First Nations protesters have stopped VIA service between Toronto-Ottawa and Toronto-Montreal for an indeterminate period of time, among other blockades in Canada this weekend.
http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/idle-no-more-protests-target-rail-service-border-crossings-1.1102263
Bruce
So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.
"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere" CP Rail Public Timetable
"O. S. Irricana"
. . . __ . ______
Buried in a story about other aspects of this ongoing protest is the news that the blockade of the VIA trains ended after midnight last night. VIA stated that about 1,000 passenger were affected.
It was interesting reading the columnists in the local right-wing paper today. I usually don't agree with them, but I think this is increasingly looking like a problem wanting a throw-more-money-at-it solution. These issues have been dragging on for 35 years, but in today's era of tight government money the old solution isn't very likely. Nobody has yet figured out what the new solution is going to look like, or when it will happen. So, I expect this is the type of railway related news we are going to see out of Canada for the next while.
Not being Canadian - what is the root problem that is being protested?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Balt
Root problem has to do with the dysfunctional constitutional, legal, economic and other relations which have existed for many years between the Federal Government (which is responsible for Indian Affairs....their term, not mine) and First Nations (aboriginal people). As Bruce also pointed out the previous 'solution' has been to throw money at the problem; however, as is usually the case this is little better than a band-aid and a mighty expensive one at that. At the root of the change will be IMHO an extensive overhaul of the Indian Act, the legislation which effectively administers most (if not all) aspects of First Nations lives, on or off reserve, and possibly also the Treaties (1-11) which were 'negotiated' in the C19th. To date, little in the way of significant change has occurred and the result is an increasingly dissatisfied grassroots, especially within the FN community and outside of FN leadership significantly, which has decided that peaceful protest is the only available and realistic way to go. It has expanded rapidly in the past couple of weeks (the Kingston Sub and Sarnia blockades are part of this protest, the Hunger strike of Chief Theresa Spence of Attawapiskat is another expression of this protest as well as is the protest re: the Northern Gateway pipeline to Kitimat BC) and has finally resulted in a meeting being called between the Prime Minister, the Minister of Indian Affairs and the Assembly of First Nations (the umbrella group which represents First Nations in Canada ). Usually these are pretty pro-forma and highly politicised affairs, however FN's have said that this time substantive and substantial progress must be made or the protests will continue.
As someone who worked for many years among FN's in Northern Canada (Yukon) I agree the relationship is badly flawed, even broken, and will require significant and substantial changes, legal constitutional and more, to be made. This is, again IMHO, a significant juncture in this sorry history of relationships. Hopefully something productive and life-giving for all concerned can result.
Time and genuine commitment by all concerned will be required. Violence such as was seen at Oka, Kanasitake and in your country Wounded Knee, SD will solve nothing. Everyone will lose....
The view from here.
Charlie
Chilliwack, BC
What do the protesters want?
Bucyrus
The answer to your question is generally contained in the first paragraph of my post above. I will enlarge for you as Balt's question did not concern specifics, rather root causes.....
Specifically they are matters such as:-constitutional and legal rights they do not currently have under the Indian Act (such as property rights which they do not currently have and other related matters)
-acknowledgement and further clarification of treaty rights, especially to their traditional territories and reserve lands, including subsurface mineral and other such rights.
-attached to this last item at least an equal voice with other stakeholders in environmental and regulatory issues which primarily concern shale gas drilling and fracking, dilbit pipeline rights of way on their traditional territories and reserve lands and the development (and profit sharing) of subsurface minerals (such as diamonds in the Attawapiskat case)
-the list goes on and is an eminently reasonable one.
A working knowledge of the RSC Indian Act (and whatever the US equivalent is) and other relevant legislation is helpful when discussing such matters in detail.
I hope this summary clarifies matters for you.
Hang on to your hats, boys! A Provincial Judge has just slammed the Ontario Provincial Police for not enforcing injunctions issued in CN's favour against First Nation protesters. Says future of law enforcement is in doubt!
http://home.mytelus.com/telusen/portal/NewsChannel.aspx?ArticleID=news/capfeed/national/21461231.xml&CatID=National
The plot thickens......
First Nations protesters are again blocking rail lines in what they are calling a "Day of Protest". Whether they will hold to this schedule is unclear.
The first blockade is at Tyendinaga Township, ON, between Belleville and Kingston, where CP and CN lines cross. It has disrupted VIA service between Toronto-Ottawa and Toronto-Montreal. Neither freight railway has made a comment about this yet.
CN has said their service in Manitoba has been stopped on their mainline after protesters blockaded a train at Portage-la-Prairie.
I won't post any links as this info is buried in much larger stories.
I just heard on the CBC noon radio that CN Skeena Sub was also blocked at Kitwanga, BC to a VIA passenger train just long enough for the blockade members to speak briefly (15 min they said) to the VIA passengers about why the blockade was in place there in the first place. They had contacted CN and VIA prior to doing so and informed them of what they were going to do.
lenzfamily Bucyrus The answer to your question is generally contained in the first paragraph of my post above. I will enlarge for you as Balt's question did not concern specifics, rather root causes..... Specifically they are matters such as:-constitutional and legal rights they do not currently have under the Indian Act (such as property rights which they do not currently have and other related matters) -acknowledgement and further clarification of treaty rights, especially to their traditional territories and reserve lands, including subsurface mineral and other such rights. -attached to this last item at least an equal voice with other stakeholders in environmental and regulatory issues which primarily concern shale gas drilling and fracking, dilbit pipeline rights of way on their traditional territories and reserve lands and the development (and profit sharing) of subsurface minerals (such as diamonds in the Attawapiskat case) -the list goes on and is an eminently reasonable one. A working knowledge of the RSC Indian Act (and whatever the US equivalent is) and other relevant legislation is helpful when discussing such matters in detail. I hope this summary clarifies matters for you. Charlie Chilliwack, BC
The Victor diamond mine near Attawapiskat spent $93 million on goods and services of which $49 million went to aboriginal services, the reserve got $32 million to supply goods and services, also $321 million in contracts were let within the community, this does not include the hundreds of millions of dollars sent to this reserve over the years by the Canadian Government, the residents are living in filthy shacks, no education, no social services because these benefits do not get to the people.
What they need up there is their own railroad.
Enough on this off-topic- - it's too controversial.
Hearing this as an outsider, these many grievances do seem quite broad and generalized. That suggests that working out these issues might be a long process. So why are the protesters suddenly stopping trains?
Bucyrus Hearing this as an outsider, these many grievances do seem quite broad and generalized. That suggests that working out these issues might be a long process. So why are the protesters suddenly stopping trains?
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Bucyrus these many grievances do seem quite broad and generalized. That suggests that working out these issues might be a long process. So why are the protesters suddenly stopping trains?
One First Nation leader has come right out and said he wants the leaders of businesses affected by delays to their rail shipments to bring pressure on the Prime Minister.
As of about 10 PM MST the protests in Ontario and Manitoba have ended, but there is no information, either way, that I can see about the situation in BC. Of course it is still two hours to their 11:00 News there, so anything could happen yet. It is all about getting the biggest media bang you can.
Tatans
Without getting too far off topic, and responding to you, the research I did from De Beers annual reports 2011 conflicts with your analysis. According to this report, direct spending by DeBeers in the communities located near the Snap Lake Mine NWT and the Victor Mine Ontario totaled approximately 5.5M. How and where these monies were spent was not detailed. The 49M you reference for aboriginal services is described as 'joint ventures with aboriginal partners' by the company. DeBeers does not detail the structure or purpose of these joint ventures, therefore who receives the financial benefit from these ventures is unknown through this source. I have no idea where the 32M to supply goods and services comes from, much less the 321M in contracts let within the community (I assume you refer to Attawapiskat in both cases). Neither is referenced in DeBeers Report to Society (Annual Report 2011).
Re: hundreds of millions spent....IAND has spent approximately 90M on direct financial support of the Attawapiskat Band since 2005, their accounting not mine, approximately 18M annually for all services. I assume you are familiar with the economics of utilities operation, provision of basic health and educational services as well as construction of any kind in areas such as this. 18M annually for all such operating costs and Capital Improvements especially, will be eaten up very quickly and quite likely is inadequate overall. As you are likely aware, the last Auditor General's Report by Sheila Fraser, was highly critical of IAND's financial practices and operation. There's plenty of blame to go around if it comes to that.
The Federal Court of Canada in August 2012 rescinded the Third Party Management imposed by IAND on Attawapiskat Band, describing it as 'unlawful'. The court's reasons are public knowledge. There is question about the band's fiscal management practices as the recent Deloitte Touch audit indicates. I will read this before commenting further about fiscal mismanagement, especially since 2008.
As far as building a railway from Cochrane north to service the mine, I assume you are aware of the wetland through which it would have to be built for much of its length. Some have described it as a bog and if one consults Google Earth I can't say I disagree. The Hudson Bay Railway to Churchill Manitoba comes to mind for the construction challenges that would be faced. The environmental assessments, never mind the costs of such construction are prohibitive. (BTW, Getting a power line in to the Victor Mine was an expensive project. The transmission line itself was and is a joint venture including the Attawapiskat, Kasechewan, Fort Albany and one other band.) I doubt the ROI would be attractive to any railway considering such a project .
I agree this is a controversial subject, however I respectfully suggest that we at least try to address it in a way which is less dismissive and more respectful of all concerned. If is decided we move on, that is fine too. The protest movements are continuing and it will be instructive for all of us to see what transpires.
Give First Nation what has become the US solution - Native American Gambling Casinos!
AgentKid One First Nation leader has come right out and said he wants the leaders of businesses affected by delays to their rail shipments to bring pressure on the Prime Minister.
That made me laugh.
Given the nature of railroading, most of those business leaders aren't even going to notice. About the only exception would be 'just in time' shipments. With terminal dwell times sometimes measured in days, a few hours of delay isn't even going to cause a ripple in the general scheme of things. If it doesn't get there today, it'll get there tomorrow. Business as usual.
Passenger service is another story, but the railroads are used to dealing with such interruptions there, too.
Is it legal in Canada to stop trains and close borders as part of a peaceful protest?
BaltACDGive First Nation what has become the US solution - Native American Gambling Casinos!
The Mashatuxet Pequots have a very successful casino called Foxwoods in northestern Connecticut. A reservation that used to be home to a very few and very poor members of the tribe is now very successful. Many tribe members have moved there and are now quite affluent.
If you want to go Amtrak Northeast Regional trains stop at New London where Amtrak provides a connecting bus to Foxwoods.
BucyrusIs it legal in Canada to stop trains and close borders as part of a peaceful protest?
Now that's the $64,000 question. Of course protests involving people on RR ROW's is trespassing, and they should be removed. But there was another First Nations protest at Ipperwash, ON in 1995 that blew up big time. What started as Police removing protesters turned into a siege/hostage situation with big time collateral damage and massive policing costs to restore order. There was a huge inquiry after that and the Police received a lot of the blame.
Since then Police have been reluctant to deal with protesters without court orders specific to each situation. And local Mayors are reluctant to tell their Police Departments to enforce the court orders because the local governments end up paying for a lot of extra costs not covered by insurance. That was why I mentioned the Mayor of Sarnia in one of my earlier posts and and the statement by the Judge in one of my more recent posts.
Enforcing the law is a fine thing until it starts to cost money. I'm not sure of the best way to get out of that mindset either.
Bucyrus Is it legal in Canada to stop trains and close borders as part of a peaceful protest?
You raise an interesting question re the legalities of the closing of borders and the stopping of trains.
It is unlawful to do so to the best of my knowledge; however as a peaceful protest or a demonstration, it likely approaches a legal grey area. As I understand these events from the media reports the protesters in many cases give advance notice of their intentions (How much is a question to which I do not know the answer. They did give advance notice to CN and VIA at Kitwanga. The blockade lasted 8 hours ultimately.) and described their actions as a demonstration, which probably would lead to a judgement call on the part of the authorities as to whether the blockade would be stopped. Also, I am quite certain, the optics of the situation are being calculated by both demonstrators and the federal government.
I am not sure whether they completely closed the Ambassador Bridge at Windsor/Detroit or at other border points. Again IIRC advance notice was given they intended to do so.
In Canada generally, from my viewpoint as an observer only, I would say that if the protest/demonstration remained peaceful, the disruption was not of an undue length and advance notice of some kind was given to the authorities the demonstration/protest would be allowed to proceed. I'm sure also that CN and VIA would have had input (indirectly at least) into whether it was necessary to take the blockade down. How disruptive the blockade is would be part of their calculus I'm quite certain.
IMHO The Government of Canada is in a bit of a tight spot right now in this whole area so unless things get nasty or overlong at a blockade there is likely little appetite for causing riots, arrests and the resulting bad optics. At its heart this movement was originally an effort to get the federal government's attention and get some substantial progress forward on a variety of FN issues which I have discussed earlier. It does largely remain the same although change of tactics is, I suppose, a possibility.
I don't believe either side wants these actions to get out of hand. There is also significant public support for many of these actions, although not everyone agrees this is the way to go.
Railways are a part of the picture and as a result are often targetted. Border points are a bit more unusual.
Charlie,
I can understand your point of both sides playing the optics of this.
But is it a peaceful protest when it stops trains and interferes with commerce? These things amount to property damage. How can a peaceful protest result in property damage?
Bucyrus Charlie, I can understand your point of both sides playing the optics of this. But is it a peaceful protest when it stops trains and interferes with commerce? These things amount to property damage. How can a peaceful protest result in property damage?
Fair enough.
I'm not a lawyer but I expect that the answer to your question would revolve around the legal definition of property damage and its interpretation and exercise of remedy by the property owner (in this case, the Governments of Canada and Ontario/BC/Manitoba etc as well as the railways. In some cases FN's are challenging property ownership rights, relative to what they believe to be their treaty (land and other) rights, where such treaties exist. The treaties (1-11) don't exist everywhere in Canada which complicates things further. ) In each case the 'owner' appears to have been notified, thus IMHO putting the onus on them to press charges. Back to the optics again..
CN wasn't willing to do so in Sarnia although they did IIRC have an injunction against the yard blockade which IIRC they chose not to exercise. The Federal government as owner of the border crossings would be in a similar position IMHO. Got to go to court and get an injunction which would bring them back to optics.....
Again, I'm not a lawyer, but both 'businesses' (if I may put it that way) would be obliged to press charges. The optics at this point again come into play.
It appears neither are willing to do so, considering the optics, which as Bruce pointed out at Ipperwash, made mincemeat of the OPP and consequently the Government of Ontario. Nobody wants this or the Oka/Kanasetake (which did the Federal Government no good) debacle again.
As I've said before, this is a high stakes 'game' of sorts. FN's are starting to refuse to be ignored. They want substantive and productive steps forward to address their grievances.
The law in this case is a two edged sword, cutting both ways, for the railways, the governments involved and FN's.
The idle no more folks should put their new found industry to better use and perhaps find jobs....let's start an "idle no more because I have a job" movement.. Protesting and disruption is what babies do...its infantile and futile. Give me more...waaaa waaaa waaaa... I'm not happy...waaaa waaa... boo hoo. Everyone can participate in the electoral process and get themselves heard..no need to sabotage and disrupt others who are simply going about their business.
UlrichThe idle no more folks should put their new found industry to better use and perhaps find jobs.
"Find jobs?" What an outrageous thing to say. Obviously you don't understand North American culture.
We are ENTITLED!
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Murphy SidingPardon my framing it this way, but isn't that how terrorism works?
Pretty much. But in Canada we just do it very slowly, with minimal loss of life. As I mentioned in my last post, the mindset has to change, and someone has to take the bull by the horns and push this process forward. Each First Nation seems to have a different primary problem and they want a single solution specifically for them. And each side wants solutions that don't set up a precedent that would put them at a disadvantage in the future.
A columnist in the local right wing paper did get one thing right. At the present time there is no single FN leader who could clearly articulate the messages and get support on both sides of the issue. Without such a leader, the governments involved face a situation not unlike trying to put smoke in a box.
AgentKid Murphy SidingPardon my framing it this way, but isn't that how terrorism works? Pretty much. But in Canada we just do it very slowly, with minimal loss of life. As I mentioned in my last post, the mindset has to change, and someone has to take the bull by the horns and push this process forward. Each First Nation seems to have a different primary problem and they want a single solution specifically for them. And each side wants solutions that don't set up a precedent that would put them at a disadvantage in the future. A columnist in the local right wing paper did get one thing right. At the present time there is no single FN leader who could clearly articulate the messages and get support on both sides of the issue. Without such a leader, the governments involved face a situation not unlike trying to put smoke in a box. Bruce
I think you've summarized the overall picture well. I don't know if I would call the tactics terrorism. It really isn't that now IMHO but it most definitely is 'institutionalized obstinence' which is expressed in civil disobedience. The issues at play really are a Pandora's Box which governments know has long term political and financial consequences. However, the delays in addressing these issues and their attendant fragmentation have been going on for many decades....the sense of FN grievance has built up and thus covers a wide range of issues. Taking this bull by the horns will be a major challenge to Canadian governments and first nations. We're in for quite a ride....all of us.
Every story needs an ending and you won't believe how it turned out. CN can't believe it either.
http://www.calgarysun.com/2013/07/26/ignore-no-more
Wow.
I will be shocked if CN doesn't file a lawsuit...
NW
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