In the post about E Hunter Harrison and the changes at CP it states that several hump yards are being converted to flat switching. Why the change? Hump yards are supposedly more efficient than flat switching I thought.
I will defer to Ed Blysard on the particulars, but a lot depends on the volume of cars and amount of sorts that need to be made.
That efficiency comes with a technological cost., the costs of maintaining the hump process control system - all the switches, retarders and data systems that are what give the hump yard it's efficiencies. Power switches and retarders are high cost, high maintenance pieces of equipment. It requires a high volume of cars being humped, each and every day to make the costs of a hump yard pay for itself and bring a favorable economic return to the company.
What the tipping point in car count is between a hump yard being a productive asset and a financial black hole I have no idea. From the actions of EHH so far in his operation of the CP, it would appear that so called 'lose car' operations will be discouraged. I would take all the announcements that have come from EHH to mean that only unit train type movements will be solicited by the CP in the future. I suspect the existing lose car customers will be encouraged to increase their volumes to unit train levels or they will be discouraged from shipping their products in one, two and three car quantities. If you don't have to assemble and break up trains of 'lose car' customers, you have no need for a hump yard.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Yes, basically, the type of traffic and type of train makes humping obsolete for the most part...plus a lot of cargo cannot withstand the rigors of humping and bumping--even at 2 or less mph. Auto racks, trailers, and containers come under that banner. Unit trains...they don't get sorted and switched...and major blocking also make hump yards unneeded. Plus, there are fewer railroads and lines so fewer selections and sorting needed. I would think that the midwest--Chicago, Memphis, St. Louis, even maybe as far south as New Orleans--might offer need for humping trains, but elsewhere, it would be too much handling, too heavy handed handling, and too costly to operate.
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On Sunday, whilst I was at Taylor, TX, I noticed a crew was switching cars in what appeared to be a process of making up a couple of trains. The engineer would pull forward until he was clear of the switch for the track that he wanted to place car. Then he would back-up rather quickly, make a brake application, and the cars that were to be cutoff would do so and coast into place. On several occasions the cars coupled with the intended cars with a hefty bang.
What would happen to the engineer or person working the back of the train if the engineer shoved the cars too hard, and they derailed when they hit the couplers on the stationary cars?
There would be aych eeee double hockey sticks to pay: drug tests for all on board and on duty, an investigation, charges, lies, cover up, stories, truth be told maybe, and suspensions or demerits and a promise to never do it again...or out right firing.
Hump yards still have their place, when there's enough business to keep them busy. Proviso used to be a really hoppin' place, with 1000 or so cars per eight-hour shift. With the general loss of loose-car freight (Balt, sometimes we have lose-car freight, too, but not nearly as much as we used to!) and the pre-blocking of trains at other places, it's down to around 1000 on a slow day. It's getting to the point where UP will be putting big bucks into it to automate it and reduce labor costs. UP, after it merged the SP, got rid of a few hump yards (Eugene, Oregon, is one I definitely remember), and modernized a few others. It also had to build a new one in Louisiana (can't think of the name right now), which is really a mini-hump, not in the same leagues as a large operation.But obviously CP doesn't have business equaling 1000 cars of loose freight per day at many locations. I remember when Bensenville Yard was a huge hump with 70 classification tracks. That operation was removed sometime around the time the Soo Line first took over. Later, a new hump (much smaller) was built, and now it looks like that will disappear as well.(One has to wonder whether EHH was startled by a retarder when he was young!)
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Sam1 On Sunday, whilst I was at Taylor, TX, I noticed a crew was switching cars in what appeared to be a process of making up a couple of trains. The engineer would pull forward until he was clear of the switch for the track that he wanted to place car. Then he would back-up rather quickly, make a brake application, and the cars that were to be cutoff would do so and coast into place. On several occasions the cars coupled with the intended cars with a hefty bang. What would happen to the engineer or person working the back of the train if the engineer shoved the cars too hard, and they derailed when they hit the couplers on the stationary cars?
I used to watch something similar in Gainesville, GA, on the NS line. It comes slightly uphill, and there's 3 tracks (I think) at the "main" crossing. One track is a lead for a couple local industries, and there's a switch just beyond the crossing. These two tracks go downhill a bit before going back uphill to the industry, thus forming a "bowl". I watched the local crews switch this something similar to a mini hump, going uphill, the engineer would "kick" the cars, the switchman would pull the cut levers and the car(s) in question would coast into the bowl and couple onto whatever was there. The engineer would stop, allowing the switchman to throw the switch, and repeat the process.
One story goes that (years ago) a crew had come in from a run, already on their 12 hour limit, but was asked to "Spot a couple cars right quick". Long story short, they pushed 13 cars on a 12 car track (or something like that), tied up the handbrakes, headed back and clocked out. Next day, they report for work, someone takes them to "assess the damage"; that last covered hopper had been pushed up a 45 degree embankment. It could have been a firing offense, but it was written up as "crew fatigue", working past 12 hours or some such, and the crew was given a slap on the wrist, so to speak.
Brad
EMD - Every Model Different
ALCO - Always Leaking Coolant and Oil
CSX - Coal Spilling eXperts
What you saw that crew doing was "Kicking cars". This is something we do everyday where I work. As far as what happens in a case where something gets damaged, the first thing is to report it. Then the officials come out, pull tapes, get statements and call someone to rerail cars if needed. Discipline gets handed out as needed. Stuff happens...
EHH figures 500 cars per shift consistently for a humpyard to be worthwhile. Which sounds about right to me. Mike Ongerth and his team at West Colton Yard, managed to hump 3091 cars in 24 hours. They needed a lot of things going right to accomplish that. This was in March 1974 a few months after the yard opened.
Let’s start with the difference between blocking and classifying cars.
Blocking cars is exactly that, building up big blocks of cars that are destined for other yards where they will be switched into smaller individual trains(classified) that go out and work the industries.
Carl’s yard, Proviso is a prime example of this; they take apart long inbound trains and switch the cars into big blocks bound for other yards on the system, with a few tracks dedicated to the local industries that are worked out of his yard.
When they were through humping the inbound, it would end up looking something like this…the first 30 cars were bound for yard A, the next 40 yard B, the next 36 for yard C, so forth and so on, and the yard crew will build these blocks up in the departure yard in the order of the yards the road train will stop at in route, where it will drop off the block of cars for that yard.
Because the cars are not going to be placed in an industry by this train, the order in the train for individual cars makes little difference, as long as all the cars for that industry make it into the block of cars destined for the yard that services that industry.
They can be scattered all throughout that block.
Say the block of cars destined for yard A has a bunch of cars for the Shell refinery here in Houston…but they are mixed up with cars for Phillips and Dow.
Yard A is the place where cars headed south are re-switched into smaller blocks for particular cities or smaller flat switching yards like mine.
It makes no difference to the hump yard if these cars are mixed up, say, 3 Shell cars, then 1 Phillips followed by 2 Dow, you get the point.
What does matter is they are in the big block of cars bound for yard A, where they will be cut out in a another block that is bound for Houston, his yard may in fact build up a block of cars for my specific yard.
Hump yards are great for interchange purpose, all the cars that are interchanged to, say NS end up in one or two tracks, are pulled and build up into a solid train for NS to pick up, the particular order the cars are in that block makes no difference, NS will re switch them into blocks to suit its needs.
Classifying cars is close to the opposite of what a hump yards does, the cars are switched into specific or assigned tracks for a particular industry, so all the Shell cars from Carl’s hump yard block will go to a single track, all the Phillips to another track, Dows go in a third…this allows the classification yard to cherry pick particular cars as ordered by the industry, and build up specific trains in a specific order with the required number of cars the customers ordered for that delivery, and it can assemble the local train that works the industries in such a manner that if Shell is the first industry the local train gets to all the Shell cars are on the head end, followed by the cars for the second industry and so forth.
Classification is best done with flat switching, because it involves a lot of single cars going to a lot of different tracks in a specific order.
An example would be if the Houston block of cars rom Carl’s yard arrived here at the PTRA, and the cars are all jumbled up in random order.
Let’s say that some of the cars are “hold” cars, meaning that they will be held in the yard till the customer requires them to be delivered and spotted in the plant.
Some of the cars are hot, ready to spot tomorrow as ordered.
If we humped the block Carl sent us, we would have to drag that block out, and shove it over the hump, cutting all the hold cars out, and cutting all the spot cars out also…now all the hold cars would have to be sorted again, because it is a mix of several different customers cars, so you hump that track to sort the cars out by customer.
Same with the track of spot cars, it still needs to be sorted by customer, and placed in the order the cars go into the industry,
If you hump these, you are looking at possibly 3 or 4 different trips over the hump.
But if you flat switch like I do, I can throw all the Shell hold cars into the Shell classification track first, then stack the spot cars on top of them because the spot cars go out tomorrow, I can even sort the cars out by placement in Shell because I have an option the hump yard doesn’t, I can switch 10, 20, 60 or more cars at a time simply by making a cut in the block of cars delivered.
So I have the option of grabbing small cuts that are easily handled, sorting them quickly into even smaller groups in a specific order…if needs be I can “stash or slough” a few cars off in an un-used track, say a bunch of the Shell spot cars, and go ahead and put the hold cars in the classification track first, then go back and pick up the stashed spot cars and switch them into the track in the order they go into the plant without having to drag a bunch of cars back and shove a hump.
That way, all the cars that are going to remain in the yard a few days are at the back of the track, all the cars that will go out as an industry train are at the front of the track, in the order needed.
Now’s it just a simple matter of grabbing the smaller block of spot cars from each classification track in the order the local train will service those industries, and build up that train in the departure yard.
Cars can change or up-date their status in route too.
A car may leave Carl’s yard with a “hold” status, arrive here and go into the hold track…and sometime tonight the customer changes their mind and want the car included with tomorrow’s delivery so they call our chief clerk and update the car to a spot status.
If this was a hump yard, we would have to drag the track out, shove the whole thing over the hump to dig that one cars out, but in a classification yard that is flat switched, I can reach into the track, cut on that one car, drag the track out, set the single car over to the next track and put all the hold cars back in the hold track, grab the single and go add it to the outbound local in a few minutes.
Hump yards are best at building big blocks of cars destined for other yards, where they may be humped again.
Carl’s yard has a track or two specifically for Bailey yard, which is the biggest hump yard in the US, maybe the world.
A car might have a final destination of Reno…but because there is no direct train from Proviso to Reno, the car has to go in a block that travels to a yard that builds a train that goes to LA, that builds a train that goes to Reno, so that car may travel through 3 different yards, blocked out into a cut bound for the next point where it can be moved to a yard that can sort it into a local.
I know, it seems a simple matter to assign a track in a hump yard for a specific industry, but unless that industry orders cars by the hundreds you’re going to be wasting a lot of track, it makes little economic sense to have a track capable of holding 60 cars and only switch 30 cars into it, and with the number of individual customers there are, a hump yard that tried to do that would need several hundred tracks, and that might not be enough.
Hump yards are designed and work best when they handle a large volume of cars bound for other yards in big blocks, a flat yard or classification yards are designed for and work best because of the versatility that allows them to sort those big blocks into smaller specific groups.
Because of the business CP is after, and because most of their yard to yard trains run long distances, with few customers in-between those yards, going to flat switching yards that can both build the big blocks needed to send on to other yards, and also having the capability to classify those cars destined to the industries close at hand would seem to be a more economical use of the property.
23 17 46 11
The number of cars EHH wants to see in a day over the hump is 1500. All humps at CP are or will be closed except 1 - St. Paul.
Flat switching is a lot of fun. This is where the action is and this is where you separate the good yard crew from the bad. Flat switching requires a knowledge of the terrain where one works, an ability to see moves hours into the future and good physical condition. A crew must prepare for their switching by shoving tracks for space and ensuring the tracks you are switching into are secured properly. You must consider loads vs. empties and size of cuts. In addition you must consider car type and commodity. Shiftable loads, long drawbars or tank cars full of some nasty stuff might require special handling. What is the condition of the track? Straight, curved? All this is on top of what the yardmaster has instructed you to do. Build train 123 in track 1 and 456 in track two and the local in track 20. Once everything is set, you are on your way. You can feel it as a crew when everything is just ticking perfectly. All you should hear on the radio is, "pin..., pin..., pin..., stop. Ahead 10 cars... stop. pin..., pin..., pin..." The yard foreman is pulling the pins and getting nearby switches and his/her helper is playing the field. The helper is busy catching cars, opening knuckles and ensuring good couplings. He/she is also lining nearby switches. This is the real skill in railroading and the yard is where a railroad lives and dies. The main line cannot shut down a railroad (unless there is a derailment of course) but the yard can shut down the railroad if it gets plugged.
Want to talk about drops? That is how you get a car or set of cars from one end of your locomotive to the other end without doing a lot of needless driving around the yard.
In my yard an experienced yard crew can flat switch 200 - 250 cars is 8 hours depending on the size of cuts and how far apart the receiving tracks are. If you have two yard crews 24 hours a day performing at this level, then that is 1000 to 1500 cars a day flat switched. Seems to fit with EHH's 1500 cars required for a hump. With the hump you still have 1 crew 24 hours a day plus a hump manager and so on. I guess the cost of maintaining a hump is more than the cost of a yard crew over the course of a year.
The best humpyards don't depart trains directly from the Class tracks (Bowl), rather a trim locomotive with crew will pull the blocks from the Class tracks and set them over onto a separate Departure track so that the Carmen can connect the brake hoses and make the terminal air test, with the train left on air until the road power and crew arrive.
How much single car business does CP have? I read somewhere (perhaps on the I HATE EHH!) that over 70% of CP carload volume is unit train type movements.
If so, how does that compare to other railroads? CN runs long and heavy single car trains here on the ex GTW...more single car trains than intermodal (3 per day) or unit trains (perhaps 1 coal train per day). These single car trains are fairly costly to operate...but look at the revenue these trains generate. The tariff charges on single car railroading is thru the roof. Thus, CN is ramping up (no pun intended) Kirk Yard in Gary. Each day CN 332 exits with anywhere from 125 to 175 cars and that is just one train daily. CSX is running two trains daily into Kirk and NS is probably running at least one per day. CN has the volume of carloads to justify this.
Ed
Sam1 On Sunday, whilst I was at Taylor, TX, I noticed a crew was switching cars in what appeared to be a process of making up a couple of trains. The engineer would pull forward until he was clear of the switch for the track that he wanted to place car. Then he would back-up rather quickly, make a brake application, and the cars that were to be cutoff would do so and coast into place. On several occasions the cars coupled with the intended cars with a hefty bang. What would happen to the engineer or person working the back of the train if the engineer shoved the cars too hard, and they derailed when they hit the couplers on the stationary cars? Answer: (*) The slack runs in quickly, pray that the couplers do not bypass, if the cut is long enough there is time to get away from the havoc (1) The roadmaster gets one of those annoying 2AM calls. (2) The mechanical foreman gets one of those annoying 2AM calls; (3) The budget takes a hit.
Answer: (*) The slack runs in quickly, pray that the couplers do not bypass, if the cut is long enough there is time to get away from the havoc (1) The roadmaster gets one of those annoying 2AM calls. (2) The mechanical foreman gets one of those annoying 2AM calls; (3) The budget takes a hit.
The class one I work for and the short lines in my district have been adding a lot of car load customers,(even with a bad economy), there are probably more loose car customers now than when Conrail was running things back in the 90's. Loose car load freight is still a big and thriving business, a lot of money has been spent on upgrading and automating our hump yards. I think Hunter Harrison is doing what is needed to make the CP more efficient. Loose car railroading should benefit by smarter blocking and less time spent being classified.
Jim
James Sanchez
jsanchez The class one I work for and the short lines in my district have been adding a lot of car load customers,(even with a bad economy), there are probably more loose car customers now than when Conrail was running things back in the 90's. Loose car load freight is still a big and thriving business, a lot of money has been spent on upgrading and automating our hump yards. I think Hunter Harrison is doing what is needed to make the CP more efficient. Loose car railroading should benefit by smarter blocking and less time spent being classified. Jim
Yep.
I don't know CP's old blocking plan (or their new blocking plan), but just by going from what I've read on this forum it seems Harrison is out to turn Pig's Eye into a "North Platte on the Mississippi" for carload shipments between western Canada and the US.
Everything carload (almost) from western Canada to the US will be sent to one place, Pig's Eye yard in St. Paul. Then it will be sorted out using a hump yard operating with an efficient volume of traffic.
Same thing going the other way. Everything carload gets shotgunned to Pig's Eye for cost efficient sorting.
It simplifies operations and reduces total switching. It improves the service while reducing cost.
Harrison has a proven track record for success. He won't always be right, but the past performance lines indicate that he's the way to bet.
However, the Luddites will always be with us. Resisting any change.
Surely you just thought you saw that obsolete, unsafe practice.
ChuckAllen, TX
cefinkjr Surely you just thought you saw that obsolete, unsafe practice.
Kicking cars is obsolete or unsafe???????
I hope you are being sarcastic (didn't see any smiley faces to guide me). Always great fun to kick empty covered hoppers. That hollow "WHUMP" when they made always brought a smile to my face.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zugmann cefinkjr Surely you just thought you saw that obsolete, unsafe practice. Kicking cars is obsolete or unsafe??????? I hope you are being sarcastic (didn't see any smiley faces to guide me). Always great fun to kick empty covered hoppers. That hollow "WHUMP" when they made always brought a smile to my face.
Maybe he's confusing kicking cars with dropping cars.
Jeff
I’m obsolete?
Oh crap, and all this time I thought I was usefully employed….
Hey, I know where you can pick up a few “slightly” used switch engines at a good price
CN flat switches at Green Bay, Appleton, Neenah, Fond du Lac (kinda bowl-shaped anyway), and Stevens Point. I guarantee that kicking cars happens each place daily. Come work up here Ed!
Dan
Ed will continue to be gainfully employed as long as his crew kicks cars in a safe and efficient manner. It might be a different situation if they botched a drop.
As long as cars fail to roll in the clear, or a strong wind can blow 'em back, even hump yards will need kickers from time to time.
Out of literally hundreds of drops I observed (and a few I participated in), I only witnessed one that didn't go off as planned. Gave me the opportunity to see a poling operation, which was successful.
Carl,
A successful poling operation being defined as one in which the car got moved and everyone walked away with all of their parts and pieces in the usual and accustomed places.
Mac
cefinkjr Sam1 On Sunday, whilst I was at Taylor, TX, I noticed a crew was switching cars in what appeared to be a process of making up a couple of trains. The engineer would pull forward until he was clear of the switch for the track that he wanted to place car. Then he would back-up rather quickly, make a brake application, and the cars that were to be cutoff would do so and coast into place. On several occasions the cars coupled with the intended cars with a hefty bang. What would happen to the engineer or person working the back of the train if the engineer shoved the cars too hard, and they derailed when they hit the couplers on the stationary cars? Surely you just thought you saw that obsolete, unsafe practice.
Huh? I think you're talking about something totally different...
CNW 6000 CN flat switches at Green Bay, Appleton, Neenah, Fond du Lac (kinda bowl-shaped anyway), and Stevens Point. I guarantee that kicking cars happens each place daily. Come work up here Ed!
edblysard CNW 6000 CN flat switches at Green Bay, Appleton, Neenah, Fond du Lac (kinda bowl-shaped anyway), and Stevens Point. I guarantee that kicking cars happens each place daily. Come work up here Ed! it snows up there?
Snow is no reason to stop switching!
This last year, not much. I think Texas got more snow.
Switch brooms are wonderful devices. Or, just keep switching, so the snow doesn't have a chance to accumulate.
Mike WSOR engineer | HO scale since 1988 | Visit our club www.WCGandyDancers.com
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