Bucyrus Murphy SidingThe "extra, un-needed reliability" (!?!) Is there because of a fear of lawsuits. Who in their right mind would come out and say that they are removing some of the perceived "extra" reliability in the name of cost cutting? The proposal is to REMOVE the liability, not to TRANSFER it to somebody else. If you remove the liability, there will be no lawsuits. If there are no lawsuits, there will be no fear of lawsuits. If there is no fear of lawsuits, there will be no reason to build in more quality than needed.
Murphy SidingThe "extra, un-needed reliability" (!?!) Is there because of a fear of lawsuits. Who in their right mind would come out and say that they are removing some of the perceived "extra" reliability in the name of cost cutting?
The proposal is to REMOVE the liability, not to TRANSFER it to somebody else. If you remove the liability, there will be no lawsuits. If there are no lawsuits, there will be no fear of lawsuits. If there is no fear of lawsuits, there will be no reason to build in more quality than needed.
And after we do that, we will all join hands and sing kumbaya?
Let's get back to reality. Too much money to be made in liability. It is not going anywhere.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
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If that's the case, why build in any reliability/quality at all?
Make the motorist responsible for his/her own actions and pull all the crossing protection except for, maybe, crossbucks.
[/sarcasm]
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Bucyrus When the report speaks making alternate components that are less reliable, it sounds like the public will be less protected. However, the premise of the report is that components are more reliable than they need to be. They clearly say that; and they give the reason why it is true. So I assume that when they talk about reducing reliability, they are only talking about trimming fat so to speak; and not suggesting a system that will have more incidents of failure-to-activate, or leave the public less protected than before the cost reduction.
When the report speaks making alternate components that are less reliable, it sounds like the public will be less protected. However, the premise of the report is that components are more reliable than they need to be. They clearly say that; and they give the reason why it is true.
So I assume that when they talk about reducing reliability, they are only talking about trimming fat so to speak; and not suggesting a system that will have more incidents of failure-to-activate, or leave the public less protected than before the cost reduction.
ANY safety product that is KNOWINGLY made less reliable is by definition less safe. I am sure you would jump at the chance to buy a vehicle whose air bags would operate 98% of the times they were needed 'on average', along with seat belts that only failed 2% of the time 'on average', and I am sure you would accept the liability claims that would result from all the savings from making the product less safe and reliable.
Ask Ford how all those savings from Pinto fuel tanks worked for them.
When it comes to safety, trimmed 'fat' is viewed as being making the product less safe. PERIOD
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
The "extra, un-needed reliability" (!?!) Is there because of a fear of lawsuits. Who in their right mind would come out and say that they are removing some of the perceived "extra" reliability in the name of cost cutting?
I just explained that there will not be any victims of failure due to the cost reduction because it is not intended to reduce the needed reliability. It only reduces the extra, un-needed reliability.
Reducing reliability isn't a factor until you're the victim of a failure.
At what point does that become acceptable?
schlimm BucyrusBut I would be amazed if the railroad industry would all jump on the bandwagon of “it can’t be done, so we are against it.” Call me cynical, Bucyrus, but IMO there is some other unspoken reason for the objections besides just that (or the supposed technical deficiencies of newer technologies).
BucyrusBut I would be amazed if the railroad industry would all jump on the bandwagon of “it can’t be done, so we are against it.”
Call me cynical, Bucyrus, but IMO there is some other unspoken reason for the objections besides just that (or the supposed technical deficiencies of newer technologies).
I would opine that with regard to tort reform, most folks have a lot of cynicism that such a measure could be successfully passed in this country, even though the same folks feel it's necessary. "When pigs fly."
Regarding the replacement technologies, even the report noted that a number of the suggested solutions were less than optimal, or, if made as reliable as existing technologies represented no cost savings.
I would further opine that without tort reform (or a law like that cited in Italy), there would be no change from the status quo possible.
If tort reform were enacted which limited or eliminated the liability of the railroad (and maybe the municipalities as well) then lesser forms of warning could easily be implemented, since they would be seen as an adjunct rather than the main form of crossing protection. As it stands now, the public expects to be "protected" from those big bad trains with little responsibility on themselves to take the appropriate action.
As has been alluded to in some of the above posts, the grade crossing liability issue is closely tied to tort reform. Several attempts at tort reform in various states have been passed by state legislatures, with the usual outcome being that such reform acts have been stricken as unconstitutional by the state Supreme Courts.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
I am not qualified to provide an answer as to whether or not the acceptance of liability can be changed. But I would be amazed if it is just a simple matter of doing it or not doing it. Not being able to say what is possible, I am also unable to say what is not possible. However, it does strike me as unreasonable to believe that the assumption of liability cannot be changed. Man made it, so man can change it.
From the report:
“For instance, Italian federal law holds that a grade crossing accident — any grade crossing accident between a roadway vehicle and a train — is the fault of the motorist. There is no room under this system for the case to be made that, while the motorist ignored the posted warning signs, there were good reasons he did so and the railroad is responsible for contributing to the conditions under which the accident occurred.”
If they can do this in Italy, I would not be surprised if we can do it too. I certainly don’t think it would be easy to get done. There would be a lot resistance.
But I would be amazed if the railroad industry would all jump on the bandwagon of “it can’t be done, so we are against it.”
If all it takes is to ban the specific liability for grade crossings, why not just pass that that ban tomorrow, and POOF! problem solved. In a similar vein, why don't we make the driver liable for damages caused by the vehicle he or she is driving? Wouldn't that put some responsibility on the driver to learn how to be safe around crossings?
No one is saying anybody would willingly accept liability. What was said was that the specific liability for grade crossings would be banned, as it has been in many nations. Observing the tortured rationales to dismiss this idea, I wonder if there is some largely unspoken agenda, perhaps the transfer of construction and maintenance to outside contractors?
Bucyrus Oh, I don’t think there is a magic wand. The only question I see is whether it is possible. I do not conclude that the fact that congress is made up of lawyers would preclude this from happening. They may have the interests of lawyers, but they also have larger callings that could be served by a national grade crossing program.
Oh, I don’t think there is a magic wand. The only question I see is whether it is possible. I do not conclude that the fact that congress is made up of lawyers would preclude this from happening. They may have the interests of lawyers, but they also have larger callings that could be served by a national grade crossing program.
Nobody is going to willingly accept liability. So long as liability is in question it becomes a tort question and no lawyer is going to refuse to go for the gold. When pigs (other than GEICO's) fly is when road crossing liability will change.
Bucyrus But aside from that, the railroads will be liberated from liability cost, so they should receive a very large net gain in the deal.
But aside from that, the railroads will be liberated from liability cost, so they should receive a very large net gain in the deal.
If there was a magic wand that *poof* could eliminate RR crossing liability, I'd be first in line to wave it.
But we have government comprised mostly of lawyers.
There will be no magic wand.
Since this thread is mentioning grade crossing liability, I do have ta question. If a railroad is sued do to train injuring/killing a motorist who run through/ignored crossing warnings, can/does the railroad counter sue for costs such as countsoling for train crew/damage to equipment?
Ungern
Somehow the real point of the proposal seems lost. Tort reform is an essential means (elimination of liability for the railroads or governments for crossing accidents) along with better technology that is less costly. The objective is improved crossing safety, primarily by better protection for what are currently passive crossings.
I understand, but the taxing would only be if the public sector found itself assuming new costs that it had not previously borne. Assuming that the railroads had been liberated from those costs in the changeover, the public sector would be justified in recovering them through a tax increase on the railroads.
BucyrusI don’t know who pays for what now, but if the public sector has to assume new costs that result from the railroads being relived of crossing ownership, then maybe they tax the railroads to recover those costs.
I'm just a bystander here with no special knowledge of economic factors involved in grade crossings.
Having said that, if I were in a policy making position for any railroad the very last thing I would do is to invite local, county or state government to increase taxes on my road. Any railroad must find it a real challenge just to keep up with all of the taxing authorities it must deal with. And all of those taxing authorities have demands for more services than they can afford. There is no way for the railroad to come out even in that situation.
Let's put forth the typical accident scenario between two automobiles:
You've just run a red light and been broadsided by another car. Assuming you are not in a 'no fault state' it's your liability insurance that's going to take on the onus of payment. Now, you try, and fail, to beat the train that has right of way and you've run a stop signal in the process.
Shouldn't the same burden fall on the motorist when struck by a train?
Norm
zugmannI still think a few well-thought out tort reform laws would be more beneficial. I don't see the various towns, hamlets, counties, cities, townships, boroughs and villages really lining up to take on more liability.
I don’t think the proposal is for the public sector to assume the liability. It is to simply eliminate the liability, so the railroads no longer bear it. Additionally, the public sector would assume all ownership and cost associated with owning and operating the crossings. I understand your point about cities and counties not wanting to assume any more cost, but I believe this would be handled a national basis.
I don’t know who pays for what now, but if the public sector has to assume new costs that result from the railroads being relived of crossing ownership, then maybe they tax the railroads to recover those costs.
zugmannI still think a few well-thought out tort reform laws would be more beneficial. I don't see the various towns, hamlets, counties, cities, townships, boroughs and villages really lining up to take on more liability. Be one heck of a fight, for sure.
Where is Jim Hill now that we need him?
Bucyrus zugmannWhat makes anyone think the public sector wants any more liability for crossings than they already have? Well maybe it would just be a matter of public fairness to not punish the railroads for the fact that trains are hard to stop.
zugmannWhat makes anyone think the public sector wants any more liability for crossings than they already have?
Well maybe it would just be a matter of public fairness to not punish the railroads for the fact that trains are hard to stop.
I still think a few well-thought out tort reform laws would be more beneficial. I don't see the various towns, hamlets, counties, cities, townships, boroughs and villages really lining up to take on more liability. Be one heck of a fight, for sure.
I'll keep this relatively nonpolitical.
Note that this issue was the nominal cause (circa 1928) of the de-emphasis of automatic train control under the provisions of the Esch Act. And people are still confused about what to do with it.
The 'correct' situation is to privatize the warning installations (with public subsidy where deemed in the public interest) for any private crossing... and shift the liability from the railroads over to private owner(s) or to any municipality or other party which wants to keep that crossing open.
What makes anyone think the public sector wants any more liability for crossings than they already have?
BaltACDThe 'report' smacks me as something I would have written in college trying to impress the instructor that I was smarter than I am.
Had you written this report in college perhaps your instructor would have been impressed. And perhaps he would have been correct to be impressed.
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