How to 'Ask Trains' / Broken Rail repairs

[cgarch]

First 'Ask Trains' seems pretty good, but there is no link on how to submit a question, so how does any one ever 'Ask Trains?'

Broken rail repairs: While eastbound on the Zephyr 12/28-12/29/12 the train was stopped (one of many times) just west of Cisco, UT due to a broken rail (heard it all on the radio). They didn't tell the passengers, other than we were stopped for some 'track work.' Of course a broken rail brings the image a of a horrific delay. Over the radio the repair was described as 'barring' the rail. So what was the repair and how do railroads repair broken rails in the middle of nowhere with something way less than a track gang?

[edblysard]

If the break is relatively clean, you can install a joint bar temporarily as a fix.

[PNWRMNM]

To elaborate just a bit on Ed's response, this operation requires a rail drill and bit, a pair of correct size angle bars and 4 or 6 nut/bolt/and washer sets. Operation is to drill holes, set bars on each side of rail, and bolt it up. The result is a rail joint. If rail has also pulled apart, likely in winter, then rail will have to be heated for many feet to expand it and close the gap between the ends.

Mac

[jeffhergert]

PNWRMNM

To elaborate just a bit on Ed's response, this operation requires a rail drill and bit, a pair of correct size angle bars and 4 or 6 nut/bolt/and washer sets. Operation is to drill holes, set bars on each side of rail, and bolt it up. The result is a rail joint. If rail has also pulled apart, likely in winter, then rail will have to be heated for many feet to expand it and close the gap between the ends.

Mac

I've had section forces place the angle bars and one bolt (instead of a hole, the bolt goes thru where the break is) to hold the rail ends together enough to "walk" us over it.  Once clear, then they fixed the break.

I'm sure it depends on factors like how the rail breaks, how bad it is, etc for them to do that.  Most of the time when stopped at a broken rail we wait while they fix the rail. 

Jeff

[mudchicken]

The FRA Part 213 rules are pretty clear on what happens (49CFR213.113). The qualified trackman has to make the call on what to do and what the remedial action is. The rest is logistics and scraping-up the people to do the work.

If you have a rail detector out there, you have folks chasing the thing. The rail detector never goes out unescorted and should he find too much, he is sent home early so the trailing forces can catch up. The process starts again the next day.

In a case where a break is random, say a signalman finds a break that causes an unanticipated stop/red signal. Then it's: (1) Notify the DS and try to locate the local 2-4 man track gang (who these days has a huge territory and may be tens or hundreds of miles away....the motor track inspector may have the tools with him to bar a defective rail by himself, but he cannot handle rail w/o a crane and another set of hands at minimum (the days of a section gang every ten miles are long gone)); (2) find the nearest replacement rail and a truck/ crane to move it (stockpiles are more lean these days) and (3) get the people and proper tools to the site. All of this takes time and this is what you experienced.

The track guys are doing the best they can with the resources allocated, especially with a passenger train involved. The minimum bolts as Jeff described is just enough to get the train over the break as Jeff described.  If the bulldog bar or joint bar is left for more than a few hours, extra bolts are applied until remedial action is taken.

(The signalman or trainman does NOT make the call on passing over a broken rail. They are not FRA qualified to do so. In the meantime, everybody sits and waits patiently.)

[BaltACD]

Just having a broken rail is not always a 'immobilizing' defect to the continuing operation of the railroads.  In signaled territory, most broken rails are discovered after a passing train has left a track occupancy light on the Dispatchers model board after the train has departed that track segment.  Trains will continue to operate through the track segment at Restricted Speed in accordance with rules that apply when the Dispatcher is unable to line a signal into the track segment, or by the Restricted Proceed signal indication that would be displayed on a Intermediate (with numberboard) signal entering the specific track segment.  Current of Traffic signal systems still exist on a steadily decreasing amount of rail mileage, in most instances these lines do not display track circuits on Dispatchers model boards - only the intermediate signals display indications to trains moving with the current of traffic; other rules apply to trains operated against the current of traffic without signal indications.  When a Signal Maintainer or Track Inspector finds the broken rail they make the decision of whether trains can be passed over the break until repairs are made.

As can be seen in the following video, small segments of missing rail do not always generate catastrophic derailments

watch?v=D 8gV4DJZUw

[cgarch]

Thanks to all - that was enlightening.

Craig

[John WR]

BaltACD

As can be seen in the following video, small segments of missing rail do not always generate catastrophic derailments

The video is fascinating.  But if small segments of missing rail do not cause derailments might it be possible to deliberately omit some of them?  If one foot of rail were omitted out of each 50 feet installed on each track with the omitted sections staggered we could save about 2 percent of the cost of building a railroad.

[BaltACD]

John WR

BaltACD

As can be seen in the following video, small segments of missing rail do not always generate catastrophic derailments

The video is fascinating.  But if small segments of missing rail do not cause derailments might it be possible to deliberately omit some of them?  If one foot of rail were omitted out of each 50 feet installed on each track with the omitted sections staggered we could save about 2 percent of the cost of building a railroad.

Possible but not recommend unless you want the following ride qualities - which affect freight as well as passengers

watch?v=QF7odK55gkI

[John WR]

BaltACD

Possible but not recommend unless you want the following ride qualities - which affect freight as well as passengers

Spoilsport.

[Deggesty]

BaltACD

John WR

BaltACD

As can be seen in the following video, small segments of missing rail do not always generate catastrophic derailments

The video is fascinating.  But if small segments of missing rail do not cause derailments might it be possible to deliberately omit some of them?  If one foot of rail were omitted out of each 50 feet installed on each track with the omitted sections staggered we could save about 2 percent of the cost of building a railroad.

Possible but not recommend unless you want the following ride qualities - which affect freight as well as passengers

watch?v=QF7odK55gkI

Yes, a flat wheel is bad enough. Let's keep the track continuous.

[Thomas 9011]

You can repair a broken rail rather easily. You need a new section of rail ( this can be as short as 3 feet), a gas powered cut off saw, and a track drill to drill a few holes. You simply cut out the broken section with a cut off saw, insert the new rail, drill holes for the joints, tighten the joint down, and drive in a few spikes. You could probably do the whole process in around 45 minutes depending on how long the rail is. You can also do this process with just a cutting torch by cutting the bad rail out, inserting the new rail and then cutting out holes with the torch in the new rail for the joint bolts. It's a little more sloppy but it works just as good.

If the track is damaged really bad you can bring a flat car with a few pieces of section track. Section track already has the ties and rails nailed down and is usually 39 feet long. It's much like laying down track on a model rail layout.

 

[mudchicken]

Thomas:

Do that on any railroad around me and you're fired. Then the FRA comes looking for you with a laundry list of Code 1's. Hope you have a deep bank account.

Wrong on so many levels.

[Thomas 9011]

I have worked for the Union pacific railroad about 6 years ago. Would you mind explaining what rules are violated? 

Under FRA rules it is perfectly legal to have a train travel over a broken rail as long as a track inspector has inspected the break and given approval. Speed must not be over restricted speed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMJhIydN1ZA

Here is another video of a Norfolk southern crew replacing what appears to be no more than a 6 foot piece of rail exactly as I said they would in this video. The only exception is they used thermite welding instead of a joint.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIrB_4U9V1g

 

 

 

[mudchicken]

To start with, torch cut anything in a main track is a bozo no-no  49CFR213.122 in anything  above Class 2 track. Torch cut joints or bolt holes in UP's and BNSF's Chief Engineer's instructions is forbidden. (Remember - FRA rules are minimum standard)....welders are being discouraged from including torch cuts in thermite/boutet welds for fear of occlusions, voids and poor metallurgy - boutet welds are predictably failing (and driving welding supervisors nuts - hopefully the d-car finds the defect first.).

There is not a class one out there that will allow a jointed main track plug out there shorter than 15 foot (16-6 is the usual call and is what length most bonded insulated joints and compromise transition extruded rails come in)...anything shorter than that is trouble, especially in a curve. (won't meet 49 CFR 213.115 or 213.55 in many cases - you're building a kink and putting undue stress on a joint)

The dumb stunts/ super-shoddy practice  you describe  might be allowed in exceped track somewhere, but passenger trains are not allowed on excepted track, period.

Crawling a train over a band-aid is one thing, walking away from the band-aid and leaving it in service is a code 1 or worse.

 

[Randy Stahl]

And a track worker cannot use restricted speed on track. Restricted speed can be up to 20 MPH on my RR.

 Restricted speed does not allow an engineer to pass over a broken rail. Restricted speed means watching out for broken rails, if you are running at restricted speed and you go on the ground on a broken rail you will get time off.

Track defect will always have a speed limit in MPH.

 

Randy

 

[zugmann]

Randy Stahl

 Restricted speed does not allow an engineer to pass over a broken rail. Restricted speed means watching out for broken rails, if you are running at restricted speed and you go on the ground on a broken rail you will get time off.

no you won't.  Rule says "watch out" for broken rail - not stop short of.  Otherwise all trains at restricted speed would be moving at a walking pace.

[Randy Stahl]

The way I was taught and the way I teach the rule is that if you run over a broken rail you better get the train stopped as soon as you can consistant with good train handling. After stopping the section can make the decision to either cut the train and repair the break or give the engineer permission to drag the rest of his train across. A locomotive engineer is not qualified to make the call.

 

I assume if you ran across a broken rail while operating at restricted speed your not going to trust to luck and hope the entire train makes it across the break ?

 

Randy

 

[zugmann]

Randy Stahl

The way I was taught and the way I teach the rule is that if you run over a broken rail you better get the train stopped as soon as you can consistant with good train handling. After stopping the section can make the decision to either cut the train and repair the break or give the engineer permission to drag the rest of his train across. A locomotive engineer is not qualified to make the call.

 

I assume if you ran across a broken rail while operating at restricted speed your not going to trust to luck and hope the entire train makes it across the break ?

 

Randy

 

You're correct.  But under most circumstances,  a crew isn't going to be deep trouble if the train derails because of a broken rail they didn't see, even if they are running restricted. 

[Randy Stahl]

Agreed.

[efftenxrfe]

High marks, stratospheric, for this forum group. Track, always thru my 42 year operating employee/officer career, was in the realm of wizardy. I learned a lot so far; keep it coming, please, track professionals.

Two little episodes: Around Richmond running No 711 into town, I hear on the radio, in fact the savior of the torpedo-boat SP 5623, GP9, say there's a piece of the westbound main track accross from Colgate (the industry spur)  broken.

After the Berkeley stop (ok, Berkeley University Ave) Errol Ohman's and no others prompted caution.

Found it! About 18 inches of the ball of the rail broke. I picked it up and have it in my garage.

My Condr that day guided the train over the break and we got into Oakland 16th st nearly on time. I was 15 minutes ahead of the rescue time in the schedule.

The next happening: While the application of the train air brakes and release on an 8500 feet long train can be inspected by the condr walking/inspecting an 8500' train and then walking both 8500' sides to insure proper air brake release operation.

While hearing a couple of trains get permission to pass red (absolute) stop signals at Niles Tower, ahead of us.

Early dusk happened,  my engine, our train, curved hard left, a ten mile an hour curve with permission to pass the red signal.....

And there was a rail joint, sparkling sharp glare from a break with no angle bars holding the joint.

I decided to sustain the slack condition thru the train length

I got the train thru it. I reported I saw no problems that there was a shiny spot on the rail between the....

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

Thomas 9011

You can repair a broken rail rather easily. You need a new section of rail ( this can be as short as 3 feet), a gas powered cut off saw, and a track drill to drill a few holes. You simply cut out the broken section with a cut off saw, insert the new rail, drill holes for the joints, tighten the joint down, and drive in a few spikes. You could probably do the whole process in around 45 minutes depending on how long the rail is. You can also do this process with just a cutting torch by cutting the bad rail out, inserting the new rail and then cutting out holes with the torch in the new rail for the joint bolts. It's a little more sloppy but it works just as good. . . . 

 To get all that gear to a location - other than right next to a roadway - would take a pick-up truck, and at least 2 persons.  It's not that much more difficult to get a hi-rail boom truck with a rail rack and a proper piece of rail and the same tools to the spot to do a much better repair. 

If the rail break is anything other than a clean vertical break, I'd be concerned about further shattering of the rest of that rail under load, even at restricted speed - that's an indication the metallurgy might be so seriously flawed that could happen (and has).  If it is just a clean vertical break, then one of the rail clamp type of temporary joint bars would be the best expedient. 

"+1" to most of mudchicken's comments, esp. about the cutting torch.   

- Paul North. 

[erikem]

mudchicken

To start with, torch cut anything in a main track is a bozo no-no  49CFR213.122 in anything  above Class 2 track. Torch cut joints or bolt holes in UP's and BNSF's Chief Engineer's instructions is forbidden. (Remember - FRA rules are minimum standard)....welders are being discouraged from including torch cuts in thermite/boutet welds for fear of occlusions, voids and poor metallurgy - boutet welds are predictably failing (and driving welding supervisors nuts - hopefully the d-car finds the defect first.).

One of he memories of being a track troll at OERM was taking out the torch cut rail (both ends and bolt holes) and replacing them with rails saw cut to length and drilled holes (the old rail drill we used was kinda funky). The cut-off wheel rail saws were a treat, and quickly picked moving the saw back and forth to keep the metal from getting too hot - red hot metal doesn't cut as well.

I do have a question about "a code 1", presumably an FRA enforcement action.

- Erik

[mudchicken]

$10K+ fine (against the individual or company or both) = Code 1 Violation

[John WR]

Gee Mud Chicken, can't you lighten up a little.  I've never worked for a railroad but I know perfectly well all these government rules are made to be avoided and no one anywhere ever carries them out.  I mean, with a little creativity anyone can always fake it.  Isn't that the way we all live?

[BaltACD]

Scariest thing about broken rails is that most of them are discovered by track or signal personnel checking out a track occupancy light left on by a train that was operating through the track segment at track speed(ie. the break occured while the train was continuing to pass over the break).  In most cases trains will continue to operate through the track segment in accordance with the appropriate rules for entering the particular track segment - most likely those rules will authorize trains to operate at Restricted Speed . 

Considering that the carriers no longer have Signal Maintainers or Track Gangs stationed every 10 to 15 miles as they did in days gone by, if someone shows up within two hours from notification you have had a speedy response.  It is not uncommon for 3 or more trains to operate through the track circuit without any of them reporting having observed a broken rail, a broken rail subsequently found by a Signal Maintainer or Track Inspector.  On my carrier Signal Maintainers have been given training and have been 'qualified' as a track inspector so that they can 'walk trains' over broken rails they have found (despite the training and qualification they rarely do so - when a genuine Track Inspector shows up, they will frequently walk trains over breaks that the Signal Maintainers would not).

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

John WR

Gee Mud Chicken, can't you lighten up a little.  I've never worked for a railroad but I know perfectly well all these government rules are made to be avoided and no one anywhere ever carries them out.  I mean, with a little creativity anyone can always fake it.  Isn't that the way we all live?

These rules are there for a reason.  It's also obvious that the mudchicken is a very strong believer in "Safety First".  One does not fake it on safety-related issues.

[zugmann]

John WR

Gee Mud Chicken, can't you lighten up a little.  I've never worked for a railroad but I know perfectly well all these government rules are made to be avoided and no one anywhere ever carries them out.  I mean, with a little creativity anyone can always fake it.  Isn't that the way we all live?

(emphasis mine, zug).

yeah it kind of shows. There isn't much tolerance for not following rules/federal law out here.  Esp. on track conditions.

[Murphy Siding]

John WR

Gee Mud Chicken, can't you lighten up a little.  I've never worked for a railroad but I know perfectly well all these government rules are made to be avoided and no one anywhere ever carries them out.  I mean, with a little creativity anyone can always fake it.  Isn't that the way we all live?

  I'm trying to read this, as if you're being sarcastic, and it just didn't have the effect you thought it would.  There is no reason for anyone to "lighten up" a little about safety.

[Thomas 9011]

It seems every time we have these discussions involving technical issues, suddenly everyone is a expert in what we are talking about. But as we all know most of the people who claim to know what they are talking about usually don't  have any railroad experience or if they did have railroad experience it was 25 years ago.

Since I am a information junkie, I decided to go right to the source of these rules and regulations and went to the official FRA website and looked up the codes and regulations which were actually very well up to date and found them very interesting. I actually learned many new things about rail defects and was pleased with the numerous photos included.

If someone can make this link active I would appreciate it since I don't know how to do it. You can also just copy and paste it into your browser.

http://www.fra.dot.gov/eLib/details/L04206