Many Texans want to secede from the Union. They have presented a petition to allow them to do just that and look forward to the day Texas will again be an independent country. If Texas does secede there is a question of what happens to Federal property there--court houses, military bases, parks and, of course, Amtrak property and the trains that now serve Texas. Will Amtrak continue to run through Texas or wiill there be new routes that do not enter the country? Will Texas set up its own rail system?
The New York Times has an article about Texas secession but it does not address the issue of Amtrak. Here is a link to the article: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/24/us/politics/with-stickers-a-petition-and-even-a-middle-name-secession-fever-hits-texas.html?_r=0
Overlooking the silly notion that secession would actually happen..... It's obvious that a passenger railroad owned, operated, and subsidized by the US Government wouldn't be operating through any ....foreign....country. Amtrak doesn't run through Mexico or Canada now. It makes sense, Amtrak wouldn't run through The Republic of Texas.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Atually, Amtrak does operate into Canada -- the Adirondack to Montreal, and the 2 Cascades to Vancouver, are both Amtrak operations. I believe that they do not, however, carry passengers between Canadian points.
Suggested train name, the Jefferson Davis.
Victrola1 Suggested train name, the Jefferson Davis.
Texans would never go for that - Davis was a native of Mississippi, unless my memory is playing tricks again. They would probably agree to call it the Sam Houston.
The Fort Worth and Denver a joint Burlington and Rock Island property, hosted the Sam Houston Zephyr (Burlington) and the Texas Rocket (Rock Island).
And in an odd twist, the old Jefferson Davis Hospital, the city’s first charity hospital open to both blacks and whites, was the birth place of over several thousand of Houston’s black citizens in the 1920s through the late 50s…imagine the irony of being a black person born in a hospital named after the President of the CSA.
The hospital was built on top of an old cemetery; it has an above ground basement because of that, and is within 100 yards of the old SP Grand Central Station, now served by an Amshack.
Currently, Jeff Davis is being renovated into Artist Lofts.
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SALfan Victrola1 Suggested train name, the Jefferson Davis. Texans would never go for that - Davis was a native of Mississippi, unless my memory is playing tricks again. They would probably agree to call it the Sam Houston.
I'm sure VERY few Texans would object to calling it the "General Lee" , suh!
All Amtrak trains would have to stop at a port of entry and passengers would be required to show their passports.
Said tongue in cheek.
Norm
Norm48327 All Amtrak trains would have to stop at a port of entry and passengers would be required to show their passports. Said tongue in cheek.
Editor Emeritus, This Week at Amtrak
You don't check passports going in and out of Texas...you check your guns...make sure they're full.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
Dragoman Atually, Amtrak does operate into Canada -- the Adirondack to Montreal, and the 2 Cascades to Vancouver, are both Amtrak operations. I believe that they do not, however, carry passengers between Canadian points.
The "Times" article is long on opinion and short on facts, which is not unusual. It cites the views of a few extremists. I don't know of any responsible Texas leader (political, education, business, religious, etc.) who seriously supports succession from the United States. Even the governor's comments were taken out of context.
According to the article 116,000 Texans have signed a petition supporting succession. The population of Texas is approximately 25.7 million. Of this number 72.9 per cent or approximately 18.7 million are over 18 years of age and, therefore, are old enough to vote. This means that 62/100s of one per cent of those Texans over 18 supposedly have signed the petition, knew what they were signing, and were cognizant of the implications of withdrawing from the United States.
Some of the comments from forum participants reflect a profound ignorance of Texas. I suspect that a significant number of them have never spent any serious time in Texas. If they had they might know that Texas is not unique in permitting people to carry concealed handguns; at least 32 other states permit them. Or they might know that Sam Houston opposed succession and retired from public life when Texas left the union. An independent Texas would not likely name a train after him.
Most Texans don't care about Amtrak. If it went away tomorrow, most of them would not even know that it is gone. Or care!
Amtrak does not own any property in Texas. The stations are owned by the cities where it calls, with the exception of Taylor, where the property is owned by the Union Pacific Railroad. Amtrak operates over hoist railroads in Texas; it does not own any track in the Lone Star state.
In addition to the Cascades and Adirondack, Amtrak runs the Maple Leaf between New York and Toronto.
Texas leaves the union, then gets hit by a Katrina size hurricane and immediately expects FEMA aid...oops not so fast there pard'ner!
This nonsense comes up every now and then by a bunch of malcontent anti-government-anything folks who really done have a clue what the implications are, NO Federal Border Patrol, NO US Military Bases (or the money they pump into the econ), and NO Federal FBI Crime Investigation or Prevention, NO Homeland Security, NO Federal Reserve to help stabilize their currency, NO Federal funding to States, etc etc. We would have to build a huge border fence around Texas In a short time Texas would be so worked over economically due to non-existant currency (supported and stabilized by what reserve?) and by crime lords from Mexico (who are better armed and organized than alot of these folks realize), and in a short time we would have a huge problem keep out illegal Texan immigrants, that Texas would be begging for re-entry in 5-10 years, the question then would be, after all the mess they created, would we really want them back????
Of course this won't happen in a million years, 99% of Texas are fierce supporters of America, put it on the ballot and watch it go down in embarrassing defeat.
As for Amtrak, yes, the impact would be minimal, the Sunset Limited would have to redirect thru Raton Pass, across the plains, then down to New Orleans and on to Florida (if it still goes that far). The other trains would just have to stop at the closet major city north. Other rail traffic would get diverted also to New Orleans, which could reap the benefit of major shipping increases to avoid any taxes or tarrifs the Repub of Texas would HAVE to impose on imports thru Galveston or Houston (no taxes, no budget, especially without Federal support (or Federal pork barrels to them there secessionists). Importers would simply bypass Texas Ports as not to pay ANY kind of extra fees on their products especially if they could just disembark in New Orleans or Mobile. So while the implications to Amtrak are minimal, the loss of rail and shipping thru the ports could be devastating....
...for Texas that is.
Have fun with your trains
The special conditions of Texas' admission to the US were altered by the Civil War. Petitions to the president, plebiscites, acts of a state legislature have no force of law. Most constitutional scholars believe that no state has the right to secede.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Do not leave out the Republic of North Dakota! Heck Let MT. ID, WY, ND, SD, NE, KS, OK, TX, AR, MI, and IA all secede from the onion, and from a new nation. Call it "New America". According the the Russian example we get to keep all military bases on our land. We issue the New Dollar (ND₴) and refuse any exchange with US$. You cross the border and you can exchange gold for ₴ at any bank that does assay. You want to buy our oil, gas, coal, grain, corn or meat and you pay in ₴. We only exchange for gold.
We have no national debt, and our taxes cover out expenses. PERIOD.
ROAR
₴
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Murphy,
I don't know that secession is a "silly notion." Granted, it has only been tried once and the Civil War decided the issue back then. But things change. I personally disagree with secession but that is not an objective reason to think that it cannot happen.
John
schlimm The special conditions of Texas' admission to the US were altered by the Civil War. Petitions to the president, plebiscites, acts of a state legislature have no force of law. Most constitutional scholars believe that no state has the right to secede.
Interesting. The Constitution is silent on the subject, it says nothing for or against, although obviously the USA would be a joke of a nation if states could come and go as they please. It would have to take some serious, serious "stuff" for any state to consider secession nowadays. A "Zombie Apocalypse" that the Federal Government couldn't deal with, maybe?
Sam,
Since you do live in Texas and I don't I certainly respect your opinions of the issue of Texas seceding from the Union. I don't want to make too fine a point of it but it is hard not to notice that 116 thousand Texans disagree with you. True, that is a small proportion of the total number of Texans but simply because other Texans have not signed the petition does not mean they would oppose secession.
In 1869 the United States Supreme Court ruled in Texas v White, 74 U.S. 700 that unilateral secession was not permitted saying that the union between a state (Texas in the case before the bar) "was as complete, as perpetual, and as indissoluble as the union between the original States. There was no place for reconsideration or revocation, except through revolution or through consent of the States." Thus unilateral attempts at secession are not an option. If Texas or VT wished to do so, they would have to be prepared to engage in an armed rebellion.
Lion,
If you recall from your American history classes at the time the Confederacy seceded there was a very knotty problem for the Union. The Constitution does not directly address the question of the right to secede. The legal basis for getting into the war was when the Confederated fired on Fort Sumpter in the Charleston SC harbor. Fort Sumpter was not a part of South Carolina. When the Federal Government purchased the land for it from SC part of the purchase was a provision that the Fort was to be a Federal Reservation and no longer a part of SC. It was to protect Federal property brought and paid for by the Federal Government that gave Abe Lincoln the basis to march in. Given that precedent should the states you list choose to secede I don't think it follows that they can seize Federal property including military bases. That would have to be worked out in the secession agreement.
While we should never say never it is not at all clear to me that all of the states you list would want to secede. For example, I looked up Michigan and Iowa. Barack Obama won those states. Why would a majority now vote to secede?
For Michigan, only the Upper Peninsula would secede.
I suspect that there is no clear answer or consensus as to whether secession is a viable option. What is significant, however, is that so many people are talking about it. The key question is why any state would want to secede. Secession is closely associated with the right or duty of revolution. This is serious stuff. It ought to make one wonder why so many people are suddenly talking about it in the land of the free and the home of the brave.
John WR Murphy, I don't know that secession is a "silly notion." Granted, it has only been tried once and the Civil War decided the issue back then. But things change. I personally disagree with secession but that is not an objective reason to think that it cannot happen. John
BroadwayLion Do not leave out the Republic of North Dakota! Heck Let MT. ID, WY, ND, SD, NE, KS, OK, TX, AR, MI, and IA all secede from the onion, and from a new nation. Call it "New America". According the the Russian example we get to keep all military bases on our land. We issue the New Dollar (ND₴) and refuse any exchange with US$. You cross the border and you can exchange gold for ₴ at any bank that does assay. You want to buy our oil, gas, coal, grain, corn or meat and you pay in ₴. We only exchange for gold. We have no national debt, and our taxes cover out expenses. PERIOD. ROAR ₴
John WR While we should never say never it is not at all clear to me that all of the states you list would want to secede. For example, I looked up Michigan and Iowa. Barack Obama won those states. Why would a majority now vote to secede? John
It is ture, the LION said MI, but maybe you do not realize that LION thought MI meant Missouri
What it boils down to is the people pulling the wagon want to secede from the people riding in it.
Long live the Conch Republic (railway free since 1935)! "We Seceded Where Others Failed."
OK. But I think the idea that all of the states that voted for Mitt Romney is a bit of a stretch.
John WR Sam, Since you do live in Texas and I don't I certainly respect your opinions of the issue of Texas seceding from the Union. I don't want to make too fine a point of it but it is hard not to notice that 116 thousand Texans disagree with you. True, that is a small proportion of the total number of Texans but simply because other Texans have not signed the petition does not mean they would oppose secession. John
You are correct. You don't live in Texas. And you have no idea of the sentiments of most Texans. Texas, with a diverse population of more than 25 million, is larger than France. It is one of the most diverse if not the most diverse states in the United States.
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