To paraphrase Edgar K.B. Montrose:
"If you place your charges right, you get your spikes in one pile, ties in another and short rail segments in a third."
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
Thomas 9011 As someone who has spent most of career my as a welder and fabricator, I have extensive knowledge of metals and their properties. I never accused Mudchicken of not understand right of way engineering. I said that one of the ways of repairing a broken rail is cutting it out with a torch and inserting another piece of rail. The responses to my comment were negative and inaccurate One of his responses was.. "Do that on any railroad around me and you're fired. Then the FRA comes looking for you with a laundry list of Code 1's. Hope you have a deep bank account. Wrong on so many levels.." I posted the FRA rules concerning the use of torch cut rail, and what we found is that it is permissible and allowed on all tracks with a freight speed of up to 25mph and a passenger speed up to 30mph. That would include most of your yards (including class ones), mainlines with speeds up to 25mph, and most of your industries and spurs. We are talking tens of thousands of miles or track here. To say I was wrong on so many levels is inaccurate. Mudchickens response of " torch cut anything in a main track is a bozo no-no". Considering there is mainlines all over this country that run freight under 25 mph (such as your shortlines) torch cut rail is allowed and that statement is false.
As someone who has spent most of career my as a welder and fabricator, I have extensive knowledge of metals and their properties.
I never accused Mudchicken of not understand right of way engineering. I said that one of the ways of repairing a broken rail is cutting it out with a torch and inserting another piece of rail. The responses to my comment were negative and inaccurate One of his responses was.. "Do that on any railroad around me and you're fired. Then the FRA comes looking for you with a laundry list of Code 1's. Hope you have a deep bank account. Wrong on so many levels.."
I posted the FRA rules concerning the use of torch cut rail, and what we found is that it is permissible and allowed on all tracks with a freight speed of up to 25mph and a passenger speed up to 30mph. That would include most of your yards (including class ones), mainlines with speeds up to 25mph, and most of your industries and spurs. We are talking tens of thousands of miles or track here. To say I was wrong on so many levels is inaccurate.
Mudchickens response of " torch cut anything in a main track is a bozo no-no". Considering there is mainlines all over this country that run freight under 25 mph (such as your shortlines) torch cut rail is allowed and that statement is false.
So, who is correct here? Is it a bozo no-no or not?
I would defer to the mudchicken's knowledge and expertise in these matters.
Thomas has brought up the subject of thermite welds a couple of times. I think it would be interesting for someone in the know to discuss the subject.
I have never worked for a railroad, and my knowledge of metallurgy is next to nothing, but I have seen a couple of thermite welds in progress, and as I recall, the rail was heated at some length with a sort of portable furnace before the thermite was applied. Is it because there is no sharp hot/cold boundary in the steel (as there would be with a cutting torch) that internal stresses are avoided?
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
zardoz edblysard That’s odd…I read the entire thing, and I didn’t find anywhere in there where it said I can’t use dynamite to remove rail spikes… Or small thermonuclear devices....
edblysard That’s odd…I read the entire thing, and I didn’t find anywhere in there where it said I can’t use dynamite to remove rail spikes…
That’s odd…I read the entire thing, and I didn’t find anywhere in there where it said I can’t use dynamite to remove rail spikes…
Johnny
Regarding thermite welds: Yes, a critical part of the process is the pre-heating (essentially with a cutting torch, ironically enough, but not with as intense a heat level), and then - since the whole area gets red-hot - the cooling afterwards occurs at a controlled rate.
Welding to build-up worn areas of the rail head is limited to a small location, and limited amounts of heat input. It too gets quite hot - there's no putting your hand on either of these locations immediately afterwards ! But since it's only the rail head involved, the rate of cooling willl be fairly slow. Afterwards, the welded area is usually 'peened' flat with a hammer, either manually or an air-operated one. Then, the head of the rail in either type of weld is also ground flat - and most importantly, smooth - so that there are no ridges or grooves that could cause 'stress risers' or be the start of a crack that propagates into a break.
None of these precautions are usually taken with a torch-cut rail, which may be why they're so prone to later breakage.
- Paul North.
Paul of Covington Thomas has brought up the subject of thermite welds a couple of times. I think it would be interesting for someone in the know to discuss the subject.
I was expecting somebody to take this up in detail, but it has not happened yet. So I'll jump-start things with this downloadable .pdf file:
http://www.arema.org/files/library/1999_Conference_Proceedings/00059.pdf
(Anybody feel free to make this link clickable...)
RME
Overmod http://www.arema.org/files/library/1999_Conference_Proceedings/00059.pdf
"THERMITE RAIL WELDING: HISTORY, PROCESS DEVELOPMENTS, CURRENT PRACTICES AND OUTLOOK FOR THE 21st CENTURY" (18 pages, approx. 166 KB electronic file size)
by C. P. Lonsdale, Metallurgical Engineer
Conrail Technical Services Laboratory, Altoona, PA 16601
You aren't supposed to flame cut structural holes either, or weld directly over a flame cut without grinding to clean metal, even with forgiving metal like A36 steel. As a welder / fabricator, you should know this.
Rail steel isn't just mild steel, it is much less forgiving of imperfections. And that is the key. Flame cutting holes or a rail end introduces lots of microscopic imperfections and rough surfaces that are perfect locations for cracks to start. This can lead to failure very quickly where loads reverse four times from full to none every time a car passes. Throw in axial tension / compression from temperature and things get severe in a hurry.
I don't work for a railroad, I just have a degree in Metallurgical Engineering, so I would defer to people like Mudchicken on this, but I can certainly see exactly why there should be no flame cutting of rail. As someone once said, those rules are written in blood.
Bucyrus Thomas 9011 As someone who has spent most of career my as a welder and fabricator, I have extensive knowledge of metals and their properties. I never accused Mudchicken of not understand right of way engineering. I said that one of the ways of repairing a broken rail is cutting it out with a torch and inserting another piece of rail. The responses to my comment were negative and inaccurate One of his responses was.. "Do that on any railroad around me and you're fired. Then the FRA comes looking for you with a laundry list of Code 1's. Hope you have a deep bank account. Wrong on so many levels.." I posted the FRA rules concerning the use of torch cut rail, and what we found is that it is permissible and allowed on all tracks with a freight speed of up to 25mph and a passenger speed up to 30mph. That would include most of your yards (including class ones), mainlines with speeds up to 25mph, and most of your industries and spurs. We are talking tens of thousands of miles or track here. To say I was wrong on so many levels is inaccurate. Mudchickens response of " torch cut anything in a main track is a bozo no-no". Considering there is mainlines all over this country that run freight under 25 mph (such as your shortlines) torch cut rail is allowed and that statement is false. So, who is correct here? Is it a bozo no-no or not?
Oh yeah - likewise, why else do you suppose the structural alloy steel shape frames (usually channels or I's, etc.) of lots of truck-tractors have stickers on them that say something to the effect of:
"DO NOT WELD FRAME" or "Warning: Frame Rails are Heat Treated, Do not Weld or Drill"
See: http://forums.aths.org/PrintTopic89102.aspx
and http://ratrodsrule.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6613
RedoreI don't work for a railroad, I just have a degree in Metallurgical Engineering, so I would defer to people like Mudchicken on this, but I can certainly see exactly why there should be no flame cutting of rail. As someone once said, those rules are written in blood.
So are you saying that no torch cutting is allowed?
Bucyrus RedoreI don't work for a railroad, I just have a degree in Metallurgical Engineering, so I would defer to people like Mudchicken on this, but I can certainly see exactly why there should be no flame cutting of rail. As someone once said, those rules are written in blood. So are you saying that no torch cutting is allowed?
Unlimited torch cutting is allowed in scrap yards!
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
In my time as a trackman on Chessie System the only time we used a torch was on a "sun kink", where the rail kinked due to heat expansion. We used a torch because a rail saw would jam due to the heat expanding the rail. Then the rail is put back in gauge, spiked and angel bars installed. The resulting joint was welded asap, usaly the next day. A slow order was in place till it was repaired proplerly. A rail dril was used to make the holes for the bar bolts. Only 4 were used, the holes next to the rail ends were never drilled to avoid cracks and so as not to interfear with the weld. We cut a lot of things with a torch, but not rails!
That would be my two cents.
Tim
Paul of Covington Thomas has brought up the subject of thermite welds a couple of times. I think it would be interesting for someone in the know to discuss the subject. I have never worked for a railroad, and my knowledge of metallurgy is next to nothing, but I have seen a couple of thermite welds in progress, and as I recall, the rail was heated at some length with a sort of portable furnace before the thermite was applied. Is it because there is no sharp hot/cold boundary in the steel (as there would be with a cutting torch) that internal stresses are avoided?
This is correct. When welding thick steel pre-heating is required. Since the thermite metal is approx 2500 degrees and the rail is probably 75 degrees, it would have little bonding effect. This would be similar to just pouring hot metal on a piece of I beam and expecting it to stick after it cooled. What little penetration into the metal (if any) could probably be knocked off with a hammer.
You would also have to pre-heat the rail before you welded it with a arc welder. Thick metals absorbs heat in a big way. After welding the rapid heat loss could crack a weld due to the quick contraction of the rail (heat expands metal). Since the weld is still hot it would be subject to pulling forces both to the left and right at the same time which is gradually cooling. Preheating puts enough heat in the area to stop the rapid cooling and allowing the weld to cool off gradually.
The cutting torch is having really no effect on the metal because you are heating just a 1/4" section to start the cut. Once the cut starts you are moving the torch from top to bottom. It only takes around 30 seconds to cut a piece of rail in half with the torch. 30 seconds of heat isn't going to do anything to that rail including making it expand. A similar experiment would be to take a torch to a cold rail and just move the head from top to bottom with out making a cut for 30 seconds. I think you would get a a lot of laughs from everyone who was watching you if you claimed that you changed the dynamics of that rail. I doubt if that rail would even be warm.
I'm going with what Mudchicken and Rikers Yard said.
They don't contradict what the FRA says, and they certainly have to voice of experience when it comes to real-life, on-line track work.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
No one has mentioned that cutting with a torch is one cause of Hydrogen Embrittlement. One of the primary elements in the fuel of a torch is hydrogen and it does not all get oxygenated in the burning process that is producing the heat. The excess hydrogen diffuses into the steel leaving cavities that are pressurized by the hydrogen and lead to embrittlement (less ductiltity).
The rest of the rail is such a heat sink that the hydrogenated metal cools too rapidly to release the hydrogen, thus the torch, being the only source of heat, cannot be removed to remove the source of hydrogen so the metal can release the hydrogen while still in a liquid state (a "no-win" situation).
tree68 I'm going with what Mudchicken and Rikers Yard said. They don't contradict what the FRA says, and they certainly have to voice of experience when it comes to real-life, on-line track work.
Good lord. Have you read ANYTHING I posted regarding FRA rules? I keep stressing that the experts on these issues are the FRA. It is the FRA who writes these rules. The FRA has posted rules concerning the use of the cutting torch. It is acceptable, it is safe, it is allowed on three classes of track including tracks that carry passengers and hazardous chemicals. There is nothing written saying the cutting torch leads to cracks, flaws or other problems. There is nothing written about phasing out the cutting torch. There is nothing written discouraging the use of the cutting torch.
For those people who have worked for the railroad (and recently), you would know that the FRA rulebook is the absolute authority on these issues. The FRA rulebook must be in your possession at all times while on duty on the railroad.
The opinions of some of these members who claim to be experts in this forum giving misleading, and false information contrary to what the FRA claims just makes them look dumb. Do you really believe you are going to tell the FRA some information that they don't already know? Who am I going to give more credibility to? Joe nobody on some trains forums? Or the FRA?
I also think people do not realize that there are others on these forums who have extensive railroad knowledge and experience but do not feel the need to brag about. I was able to quickly point out what is legal and acceptable and what is not because I have been around railroads my entire life. I know current rules and regulations and I get my information from current rules and regulations. My information does not come from what I did 35 years ago.
I am sure there has been far more people killed and injured listening to what some so called expert claims then what the actual FRA rule book says.
Thomas 9011 For those people who have worked for the railroad (and recently), you would know that the FRA rulebook is the absolute authority on these issues. The FRA rulebook must be in your possession at all times while on duty on the railroad.
I have to call you on that one.
I don't now, nor have I ever carried the "FRA Rulebook" in my grip. I am not required by anyone to have the "FRA Rulebook" in my possession when I am on duty.
The FRA "rules" you seem to be speaking of are those regulations contained in 49CFR (Code of Federal Regulations). There are sections within those regulations that deal with a number of different aspects of railroading (the 200 series). 49CFR213 deals with track. 49CFR240 has to do with the certification of Engineers, while 49CFR242 deals with conductors, f'rinstance.
Since I'm the supervisor of conductors on my railroad, I have 49CFR242 in my available resources, but I don't carry it in my grip.
I am required to have an up-to-date copy of the NORAC rules in my possession, amongst other documents. What I carry is subject to inspection at any time (part of my job as well), to include appropriate timetables, bulletin orders, etc.
Much of the NORAC rulebook is based on the 49CFR200 series, as is every railroad's rulebook.
But I do not carry the "FRA Rules" while I'm working.
As for "because the rulebook says you can," that doesn't mean that you have to. As has been stated here, the railroads have found that the best practice is to avoid cutting the rail with a torch. That the FRA rules allow the practice doesnt mean the railroads have to employ it.
As a fire chief, every winter I deal with people who think that because the speed limit sign says 55 MPH, that they can drive that fast on snow and ice covered roadways.
Track type
Freight train
Passenger
Excepted [us 1]
<10 mph (16 km/h)
not allowed
Class 1
10 mph (16 km/h)
15 mph (24 km/h)
Class 2
25 mph (40 km/h)
30 mph (48 km/h)
Class 3
40 mph (64 km/h)
60 mph (97 km/h)
Class 4 [us 2]
80 mph (129 km/h)
Class 5 [us 3]
90 mph (145 km/h)
Class 6
110 mph (177 km/h)
Class 7 [us 4]
125 mph (201 km/h)
Class 8 [us 5]
160 mph (257 km/h)
Class 9 [us 6]
200 mph (322 km/h)
§ 213.122 Torch cut rail.
(a) Except as a temporary repair in emergency situations no rail having a torch cut end shall be used in Classes 3 through 5 track. When a rail end is torch cut in emergency situations, train speed over that rail end shall not exceed the maximum allowable for Class 2 track. For existing torch cut rail ends in Classes 3 through 5 track the following shall apply—
(1) Within one year of September 21, 1998, all torch cut rail ends in Class 5 track shall be removed;
(2) Within two years of September 21, 1998, all torch cut rail ends in Class 4 track shall be removed; and
(3) Within one year of September 21, 1998, all torch cut rail ends in Class 3 track over which regularly scheduled passenger trains operate, shall be inventoried by the track owner.
(b) Following the expiration of the time limits specified in paragraphs (a)(1), (2), and (3) of this section, any torch cut rail end not removed from Classes 4 and 5 track, or any torch cut rail end not inventoried in Class 3 track over which regularly scheduled passenger trains operate, shall be removed within 30 days of discovery. Train speed over that rail end shall not exceed the maximum allowable for Class 2 track until removed.
Federal Railroad Administration, DOT Pt. 213, App. B
APPENDIX B TO PART 213—SCHEDULE OF CIVIL PENALTIES
Section Violation Willful Violation
1
Subpart A—General:
213.4(a) Excepted track 2 ............................................................................................... $2,500 $5,000
213.4(b) Excepted track 2 ............................................................................................... 2,500 5,000
213.4(c) Excepted track 2 ................................................................................................ 2,500 5,000
213.4(d) Excepted track 2 ............................................................................................... 2,500 5,000
213.4(e):
(1) Excepted track ............................................................................................ 5,000 7,500
(2) Excepted track ............................................................................................ 7,000 10,000
(3) Excepted track ............................................................................................ 7,000 10,000
(4) Excepted track ............................................................................................ 5,000 7,500
213.4(f) Excepted track ................................................................................................... 2,000 4,000
213.7 Designation of qualified persons to supervise certain renewals and inspect
track ............................................................................................................................. 1,000 2,000
213.9 Classes of track: Operating speed limits .............................................................. 2,500 2,500
213.11 Restoration or renewal of track under traffic conditions .................................... 2,500 2,500
213.13 Measuring track not under load .......................................................................... 1,000 2,000
Subpart B—Roadbed:
213.33 Drainage ............................................................................................................. 2,500 5,000
213.37 Vegetation ........................................................................................................... 1,000 2,000
Subpart C—Track Geometry:
213.53 Gage ................................................................................................................... 5,000 7,500
13.55 Alinement .............................................................................................................. 5,000 7,500
213.57 Curves; elevation and speed limitations ............................................................. 2,500 5,000
213.59 Elevation of curved track; runoff ......................................................................... 2,500 2,500
213.63 Track surface .................................................................................................................... 5,000 7,500
Subpart D—Track surface:
213.103 Ballast; general ................................................................................................. 2,500 5,000
213.109 Crossties
(a) Material used .............................................................................................. 1,000 2,000
(b) Distribution of ties ....................................................................................... 2,500 5,000
(c) Sufficient number of nondefective ties ........................................................ 1,000 2,000
(d) Joint ties ...................................................................................................... 2,500 5,000
(e) Track constructed without crossties ........................................................... 2,500 5,000
213.113 Defective rails ................................................................................................... 5,000 7,500
213.115 Rail end mismatch ............................................................................................ 2,500 5,000
213.118 Continuous welded rail plan (a) through (e) ..................................................... 5,000 7,500
213.119 Continuous welded rail plan contents (a) through (k) ...................................... 5,000 7,500
213.121 (a) Rail joints ..................................................................................................... 2,500 5,000
213.121 (b) Rail joints ..................................................................................................... 2,500 5,000
213.121 (c) Rail joints ..................................................................................................... 5,000 7,500
213.121 (d) Rail joints ..................................................................................................... 2,500 5,000
213.121 (e) Rail joints ..................................................................................................... 2,500 5,000
213.121 (f) Rail joints ...................................................................................................... 2,500 5,000
213.121 (g) Rail joints ..................................................................................................... 2,500 5,000
213.121 (h) Rail joints ..................................................................................................... 5,000 7,500
213.122 Torch cut rail ..................................................................................................... 2,500 5,000
213.123 Tie plates .......................................................................................................... 1,000 2,000
213.127 Rail fastenings .................................................................................................. 2,500 5,000
213.133 Turnouts and track crossings, generally .......................................................... 1,000 1,000
213.135 Switches:
(a) through (g) .................................................................................................. 2,500 5,000
(h) chipped or worn points ............................................................................... 5,000 7,500
213.137 Frogs ................................................................................................................. 2,500 5,000
213.139 Spring rail frogs ................................................................................................ 2,500 5,000
213.141 Self-guarded frogs ............................................................................................ 2,500 5,000
213.143 Frog guard rails and guard faces; gage ........................................................... 2,500 5,000
Subpart E—Track appliances and track-related devices:
213.205 Derails ............................................................................................................... 2,500 5,000
Subpart F—Inspection:
213.233 Track inspections .............................................................................................. 2,000 4,000
213.235 Switches, crossings, transition devices ............................................................ 2,000 4,000
213.237 Inspection of rail ............................................................................................... 2,500 5,000
213.239 Special inspections ........................................................................................... 2,500 5,000
213.241 Inspection records ............................................................................................ 1,000 1,000
Subpart G—High Speed:
213.305 Designation of qualified individuals; general qualifications .............................. 1,000 2,000
213.307 Class of track; operating speed limits .............................................................. 2,500 5,000
213.309 Restoration or renewal of track under traffic conditions .................................. 2,500 5,000
213.311 Measuring track not under load ........................................................................ 1,000 2,000
213.319 Drainage ........................................................................................................... 2,500 5,000
213.321 Vegetation ......................................................................................................... 1,000 2,000
VerDate
The Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) is the codification of the general and permanent rules and regulations (sometimes called administrative law) published in the Federal Register by the executive departments and agencies of the federal government of the United States.
The CFR is published by the Office of the Federal Register, an agency of the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA).
The CFR is divided into 50 titles that represent broad areas subject to Federal regulation.
Hopefully Thomas understands what exempt, class1 and class 2 track is…
From his post of 01/17…
I would like to correct you here, exempt, class 1 and class 2 track are three distinct and separate critters…
Excepted tracks are pretty much either abandoned or if used, you have to take a weed eater, machete and ax with you to remove the trees inside the gauge.
You also tote a re-rail frog, wood wedges, rail bolts and joint bars, wrenches and as much chain as you can get on the locomotives running boards, and a track jack or two plus shovels and pry bars.
Max speed is under 10 mph hour, and you would be both brave and lucky if you ran anywhere near that speed.
Exempt track may not have seen a train in years, they are often abandoned and left to rot because the railroad as a company no longer exists, maybe the owner has not found a customer to buy the property, or the railroad has one customer they serve on an as needed basis.
Basically, exempt track is one step away from total abandonment, if not actually abandoned already; maintenance isn’t an issue, because there isn’t any to begin with.
Class 1 and 2 track are those track belonging to the mom and pop railroads, you know, they ones that serve 1 or two customers once every day, the old lumber mill out in the boonies and the rock quarry.
Class 2 track means that is not just a possibility you will get on the ground, but a fact…somewhere at some point in time the track will give out…even though passenger traffic is allowed, most tourist operations don’t do well when the train falls down so they rarely allow their track to be less than class 3.
On class 1 track, if you’re lucky, every fifth or sixth tie has two spikes on each side holding the rail down, and every 6th tie isn’t beginning to rot.
On these railroads, the speed limits should be the tip off …because of the speeds, derailments are less likely to cause serious damage to the cars, and CWR with thermite welding isn’t a possibility to begin with, way out of their cost range.
Most class 1 and 2 tracks are laid with second hand rail of varying weight.
If memory serves me, exempt track and class 1 may not carry any hazardous material, class 2 track no more than five cars of hazardous material.
Class 3 tracks are found on the smaller regional and local short lines, the ones that might serve a small industrial park, or a few grain elevators, they may run two or three trains a day, they gather up cars which they interchange with other railroads, often at the host railroads yards.
Better than the mom and pop operations, but on tight budgets, if it ain’t broke and not in the budget, don’t fix it.
Most industrial tracks and leads in older plants and facilities are class 2 or 3 track.
Note that the CFR requires all torch cut rail be removed from class 3 through 5 tracks by Sept. 21, 1998.
The regulations themselves are laws, and most of them come with fairly stiff civil penalties for violations.
Thomas, the FRA didn’t write these laws; they are simply the agency that was created to and is charged with interpreting and enforcing them under administrative law..
The laws themselves were written by Congress, enabled under the U.S Code which precedes the CFR.
The FRA may recommend changes to or modifications of existing regulations, and can propose new regulations, which Congress may pass into law.
The CFR itself are the codes written out in detail for the various agencies charged with administering that particular part of the code, basically the instructions including details they are required to follow.
23 17 46 11
tree68 Thomas 9011 For those people who have worked for the railroad (and recently), you would know that the FRA rulebook is the absolute authority on these issues. The FRA rulebook must be in your possession at all times while on duty on the railroad. I have to call you on that one. I don't now, nor have I ever carried the "FRA Rulebook" in my grip. I am not required by anyone to have the "FRA Rulebook" in my possession when I am on duty. The FRA "rules" you seem to be speaking of are those regulations contained in 49CFR (Code of Federal Regulations). There are sections within those regulations that deal with a number of different aspects of railroading (the 200 series). 49CFR213 deals with track. 49CFR240 has to do with the certification of Engineers, while 49CFR242 deals with conductors, f'rinstance. Since I'm the supervisor of conductors on my railroad, I have 49CFR242 in my available resources, but I don't carry it in my grip. I am required to have an up-to-date copy of the NORAC rules in my possession, amongst other documents. What I carry is subject to inspection at any time (part of my job as well), to include appropriate timetables, bulletin orders, etc. Much of the NORAC rulebook is based on the 49CFR200 series, as is every railroad's rulebook. But I do not carry the "FRA Rules" while I'm working. As for "because the rulebook says you can," that doesn't mean that you have to. As has been stated here, the railroads have found that the best practice is to avoid cutting the rail with a torch. That the FRA rules allow the practice doesnt mean the railroads have to employ it. As a fire chief, every winter I deal with people who think that because the speed limit sign says 55 MPH, that they can drive that fast on snow and ice covered roadways.
When I worked for the Union pacific not having a rule book in your possession was grounds for termination. It didn't have to be under your arm but it better be somewhere you can get to rather quickly. I remember on several occasions having a FRA inspector visit our yard and telling us "show me your rulebook".
Semper Vaporo No one has mentioned that cutting with a torch is one cause of Hydrogen Embrittlement. One of the primary elements in the fuel of a torch is hydrogen and it does not all get oxygenated in the burning process that is producing the heat. The excess hydrogen diffuses into the steel leaving cavities that are pressurized by the hydrogen and lead to embrittlement (less ductiltity). The rest of the rail is such a heat sink that the hydrogenated metal cools too rapidly to release the hydrogen, thus the torch, being the only source of heat, cannot be removed to remove the source of hydrogen so the metal can release the hydrogen while still in a liquid state (a "no-win" situation).
Since thermite gets its heat from the combustion of aluminum, there is very little hydrogen produced to cause embrittlement of the steel.
I would wonder how much hydrogen gets introduced by flame cutting, with a highly oxidizing atmosphere, most of the free hydrogen would be rapidly turned into water. On the other hand, metal-water reactions (think Fukushima and to a much lesser extent, TMI) will release hydrogen and it is conceivable that may result in hydrogen getting into the steel.
I've seen several applications where flame cutting is the natural first choice, such as cutting steel plate as a first step in fabrication.
- Erik
Thomas 9011 tree68 Thomas 9011 For those people who have worked for the railroad (and recently), you would know that the FRA rulebook is the absolute authority on these issues. The FRA rulebook must be in your possession at all times while on duty on the railroad. I have to call you on that one. I don't now, nor have I ever carried the "FRA Rulebook" in my grip. I am not required by anyone to have the "FRA Rulebook" in my possession when I am on duty. The FRA "rules" you seem to be speaking of are those regulations contained in 49CFR (Code of Federal Regulations). There are sections within those regulations that deal with a number of different aspects of railroading (the 200 series). 49CFR213 deals with track. 49CFR240 has to do with the certification of Engineers, while 49CFR242 deals with conductors, f'rinstance. Since I'm the supervisor of conductors on my railroad, I have 49CFR242 in my available resources, but I don't carry it in my grip. I am required to have an up-to-date copy of the NORAC rules in my possession, amongst other documents. What I carry is subject to inspection at any time (part of my job as well), to include appropriate timetables, bulletin orders, etc. Much of the NORAC rulebook is based on the 49CFR200 series, as is every railroad's rulebook. But I do not carry the "FRA Rules" while I'm working. As for "because the rulebook says you can," that doesn't mean that you have to. As has been stated here, the railroads have found that the best practice is to avoid cutting the rail with a torch. That the FRA rules allow the practice doesnt mean the railroads have to employ it. As a fire chief, every winter I deal with people who think that because the speed limit sign says 55 MPH, that they can drive that fast on snow and ice covered roadways. When I worked for the Union pacific not having a rule book in your possession was grounds for termination. It didn't have to be under your arm but it better be somewhere you can get to rather quickly. I remember on several occasions having a FRA inspector visit our yard and telling us "show me your rulebook".
Yes, you have to have your rule book. The rule book the railroad uses, for the UP that's the General Code of Operating rules and for TE&Y the associated safety, air brake/train handling rules and haz mat instructions. For Tree, that's the NORAC book. You don't have to carry the CFR with you.
I also seriously doubt that you would be fired for not having your rule books with you, unless you have been habitually violating that requirement. A first time would probably get "coaching" event and you lose some points, even though the points aren't supposed to matter anymore.
Jeff
Seriously, you don’t know the difference between the CFR and a “rulebook”?
What exactly did you do for UP, and in what craft did you perform service?
By the way, the FRA doesn’t have a “rulebook” per se, although they may have an agency policy manual that instructs them in how to carry out their job, what they can and can’t do, and explains their limit of authority.
The rulebook you are referencing, for the UP, would be the GCOR, east of the Mississippi most railroads use the NORAC rulebook, and there is the Canadian rulebook, Canadian Rail Operating Rules, the CROR…
GCOR, NORAC and CROR are the three major rulebooks used in North America.
Again, the FRA doesn’t write rules, they can only enforce the administrative laws in the CFR
And the rules set forth in the above mentioned rulebooks.
They can and do propose changes to those laws, and have submitted recommendations to change or create new operating practices that have become law.
I will say that in some instances, folks do refer to the “FRA rules” simply because they don’t grasp the fact that the CFR are the “rules” the FRA enforces…its simpler and easier to call it the FRA rules…..
And by the way, the rule that covers the rulebook states you have to” have a rulebook available to you”, not in your possession…it’s hard as heck to switch cars or ride a shove toting a rulebook around with you.
Thomas 9011 I remember on several occasions having a FRA inspector visit our yard and telling us "show me your rulebook".
I remember on several occasions having a FRA inspector visit our yard and telling us "show me your rulebook".
What Jeff said. Emphasis on "railroad rule book." Not CFR.
Thomas 9011 The opinions of some of these members who claim to be experts in this forum giving misleading, and false information contrary to what the FRA claims just makes them look dumb. Do you really believe you are going to tell the FRA some information that they don't already know? Who am I going to give more credibility to? Joe nobody on some trains forums? Or the FRA?
How to make friends and influence people: Trains.com Forum edition?
seriously dude, we don't even know who YOU are. I'm hoping weren't just some conductor that thinks he is God of the "FRA books" whatever they are.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zugmann Thomas 9011 The opinions of some of these members who claim to be experts in this forum giving misleading, and false information contrary to what the FRA claims just makes them look dumb. Do you really believe you are going to tell the FRA some information that they don't already know? Who am I going to give more credibility to? Joe nobody on some trains forums? Or the FRA? How to make friends and influence people: Trains.com Forum edition? seriously dude, we don't even know who YOU are. I'm hoping weren't just some conductor that thinks he is God of the "FRA books" whatever they are.
zugmann I'm hoping weren't just some conductor that thinks he is God of the "FRA books" whatever they are.
I'm hoping weren't just some conductor that thinks he is God of the "FRA books" whatever they are.
Gee, zug, I didn't know you were a Kipling fan, too.
Thomas 9011 When I worked for the Union pacific not having a rule book in your possession was grounds for termination. It didn't have to be under your arm but it better be somewhere you can get to rather quickly. I remember on several occasions having a FRA inspector visit our yard and telling us "show me your rulebook"
When I worked for the Union pacific not having a rule book in your possession was grounds for termination. It didn't have to be under your arm but it better be somewhere you can get to rather quickly. I remember on several occasions having a FRA inspector visit our yard and telling us "show me your rulebook"
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Thomas 9011[snipped - PDN] The FRA has posted rules concerning the use of the cutting torch. It is acceptable, it is safe, it is allowed on three classes of track including tracks that carry passengers and hazardous chemicals. There is nothing written saying the cutting torch leads to cracks, flaws or other problems. There is nothing written about phasing out the cutting torch. There is nothing written discouraging the use of the cutting torch.
Or in Latin, a principle of interpretation often used for such legal standards:
"expressio unius est exclusio alterius" (Definition: "the expression of one thing is the exclusion of the other" - see: http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/E/ExpressioUniusEstExclusioAlterius.aspx )
Better yet, go find a real working trackman on any railroad, and ask them about using a cutting torch on a rail in other than emergency situations. Then come back and tell us - truthfully - exactly what he or she said, including the limitations, restrictions, and concerns.
Paul_D_North_Jr Better yet, go find a real working trackman on any railroad, and ask them about using a cutting torch on a rail in other than emergency situations. Then come back and tell us - truthfully - exactly what he or she said, including the limitations, restrictions, and concerns.
But would that not be a potential violation of the Kalmbach terms of service? Think of the children, or more precisely their delicate little ears!
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