labor, the truth is most of them have a lot more experience that we think, and the guys in charge of them have several degrees in railroad engineering and design.
BaltACDDoubt the MofW guys on the ground at 0 dark 30 are fully conversant with the in's and out's of the FRA regs - however, their Supervision had better have driven home the signifigant do's and don'ts that apply to fixing broken rails. From my observations and contact with the MofW personnel on my carrier - THEY DO!
Don't get me wrong, Balt. I don't question their competence. They are well aware of the horrendous accidents a broken rail can cause and know their job is to prevent such accidents.
But the FRA regulations are really not well written and where that happens the regs themselves can be ambiguous and lead to errors. I worked for the government. Usually the regs are straight forward but sometimes they are not and sometimes doing things the right way despite the regs can be a challenge.
John WR Thanks for the information. The idea of a rail shattering as a passenger train goes over it is pretty scary. But it is what it is. When I started reading this thread I now see I didn't take it seriously enough. After all, (I foolishly though) a railroad rail is a pretty robust thing. Was I ever wrong. Now I know more but it only means I am slightly less ignorant than I was before. Sitting here in my living room I had to read the FRA regulations a few times to make sense of them. And I wonder about the guys doing the repair and looking at their manual to be sure they do it right. They are outside, maybe in bad weather, maybe under pressure of time or something else. Are they really able to understand what is written in such a difficult and obscure style? I hope so.
Thanks for the information. The idea of a rail shattering as a passenger train goes over it is pretty scary. But it is what it is.
When I started reading this thread I now see I didn't take it seriously enough. After all, (I foolishly though) a railroad rail is a pretty robust thing. Was I ever wrong. Now I know more but it only means I am slightly less ignorant than I was before.
Sitting here in my living room I had to read the FRA regulations a few times to make sense of them. And I wonder about the guys doing the repair and looking at their manual to be sure they do it right. They are outside, maybe in bad weather, maybe under pressure of time or something else. Are they really able to understand what is written in such a difficult and obscure style? I hope so.
Doubt the MofW guys on the ground at 0 dark 30 are fully conversant with the in's and out's of the FRA regs - however, their Supervision had better have driven home the signifigant do's and don'ts that apply to fixing broken rails. From my observations and contact with the MofW personnel on my carrier - THEY DO! They may not be able to quote the FRA regs, but the know what the acceptable practices are and follow them. If they put angle bars on a broken rail, 10 MPH speed restriction remains until a plug rail is welded in place for the permanent repair.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I found the item. It's in the July 1985 Trains, under "For want of supervision.." in the front columns.
The derailment happened at Woodlawn, TX on November 12, 1983. Amtrak's Eagle derailed at 72 mph, killing 4 and injuring 72. MoPac track forces had torch-cut, instead of using a rail saw per railroad instructions, the rail while repairing a broken field weld. The rail involved was a German manufactured, chrome-vanadium alloy, high strength, vacuum-treated 132 lbs rail.
Before the passenger train passed over it, a freight train was allowed over the rail at 50 mph. None of the junior MOW personnel were aware of the prohibition of using a torch except in emergencies. (Although I would think the main track out of service could be considered an emergency, so long as you repaired it correctly after you get traffic moving again.) The senior MOW person, the roadmaster (Forget what I said about his being new, I was confusing another MOW story on another railroad.) was aware of only torch-cutting the rail in an emergency, but not of the required 10 mph speed restriction when doing so.
Jeff
Paul_D_North_Jr Back in the late 1970's or early 1980's a MoPac track foreman cut a high-alloy premium rail with a cutting torch for a temporary repair. A day or two later an Amtrak train derailed when that rail broke under it, killing something like 6 persons. The failure was notable because the rail shattered into something like 15 pieces - not what anyone would have expected. It was written up in front columns of Trains at the time. - Paul North.
Back in the late 1970's or early 1980's a MoPac track foreman cut a high-alloy premium rail with a cutting torch for a temporary repair. A day or two later an Amtrak train derailed when that rail broke under it, killing something like 6 persons. The failure was notable because the rail shattered into something like 15 pieces - not what anyone would have expected. It was written up in front columns of Trains at the time.
- Paul North.
Paul, I've been thinking of that and am going to try to find that item. I seem to recall it was a young roadmaster (not very long promoted) that ordered the repair done that way, but he failed to put a 10mph (required at that time by the railroad, if not the FRA itself) speed restriction on the repair.
Deggesty Paul, am I right in surmising that the heat of the torch does undesirable things to the temper of the rail?
I suspect the FRA included and allowed cutting torches in the Track Safety Standard regulations only because their use was so prevalent, and better to reflect reality than to deny it. But their use seems to be very tightly controlled and limited to truly emergency, temporary, or marginal situations.
Another way to very temporarily protect a rail break is by installing gage rods - preferably the type that has a rail clamp on both sides of the damaged rail, not just on the outside, so as to prevent the rail from twisting or rolling as well as from moving laterally. This depends on having good tie condition or other support and restraints against motion as well, but sometimes that's where a rail will break anyhow, for reasons best known to the rail itself.
There is no disrespect to anyone's expertise in posting sections of the FRA regulations.
Murphy Siding I'm going to guess that the FRA based their ideas on the effects of heat on rail strength on a lot of testing, not on anecdotal evidence from scrapyard workers cutting old rail with torches.
I'm going to guess that the FRA based their ideas on the effects of heat on rail strength on a lot of testing, not on anecdotal evidence from scrapyard workers cutting old rail with torches.
And based on the results of millions of tons of traffic passing over the rail.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Paul, am I right in surmising that the heat of the torch does undesirable things to the temper of the rail?
Many years ago I worked as a burner in a scrap metal yard. One of the things we used to cut up on a regular basis is railroad track. You can take a torch and cut that rail in half, wait about 10 seconds and then lay your hand on that rail you just cut and it will not be hot enough to burn your hand. Thick metal like rail road track absorbs heat in a big way. It took me a average of 30 seconds to cut a piece of rail in half with a cutting torch. That 30 seconds which included movement from top to bottom is hardly putting any heat into the rail except that 1/4" section where the torch cut.
What about thermite welding and welding rails with a arc welder? Thermite welding is used all the time and the temperatures are over 2,000 degrees?
As far as cracked bolt holes are concerned. If you check the FRA rule book you will find that cracked bolt holes are a common rail defect regardless if they are drilled with a drill bit or cut with a cutting torch. If you had 3 miles of cracked bolt holes I think it is safe to say those thousands of bolt holes were not made using a cutting torch.
Thomas 9011 ... and probably all of your tourist trains.
... and probably all of your tourist trains.
Nope - we've got 40 MPH track.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
mudchicken $10K+ fine (against the individual or company or both) = Code 1 Violation
$10K+ fine (against the individual or company or both) = Code 1 Violation
Thanks! Kind of small chnge for a class 1, but definitely painful for most individuals.
To follow up on what Paul said about torch cut bolt holes, the torch cut holes at OERM looked pretty nasty after ~30 years of exposure to the relatively dry climate in Perris. I hate to think what a torch cut hole would look like in a humid salt air environment. The jagged edges look like great breeding grounds for corrosion.
- Erik
A few things to add here.
First, I know Mudchicken personally, he is an expert, this type of work is what he has done for a living for a Class 1 years upon years, his area of responsibility was (and still is) one of those crown jewels of railroad.
Currently, he designs, and builds track work and consults through a well-known in the industry and very prestigious firm.
He chooses to remain somewhat anomyous due to his connection with this firm, but having met him several times, and knowing his bona-fides, if he say “this is the way it has to be”…then that’s the way it has to be.
Between the Muddy One and Paul North, you have several years of hands on real world experience answering your questions.
John WR…I do work for a railroad, the PTRA, a Class 3 Switching and Terminal Railroad in Harris County, Tx.
I have found broken rail both the easy way, (saw it before we hit it) and the hard way..(Clunk cha clunk)…the FRA takes rail repair very very seriously.
The rules are not something intended to be gotten around or avoided, in fact, they are laws that must be obeyed, especially when you haul fun stuff, like pressurized cyanide gas, every type of LPG you can name, chlorine, ammonia, phenol, caustics, and hydrochloric acid and Methyl Ethel awful…the FRA insists our track meet class 2 track standards because of the commodities we handle.
In our yards, we are allowed to either install a temporary Dutchman to repair broken rail or, if possible, a joint bar as described, but torch cutting is not allowed, on our main lines the rail can be “clamped” as described, but only to rescue a train, once clear, the rail is replaced, with boudette welds and a new piece of rail, and we are a Class 3, max speed restricted speed not to exceed 20 mph.
The FRA is so serious about this stuff and operating rules, they fined us $36000.00 last month because a conductor left the lock off of a main line crossover, went less than 200 feet, un-locked a industry switch, shoved a cut into the industry, and came back out.
The conductor was never more than 200, maybe 300 feet away from the un locked switch, but they still popped us with the fine.
In the 16 years I have been there, we have been fined twice for incorrect rail work, once because a yard frog point was welded/repaired incorrectly, and once because a new contract track worker used a cutting torch to “trim” the end of a rail leading to an industry lead.
They don’t play around with this stuff, it is why they were created in the first place, and trust me, if there is anything a government worker learns quickly, it is to make sure they can justify their job.
Johnny
Very short version of an interesting project: A few years back an electric generating power plant - Atlantic City Electric Co.'s B. L. England Plant in Beesley's Point (Marmora), NJ (near Ocean City) where I was the maintenance contractor had a rash of rail-end breaks - maybe 1 a month (that's a lot for a facility like that). We hired the Sperry people to run one of their rail defect detector trucks over the plant's tracks. Its ultrasonic test gear found something like 33 defective rails in 3+ miles of track. Every single defective rail found was a bolt-hole break-out at the end, from a torch-cut rail.
An easy way to scrap rails is to cut just half-way through them from the top with a cutting torch, then whack the end with a heavy sledge hammer.
I'm almost to the point of banning cutting torches anywhere near tracks for which I'm responsible - these are the reasons why.
zugmann Mudchicken isn't "suddenly" an expert. He IS an expert.
Mudchicken isn't "suddenly" an expert.
He IS an expert.
Thomas 9011 I am doing is posting information straight from the FRA rule books. Mudchicken can say what he wants or anyone else for that matter. I can frankly care less what anyone says about these issues unless that can back them up with facts. If you can't back them up with facts or statistics (that are recent) then why should I believe what people say? From what I have been reading in this forum so far, nearly all of what has been said has been incorrect to say the least. I am providing facts from the FRA rule book so hopefully people are much more informed that what they are now.
I am doing is posting information straight from the FRA rule books. Mudchicken can say what he wants or anyone else for that matter. I can frankly care less what anyone says about these issues unless that can back them up with facts. If you can't back them up with facts or statistics (that are recent) then why should I believe what people say?
From what I have been reading in this forum so far, nearly all of what has been said has been incorrect to say the least. I am providing facts from the FRA rule book so hopefully people are much more informed that what they are now.
Because talking about strippers and losing lottery tickets gets old ?
RS
Concerning defective rails...
213.133
(a) When an owner of track to which this part applies learns, through inspection or otherwise, that a rail in that track contains any of the defects listed in the following table, a person designated under §213.7 shall determine whether or not the track may continue in use. If he determines that the track may continue in use, operation over the defective rail
A2. Assign person designated under §213.7 to make visual inspection. After a visual inspection, that person may authorize operation to continue without continuous visual supervision at a maximum of 10 m.p.h. for up to 24 hours prior to another such visual inspection or replacement or repair of the rail.
B. Limit operating speed over defective rail to that as authorized by a person designated under §213.7(a), who has at least one year of supervisory experience in railroad track maintenance. The operating speed cannot be over 30 m.p.h. or the maximum allowable speed under §213.9 for the class of track concerned, whichever is lower.
C. Apply joint bars bolted only through the outermost holes to defect within 20 days after it is determined to continue the track in use. In the case of Classes 3 through 5 track, limit operating speed over defective rail to 30 m.p.h. until joint bars are applied; thereafter, limit speed to 50 m.p.h. or the maximum allowable speed under §213.9 for the class of track concerned, whichever is lower. When a search for internal rail defects is conducted under §213.237, and defects are discovered in Classes 3 through 5 which require remedial action C, the operating speed shall be limited to 50 m.p.h., or the maximum allowable speed under §213.9 for the class of track concerned, whichever is lower, for a period not to exceed 4 days. If the defective rail has not been removed from the track or a permanent repair made within 4 days of the discovery, limit operating speed over the defective rail to 30 m.p.h. until joint bars are applied; thereafter, limit speed to 50 m.p.h. or the maximum allowable speed under §213.9 for the class of track concerned, whichever is lower.
D. Apply joint bars bolted only through the outermost holes to defect within 10 days after it is determined to continue the track in use. In the case of Classes 3 through 5 track, limit operating speed over the defective rail to 30 m.p.h. or less as authorized by a person designated under §213.7(a), who has at least one year of supervisory experience in railroad track maintenance, until joint bars are applied; thereafter, limit speed to 50 m.p.h. or the maximum allowable speed under §213.9 for the class of track concerned, whichever is lower.
With posts like the below it makes me wonder why I (or any other RRer) bothers anymore.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
I also decided to do some research for my peace of mind into the rules of cutting railroad track with a torch and found these rules...
213.122 torch cut rail
122(a) Except as a temporary repair in emergency situations no rail having a torch cut end shall be used in classes 3 through 5 track. When a rail end is touch cut in emergency situations, train speed over that rail end shall not exceed the maximum allowable for class 2 track.
So we know that we can not use the cutting torch for class 3-5 track ( maximum freight speed 40mph and maximum passenger speed 60mph) except in emergencies.
But using the cutting torch is allowed for excepted track, and class one and two. What type of track does this cover? It covers all track that has a maximum freight speed of 25mph and a maximum passenger speed of 30mph. This would included the majority of short lines and probably all of your tourist trains.
I also found a rule concerning using a cutting torch for cutting bolt holes.
213.121 (121 G) No rail shall have a bolt hole which is torch cut or burned in classes 2-5 track.
You would be allowed to cut a bolt hole with a torch with tracks with a maximum freight speed of 10mph and a maximum of 15 for passenger
Thomas 9011 It seems every time we have these discussions involving technical issues, suddenly everyone is a expert in what we are talking about. But as we all know most of the people who claim to know what they are talking about usually don't have any railroad experience or if they did have railroad experience it was 25 years ago. Since I am a information junkie, I decided to go right to the source of these rules and regulations and went to the official FRA website and looked up the codes and regulations which were actually very well up to date and found them very interesting. I actually learned many new things about rail defects and was pleased with the numerous photos included. If someone can make this link active I would appreciate it since I don't know how to do it. You can also just copy and paste it into your browser. http://www.fra.dot.gov/eLib/details/L04206
It seems every time we have these discussions involving technical issues, suddenly everyone is a expert in what we are talking about. But as we all know most of the people who claim to know what they are talking about usually don't have any railroad experience or if they did have railroad experience it was 25 years ago.
Since I am a information junkie, I decided to go right to the source of these rules and regulations and went to the official FRA website and looked up the codes and regulations which were actually very well up to date and found them very interesting. I actually learned many new things about rail defects and was pleased with the numerous photos included.
If someone can make this link active I would appreciate it since I don't know how to do it. You can also just copy and paste it into your browser.
http://www.fra.dot.gov/eLib/details/L04206
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