daveklepperWas there any attempt by European creditors or their governments to force the USA government to meet Confederate depts?
Not only did Confederate debts go unpiad; there is also the issue of the Alabama claims. British ship builders built ships for the Confederate Navy. Those ships then went to France to be armed. Then at sea the titles were transferred to the Confederate Government. In many cases the officers on the ships were British Naval Officers on leave and even some of the men were British. These ships totally destroyed the American merchant marine fleet. The CSS Alabama was the worst of these. After the war America pursued the British Government for assisting the Confederacy. The British never admitted that they had done so but they did pay over $15 million in compensation for the Alabama claims.
I had forgotten the 14th. Thanks for the reminder.
I've read that Europeans, and especially the British, believed that Confederate cotton bonds would be honored regardless of who won the war. A lot of war supplies had been sold to the Confederacy and almost all of it was sold on credit. However, Schlimm is right: The creditors were SOL.
Those European creditors, private and government took a chance and bet on the wrong side. They were SOL and the 14th Amendment closed the book. on any debt repayment, including by any states of the CSA in 1868:
Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
It's probable that nobody ever tried. Read the 14th Amendment to the Constitution and you'll know why.
Was there any attempt by European creditors or their governments to force the USA government to meet Confederate depts?
Lest anyone get the wrong impression of my less-than-favorable opinion of "The Horse Soldiers", let me hasten to add that there's no such thing as a BAD John Wayne movie! Some are better than others of course, but no bad ones!
"Hi-ho, on we go, there's no such word as can't, we'll ride straight down to Hell and back for Ulysses Simpson Grant!"
Paul_D_North_Jrthe current issue has a photo essay on trolley museums in Pennnsylvania,
An early transit line was the Ponchartrain Railroad often called Smokey Mary. The line consisted of street cars drawn by a steam locomotive. It ran from 1830 to 1930 along Elysian Fields Avenue in New Orleans. The line started downtown at the Mississippi River and ran to Milneberg on the lake. It operated freight trains as well as street cars. It was operating during the time General Ben Butler was in charge of New Orleans.
zugmann John WR [snipped - PDN] . . . Lee saw the whole of the whole of the Shenandoah Valley lay waste by all of the fighting and how it impoverished all of the people living there. He believed that if he could march into the north and bring that kind of terror and destruction to the people they would demand that Lincoln make peace. He had hoped to go to Harrisburg but somehow the battle wound up at Gettysburg. The battle did not turn out as he planned. Emphasis mine - zug. Here's a good reason (or at least part of it) for that "somehow": http://www.pacivilwartrails.com/stories/tales/burning-the-wrightsville-bridge From what I have read, Gordon's brigade then went up to Gettysburg to join other forces.
John WR [snipped - PDN] . . . Lee saw the whole of the whole of the Shenandoah Valley lay waste by all of the fighting and how it impoverished all of the people living there. He believed that if he could march into the north and bring that kind of terror and destruction to the people they would demand that Lincoln make peace. He had hoped to go to Harrisburg but somehow the battle wound up at Gettysburg. The battle did not turn out as he planned.
Here's a good reason (or at least part of it) for that "somehow":
http://www.pacivilwartrails.com/stories/tales/burning-the-wrightsville-bridge
From what I have read, Gordon's brigade then went up to Gettysburg to join other forces.
*See: http://www.pa-mag.com/ - the current issue has a photo essay on trolley museums in Pennnsylvania, and the website has several links to railroad-related articles, events, links, etc.
- Paul North.
gsrrmanGeneral Grant got troops down the Mississippi past Vicksburg and cut it off completely. Two months after Grierson's raid Vicksburg did surrender.
As you point out, Vicksburg was starved into submission. And many other places were too.
When the British considered that it was impossible to mantain a colony that did not wish to be maintained as a colony they did not mean that it was impossible to use overwhelming force to get that colony to submit. Rather, they meant that if you did use such overwhelming force that you would leave a level of bitterness that ran so deep the colony would be of no value to you.
The British were correct in that the Civil War left the former Confederates deeply embittered. But the American south was not and never had been a colony. And at the beginning of the war no one expected it would last very long. Had the Union recognized the Confederacy's right to secede the country most likely would have become Balkanized as other parts seceded too. The United States would simply have ceased to exist.
The move "The Horse Soldiers" was a VERY fictionalized account of Girerson's raid, but the general premise of the movie are true. He moved from southern Tenessee through Newton's Station down to Baton Rouge, burning and destroying everying in his path, especially railraod equipment and infrastructure in order to help starve Vicksburg into submission. General Grant got troops down the Mississippi past Vicksburg and cut it off completely. Two months after Grierson's raid Vicksburg did surrender.
Firelock76The Corps of Engineers diverted the Yazoo River in 1903 to restore the old channel and shipping to the town
Left to nature the MIssissippi would be running down the Achafalaya River and would no longer go by New Orleans. The Army Corps of Engineers put a stop to that too.
schlimmGiven that Vicksburg was the home of Jeff Davis
Actually, Schlimm, Jeff Davis was never a fire eater either. In 1860 he made speeches in New England about why the Union was important and he strongly suggested the states wanting to secede should meet and act as one rather than seceding one at a time. His suggestion was, of course, rejected. However, when Mississippi did decide to secede he felt it was his duty to stand by his State. He did that and never looked back. Before the war Davis was one of the wealthiest men in the country. He lost everything, was reduced to very little and spent the last years of his life living on the charity of Sarah Dorsey, a wealthy woman who admired him.
Yes, Old Man River has made many changes in his course, usually shortening it (Mark Twain commented in his Life on the Mississippi to the effect that as the river keeps cutting loops off that, given time enough, it will be possible to stroll from St. Louis to New Orleans, or something like that. And, there were tales of steamboats being stranded away from the channel because the river bypassed loops that the boats were in.
If you look at a map of the course of the river, you will find such interesting things that parts of Mississippi are on the Arkansas side of the river, and parts of Arkansas are on the Mississippi side.
Johnny
OK, I didn't get my facts straight on this one, sorry. The Mississippi changed it's course in 1876 due to a flood, leaving the old course past the town a shallow channel. The Corps of Engineers diverted the Yazoo River in 1903 to restore the old channel and shipping to the town.
Which means in case there's ever a rematch between North and South Vicksburg's going to be in a hell of a lot of trouble again! Better start stockpiling MRE's folks, they sure beat "Rats-a-Roni"!
Vicksburg is still high above the Mississippi River:
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=vicksburg+ms&aq=0&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&sa=N&tab=wl
Given that Vicksburg was the home of Jeff Davis and a hotbed for the KKK and a place of activity of the paramilitary Red Shirts after the war, as well as the scene of the Vicksburg Massacre in which 50 to 300 blacks were killed, it seems odd to suggest that secession was unpopular.
Firelock76 A really sad fact is a number of years after the war the Mississippi changed it's course and no longer flows past Vicksburg at all, Vicksburg's an inland town now.
A really sad fact is a number of years after the war the Mississippi changed it's course and no longer flows past Vicksburg at all, Vicksburg's an inland town now.
When did the river change its course? In the middle 70's I was living in New Orleans and went on a camping trip. We stopped in Vicksburg and I recall walking down a cliff road to the river.
John, certainly I realize you didn't mean to comment on Vicksburg's politics, I just added what I did just for everyone's enjoyment and the sheer irony of the situation. Of course Vicksburg was a VERY strategic site at the time and was going to be a target of Union forces sooner or later.
Not only does "Ol' Man River" just keep rollin' along, he doesn't give two hoots about the affairs of man.
One of the other posters mention the Grierson Raid. A fun fact is the 1959 film "The Horse Soldiers" starring John Wayne and William Holden is based on the raid. The filmaker, John Ford, shot a lot of the film on location in the South, and the Jefferson Military Academy featured in the film is the actual school itself. Howver, a lot of the film is fictionalized and a bit of a disappointment, to me at least. It would have been better if the actual story was told.
Firelock76Vicksbug MS was NOT a secessionist stronghold, not by any means.
I didn't intend to comment on the political views of Vicksburg's people but rather to the fact that the city sits on a high bluff overlooking the Mississippi River and commands control of the river beneath it. Fairly early on in the war the Union won control of all of the Mississippi except for the part that rolled by Vicksburg. The Vicksburg and Jackson Railroad brought cotton to the city where it was loaded on steam boats for the journey down to New Orleans. It was the most important port city in the state of Mississippi.
In 1860 well over a million bales of cotton were shipped through the Port of Vicksburg. The African slaves working in the cotton fields in Vicksburg's hinterland created an extremely prosperous city. Vicksburg's business community rightly saw that the war would destroy their prosperity and opposed secession as long as they could but when Mississippi voted to secede they saw the writing on the wall.
Some interesting bits of Vicksburg trivia for everyone: Vicksbug MS was NOT a secessionist stronghold, not by any means. As a river port Vicksburgers knew scession was going to be bad for business in one way or another. Just how bad they had NO idea. Ironic how a non-secession town was left holding the bag in the worst possible way.
Vicksburg surrendered on July 4, 1863. Vicksburgers wouldn't celebrate Independance Day again until 1945.
Certainly John Pemberton wasn't the brightest star in the Confederate firmament. A very good artillery commander, he was promoted beyond his abilities. After the Vicksburg surrender and his exchange he reverted to the rank of colonel and finished the war as an artilleryman.
gsrrmanAnother great blow to the confederate railroads was Grierson's rail on Newton's Station, Mississippi In April and May 1863.
General John C. Pemberton had been given orders to defend Vicksburg at all costs. He understood his orders to mean he should not leave Vicksburg and sent relatively few men outside the city. This left Grant free to maraud all over the countryside. Jackson, MS was an important rail junction. Grant's men destroyed it and the rail line that supplied Vicksburg. Fortress Vicksburg became prison Vicksburg and the people were reduced to eating rats.
In July, when Pemberton surrendered, Grant wired Lincoln "The Father of Waters rolls unvexed to the sea."
Another great blow to the confederate railroads was Grierson's rail on Newton's Station, Mississippi In April and May 1863. He rode from southern Tenessee 600 miles to Baton Rouge, Louisiana with 1700 cavalry destroying all railroad infrastructure and supplies that he found. This included passenger, freight trains and supplies at Newton;s Station, Mississippi on his way south.
Firelock76was your ancestor Colonel Elmer Ellsworth, by any chance?
Indeed.
(Don't be fooled by sources that quote his name as "Elmer E. Ellsworth"; his name is Ephraim Elmer Ellsworth, and how it got turned around might be as interesting as how the Faust legend and printing got conflated... but doesn't change what his family named him...)
BTW, his approach to discipline was perhaps the strongest reason why 'suave' entered the language as a term implying stylishness and panache. The word only acquired desultory connotation later in its history...
schlimmMoltke became fascinated by railroads and he was one of the first directors of the Hamburg-Berlin railway. In 1843 published an article What Considerations should determine the Choice of the Course of Railways?
In the US, of course, things were rather different at the time. Although people were talking about secession in the 1840's little thought was given to government sponsorship of north south railways. The one notable exception was Stephen Douglas. He sponsored legislation in the 1850's to provide land grants for a north south transcontinental railroad and the bill passed. The Mobile and Ohio and the Illinois Central were built and connected with a car float at the Ohio River. Douglas also introduced the Kansas Nebraska Act and forced it though the Congress. His intent was to organize the Kansas Territory in order to build an east west transcontinental railroad. The unintended consequence was Bleeding Kansas, a local war between pro slavery and free soil groups. No railroad would get built until after the Civil War but on October 16, 1854 an unknown man spoke in Peoria against Nebraska, as the act was called. That speech was the first step on the road to the Whitehouse for Abe Lincoln.
Sir MadogMoltke, the mastermind behind Prussian military plans, quickly integrated railroads into his plans and urged the Prussian government to nationalize the private railroad systems, long before the Franco Prussian War (beginning 1848).
Prussia financed private railways starting in 1850: Königlich-Westfälische Eisenbahn-Gesellschaft (Royal Westphalian Railway Company) and the Preußische Ostbahn (Prussian Eastern Railway). In 1875 it funded two more important new railways: Preußsische Nordbahn (Prussian Northern Railway) and the Marienfelde–Zossen–Jüterbog Military Railway. Prussia nationalized the railways within Prussia only in 1880, but the separate companies were independently managed. Not until 1920 were all the railways in Germany (primarily the royal railways of Bavaria, Baden, Wuertemberg, and Saxony) nationalized into one company, Reichseisenbah, later Deutsche Reichsbahn. The Königlich Preußischen Eisenbahn-Verwaltung (KPEV) was a myth as a result of painting errors in Cologne.
Moltke became fascinated by railroads and he was one of the first directors of the Hamburg-Berlin railway. In 1843 published an article What Considerations should determine the Choice of the Course of Railways?
Certainly, von Moltke was no fool. He'd lived through the Napoleonic Wars (not as a veteran, he was too young, but he remembered) and had seen how Napoleon had played absolute hell with the Prussian Army, which in Frederick the Great's time had been considered the best in Europe, if not the world. After Fredericks death the army stagnated and didn't grow and learn with the times. Von Moltke wasn't going to let that happen again, hence his looking at new technologies like railroads and breech-loading firearms, and new military organizations like the Great General Staff that made mobilisations quick and efficient.
Von Moltke's greatest contribution? Probably the saying "No plan survives five minutes contact with the enemy!" Which means you'd better be flexible Jack, and don't stop thinking.
PS: Overmod, was your ancestor Colonel Elmer Ellsworth, by any chance?
Thanks for this fascinating insight about railroads and military plans in Europe in the mid 19th century, Ulrich.
Here in the US many in our national government saw the importance of railroads to national defense during the mid 19th century. That had no impact on eastern railroads as far as I know but by the 1840's there were people advocating western transcontinental railroads for that purpose. However, the political issue of slavery prevented any real action on transcontinental railroads.
What strikes me is that as early as 1848 Moltke and, I assume, other Prussians, saw the implications of railroads on classical Napoleanic war theory. Americans, north and south, seemed to have missed the train there.
Sir MadogFurthermore, no system had been put in place for military control of the railways, and officers simply commandeered trains as they saw fit. Sidings and marshalling yards became choked with loaded wagons, with nobody responsible for unloading them or directing them to the correct destination.
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
Victrola1 To what extent did the use of railroads in the U. S. Civil war effect military planners of the Franco Prussian War and World War 1?
To what extent did the use of railroads in the U. S. Civil war effect military planners of the Franco Prussian War and World War 1?
IIRC, the U.S. Civil War was the first war in which railroads played a strategic role in transporting troops and supplies. Moltke, the mastermind behind Prussian military plans, quickly integrated railroads into his plans and urged the Prussian government to nationalize the private railroad systems, long before the Franco Prussian War (beginning 1848).
The efficient employment of railroads was certainly one of the factors resulting in Germany winning that war.
At the outset of the Franco-Prussian War, 462,000 German soldiers concentrated flawlessly on the French frontier while only 270,000 French soldiers could be moved to face them, the French army having lost (or mislaid) 100,000 stragglers before a shot was fired through poor planning and administration.This was partly due to the peacetime organisations of the armies. Each Prussian Korps was based within a Kreis (literally "circle") around the chief city in an area. Reservists rarely lived more than a day's travel from their regiment's depot. By contrast, French regiments generally served far from their depots, which in turn were not in the areas of France from which their soldiers were drawn. Reservists often faced several days' journey to report to their depots, and then another long journey to join their regiments. Large numbers of reservists choked railway stations, vainly seeking rations and orders.
The effect of these differences was accentuated by the pre-war preparations. The Prussian General Staff had drawn up minutely detailed mobilization plans using the railway system, which in turn had been partly laid out in response to recommendations of a Railway Section within the General Staff. The French railway system, with multiple competing companies, had developed purely from commercial pressures and many journeys to the front in Alsace and Lorraine involved long diversions and frequent changes between trains. Furthermore, no system had been put in place for military control of the railways, and officers simply commandeered trains as they saw fit. Sidings and marshalling yards became choked with loaded wagons, with nobody responsible for unloading them or directing them to the correct destination.
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