Why The Goverment should repo Union Pacific!

[Anonymous]

My postion on health care--Why should someone work all there life and save up money
for retirement and for there kids when they pass on (In my case I pay a little into a life insurnce fund which a charity is the benifactor) only to have there assets wipped out by a Nursing Home that forces them to turn over all there assets? And I got this from a Weathy Candaian who in lives in Niagara Falls who has a very nice house.

[Junctionfan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

QUOTE: Originally posted by M.W. Hemphill

Excuse me if I've totally misconstrued your arguments, Andrew, but in one breath you're decrying the control of wealth by a few in the case of Hunter Harrison, and in the next you're advocating control of wealth by a few in the case of Donald Trump. Which is it you want?

Thease men operate differently. I know where Donald Trump stands on business style. He is more interested in building; he said that on Larry King Live. I do not know where Hunter Harrison stands.

As far as I want; if you can't figure out what the basics of my arguement is than you have not been reading my statesment all that well. I have made it quite clear that I expect railroads due to the fact that they are a mode of transportation, should be run as such. Although they must operate like a business, they must also except the responsibility that what they do doesn't just effect the company but the countries they operate. They have an obligation to maintain the business. Too many people worked hard on the railroad and many died for the railroad for over a hundred years. The railroad is not just a business it is a culture and the culture is of the nations it operates in. They are the final big railroads and it is up to them to help the countries sustain its economy. The railroads need help and they need some kind of support. The expression "the bigger they are the harder they fall" is true for any business and so needs to monitored carefully because if one of them falls, it will effect so many industries and workers that have anything to do with that railroad, their will be a terrible surge of unemployement and the economy will suffer. I don't know why you all can't see how dangerous it is for such large transportational networks like the class 1s to run the way they like. In the older days railroads were a dime a dozen. If one shut down there was others close by. The railroad is one of the most important solutions to alot of our countries problems with highway conjestion, air pollution, and other things. That is why I am not willing to say that trucks are the alternative because they are not the best answer to the problems of air pollution or highway conjestion. I hope you can see where I am coming from here, I don't know how I can make myself more clear that the railroads must not fall and that the survival of our economies may very well depend on the railroads' decisions.

After sleeping on it I decided that I wasn't as clear as I should have been so I will remove all diplomatic flowery words and say it as plainly as possible.

Railroads now have gotten to damn big and our countries now depend on the way they exist and how they run things. If the railroad isn't going to do what the country expects them to do which is to service and mainly, than they have no business in owning that company. The railroad has become a vital asset to the countries they are in and if they are going to continue to drop customers and fire people to increase an already large profit, than quite frankly the government should step in and say enough is enough. If they fall apart than the countries economy will suffer and government shouldn't tollerate it. If that means taking control of the company and firing who ever is making the bad decisions that so be it. If the answer is replace Hunter Harrison with Donald Trump; if he can do a better job then so be it. I don't believe in Crown corporations unless that industry is so dependant on by the people and has a near monopoly and the country can't afford that business to go under. Microsoft doesn't count because people can servive without Windows. If for some reason the government needed a particular thing of Microsoft's, they don't need to take it over, they just get rid of the patent but you can't do that with a railroad. Even the auto sector, look how many choices you have-G.M, Ford, Daimler Chrystler, Toyota, Honda, Mitsuibishi etc. Shortlines do not do everything the Class 1s do and so we are more dependant on the Class 1s.

When CN was privatized the government should have said that you can operate privately but remember that you are only 1 of 2 railroads in Canada and the country depends on you to help keep the country running. If you don't operate to the sastisfaction of our voters, than we will take it back off of you and find someone else to run it. Railroads must remember that although the railroads belong to them, the land on which they operate on belongs to the government and the government belongs to the people. If there is too much bad service complaints, excessive unemployement, poor safety record and you can't give a good and logical reason for it that be prepared for the government to step in.

[Anonymous]

Junctionfan:
If you are a prime example of a Canadian college student, then I think that the citizens of the Dominion of Canada should be absolutely ashamed and appalled that someone such as yourself could possibly have matriculated through grades K through 12 and be accepted to an institution of higher learning without ever learning basic spelling, rudimentary English grammar, nor the fundamentals of logical thought and reasoning! Par for the course, I suppose, for a country governed by the fibbing Liberal eastern-based Grits of Paul Martin and their ilk, while raping the resources and wealth of the productive capitalists of the western provinces to support the equalization payments to the lazy and slovenly socialists of the eastern provinces. It's no wonder that "Western alienation" and the seeds of possible separation are mushrooming throughout the great Canadian west, as evidenced by the majority of posts on www.WesternStandard.ca and www.FreeDominion.ca and many other western Canadian websites!

[Junctionfan]

Do you think I am the only one who shares this opinion? Hardly. There are all walks of life that share this opinion. All parties of government share this opinion. Look up on the net or read about a man named Tommy Douglas, who was the founder of our present day health system. Incidentally he was a member of the New Democrate Party in the Federal Parliment. The NDP were not in power and yet his proposal was adopted by the government anyways and has been like this ever since. Majority of Canadian never regretted it today and yesterday.

Is this service just in Texas? Do you still pay medicare and medicade? Is it cheaper, more expensive or like paying taxes? There must be a reason why John Kerry and others are advocating for public health care otherwise he wouldn't be so close to George W Bush in the polls.

Are hospitals before it was underfunded by Mike Harris and Ernie Eves of Ontario was very good for waiting periods. It didn't usually take long for people to get in and most of the time it wasn't colds that were in there. The doctors all know that some times a cough is not a cold. There are other illnesses with the such symptoms and some are serious. Also we are not handed a bill at all. If someones has an illness that requires expensive drugs to keep them alive but they are only a cashier at a store and can't afford them-the government pays for it. If there is any kind of life saving medical or surgical procedures to be done, the government pays for it. When you describe Medicare and Medicade, they sound like insurance. There is nothing more dubious than the insurance business. Let me tell you something that I have found by listening to people who own insurance; they may pull through for you provided you can pay for its upkeep otherwise the insurance company cancels your coverage. That is fine if you own a car forexample and the cancellation is on the car. Your alternative is a bus or a ride from somebody. There unfortunately is alot of people in our countries that are not so comfortable as we are. The U.S and even Canada's poverty rate is climbing and so thease people have to make choices that means they may not eat for a day or so if they pay certain bills. Thease people can not afford medical insurance and so if they have something medical to be done and they can't save up the money for it, what happens to them? By the way $3000 does jack if you have to get an operation that costs over $100,000.

I am not a tax payer because I am a student and they don't make enough money a year to tax as any money I make goes to my collage since it is a government loan which I have to pay back with some interests. I will pay my fair share of taxes when I will be a customs officer. As a concert pianist and composer, I may make it over the $100,000 a year and pay even more taxes. I don't mind this because I know it is for a good cause. Between studing at school and my music and writing my music, I am up all hours of the night often because that is the nature of profession that chose me. I didn't choose to be able to compose music it just happened and decided since it was already there, might as well exploit my gift and see if I can't make a little bit more money too which is not my main goal. I don't care if I am rich only comfortable; I will certainly not go out of my way trying do something for the money alone. Most people if they have the choice, don't just work for the money, they work at the job they do because they enjoy what they are doing.

[edblysard]

Andrew,

There is a public health care system already, its called Medicare and Medicade...

By the way, in Texas, the law says if you show up at a emergency room with a real or imagined emergency, they have to treat you, regardless if you are insured or not.
You can not, by law, be turned away.

Ever been in a emergency room, after, say 6:00 pm?
Wonder why it seems full of parents with their small kids, most of who dont seem to be injured, but almost all seem to have runny noses or bad colds...minor illnesses?

Because medicare will pay 100% of a emergency room visit.
If you show up during the day, the emergency room admitting officer will refer you to your medicade doctors office, where you pay a whoping $5.00...but after regular business hours, they have to treat you in the emergency room, free...

So, you, as a tax payer, are subsidising the treatment of these kids common colds, you foot the bill for the medicine, pay the doctor, the administrative cost, all of it, and the welfare receiver pays...zero...free health care for any and everything.

Average amount a AFDC Mom, with two kids, in HUD housing, and on medicare, receives in federal subsidies per month, over $3000.00 in benifits....

Sorry, I work for a living, and its 5:44 in the morning, so I have to head out to my job..( I know, dirty word there) to help pay for all of this, but when I get back this afternoon, I will give you a simplefied breakdown of what you, as a tax payer, fork out ....you are a tax payer, gainfully employeed, yes?

Ed

[Junctionfan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Andrew,
Just how much stock do you own?
And , rude as this is, in what company(ies)?

I own UP, and BNSF, and I do know the operational detail, quite well in fact.
I check up on UP often, and am quite happy with the returns so far....

Major investors also keep track, and do research...not to many folks I know just throw a few million dollars into a company because the like the color of the locomotives...

UP has a plan, and has been following it pretty good...they will be the biggest Class 1 west of the big muddy, its what we pay them to do.

And if you want to repo UP, well, you better be ready to go after every railroad there is, most have, at some point in time, or in some manner, taken "goverment" money, and in some manner, defaulted on the "loan".

As for the value system you hold so dear, well, with a small, contained population, limited immigration into the country, and a smaller goverment, it works...but surprise, if we even though about something like that here(think DHS, AFDC, WIC an TAFIN) just how big do you think the flood of immigrants into America would become?
They already cross over to have their children here, so citizenship is given tothe kids, and then the whole family comes over to live off the public teet....
Trust me, I worked in the welfare fraud recovery division for my states goverment for a long time.
Social medicine and support dosnt work, not in its current form, nor will it work in the form your describe,
because, I, like most Americans, dont like paying for the up keep of those who choose not to help themselves...

It would appear from this thread you, like many others world wide, seem to think that America, and her citizens, have pockets so deep we can solve the worlds, and our own, by paying for just about anything...just throw some money at the problem till it goes away...

Which seems to be what you were griping about in the first place, the goverment threw money, in the form of land grants, at UP, so they would go away and leave them alone...

Your condeming the goverment for cutting a deal with UP, then asking the same goverment to run everything?


Hummmm

Ed

I don't own any shares at this time as I don't see the need to in order to maintain a comfortable and honest lifestyle where I live. Whether I own stock or has little relevants on me wanting our mass transit systems of freight and passenger movement preserved from those who would exploit it and discard it as if it was as insignificant as a kleenex.

That is good you check up on the railroad's operation. I would hope major investor do so to but do they all. How many really do research and who just do it because their investment brokers said it would be a good idea? What is the percentage of stock owned by the informed major investor versus the percentage of investor not informed? Are they more interested in the company or are they more interested in more shares or more money from them and to hell with the company-ends justifies the means?

As I said, you can't repo UP because that would be like Mexico trying to repo California and New Mexico etc. What I said was that it would have been nice if from the get go (over a hundred years ago), the railroad was owned by just management and the workers and did profit sharing with in the company and not givin to outside investors. Like a cooperative is about-a pool company I think is another word for it.

There are always problems with something that is done by government policy but the answer isn't to do nothing. As far as illegal immigration is concerned, there is nothing you can do really other than keep trying to catch them. In Ontario for example we have a healthcard with photo I.D on it. They did something to the card that makes it almost impossible to commit fraud on. You are not allowed treatment without it.

No one likes paying for the up keep of people who choose not to help themselves. But the majority of the times thease people can't help themselves and I would hope that you wouldn't let them suffer needlessly when you can help them out buying paying a little bit more taxes. If that is all it takes to reduce a child poverty and help reduce people dying because they can't afford the hospital service and the hospitals won't admitt them because they don't have the insurance; than you shouldn't mind doing it because it is the humane thing to do, it is the moral thing to do, it is the Christian thing to do right?

You say that the U.S can not afford to do this. I have evidence that says otherwise.

According to the World Factbook 2001, for GDP per capita at purchasing power parity in terms of who has the richest population on average is Luxembourg at 36, 400. Of course this is a small country in comparison as the second richest was the U.S at 36,200.

According to the World Bank using 2002 statistics, the worlds GDP was 32,252,660,000,000. I am assuming in dollars. Of that the U.S GDP was 10,416,818,000,000 which mean that almost a third of the GDP came from the U.S.

There is no damn way you can convince me that the U.S can't afford a public health system like Canada's. I don't know how the government there is spending money but they most certainly could do what should have. I don't think there are too many first class countries in the world that don't have something like Canada's. Even Great Britain has reversed some of the privatization that Margaret Thatcher did.

As far as who should pay for this well I freely admit that those with the most money should pay their fair share ie people making well over 100, 000 a year. There must be a fair number out there. Let me explain my conclusions from this.

According to Forbes2000, in 2003, the Corporations with the largest profits are U.S owned. In fact the first 4 are U.S owned. Exxon Mobile made 21 billion, Citigroup made 17.9 billion, GE made 15.6 billion and Bank of America made 10.8 billion. Out of that entire list were mostly U.S owned companies that made it in the Forbes list.

[edblysard]

While I agee with you very last statement, I find your first one confusing, at best...
Following your argument, JB Hunt, UPS, FedEx, Delta, Southwest, GM, Dodge,
Volvo/White, Ferightliner, and thousand of others shouldnt be allowed to fail, they are all modes of transportation, and all play a major part in our economy...
so the goverment should prop them up, buy out the money hungry investors, then sell them to the richest people in the world, who should buy them and run them?
Which one?

By the way, how do you think they got rich in the first place, just plain hard work?
I would love to have Trumps portfolio....just a little piece...

Ed

Ed

[Junctionfan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M.W. Hemphill

Excuse me if I've totally misconstrued your arguments, Andrew, but in one breath you're decrying the control of wealth by a few in the case of Hunter Harrison, and in the next you're advocating control of wealth by a few in the case of Donald Trump. Which is it you want?

Thease men operate differently. I know where Donald Trump stands on business style. He is more interested in building; he said that on Larry King Live. I do not know where Hunter Harrison stands.

As far as I want; if you can't figure out what the basics of my arguement is than you have not been reading my statesment all that well. I have made it quite clear that I expect railroads due to the fact that they are a mode of transportation, should be run as such. Although they must operate like a business, they must also except the responsibility that what they do doesn't just effect the company but the countries they operate. They have an obligation to maintain the business. Too many people worked hard on the railroad and many died for the railroad for over a hundred years. The railroad is not just a business it is a culture and the culture is of the nations it operates in. They are the final big railroads and it is up to them to help the countries sustain its economy. The railroads need help and they need some kind of support. The expression "the bigger they are the harder they fall" is true for any business and so needs to monitored carefully because if one of them falls, it will effect so many industries and workers that have anything to do with that railroad, their will be a terrible surge of unemployement and the economy will suffer. I don't know why you all can't see how dangerous it is for such large transportational networks like the class 1s to run the way they like. In the older days railroads were a dime a dozen. If one shut down there was others close by. The railroad is one of the most important solutions to alot of our countries problems with highway conjestion, air pollution, and other things. That is why I am not willing to say that trucks are the alternative because they are not the best answer to the problems of air pollution or highway conjestion. I hope you can see where I am coming from here, I don't know how I can make myself more clear that the railroads must not fall and that the survival of our economies may very well depend on the railroads' decisions.

[edblysard]

Andrew,
Just how much stock do you own?
And , rude as this is, in what company(ies)?

I own UP, and BNSF, and I do know the operational detail, quite well in fact.
I check up on UP often, and am quite happy with the returns so far....

Major investors also keep track, and do research...not to many folks I know just throw a few million dollars into a company because the like the color of the locomotives...

UP has a plan, and has been following it pretty good...they will be the biggest Class 1 west of the big muddy, its what we pay them to do.

And if you want to repo UP, well, you better be ready to go after every railroad there is, most have, at some point in time, or in some manner, taken "goverment" money, and in some manner, defaulted on the "loan".

As for the value system you hold so dear, well, with a small, contained population, limited immigration into the country, and a smaller goverment, it works...but surprise, if we even though about something like that here(think DHS, AFDC, WIC an TAFIN) just how big do you think the flood of immigrants into America would become?
They already cross over to have their children here, so citizenship is given tothe kids, and then the whole family comes over to live off the public teet....
Trust me, I worked in the welfare fraud recovery division for my states goverment for a long time.
Social medicine and support dosnt work, not in its current form, nor will it work in the form your describe,
because, I, like most Americans, dont like paying for the up keep of those who choose not to help themselves...

It would appear from this thread you, like many others world wide, seem to think that America, and her citizens, have pockets so deep we can solve the worlds, and our own, by paying for just about anything...just throw some money at the problem till it goes away...

Which seems to be what you were griping about in the first place, the goverment threw money, in the form of land grants, at UP, so they would go away and leave them alone...

Your condeming the goverment for cutting a deal with UP, then asking the same goverment to run everything?


Hummmm

Ed

[Junctionfan]

Yes I know. It is too late but I wonder how well it could have been if it had done it from day 1. There are alot of small business that operate cooperative structure, in theory the bigger the railroad the more work it is that's all.

Isn't Bill Gates a railfan? I don't know of anybody who bought out his investors to be sole owner of the company. Speaking companies that run well with investor who know the business, Vincent K McMahon's WWE Entertainment-high majority of investors are related some how to the business either as wrestlers, corporate executives or familly of them. They seem to do well with their "educated" investors.

[garr]

Junctionfan,

What you are proposing would allow only the "super-rich" to own large companies. I do not believe the CEO's and upper management of any of the major North American railroads have enough funds collectively to buy out the shares of their companies held by the current investors.

If by some miracle this happened and Bill Gates, Ross Perot, Donald Trump, etc. each owned a railroad, how would it change things? I personally don't think there would be a whole lot of difference from what you see today. Railroading is a mature business and all the individuals named have not really excelled once their companies reached "maturity".

Jay

[Junctionfan]

Investor are owners who don't know the operational detail. I'm talking about CEOs and other high management positions should be owners. If the investors were more concerned about how their investments were being used, maybe the railroad would work better. Unfortunately investors rarely give a damn about how the profit is being made but how much is being made and so they don't understand about needing to spend money here and there. I don't think the investors bother reseaching the companies operation so much as their financial records and even than it is usually done by consulation from the investors stockbroker.

[garr]

jeffhergert,

You are exactly right.

But isn't junctionfan's proposal exactly what Delta Air Line is considering in its attempt to avoid bankruptcy. CNW was employee owned and we see where it ended up (no pun intended).

Jay

[jeffhergert]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

I think railroads would be better of as co-operatives where the profits belong to the owners and workers not investors. Both management and workers make or break the company and tend to be more dedicated and proud of their accomplishments because they both don't have to worry about greedy investor who know nothing on what it takes to run a sucessful mode of transportation. Unfortunately I can't see how the railroads can change their structure now-I believe it is too late to change now and must adapt to the structure that exists until some kind of positive and meaningful solution can be found. I think things that happened 100 years ago is a little silly as I am sure that California, New Mexico and the other states won't be handed back to Mexico as the Mexican War is over.

I thought investors were owners.

[Anonymous]

When all this backsliding occurs, will the Adirondack Scenic Rairoad have to give the trackrights back to the New York Central? Will the Delaware & Hudson reclaim the Upper Hudson Scenic Railroad and the Bloomingdale Bog Trail where I hike & mountainbike? Just would like to know how all this silliness is going to affect my neighborhood. [:D]
Wayne

[espeefoamer]

QUOTE: Originally posted by trainjunky29

How about we just split it back into UP and SP and D&RGW [:)]?

And WP,MKT, and the MOP.[:)];
Maybe combine MKT, Frisco, and MP into a separate system.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M.W. Hemphill

Talbanese: But I WAS having fun!

Mark

Oh! Never mind! Sorry!

[Junctionfan]

I think railroads would be better of as co-operatives where the profits belong to the owners and workers not investors. Both management and workers make or break the company and tend to be more dedicated and proud of their accomplishments because they both don't have to worry about greedy investor who know nothing on what it takes to run a sucessful mode of transportation. Unfortunately I can't see how the railroads can change their structure now-I believe it is too late to change now and must adapt to the structure that exists until some kind of positive and meaningful solution can be found. I think things that happened 100 years ago is a little silly as I am sure that California, New Mexico and the other states won't be handed back to Mexico as the Mexican War is over.

[gabe]

Trainfinder,

In America, a corporation is legally "a person." As a person, it cannot be forced to be liquidated with out due process. I don't like corporations, the commission of crimes that have had their statute of limitations run over 100 years ago, or the complaint that it accepted land that the government gave them is not due-process ground for liquidation.

There are, of course, condemnation proceedings that the government may exercise over a corporation, but they are very restricted.

Furthermore, although corporations have to ask "permission" to exist, the circumstances in which such "permission" may be denied is very limited. It is not as though the government may pick and choose who they allow to form a corporation.

Gabe

[Anonymous]

UP was not exactly a pull up by its own bootstrap have a bake sale to raise money for tracks -Hoartio Alger -enterprise. It recived Millions of acres of free land that the US goverment stole from the Native Americans. The problem here is that the goverment needed to have a railroad and isulate itself from Liability at the Same time.
"Authoritys" were not invented till the 1930s with the Tennasee Valley Authority" and Robert B Moses (1939-1960s). Canada has what is Called a "Crown Corperation". Although they will be at pain to Admit it
All INC. or Corperations have to ask permission from the Goverment to Exist.
On rare ocasions the goverment can step in and ask that there assets be Liquidated or Cease To exist. Arther Anderson was one such Example.

[Junctionfan]

GT was bought by the Canadian government because of economic crisis and stiff competition from the CPR under VanHorne. It didn't help that Charles Melville Hays who was the general manager of GT, made some unfavourable decisions. The GTW had difficult financial problems which forced it into recievership in 1919. Eventually the government decided that since they didn't want CPR to have a rail monopoly, they took over and along a bunch of other Canadian railroads were already the CNR. GTW was a recent aquisition when David Hanna, a former G.M of the Canadian Northern resigned. CNR didn't start to get good until Sir Henry Thornton ran things beginning 1922.

[gabe]

Trainfinder,

I think your two examples make my point (which is ONLY that there are two different value systems in the United States and Canada with regard to government control of enterprise).

1). The government take over of Conrail was viewed as a necessary evil by the United States. I don't think this point can be seriously challenged. Despite the incredible problems that were present when PennCentral folded, efforts were almost instantly put forth to privatize Conrail--plans that were ultimately successful (depending upon your view of success). In lawschool, I had an opportunity to view and write a law journal article about about a lot of the post-Conrail-creation legislative history. It is very interesting just how eager the government was to privitize Conrail. As an aside, the writings surrounding Elizabeth Dole's (Bob Dole's wife) involvement in this process are very interesting--if you are into that sort of thing.

2) I cannot not speak nearly as authoritatively about the privatization of CN, but one gets the feeling that the privitization of CN is viewed by many Canadians as a necessary evil. Although I am not privy to Canadian legislative history, the anecdotal evidence that I have witnessed on here alone would seem to support this position.

My contention is that the starting point with regard to the presumption of propriety was the polar opposite in Canada and the United States.

To further my point with the above-stated health care reference: those opposed to government-run health care have as one of their biggest arguments "yeah, but its the GOVERNMENT!" This is certainly the undercurrent that keeps health care from being privatized. Although, the arguments both for and against this are infinitely more complex on both sides.

JOdom:

I don't really want to start an argument about whether government involvement is good or bad, but I have to admit, I am very empathetic to your argument.

Viewing some of the inefficiencies that I have to put up with everyday in relation to the State, what I would give for the State to have the accountability that major corporations have. All too often the State's solution to inefficiency is not to correct the inefficiency but to raise taxes.

Gabe

[Anonymous]

Okay help me here... How did the Candians get a hold of CN and GT in there First place? Plus are we forgeting that the US feds ran Conrail for 16 years?

[mudchicken]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M.W. Hemphill

Read more history. This is one document of thousands. Have you considered why no historian agrees with the conclusion you've reached? (Note: it's not because they're paid off.)

(1) Amen

(2) Even college history prof.s, jaded as they are, would not buy the argument....

Mudchickens/ surveyors (part measurement scientist, part technician, part historian) learn to gather evidence and study the results carefully. Hanging your hat on one assertion is not something we do - neither should you.[}:)][}:)][}:)]

[Junctionfan]

Are value systems are basically the same except we stayed British abit longer so it has rubbed off on our system abit more. We both share the need for freedom, we vote, we hold religion high and we can be just as capitalist as the U.S.

My remarks were mostly about M.W Hemphill's remarks about public education. You think CN is the only crap job that the government has done-hell no. Air Canada, Ontario Hydro to name a few.

More and more people seem to be more interested in Canadian style healthcare like John Kerry and formal General Wesley Clark. Before it was just Ralph Nader that was big on that but also if you have watched the movie John Q, you know that the demand for public healthcare is there. I am not convinced either that all the Republicans don't think that they should continue the two-tier healthcare. Oh by the way, please excuse my spelling mistakes. Sometimes my train of thought run too quick for me and don't have time to correct either spelling or grammar mistakes before another train of thought come along. My head itself is a busy junction at times.

[SALfan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by trainfinder22

Gee Big Goverment or Big Corperations...What a Choice!
The problem here lies with our Fundelmentilist religios history...Either your saved or your going to hell...Either Your clean and sober or your a complete drunk in the gutter,,
Either your a vestal virgin or your a complete wench...Theres no inbetween no Purgatory here. Either your a Lone Cowboy fight out in his or SUV alone against the world or your a Luddite or Shaker in some commune somewere in Idaho..I will stick with my roman catholic freinds who belive in moderation thank you very much.

I don't trust big corporations either, but at least the necessity to make a profit to survive limits the amount of BS that goes on in a corporation. Trust me, there is no such discipline in government, until services get so bad there is a huge outcry to fix the situation. Even then, the idiot politicians and the special interests (i.e., big corporations)do their best to see that their own sacred cows aren't harmed.

Yes, there are gray areas in life, but at some point one's conduct crosses the line into being wrong. If everyone would cease putting up with people doing wrong, rather than excusing outrageous behavior, the world will be a better place.

[Anonymous]

Gee Big Goverment or Big Corperations...What a Choice!
The problem here lies with our Fundelmentilist religios history...Either your saved or your going to hell...Either Your clean and sober or your a complete drunk in the gutter,,
Either your a vestal virgin or your a complete wench...Theres no inbetween no Purgatory here. Either your a Lone Cowboy fight out in his or SUV alone against the world or your a Luddite or Shaker in some commune somewere in Idaho..I will stick with my roman catholic freinds who belive in moderation thank you very much.

[gabe]

Oh, and a six-percent profit! That is a long way from Enron.

[gabe]

Trainfinder:

See my response to Junctionfan. Not to be confused with contending socialism is better than capitalism, etc, but it simply is not commensurate with our value system and CERTAINLY is not commensurate with the type of government envisioned by our founding fathers. I think you have it backwards with regard to who would be doing the spitting.

Once again though, I am not asserting one is better than the other, just why your answer is not commensurate with our history and culture.

Gabe

[gabe]

Junctionfan,

As someone who doesn't have the time to edit my posts as well as I would otherwise like, I really should be more magnanimous, but I can't resist, it is too priceless:

Your contention: "In Canada public education work rather well." I think this sentence pretty much sums up my response to your argument. Sorry couldn't resist.

In all seriousness though, assuming for the sake of argument that government ownership in Canada works as well as private ownership in the United States, it is not that simple. As Mark has said on more than one occassion, the way a country's business opperates is a direct reflection on the county's value system.

Canada has a different (I am not asserting a better or worse, just different) history and coresponding value system than that of the United States. Even if you could convince the U.S. electorate that a Canadian-style system would work as well or better than our system--an unlikely scenario in itself, which would be rebuked with "there is a reason they privatized CN"--many in the United States consider government ownership an inherent evil.

The United States' history and culture is one of breaking away from big government and distrusting big government/government ownership and involvement; Canada stood by the Crown, Americans were willing to die to get away from it.

This is terribly complicated, has its origins well before the founding of the United States, and I wish I had more time to make my case. I am not contending that "big government" is good or bad, I am just contending that the culture within the United States would see such government ownership as an inherent and corrupting evil and it would never fly.

Gabe