John took the waybills from an actual train (can't recall which railroad, though, if that was even stated - Penn Central or Southern come to mind) and explained in detail on a car-by-car basis how almost each load would be better handled as a container of some kind.
- Paul North.
In a nutshell, summarizing some of the above comments, Murphy's lumberyard suffers from 3 concurrent disadvantages to the railroad:
Fix any one of those 3, and the dynamics and attractiveness of the traffic to the railroad may change dramatically.
See also the concurrent "Large Frieght Yards" (sic) thread here, at: http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/t/212469.aspx
Why are those large yards needed, if not for "loose car railroading" ? (Aside from the likes of UP's Bailey Yard at North Platte, Nebraska, which does an extensive business in servicing unit trains that really just "run-through" except for swapping out the occasional block of cars for repairs or heavy maintenance, etc.)
More later, mainly on the theme of "loose cars" fitting the niche in transportation modal technology for the volume magnitude of ~10 to ~100 carloads per day, while containers (or trucks) are better for the ~1 to ~10 carloads per day range, and unit trains are best for the ~100 cars per day and up range.
Well I was just up in my train room when I looked out the window and a local freight was passing by on the BNSF (NP) main line. I know that it was the local because it was less than 50 cars, actually about 25, it was a mixed consist coal, grain, oil, boxes etc and it had a locomotive at both ends. Well almost all of our trains have locomotives at both ends, but this little trick makes switching easier. The crew is out of Dickinson, and so this is the only train that has its crew in Dickinson, it goes out as far as Glen Ullin and then comes back again. The Mandan local works the line between Mandan and New Salem.
On the Dickinson branch there are two large grain elevators, an ethanol plant, and a brick factory. Stone Mill takes box cars at the team track for shipping specialty grains. The elevators usually move 50 to 100 cars at a time, and the Brick Factory a dozen or more cars a week. The biggest user of small trains is the Ethanol plant here in Richardton. The receive coal and corn, and an occasional tank car of gasoline for denaturing the alcohol (Making E-80 instead of E-100 which would incur the wrath of the ATF.) They ship ethanol in dedicated tank cars, and also ship brewer's yeast used as cattle feed.
Oil loadings are going up, those are now full train sets, I understand that much of it is going to a Delta Airlines refinery on the East Coast somewhere. Much of our grain, coal and oil goes to the Pacific coast to export to Asia.
ROAR
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Paul_D_North_Jr In a nutshell, summarizing some of the above comments, Murphy's lumberyard suffers from 3 concurrent disadvantages to the railroad: Location is poor - not near a major traffic hub, yard, or other concentration of carload industries that would otherwise justify or need local switching service; Low volume of traffic; and, Low-rated and low-value commodity per carload - lumber vs. chemicals, etc. Fix any one of those 3, and the dynamics and attractiveness of the traffic to the railroad may change dramatically. See also the concurrent "Large Frieght Yards" (sic) thread here, at: http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/t/212469.aspx Why are those large yards needed, if not for "loose car railroading" ? (Aside from the likes of UP's Bailey Yard at North Platte, Nebraska, which does an extensive business in servicing unit trains that really just "run-through" except for swapping out the occasional block of cars for repairs or heavy maintenance, etc.) More later, mainly on the theme of "loose cars" fitting the niche in transportation modal technology for the volume magnitude of ~10 to ~100 carloads per day, while containers (or trucks) are better for the ~1 to ~10 carloads per day range, and unit trains are best for the ~100 cars per day and up range. - Paul North.
It sounds like to me, that Murphy's location is almost as good as being located at a yard. He's at a spot where there is a regularly (from the description given) local freight. Also they aren't on a malor main line where the local gets in the way of intermodals or unit coal trains/empty hoppers.
As to the load being low rated, the shipper probably prepaid the freight charges. If they already collected the money, shoudn't they deliver the car?
Low volume? No argument and that is probably the biggest obstacle to overcome in Murphy's description.
I think it was John WR who thought that BNSF's higher management wants the business, but that the local management doesn't. I'll say again, from my experience it's usually the otherway around. Local managers realize as you lose customers you lose jobs. As you lose jobs you lose employees to "manage." As you lose employees to manage, you lose manager jobs, too.
The biggest problem of Murphy's location, getting back to that, is that they are the last/one of the last customer to be worked on the local's return to the yard. It's getting towards the end of the quarter and year. If BNSF is like us, they are trying to make there numbers look good. There may be an edict against overtime (For those that have it, look up in a "Treasury of Railroad Folklore" the story, I think under officials/trainmasters, about the NYC and four loads of Kosher meat.) so if the returning local is close, they are told to highball the work. (I know some of our yards need a manager's approval if the yard/industry switch crew is close to going on OT.) They may have cut the extra boards so that there aren't at times dog catch crews available to recrew a dead local, again highball the work.
The biggest problem with low volume, single car load is you have to work more for it. Even if it's profitable, it's still more convienient to make money on unit train style operations. (Trains that go from A to Z with no intermediate work, except maybe for block swapping. They may not fit the true definition of a unit train, a train where all cars are moving on the terms of one waybill.)
If some of that easy business drops off, maybe they may have to rethink about having to pick some of that fruit higher up on the tree.
Jeff
BroadwayLion [snipped- PDN] Oil loadings are going up, those are now full train sets, I understand that much of it is going to a Delta Airlines refinery on the East Coast somewhere. . . .
From the linked article (date-lined Sept. 7, 2012):
"On Thursday, Delta also confirmed that it is looking into the possibility of switching the refinery's crude oil sourcing (at least in part) from imported seaborne crude to domestic Bakken crude. Due to a shortage of shipping capacity, crude from the Bakken region has traded at a significant discount to Brent crude over the past couple of years. This discount is expected to remain in place for a few more years as pipeline capacity tries to catch up to production increases. In the meantime, BNSF recently announced an expansion of railroad shipping capacity to move Bakken crude to refineries by rail. If Delta can buy Bakken crude and ship it by rail to the Trainer refinery, its costs could be perhaps 10-15 cents lower per gallon of finished product, even after accounting for the higher cost of moving oil by rail. The possibility of alternative sourcing provides further upside for Delta, with no real downside (if it's not economical, Delta can continue buying Brent crude)."
There are lumber yards West of Battle Creek, Michigan that get local trains Monday though Saturday over the CN/GTW railroad.
There are at least 10 center partition flat cars on the trains, loaded west, empty east, each train.
There is a huge amount of lumber traffic in Southwestern Michigan and Northern Indiana.
If the BNSF management is having a difficult time with local trains, they need a new set of procedures.
Andrew
Watch my videos on-line at https://www.youtube.com/user/AndrewNeilFalconer
What are the points of origin of the lumber? If they are Canadian, then perhaps BNSF is not highly motivated as they only receive the long haul revenue from an interchange in the Twin Cities. Also, the shippers probably are high volume customers for the receiving railroad while Murphy is low volume for the BNSF. If different railroads are involved the motivations are unequal.
It might also be instructive knowing how Murphy's non-rail serviced competitors receive their goods. Is there a team track in the Sioux Falls area where the lumber could be fork lift transferred from rail to truck?
Up until 4 years ago, 100% of our lumber came on trucks. Granted, probably half came from the west coast and western Canada on a train to either Minneapolis of Sioux Falls, before final delivery on a truck. Right now, perhaps 5% of our lumber is coming directly to us on a rail car. I forsee us going back to 100% truck in the future. What's hurting us is not slow service. What's hurting us, is the unpredictablity of trying to have a commodity item on hand when we need it. We've had to buy higher priced, fill in material to cover orders, while not knowing when ours will come in. When commodity prices are rising, that hurts. The competitiors all get their materials from relatively the same sources, through the same wholesalers, in the same manner- on trucks. I guess my boss figured he would be getting a competitive advantage, by being the only lumberyard in our market receiving their own cars by rail. It worked in the good, old days.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
henry6 If you're running a class one major carrier of 500 or more miles, you don't want the switching or terminal chores and costs. That's why there are short lines and terminal roads. It has been a unique and slow evolution but all involved are getting the idea down: long hauler, short line or terminal road, unions, shippers. Working together with understanding is doing well, evolving from a single major hauler to a major hauler handing cars and trains off to local haulers. But more importantly, allowing the local haulers the leeway to market the product and sell it to local industries.
If you're running a class one major carrier of 500 or more miles, you don't want the switching or terminal chores and costs. That's why there are short lines and terminal roads. It has been a unique and slow evolution but all involved are getting the idea down: long hauler, short line or terminal road, unions, shippers. Working together with understanding is doing well, evolving from a single major hauler to a major hauler handing cars and trains off to local haulers. But more importantly, allowing the local haulers the leeway to market the product and sell it to local industries.
This is already happening. I read some years ago that NS has "sublet" local freight service on some of it's lines to shortline operators. I'm sure the other Class 1's are doing this as well.
Probably a "wave of the future"..
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
Pulled this thread back up because I learned a few things recently that kind of fit in with loose car moves.
I recently worked with a conductor who had been involved with the company safety initiative. That position had him working in the office for two weeks of every month. Being in the office and as part of the job, had him rubbing elbows with the local managers. He told me that sometime ago (probably about a year as the guy who was the MTO at the time of this proposal became fed up with the games played by management and went back into the ranks) a major meat packing company wanted to locate a processing plant east of our terminal.
This plant would take in meat and slice and package it for sale. (I don't know if for direct retail or commercial use.) The company expected the business to eventually reach 50 cars per week. Our terminal has an assigned yard engine and I think from the condr's description, would've been within the switching limits allowing the yard engine to switch the customer. The railroad wasn't interested, didn't want their main track blocked while the local snake wagon switched an industry.
He also told me that a large grain processor located at a terminal up in the grain lines approached the railroad about running 50 car shuttle trains from elevators to their facility. They figured they would need to run these trains 3 or 4 times a week. Again the railroad wasn't interested.
Just a couple years ago, when the down turn started to really hit, the company asked employees to let them know if anyone saw any business opprotunities. I never have (because I've never seen any) but now I probably wouldn't. It's obvious as long as they can maintain "record" profits, even if traffic has declined, they are happy.
They have been "glowing" over their last quarter results. Congratulating themselves over how well they are running the railroad. Not everyone though, shares their enthusiasm. The Des Moines Register a couple weeks ago said the railroad beat one of Wall Street's expectations (they missed the other) in the face of declining coal and agricultural shipments by raising rates in the last quarter.
I said to my boss one day, instead of screwing over these small business, why don't we work with them and see if we can help them grow their business. I am sure in most cases it will be a failure, but in other cases we might be able to create great big customers.
It is cheaper for railroads to cut out the small players and focus on the big ones. Short lines, transload and intermodal are the way to go for the smaller players.
I don't know what to say, if my crew is up against time and there is a choice to be made between giving a 1 or 2 car customer service or a 30 or 50 car customer service, guess who gets the service? For the crew, the amount of work is almost equal. It's too bad for the small business, but that is the way it is.
Jeff, that's mildly infuriating. Fifty cars a week would have saved entire subdivisions from destruction a few years back. And I don't blame you for shutting up.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
BroadwayLion Well I was just up in my train room when I looked out the window and a local freight was passing by on the BNSF (NP) main line. I know that it was the local because it was less than 50 cars, actually about 25, it was a mixed consist coal, grain, oil, boxes etc and it had a locomotive at both ends. Well almost all of our trains have locomotives at both ends, but this little trick makes switching easier. The crew is out of Dickinson, and so this is the only train that has its crew in Dickinson, it goes out as far as Glen Ullin and then comes back again. The Mandan local works the line between Mandan and New Salem. On the Dickinson branch there are two large grain elevators, an ethanol plant, and a brick factory. Stone Mill takes box cars at the team track for shipping specialty grains. The elevators usually move 50 to 100 cars at a time, and the Brick Factory a dozen or more cars a week. The biggest user of small trains is the Ethanol plant here in Richardton. The receive coal and corn, and an occasional tank car of gasoline for denaturing the alcohol (Making E-80 instead of E-100 which would incur the wrath of the ATF.) They ship ethanol in dedicated tank cars, and also ship brewer's yeast used as cattle feed. Oil loadings are going up, those are now full train sets, I understand that much of it is going to a Delta Airlines refinery on the East Coast somewhere. Much of our grain, coal and oil goes to the Pacific coast to export to Asia. ROAR
Johnny
Deggesty LION, there is another objection to shipping E-100: if it is exposed to air for any appreciable time, it will convert itself to E-95 by pulling water out of the air. I know that the cars are supposed to be airtight, but 200 proof alcohol likes water to the point of making itself 190 proof if it can; the absolute alcohol that we had in the chemistry department at college was kept under benzene, with sodium wire in the alcohol to react with any water that might have gotten into it (not a tasty drink, to say the least). If you should put a glass full of absolute alcohol out in the air, it will overflow as it pulls water from the air (just as pure sulfuric acid will overflow under the same condition).
LION, there is another objection to shipping E-100: if it is exposed to air for any appreciable time, it will convert itself to E-95 by pulling water out of the air. I know that the cars are supposed to be airtight, but 200 proof alcohol likes water to the point of making itself 190 proof if it can; the absolute alcohol that we had in the chemistry department at college was kept under benzene, with sodium wire in the alcohol to react with any water that might have gotten into it (not a tasty drink, to say the least). If you should put a glass full of absolute alcohol out in the air, it will overflow as it pulls water from the air (just as pure sulfuric acid will overflow under the same condition).
I'm curious if the refiners actually make E-100, as you said, getting the last 5% of water out is a major undertaking. One reason for doing so would be to keep water out of the gasoline/ETOH mix.
- Erik
Little fringe note (don't ask me how I know about this field) if you are going to drink absolute alcohol be SURE to mix the water with it first. The hydrophilic 'reaction' will suck the water out of your lips and the other mucous membranes in your mouth, and there is also considerable exothermia (that's 'heat') generated as the water combines. I have never found this out firsthand, but oh, brother!
erikem I'm curious if the refiners actually make E-100, as you said, getting the last 5% of water out is a major undertaking. One reason for doing so would be to keep water out of the gasoline/ETOH mix.
Almost certainly not. The (reagent grade) alcohol I'm familiar with is made by a very different process than fermentation/distillation. It is comparatively expensive even to try to get that last 10 proof's worth out of the alcohol, so no, don't expect to see any 'refiner's' product at 200 proof.
190 proof, the way Everclear USED to be before they wimped out, is on the other hand achievable with proper condensation technique (and repeated 'fractional distillation'.
I never thought of there being a corrosion potential associated with the small amount of bound water. Whilethere is a slight implication for combustion, it's likely not to affect use as a fuel in most motor designs. You might have the same difficulty with precise fuel injection that you do in some of the modern high-pressure diesel setups, where the bound water flashes more easily to steam and the resulting pressure cracks the injector -- again do not ask me how I know about this, I could write a jeremiad -- but I suspect this is not particularly significant in practical alcohol engine design.
You might also remember that one of the old 'standys' for fixing 'bad gas' was to mix some alcohol with the fuel; this would neatly mix with any water in the tank and suspend it at low concentration in the gasoline. You do NOT want to try this trick in a modern diesel, and I believe the products that used alcohol prominently noted this, although being canny about exactly WHY it was a bad idea...
Toluene, on the other hand, as a combustion promoter... that's up there with Brown's gas as an interesting improvement on diesel operation that very few people seem to have figured the reasons for... but again, in VERY small quantity, no more than a couple of ounces in a typical light-truck tankful...
RME
Jeff:It is always interesting to hear from the employee side, rather than to read all the press releases about "record revenue" etc. Antitodal information is not "numbers" but often gives great insites into the business.
I can understand why the meat processing plant would be difficult to serve. If that ties up mainline, the costs involved to switch it daily would be huge. Would the meat plant be willing to pay for a controlled point siding into their plant? Mark Hemphill explored this years ago in a column.
The grain shuttle trains is a little more perplexing. Without knowing the origins and destinations, it is difficult to make the case for turning down the business...however, would the carrier be required to provide the cars (that could be a major cost in short haul, low turnover moves). Asset costs must be considered for such moves.
Perhaps the negotiations for this movement have not concluded. A straight "hey are you interested in 3 to 4 per week moves of 50 cars of corn with you supplying the cars at $x per car" might have been turned down after crunching the costs of handling this business. A counter offer of "customer provided cars at $x per car with minimum volumes" might be in play.
Adding new business is always interesting, as it must be analyzed based on a number of conditions. This is usually easy during an economic downturn, however new incremental business seldom shows up at those times, it is usually at or near peak volumes.
Management tools today allows pretty accurate ROI forecasts and simulations as to how it will effect the overall operations.
Ed
Ed,
I know working the industry would tie up the main track. That's the reason the CNW chased away the Fareway Grocery chain's business. Their main (only?) distributing center is located on the north side of the main line. They just (within the last couple of years) remodelled and added on to their facility, eliminating the old, unused rail dock. The tracks to the dock have been gone for years, before I hired out.
I know of other places like that. There's a cereal plant that used to ship by rail. I missed it, but an article in the paper (it's not Quaker Oats in Cedar Rapids, for those Cedar Rapidians/Iowans among us. QO hasn't shipped out cereal by rail for years.) said the places they shipped to couldn't take an entire box car of product at one time. I'm sorry, but I doubt that. They don't ship to retail stores, but warehouses/distribution centers. It's hard to believe one of those couldn't take a box car load. More likely, the railroad just provided bad service. (Sometimes, I think they've gone out of the way to provide bad service on single car loads.) And this cereal plant is served off an industrial lead and local yard. (Hint, see the November 1995 Trains about a certain railroad where they mention picking up loads from this plant.)
The operating unions local chairmen meet every so often with division managment. The last monthly union meeting I attended (Dec 2012). Our LC said the RR said that the forecast was for traffic to slightly drop in our area, but on a brighter note, the outlook for other parts of the railroad is for traffic to rise. The LC said what was in all our thoughts, "We are supposed to be happy that the company is doing well elsewhere, but we will probably lose some more jobs?" He also said there was pressure to reduce yard engine hours. I've heard through a manager at an outlaying terminal that they are thinking about putting more engines into storage, that we have too many in use for the current level of business.
When on certain days of the week, you can only see 12 or so trains (12 both directions and not including probably about another 6 each way that run through) on the 36 hour line up. When they are talking about cutting more jobs and placing power into storage. When they have asked, in the recent past, for employees to let them know about business opprotunities. When you have employees who just a few years ago were working regular and now are on the bubble between working regular, working reserve or cut off. It's hard to understand how they can so easily dismiss certain lines of business.
PS, I don't know for sure, but the location of the processing plant as described to me, it may have been able to be switched off the siding the elevator put in for unit grain trains. That would have involved the elevator's consent, but we use it once in a great while to stage trains. Less so for staging since they added a new siding at our terminal.
jeffhergert Ed, I know working the industry would tie up the main track. That's the reason the CNW chased away the Fareway Grocery chain's business. Their main (only?) distributing center is located on the north side of the main line. They just (within the last couple of years) remodelled and added on to their facility, eliminating the old, unused rail dock. The tracks to the dock have been gone for years, before I hired out. I know of other places like that. There's a cereal plant that used to ship by rail. I missed it, but an article in the paper (it's not Quaker Oats in Cedar Rapids, for those Cedar Rapidians/Iowans among us. QO hasn't shipped out cereal by rail for years.) said the places they shipped to couldn't take an entire box car of product at one time. I'm sorry, but I doubt that. They don't ship to retail stores, but warehouses/distribution centers. It's hard to believe one of those couldn't take a box car load. More likely, the railroad just provided bad service. (Sometimes, I think they've gone out of the way to provide bad service on single car loads.) And this cereal plant is served off an industrial lead and local yard. (Hint, see the November 1995 Trains about a certain railroad where they mention picking up loads from this plant.) The operating unions local chairmen meet every so often with division managment. The last monthly union meeting I attended (Dec 2012). Our LC said the RR said that the forecast was for traffic to slightly drop in our area, but on a brighter note, the outlook for other parts of the railroad is for traffic to rise. The LC said what was in all our thoughts, "We are supposed to be happy that the company is doing well elsewhere, but we will probably lose some more jobs?" He also said there was pressure to reduce yard engine hours. I've heard through a manager at an outlaying terminal that they are thinking about putting more engines into storage, that we have too many in use for the current level of business. When on certain days of the week, you can only see 12 or so trains (12 both directions and not including probably about another 6 each way that run through) on the 36 hour line up. When they are talking about cutting more jobs and placing power into storage. When they have asked, in the recent past, for employees to let them know about business opprotunities. When you have employees who just a few years ago were working regular and now are on the bubble between working regular, working reserve or cut off. It's hard to understand how they can so easily dismiss certain lines of business. Jeff PS, I don't know for sure, but the location of the processing plant as described to me, it may have been able to be switched off the siding the elevator put in for unit grain trains. That would have involved the elevator's consent, but we use it once in a great while to stage trains. Less so for staging since they added a new siding at our terminal.
In many cases, carriers have offered Intermodal Service to shippers as a replacement for loose car operations. In many cases this is a win-win change for both the shipper and the carrier.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
If I were an industry looking to build and required rail service, I would seriously consider building on a shortline or regional which would give me access to multiple Class 1s.
True story. This isnt about railroading, but it is about unprofitable business.
About 2 years ago the word came down from the suits to pursue business we had lost. I pursued one account in particular and wrote the business at very undesirable pricing (to meet competition). It didnt work out for us, and while it added to the revenue side, we took an absolute beating with the margins. It all came back to me as to why we DIDNT WANT THIS BUSINESS. The account wasnt worth it.
To make things worse, the customer was very frustrated at us because we couldnt meet unreasonable service demands and vowed he would never use us again (no problem, I had made that determination). The issue with that is that I take my reputation very seriously and no doubt took a hit within the close knit trucking industry.
There is some business that simply isnt worth it. Perhaps the two examples stated by Jeff call into that category.
Remember...volume is vanity and profit is sanity.
I'm sure they can "rationalize" things so the numbers turn out the way they want. But they shouldn't be surprised one day when they find out that they narrowed the focus on what traffic was suitable for them that they have little business left.
Uncle Warren bought BNSF for a reason. He could've made a play for someone else across town, but didn't. (There's a rumor he did look at the other side of town, and went for the BNSF instead.) Although I must admit, they also may have the unit train/thousand mile mentality too. Everyone just wants the cream off the top, but want someone else to milk the cow.
It used to be said of railroading, if a load didn't fit in a box car, the railroad didn't want it. Now it seems if it doesn't need 100 cars or move 1000 miles, the railroad doesn't want it.
PS, Ed I want to make it clear when I'm talking about "fudging" numbers, I'm referring to the railroads and not you in your example. I agree there can be times when the numbers actually don't work out. However, I also know that companies (all companies not just railroads) at times can be a bit "creative" (but not illegal) when they want something to work out the way they want.
Sounds kinda like a guy who's pruning a tree, and he starts cutting off branches that are weak or in the way or dead. He gets so carried away he ends up with just the trunk.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Jeff:100 cars or 1000 miles seems to be a rule these days Jeff. If it were me tho, I would find a way to move those 50 cars of corn 3 - 4 times a week. Gotta find a way.
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