Victrola1 Lumber is not fine china. Containerize it. Convert old flat cars to handle a container, with a twist. Install a greased, sideways ejection rail with an explosive charge on the flat car. There is no need for a siding. All you need is an area along the tracks that is preferably ditched to keep the container from rolling too far. The rail crew makes a cell call about an hour away. The consignee's crane is nearby out of harm's way and ready to move. Shoot the container off the flat car. The consignee picks it up To return the empty container, hose the dirt and grass off the outside. Remove any match sticks from the inside. The consignee is informed what day the local will be back. Call an hour away so the consignee's crane can reset the empty on the flat car. No expensive switches are necessary. No siding is necessary. Rural secondary mains and branch lines reduce costs and gain customers.
Lumber is not fine china. Containerize it.
Convert old flat cars to handle a container, with a twist. Install a greased, sideways ejection rail with an explosive charge on the flat car. There is no need for a siding. All you need is an area along the tracks that is preferably ditched to keep the container from rolling too far.
The rail crew makes a cell call about an hour away. The consignee's crane is nearby out of harm's way and ready to move. Shoot the container off the flat car. The consignee picks it up
To return the empty container, hose the dirt and grass off the outside. Remove any match sticks from the inside. The consignee is informed what day the local will be back. Call an hour away so the consignee's crane can reset the empty on the flat car.
No expensive switches are necessary. No siding is necessary. Rural secondary mains and branch lines reduce costs and gain customers.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Throw momma and mop board off the train maybe a little much.
My expertise on rail lading of lumber is limited to watching the trains go by. Still, the old concept of LCL containers for one agent depots lingers.
Lumber cars remind of a silverware basket hung on the tray end of a dishwasher. Can you make a 2X4 tray to fit the well of a container car? Post and lintel a stationary frame over the track to meet clearance. Lift and pull to the side. Wave to the rail crew as they depart.
Better yet, put the 2X4 tray on a truck. Abandon the branch line.
Remember when IBM, the maker of the largest computer systems on the planet, made a conscious decision to ignore the "small computers" that were being used by individuals and small businesses and concentrate on the giant high profit machines? How did that work out for them in the long run?
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Victrola1 [snipped - PDN] Lumber is not fine china. Containerize it.
http://www.hammarlift.com/
They say in several places that it can be used for railcar-to-truck transfers, and I have no doubt of it - but I can't easily find a good photo of that actually happening (yet), other than this one:
http://www.hammar.eu/images/products/150/inaction/4.jpg
- Paul North.
Victrola1 Throw momma and mop board off the train maybe a little much. My expertise on rail lading of lumber is limited to watching the trains go by. Still, the old concept of LCL containers for one agent depots lingers. Lumber cars remind of a silverware basket hung on the tray end of a dishwasher. Can you make a 2X4 tray to fit the well of a container car? Post and lintel a stationary frame over the track to meet clearance. Lift and pull to the side. Wave to the rail crew as they depart. Better yet, put the 2X4 tray on a truck. Abandon the branch line.
According to the LION, rail will always be a big player in lumber movements.
But the movement is from the mills to regional wholesalers who will truck it to the retail outlets.
There is ONE (count them... ONE) Mobil oil dealer in North Dakota. He is a wholesaler with a retail outlet. He receives all of his product by truck from a distributor in Montana. If anything, THIS would be a good candidate for rail transport. He is right on the main track, indeed right on the rail yard in Dickinson. Shipments could be received at the convenience of the railroad.
Oh well, it is not my business!
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Paul_D_North_Jr Victrola1 [snipped - PDN] Lumber is not fine china. Containerize it. Yep. Use one of these instead (Hammar Lift USA - there are several other maufacturers worldwide): http://www.hammarlift.com/ They say in several places that it can be used for railcar-to-truck transfers, and I have no doubt of it - but I can't easily find a good photo of that actually happening (yet), other than this one: http://www.hammar.eu/images/products/150/inaction/4.jpg - Paul North.
mmmmm....wonder if one can scratchbuild one of these....
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
I promise you that a trucking company would be happy as a clam to deliver your lumber on a schedule that makes you happy. Railroads need to stop thinking of trucks as competition and form some partnerships. Rail is very good at moving large shipments long distances. Trucks are very good at local deliveries to many locations. After all, that's why containers were invented.
Phoebe Vet,not far from us up in Statesville is a good size Lumber reloads.
Russell
Do railroads want out of the small customer business because they actually lose money on it, or is it more an emotional decision based on a liking of more lucrative business?
I would love to see NS or CSX container trucks on our roads. Of course the brands were totally chosen because they are the local RRs here.
Purchase the trucking companies the way FedEX turned Roadway into FedEX Ground and got retail outlets by buying Kinko's.
I see CSX and NS containers and trailers on the road all the time in my area,
Don't forget the UPS bought Overnite from UP for their trucking option and bought Mail Boxes etc. to rebrand them as 'The UPS Store' to compete with FedEx in a tit for tat basis or did FedEx copy UPS.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Bucyrus Do railroads want out of the small customer business because they actually lose money on it, or is it more an emotional decision based on a liking of more lucrative business?
Emotional? You're joking, right?
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Emotional is the right word here, Zug. Investors will look at a business with an accountant's eye and take off whatever does not come up to the wanted return on investment. Haven't you heard me say they want 80% of $100 rather than 50% of $200. Yeah, they won't spend the extra hundred to earn $20 more overall. because it brings the return down. That's emotional not sound business thinking, especially when you get into a business that moves things for other people. If you don't want to move things, then go open a pizza parlor.
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zugmann Bucyrus Do railroads want out of the small customer business because they actually lose money on it, or is it more an emotional decision based on a liking of more lucrative business? Emotional? You're joking, right?
Well it sure sounds emotional—i.e. nudging the customer away, dropping hints with crummy service, not really wanting the small business, better service for tipping the crews, etc.
henry6 Emotional is the right word here, Zug. Investors will look at a business with an accountant's eye and take off whatever does not come up to the wanted return on investment. Haven't you heard me say they want 80% of $100 rather than 50% of $200. Yeah, they won't spend the extra hundred to earn $20 more overall. because it brings the return down. That's emotional not sound business thinking, especially when you get into a business that moves things for other people. If you don't want to move things, then go open a pizza parlor.
Murphy Siding Bucyrus Do railroads want out of the small customer business because they actually lose money on it, or is it more an emotional decision based on a liking of more lucrative business? What kind of a dern fool thing is that to say? An emotional decision?
If it is not an emotional decision, why are they so wishy-washy on whether or not they want the business? If I get a project offer where I can’t make money, I don’t take it. You have more or less said the same thing earlier when you disagreed with the approach the railroad takes in refusing business they apparently don’t want.
So if their decision to discourage business by dropping hints is not emotional, what then motivates it? Either the business makes money and they perform the job, or it does not make money and they get out of it.
Or do they not know whether they make money or lose money on the small business because it is small, and therefore they cannot be sure they are making money on it?
Murphy...believe me it is an emotional decision. One after the other. Often shooting from the hip, anxious for the rewards, the sight of dollar signs reflecting from everything they see. Natural gas drilling companies in PA finding people with hundreds of acres of unused property, near or under foreclosure on the mortgage or back taxes, leaping on these people sucking up the land use at $2 an acre and start drilling the next day without looking at the land or the water or the air. Next thing you know the water is full of methane and water spigots on bathroom and kitchen sinks ignite and burn. So quick to get the money they forgot to text the ground and the water...no are being accused of causing a problem...yeah...often land owners themselves didn't know it existed, or did but the money was too hot to pass up.
Another one, a president of a supermarket chain walks into a store early one Friday morning and doesn't like what he sees. Calls the head offices 40 miles away and tells them the store is to be redone before Monday rolls around, updated, new everything. It is done. Then the store is closed two months later because it was a loser anyway.
And investors are like that when they want more return on investment than it is currently doing. So they fire, cut back, change the methods, change the size, lessen the quality, but bring the cost down so they can earn a huge mark up that they want. But the market balks in the loss of quality or bulk or scarcity of the product and buy another brand. Emotion runs high when one wants to make high mark ups and wide margins.
There is more emotion in the money aspect of most everything. Have you ever heard of a pipefitter or house painter or factory laborer jumping from the 50th floor of their building? But you have heard of bankers and stockbrokers doing it. Yep, money decisions are emotional.
henry- Maybe it's that I live in a different part of the country. Maybe it's because we are different ages. My world isn't going to hell in a handbasket. My glass is half full. You have my sympathies.
Bucyrus Murphy Siding Bucyrus Do railroads want out of the small customer business because they actually lose money on it, or is it more an emotional decision based on a liking of more lucrative business? What kind of a dern fool thing is that to say? An emotional decision? If it is not an emotional decision, why are they so wishy-washy on whether or not they want the business? If I get a project offer where I can’t make money, I don’t take it. You have more or less said the same thing earlier when you disagreed with the approach the railroad takes in refusing business they apparently don’t want. So if their decision to discourage business by dropping hints is not emotional, what then motivates it? Either the business makes money and they perform the job, or it does not make money and they get out of it. Or do they not know whether they make money or lose money on the small business because it is small, and therefore they cannot be sure they are making money on it?
If I asked them, I would probably get an emotionally based answer to my question. You brought up the quesion. Why do you think they abuse the small customers to make them go away rather than just set the price where they make money?
I don't know if they are taking so long to deliver your car because it's so low a priority that it is unimportant to them, or if they are trying to drop hints, but I doubt they will ever outright tell you they don't want your business. If they did, some businessmen would go to their congressman, and then the congressman would think how ungrateful the RRs are after he gave them that infrastructure money, and he may start agitating for re-regulation.
Murphy Siding henry- Maybe it's that I live in a different part of the country. Maybe it's because we are different ages. My world isn't going to hell in a handbasket. My glass is half full. You have my sympathies.
The world went to hell in a handbasket, a supermarket cart, and a leveraged buyout years ago...I don't need your sympathies, but you by all means, need mine. My wine glass if full and I drink to your hopeful future!.
MidlandMikeI don't know if they are taking so long to deliver your car because it's so low a priority that it is unimportant to them, or if they are trying to drop hints, but I doubt they will ever outright tell you they don't want your business. If they did, some businessmen would go to their congressman, and then the congressman would think how ungrateful the RRs are after he gave them that infrastructure money, and he may start agitating for re-regulation.
That would certainly explain why they drop hints rather than just cutting off service.
I am sort of surprised by all of this. if the local job originates in Sioux Falls even once/week, the car should be delivered. I am somewhat familiar with the area. I suspect you unload spur is the one just north of Harrisburg and there is a run-around just south of there in town.
Loose car operation is the 'norm' on lines like this - there is no fast inter-modal trains. The 'rock' trains are the only 'unit' traffic! Shippers have electronic web access to BNSF and can check on progress of their shipment - has your management checked or called the region service manager?
I was involved in the movement of rail to a museum a few years back. We ordered a 65' mill gondola, and it was spotted on the day requested. The local yardmaster also called and verified when we would have it loaded and ready for shipment(there are severe 'charges' on these cars if we miss the pick-up deadline). The big issue was the 'inspection of the car interior to make sure we had enough tie 'dunnage' in the ends of the car to protect the car from the 60' rails we were shipping. The car was interchanged to another railroad, and it did take about 2 weeks to get it to the museum.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
Wow…
Ok, it’s like this.
Most unit trains have a contractual bonus for on time arrival performance, and turnaround time.
We, the PTRA, get a bonus if we can turn the UP coal train in under 48 hours, ready to depart our property.
Depending on what’s in the train, a lot of “general merchandise” trains also earn an on time bonus.
Look at it like this.
You’re a corridor manager.
You have two or three customers in your corridor that get 4 or 5 cars a week, sometimes in a solid block, sometimes one or two at a time.
From 6am to 6pm all your traffic is west bound.
6pm till 6am it all goes east.
You have 6 daily coal trains, 5 daily grain trains, 5 general or mixed through freights, 2 of which have an on time bonus, 2 more mixed that are bridge traffic with run through crews and Amtrak just for fun, plus 3 yard to yard transfers, one of which has to stop and shove 35 empty tank cars into a ethanol plant..
And a “local” that needs to work the four customers that each need the one or two cars.
To make it easy let’s assume all of the above trains can make it across your corridor with no issues at all, no crews hitting duty time, no broken knuckles, nothing.
In all seriousness, how many of you would hold up what trains so the local can switch Murphy’s car?
I can tell you exactly what the corridor manager will tell the dispatcher, if the dispatcher even brings up the local in the morning phone conference…”it can run as soon as the rest of the trains get across, unless you can squeeze it in between the yard transfers, but it has to go with traffic west after the spot, and you will need to get the yard locomotive back here as soon as you can, so skip it if there are no east bounds till late, we need that locomotive here in the yard.”
It isn’t so much a matter of not wanting business like Murphy’s as it is a matter of wanting the volume business and the bonus payments more.
As odd as it may sound, which customer do you think the railroad is willing to get the most PO’ed or upset…Murphy’s lumber company, or the power plant/energy company that needs those coal trains, or ADM who pays a bonus for their grain trains to have priority?
Most of you remember or know of the SP’s Blue Streak Merchandiser.
Down here, it was the hottest train SP had, nothing, but nothing got in its way.
It might have a block of juice cars in it, maybe a block of produce in reefers, blocks of empty auto racks, but most of what was in that train was high priority general freight, blocked out for yards along it route,
Whoa be the dispatcher who was foolish enough to delay it, guys were pulled out of service for holding it up ten minutes.
A lot and I mean a lot of things have changed in just the 15 years I have been doing this.
In my first years we had two, sometimes three yard tracks full of nothing but empty bulkhead flats in one with the other full of loads.
Lots of new suburbs going in, most within 50 miles of the lumber companies, which of course, are grouped around the rail yards and in the industrial section of the city.
But the building/construction of new homes and such has moved so far out that now days, it’s a 200 mile round trip to truck the lumber from the distribution center to the construction site.
It’s cheaper and much more convenient to simply truck the lumber direct to the site from the mill…or the lumber distribution companies have moved out near to the new construction, and there is no rail access..
10 years ago, the Class 1 serving Murphy had the time and the crews to service his company, there was no massive unit trains of ethanol, and coal was a steady flow, no surges like today.
The Blue Steak is gone now days, because the type of traffic, and how that traffic has to move has changed, there no longer is a need for the Blue Streak.
One poster mentioned the Class 1 Murphy was talking about was being wishy washey…no, they aren’t.
They have made it quite clear…they offer service because they have to offer service, but they can and are offering it only on their terms.
They gladly with take Murphy’s money, but only when it is convenient for them.
Henry stated this is an emotional issue, driven by corporate greed, (my interpretation of his posting) and the desire for profit…well, yeah, that’s why people build railroads and create oil companies, and then invest in railroads, oil companies and communication companies, to make money.
Is it emotional?
Somewhat…after all, like most people who invest, I like making money, and I dislike losing money, so some emotion is involved.
As for the person who Henry alludes to have been coerced into selling his land at $2.00 an acre…
I am pretty sure whatever the land sold for was the current market rate, I doubt someone from the gas exploration company held a gun to the land owners head and said “Hey buddy, either sell us your land cheap or I bust a cap in ya!”
The land owner seems to have made a choice after looking at the return he was getting from his property, versus the value the gas company was offering, and he choose to sell because it profited him in some manner.
10 years ago, Murphy’s business was “good business” or profitable for the railroad, then it most likely was part of the railroads mainstay business like a lot of other “loose car load” businesses.
But the railroads business has change so much in the last decade that Murphy’s lumber is no longer profitable to the railroad, as too is most of the loose car load business along that line.
23 17 46 11
I would not call the decision emotional, rather it is what fits the fashion of the time. An employee hoping to move up the promotion ladder needs to conform with the fashion. Thinking outside the box is usually a career limiting move, no matter how much benefit it would bring to a company.
Loose car railroading became unfashionable on many of the major railroads. It works best with a dedicated wayfreight or industrial job to handle the cars at origin and destination. But realistically the economics work better if that local handles 20 cars in a shift rather than 5 or 6. And very few have the volume today. It has been lost for many reasons, Often the shipper has closed or relocated, other times unreliable service meant he now uses trucks. Occasionally he now uses intermodal service, but maybe with a competing railroad.
If the sidings are on a main line, using a through train to handle the traffic seems to be an obvious way to eliminate the cost of the additional wayfreight. But when things get congested the wayfreight can hold clear for an hour or three until it can complete the switch. As others noted, the through train gets shot on past and it may be a couple of days before the car gets back for another try. That cost is rarely considered, meanwhile Operations notes the nuisance and simply tries to eliminate the problem, not rectify it. And of course, the past regulatory environment meant it was hard to get compensated properly for the terminal costs which gave another incentive for the railroads to discourage it.
John
Murphy SidingHowever, there is an interseting backstory to this. The rail spur, and the lumberyard are only 4 years old. We've probably received about a dozen cars total on it. The owner of the company, my boss, made the decision to put in the rail spur. Had he asked me, I would have said it was not a good investment, as we'd never save enough freight to cover the investment. He didn't ask me. He asked the BNSF what they thought of the idea. ' Turns out, they thought it was a great idea! In fact, they've used our spur more times as a parking spot than we have.
Murphy,
Your backstory is fascinating. It sounds to me like BNSF top management values your siding and wants to keep it. After all, any business executive knows that some business is more profitable than other business but overall the most profitable tactic is to keep all business. That means that you can prioritize but you cannot let your service deteriorate to the point where you drive customers away.
However, local management many have a hidden agenda. They want to make their life a little easier and if they can claim there is no demand for your kind of business their life will be made easier. They allow the service to deteriorate so you will walk away and count on the rigidity of the organization to cover up their actions which tend to diminish profits.
I'm sure your boss and you have thought about how you can deal with the problem but have not had much success. Clearly, the truck delivery solution is there if you want it. However, you boss could have had that without paying for the rail siding. Since he has brought and paid for rail deliveries I see no reason why he should now walk away from his purchase. I would pursue seeking rail deliveries although it might be necessary to use truck deliveries also.
In any case, I hope your boss is able to find the right person to give him the service that he was promised and that he has brought and paid for.
John WR Murphy SidingHowever, there is an interseting backstory to this. The rail spur, and the lumberyard are only 4 years old. We've probably received about a dozen cars total on it. The owner of the company, my boss, made the decision to put in the rail spur. Had he asked me, I would have said it was not a good investment, as we'd never save enough freight to cover the investment. He didn't ask me. He asked the BNSF what they thought of the idea. ' Turns out, they thought it was a great idea! In fact, they've used our spur more times as a parking spot than we have. Murphy, Your backstory is fascinating. It sounds to me like BNSF top management values your siding and wants to keep it. After all, any business executive knows that some business is more profitable than other business but overall the most profitable tactic is to keep all business. That means that you can prioritize but you cannot let your service deteriorate to the point where you drive customers away. However, local management many have a hidden agenda. They want to make their life a little easier and if they can claim there is no demand for your kind of business their life will be made easier. They allow the service to deteriorate so you will walk away and count on the rigidity of the organization to cover up their actions which tend to diminish profits. I'm sure your boss and you have thought about how you can deal with the problem but have not had much success. Clearly, the truck delivery solution is there if you want it. However, you boss could have had that without paying for the rail siding. Since he has brought and paid for rail deliveries I see no reason why he should now walk away from his purchase. I would pursue seeking rail deliveries although it might be necessary to use truck deliveries also. In any case, I hope your boss is able to find the right person to give him the service that he was promised and that he has brought and paid for. John
The railroad may have just encouraged the new siding because they would rather run on a new siding than an old one.
I would guess that with small shippers, the railroad simply does not know whether they make money on the service or not because the question is so close to the threshold. They probably make money one month and lose money another month, so there is no way to know what the annual result will be until it is tallied. I expect that nobody in management wants to take the risk of showing that the railroad lost money for a year on serving a small customer.
The only solution I can see is for Murphy’s lumberyard to convert to trucks. Maybe there is some value in recouping the value of the land used by the siding. Other than that, the railroads would need to come up with a new way of getting the freight off of their trains and into the customer’s plant. Perhaps something along the lines of that idea using explosives mentioned earlier would work.
What is needed is a method of containerizing the lumber and getting it off the train and into the customer’s plant without spurs and switches. But maybe the railroad would not even like the financial risk of running the peddler train, so the container would have to move from the freight yard to the lumberyard by truck.
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