Why The Goverment should repo Union Pacific!

[dharmon]

Very well put Ed..

[PNWRMNM]

Ed,

Well said. You paid more attention to the Canadian claptrap than I did. I like Canada, and most Canadians but can not understand how they can stand so much Government. We have far too much, and they have more.

Mac McCulloch

[edblysard]

That all depends on weather your silly enough to **** off a dragon...

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

White knights protect the kingdom from being set in flames.

[edblysard]

This might clear up some of the confusion,
then again, maybe not,
But here goes...

Our founding father were of the opinion that the less government interfers with the lives of the citizens, the better.

In fact, the original concept was to establish a formal standing Army to defend the new nation, administer the collective executive functions of the seperate states, and establish a federal government to establish limited federal policy to govern those states on a limited basis.

Jefferson, one of the framers of our constitution, wanted to base almost all the legal precepts on a agricultural based soceity, Franklin leaned more towards a industrial based, business orinented idea....
The compromise is what you know as the current constitution, which, by the way, was designed from the begining to be a changable document.
Jefferson wanted to include in it the legal requirement that it be scrapped every 10 years or so, so that each generation would have to start over and write a new one, the idea being that as times changed, the laws should follow suit, with each generation being able to write their own laws for their own times...

Instead, the ability to write admendents, with the necessity of the general populace to vote on, and approve said admendents, was included instead.

So, yes, if the general populace decided on a radical change in policy, then it could happen, but...

Such a change would have to, for lack of a better description, be run through the legal mill, be presented to our congress, pass muster in front of our Supreme Court, so forth and so on.

Andrew, you mentioned the Applo project as a radical change, when in fact, it was no such thing.
Going to the moon took almost ten years to accomplish,and once there, we quit after only a few visits.
Why?
Because we discovered there was no financial benefit to establish a coloney there.
Instead, it was the natural progression of our quest for military supremacy, pitched to the American public by one of our most effective Presidents, JFK.

You also called the civil rights movement a radical change, forgetting that its roots, the American Civil War, was fought almost a century before, with no clear results in the treatment of blacks beyond the establishment of laws that were rarely followed.

Almost every civilization has, at some point, established such laws, and almost every one promptly ignored them.

While I applaude you for supporting, and believing so much in your form of goverment, and it's culture and soceity's value system, I wi***o caution you on passing judgement on the American system, until you become a citizen here, and participate in it.

This is one of the few nations on earth were the individule isn't subordinate to the state, and where individule freedoms don't take a back seat to the needs of the government.
Our nation was founded, in part, on the concept that the right of the citizens come first, before the needs of the government, and that the government was, and still is, a instrument of the citizens will and wishes.

Here, outside military and national emergencies, our goverment can not "pass laws" or alter exsisting laws without the consent of the people.

Also note that almost every single nation on this planet has, at some point in time, borrowed huge amounts of money from our lending institutions and our goverment.
Almost every nation too, has requested of us some form of aid, be it famine relief, military help, or some form of economic help.

Canada itself has dipped into the well of American generosity on occasion, as have most South American nations.
We routinely provide you with economic aid, in some form or fashion.
Trade agreements, the forgiving of debts in exchange for goods or services, the lowering of interest rates to facilitate or ease in the repayment of said debts is common, but not often mentioned in debates.
During WWII, America was the arsenal of the free world, providing weapons, men and material to the Allies in quanities that stagger the imagination, and almost all of it was nevre paid for by those who received it.

I noticed the rest of the world never seems to mind knocking us, and never seems to tire of pointing out what they see as our short comings, but I also note then don't seem to mind eating the wheat we grow, or borrowing our money.
They quickly call on our military might when they get in trouble, yet as soon as we take care of their problem and leave, they dont hesitate to begin calling us imperialist war mongers, or worse.

Frankly, Andrew, your views are very limited by your experiences...not that being young is somehow wrong, but being arrogant and highly opiniated is.

When your view of a hards days work is moving office funiture, and almost having something heavy fall on you is your concept of dangerous, well...

I have lived, briefly, in your country, and found the people there to be the most excellent hosts one could ask for...

But I have also lived in the Soivet Union, Japan, England, Germany, and India, where I learned the true meaning of the concept of compasion, and the horrifying,and destructive power racisim, and the caste system, can have on the human sprit.

I have seen people beaten with bamboo slats, because they allowed their shadow to fall on a person of a higher caste.
I watched a old man being being paid for cleaning out a toilet, with a cup of water from that same toilet, because the owner of the home felt it beneath him to allow this person to drink from the same facuet as he did.

I have seen children in the Sudan, attempting to eat raw grain, because thats all they had.
I have brought three lives into this world,
and taken one mans life away.
And I have been lucky enought to have saved a life also, so I might just be square with God on that one, maybe.

But before you continue to tell me whats so wrong with my country, you might want to tell us what, exactly, you have done to make this world a better place for us all, besides learning how to compose music for the piano.

What did you change in Canada to make it a better place to live?

Which injustice did you redress, and what do you plan to do about all the other un- fair, wrong, and imoral things that happen every day in this world?

I dont consider Americans superior to the rest of the world, nor do I feel I am better than most, neither by birth or caste, color or religion.

But I did find most of your statements on your life experience to be rather pompous and arrogant, and even though they managed to give me a reason to chuckle, they also gave me a reason to pity you, too.

Your secluded life has limited your view of the world, and your lack of experience left you navie.

You called me rude and cheeky, and a barbarian...true through out,,,but then, I have been called a lot worse things, by a lot better people...

You missed almost every thing myself, Gabe, Mark and Limitedclear and others have tried to show you...

That here, in America, there is no guarantee you can or will succeed, no promise of a lifetime of support...but there is the guarantee that the goverment cant force you to fail, it cant decide what you have to be, or limit how far you go, or how much you make, where you have to live, what language you have to speak..

There aren't too many other countries where I could write "The President (George Bush) Sucks" on a public forum, and not have the police knocking on my door later that night.

While I am glad you like living in a soceity where your needs are met, cradle to grave, I am also glad that you, not me, pays so much in taxes to support that system, and live under the limits such a system imposes.

As for me, I will take the barbaric,, backwards, uncouth and impratical ole USA over everyhwere else I have lived.

Because here, I get to tell my goverment what to do, not the other way around.

And, while your claim to fame is having hobknobed with a harpichordest, world reknowned or other wise,

I have had lunch with a Admiral, played golf with a two star General, and taught a Air Force Major to ride a horse.

I have laughingly gone surfing in a hurrican, stood in my front yard and screamed at a tornado, and whispered at a African sunset that defies description.

I have held a old man as he died, and cradled my newborn daughter as she drew her first breath.

I have hunted deer in west Texas, and gone fishing in the sea of Japan.

I have seen the *** camps, and looked at shadows burned into the pavement at Hiroshima.

I did most of this before I was twenty, so your twenty five sound a little dissapointing.

Be real clear on this, you can ask me any question you chose, and if I know the answer, I will glady give it to you, freely and without pause...

But never presume to think for one minute you ever had, or ever will have the right to tell me what to do, how to live, or what to think.

And that, my friend, is the major difference between me and you...
I expect to work hard and long, for everything I get.
I live loud and livley, love fully and completly, and plan to die old, but free, owing nothing to no one....

Ed

[Junctionfan]

White knights protect the kingdom from being set in flames.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M.W. Hemphill

... and laws had to be written first to make it legal, too.

true,...but I don't believe that is such an overwhealming obstacle. As a society we like to pretend our rights are so "secure", that we have "protections" yada yada. But, without going too far off into a sociological tangent, we are also very vain creatures, and as such are particularly suceptable to clever "spin mongering" presented under the pretense that " we can make *this* a better world" by deft manipulators using their favorite ploy......"The Greater Common Good"


Reason why I used that illustration? Well as example that changing the laws is not that hard, ONCE ONE MANAGES TO BUILD THE CONCENSUS that something should be done. Protections for corporate entities, outside of their own deep pockets, are no more secure,..provided a "cause" worthy of action can be established.

As it pertains to UP,....(bet you were wondering when I'd get to that), most of the negative sentiment against UP that I see stems from things such as: 1) they gobbled up someones favorite fallen flag, 2) Modelers are upset because UP rightly decided to protect it's trademark 3) Employees of railroads aquired by UP liked their old jobs with the former way of doing things more than they like the UP way of doing things, and 4) nostalgia buffs resistant to change, disturbed because UP operates the line near their house differently than they used to enjoy.

None of those reasons are very compelling for justification to drag out "the heavy guns" (the greater common good) So, change is unlikely... Let a compelling reason materialize, such as (example) another meltdown spurring hoards of irate customers, some with pockets deep enough for serious lobbying action, and I think laws prescribing divesture could come rather swift (that's my own opinion, anyway).

Absent a worthy cause to "slay" it, dragons are allowed to (and are even expected to) be dragons, but let the perception of a worthy cause enter the picture, and the "white knights" come out of the woodwork, slinging swords and chanting of "the betterment for all".

[Junctionfan]

I am a N.D.P guy and proud of it. I don't really like to think like a conservative too much besides they are no longer conservatives now that MacKay found Harper's butt with his lips to form the "new and improved" "conservative" party.

Even though some of my comments sound conservative, alot of what I say is geared for all the working class. Why can't governments invest in businesses and open crown corporations solely for the purpose of increasing Canada's purse so it can spend more money on healthcare, education and other things without having to choose either raising taxes or cutting services? That is my idea of conservative without betraying the working class and remaining left. No one with intelligence would advocate on staying to one side of the political spectrum on every issue. That is not fence-sitting, it is being wisely flexible. It's not like flip-floping which I did earlier on when I was fairly new to the forum and didn't want to cause an arguement-I won't do this anymore as I failed anyways.

I believe welfare is O.K but needs to be monitored. You see, alot of people can't find jobs too. It's not just bums who don't want to work, it's skilled labourers who can't find the work for various reasons from not being able to find a job in the area (including recessions) to stupid red tape from businesses (you are over-qualified, you are a first time worker and they want previous job experience). If they have a family, their only recourse is welfare or unemployement insurance.

As far as your question, the common sense revolution was anything but common sense. The conservative's stupidity has buggered up Ontario's healthcare, education, energy sector, environment (Walkerton rings a bell), and labour. They have contributed to increases in homelessness and have cause a gigantic increase in property taxes from downloading and inefficient funding to the municipalities. They pretty much caused the major confrontation at Ipperwash from interfearing with the O.P.P as the public inquiry is finding out, they went around blaming problems they caused on everybody else and thease so called "conservatives" still managed to leave over 4 billion deficet in an economic recovery. When Bob Rae was premier (NDP), he left a deficet because he had to help maintain the people's standard of living in a really bad recession and even than he didn't leave that big of a deficit in comparison to the conservatives' crisis of deficit plus the fall out of the "Common Sense Revolution".

[Anonymous]

600 posts Mr Hemphill, are you rigging the numbers- seems like yesturday you were at 35

Andrew- What you posted were all true, However- your looking at it from the Liberal-left

What about the Conservative right?

Remember- the pengilum has to swing on both sides-

Your comparing Two different nations, Canada being very Liberal, And USA being Conservative.

Not that theres anyhting wrong with conservatisim- conserving the past is okay at certain times. there is no progression, and problem solving comes from the solutions given many years ago, and with a vision not to try new things

I'm a liberal- you probobly noticed-

But conservative on certain issues-
but i'm mostly liberal- A socialist, except when it comes to Welfare, then I'm a conservative-

Socialists believe welfare is ok, Canservatives think it needs to be constantly monitored for the gaugers, Like My Friend Ed does or did.

Rememebr, there are two sides to this coin-
And I agee whole heartedly with what you've had to say- I just can't see a radicla change comming.

and you didn't answer my question about Ontario's Radical change from the rest of canada- about dec. 1997 or1995- Do you know what the law is i'm tlaking about?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M.W. Hemphill

Kevin:


What I believe you were proposing is a compulsory spin-off. The U.S. government is highly restricted in its authority to compel a private company to either acquire a unit, or dispose of a unit. If you wanted a compulsory spin-off of a UP component, your first problem is that the laws don't exist to give the government the authority to do this.

There's little to prevent UP's owners from approving a voluntary spin-off, however. You could either purchase enough control of UP to do what you wanted with it, or, you could convince the owners that it was in their best interest. Under current U.S. law, these are your only viable options.

The Bell companies thought it would never happen to them.....

[Junctionfan]

Some times radical change is necessary though. I would remind Americans that the Revolution against the British Empire who was screwing the thirteen colonies for some damn reason, was radical but necessary. The abolishment of slavery against blacks in particular was radical and caused a civil war unfortunately but was necessary. The beginning of railroads which incidentally recieved very generous grants from the federal government was radical but necessary. During the civil war era, the federal government introduced high tariffs on foreign imports making Americans more encouraged to buy American-made goods as they were cheaper now was radical but necessary. You could argue easily that the settling of the west was radical change but necessary. The industrial revolution was radical change but necessary, The founding of the present day unions at one time was big-time radical but necessary, In the old days when folk in the eastern coast use to burn "witches" like candles and were obviously told not to do it any more was radical but necessary thing. The slaughtering of the many Indians which was our shining achievement of shame was radical and at the time was thought to be necessary, The purchasing of Louisiana from the French was radical but necessary, the purchase of Alaska from Russia was radical but necessary, the wright brothers' investion to be adopted as common form of transportation was radical but necessary, Women's rights was radical but necessary, the Apollo space program was radical but necessary, even recently the creation of the Department of Homeland Security was radical change but necessary.

You get my point. The U.S is a country based on radical change which makes me bewildered as to why they wouldn't do something like public healthcare or direct interfearance with the railroads. It maybe against the law but the law can change. It might be a radical change but it might be too necessary to ignore. Radical change is what keeps us moving forward in the world as we can not always continue with the status quo. Good example is the computer which was radical change but it too was necessary. Also I notice that radical change often results from radical situations. Why wait until something bad happens? Why do you think that the government requires large buildings to have some sort of fire prevention? I seem to hear alot of foot draging comments. Although their comments are valid, you can't hold back progress forever. More and more people are concerned now with the issues of present day health care and the way railroads operate as I have seen from articles in newspapers, the news, the political party conventions and so on. It would appear that alot of people in the U.S agree that it is time for a change.

Andrew

[morseman]

two good arguments going on here.......... UP and Canada/US..............just a few words from a proud Canadian in Bracebridge, Ontario........One reason we now have to have our photos on our health card here was because many Americans were coming north and using the cards of relatives or friends to get free health care............Several years ago I thought I was having a heart atack- all the regular systems so. I was immediately admitted to Montreal Gen. Hospital and under observation for two days. Turned out it was only gall-bladder problem. I t was determined that I have all kinds of tests done and entered hospital a few weeks later for the operation. Was in for almost a week . ........About a week later I developed a deep vein thrombosis in my leg and was immediately readmitted and was under medication for a few weeks till things stabalized.................Went home and was off work for three weeks as my body had trouble stabalizing to the cudemin pills. Total charge for all this.......Seventeen dollars (17) this was for a tv I had in my room for a few days which I hardly watched so I had it removed. My wife and I are not wealthy, but living comfortably. What would this have cost me in the U.S. My daugher & son-in-law live in the States and they are on a bare-bones budget and the amount they pay in health care is horendous. ..........(Did I spell that right)??????

[Anonymous]

I'm getting what your saying now-

And I agree with Andrew about Radical change: he can answer this Question:

What law does Ontario have that No other province or place in North America has?

That Law is Radical change!

Andrew. your chance:

[Junctionfan]

Canada doesn't seem to have as many problems with radical changes. The U.S doesn't seem to like major change that is why I don't think UP demerging would be a good idea. If CN does a crappy job with BC Rail and the BC government tell CN to stick it and grabs it back off of them some how, I believe our citizens would be more supportive.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M.W. Hemphill

What's to debate? The split would have to be compelled by the federal government. Since no law exists that authorizes that compulsion, that law would have to be created through a bill introduced in Congress, which would have to pass and be signed into law by the President. Then you'd be off to the courts to argue its constitutionality. As the U.S. Constitution is presently construed and interpreted, I am in great doubt that such a law would be upheld by the courts. The potential that law would have for creating mischief would push just about every corporation, union, and public advocacy group right into the courts, too.

Or did you want us to set all that aside for the moment -- even though without that proviso all discussion is academic and fantastic -- and talk about advantages and disdvantages of a split? First, may I suggest it would be more appropriate to debate the existing law on mergers and anti-trust, and see if that needs to be modified in the general case, before we charge off into a specific case where we're likely to drown in detail of circumstance?

So what your saying Is merging is like taking a chain-saw to butter, but demerging is like taking a chainsaw to a rock?

Why is the process so much more difficult to demerge?

SO once your merged, your in a bind?

Don't like that- Correct me If i'm Wrong Andrew, but demerging is easier then Merging up here- I should know, our city just Demerged from the City of Montreal.

The last Gov't merged us all, But then the liberal Gov't got back in- and they demereged us, with ease, some uproar, but not nearly as much as merging.

UP needs to down scale-

[Junctionfan]

Just to clear up something, I am at the collage taking the law and security program to become a customs officer. I decided to fall back on this instead of being a music professor because ever since 9-11, our countries need help to protect the boarder so I heard my second calling.

[Junctionfan]

I don't think that a split would be good at this time. It has already happened and everything has had to adapt to the whole process including poor Texas with UP and the SP merger. Not to mention you get fall-out if a split is done crappy like Conrail. Unforntunately the only real option is the government and hoping the bureaucrats in our capital cities, know what the hell they are doing. I think the best way of implementing the plan of mine that I stated above if that is what the government felt it needed to do, would have to be that the voters vote in a person who must have the credentials to run, so if he has done a bad job the voter vote him out or can have him recalled. I don't trust our politicians that much though as they tend to appoint folk who don't know what they are doing nor do they really answer to anybody plus they only get the position because they are pals with the guy in power.

[Anonymous]

I was just in St.Cathrines Ontario too-

Saw Niagra Falls and everything

I think I understand were you both are comming from, And i think this whole argument started by a missinturpritation-

Accidents happen-

[:D]

What about my proposal to split UP, no one debated that?

i'm dissapoionted-

[Junctionfan]

English is my only language-spell check or for that matter grammar check, isn't often part of my vocabulary. My biggest problem is that I often lack focus on one thing because I always at some point, think about too many things at once. I often get headaches or migraines because of it.

I type from the heart. Since I see suffering in the U.S too, I want to help in some way by giving an idea what could be done. My heart is in the right place even though I likely need to do alot more research into the issues. As for my music-you might find it interesting. I played some of it to people who were not interested in classical music and they thought it was cool. The title of this gigantic piece for orchestra is The Infernal Nightmare. This quite possibly is the most terrifying piece of music. Makes Ozzy Osbourne look angelic. Stay tuned.

[edblysard]

Andrew,
Not to worry,
Us barbarians have pretty thick skin, so do Texans...
Actually, I didnt take much of what you wrote personal...
I am going to make a assumption here, English is not your spoken language?
I have a good friend, Canadian, whos first language is french.
His frenglish is getting better.
By the way, I am not describing just the scum, or lower case people...there is a entire sub culture who has lived for two generations in this system.
They are born, grow up, live and die, with out ever leaving the system.
No one expects them to produce a thing, other than more children.
And they live up to those expectations.
Look hard at those numbers...they are real.
Should scary the bejesus out of you.

And note, no where did I say the Canadian system was wrong, nor do I think it is wrong, in fact, I think that, for you and your culture, its perfect.
After all, you voted it into exsistence.

The jibes at you were a attempt to get you to think about what you were typing.
And trying to get you to understand that you seem to be commenting on a system, and a country, that you dont live in.

I made no such assumption, nor comments on or about your system, I have visited your country, but as a young man, and, having never lived there, nor been a part of your culture, i am not really qualified to comment on it, nor tell you whats wrong with it.

But, such a complete revamping of the social system cant work in America.

One, there is just way too many people, the cost is staggering.

Two, although I am sure your country has some illegal immigration, it is nothing compared to what we have.

If we made the current system any more liberal, then your quip about Mexico repossing Texas might come true!

Our laws are real clear on ownership of business, the goverment cant, except in some very limited cases of national security, just decide your not doing a good job, and take your business away from you.

No matter how important said business is to the economy.

If it worked that way, there would be no Enron problem.

If the feds "took" UP away from it's legal owners, and appointed Donald Trump to run it, the lawsuits wouldn't be settled for a decade.

We are stuck with our current economic system, its a hard system to change, but you can do it, in small incremental phases.

But you can never create or cause a radical change.

Note that every politican running for office always promises change, but when they are elected, and it matters not which one you elect, things still pretty much stay the same?

Sure, you see small policy changes, but nothing too radical.

Reveloution, on any scale outside of a closed, small system, say, at a college, is a done deal in America....

By the way, the Stay Frosty...means stay cool...its a play on my last name, pronounced like the snow storm,,,Blizzard, only spelled Blysard.

Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Junctionfan]

I am not attacking your family and I sure am not attacking Texas. I don't like being frosty with you but you were the first one to get personal. Till recently the thread was but a respectful and peaceful debate. Since I hurt you I will apoligies because I am not a malicious person by nature and your family sounds like a decent hard-working family and I mean no disrespect.

On to the debate which I will hope will be more friendly now,

You are describing welfare bums. The scum and leaches of the earth who have no interest in being a meaningful and productive members of society. Every country has them regardless of political stripe. To hell with those loosers; I was more concerned about the genuine desearving people who can't make ends meat which I am glad to say was the thing I was hoping to hear from you. I am glad I was wrong about you. Thease are the people who need the public healthcare not some lazy bum who doesn't even have the guts to support his family properly.

Actually I have worked really hard in case you are wondering. Had to pack up and move furniture from a large government office building in one week. One of the shifts was between 6:00am to 2:00am in the morning on the Friday. I almost got injured badly from a heavy metal shelving unit that fell over.

I hope I have done a good job in stopping the tension between us.

Respectfully

Andrew

[edblysard]

By all means, you should be proud of you music skills, I have a hard time reading a chord sheet, although I do manage to pluck out a tune or two on the guitars I make...

And, just so you get a real clear pictue of the barbaric world I come from...
My wife currently is a Enforcement Officer, for the Office of the Attorney General, State of Texas, Child Support Division....

Before I went railroading, I spent 8 years in the Welfare Fraud Recovery Division, Office of the Attorney General, State of Texas...

My job was to find, then document, arrest and prosecute welfare fraud recipents...

My wife enforces the child support laws of Texas, in out of state cases...because of her, thousands of children eat, have school clothes, and a warm place to sleep at night...

Her job entails getting other states to enforce court ordered child support orders from the state of Texas in their states, and enforcing their court orders on absent parents who reside in Texas...

My job entailed hunting down these scum, most of, but not all of whom, were able bodied males who left their children to live off welfare, while they enjoyed the fruits of their jobs, with out paying their court ordered child support.

Or, in the case of children born out of marriage, I found, and enforced court ordered paternity testing, to establish a person as the absent parent, then helped write and enforce the court order for child support.

In the case of welfare fraud, you would be amazed how much money is given away to people who have no physical or mental defect, other than they just chose not to work, because our goverment has designed a system that encourages them not to become employeed.

Mark, one of the reasons your health care cost so much is because, simply put, your are not paying just for you and your family, you are also absorbing the health care cost for over 5 million people, per year, and the number grows larger each year.

Here is a couple of numbers to do the math on...
We will use the county I worked out of, because it is typical of a large metropolitan area...

DHS, (dept of human services) now know as the Work Force Commission, has 50 offices in Harris county.

Each office has, on average, 90 case workes to certify people for welfare benifits.

I am using the generic terms here, each state has its own name for welfare and the services provided, but all the funds come from the feds....

So, you have 50 offices, with 90 workers, thats 4500 employees whos only job is to certify someone to recieve goverment benifits...

They are required to see and process one case per hour, they work 8 hours a day, thats 36000 cases per day.

Granted, most of the cases are not new cases, but re certification, and not all of them receive the full benifit package, the monthly checks, food stamps, HUD housing allotment, light bill cap, daycare, medicade certification, and clothing allowance.

But, according to the numbers from my wifes office as of friday, one in every four cases in Harris county are new cases, applying for all the benifits allowed, so thats 9000 new cases every day.

Here are monthly the dollar figures...
Per child, $162.00.
Caregiver, $264.00
Food stamp, based on a percent and age of recipent, averages out to $300.00 per person per month.
Hud Housing, also based on number of children, up to 90% of the rent of the unit.(feds pay 90%, "renter" pays 10%.
Light bill cap, max charged to recipent, $50.00 per month.
Daycare, provided free to the recipent, including transportation to and from, and a lunch for the child..(remember, parent(s) are unemployeed, and stay home all day,but they need daycare??)
No set figure, depends on where you want you kids to go, but you dont pay...
I pay my youngest childs daycare, bet on $119.00 per week, or $476.00 per child per month.
Health care, recipent is ceritfied for medicade, means they pay $5.00 per doctors visit, and $5.00 perscription fee, regardless of the number of perscriptions, they only pay the first $5.00, period.
You, the taxpayer, pay the rest...

So, lets use the typical welfare recipent family.

1 mother, dad is absent parent, (not really, he lives with them, but has no job, and no plans to get one)
3 children, two from other fathers, no marriages for mother.
So, you have $264.00 caregiver
$1386.00 for 3 kids

Food stamps,
$1200.00 4X$300.00
Housing $640.00
Housing average $650.00 two bedroom apartment in any complex that receives federal funds for anything, minus the $10.00 recipent pays, .
Light bill cap, $260.00, minus the max the recipent pays, $50.00.

Daycare, paid 100% $1428.00 (3X $476.00 per child)

No figures for medical cost, havent gone into the DHS database, and this quarters figures are not yet published, but just look at your medical cost, lets use Marks figure, rounded off to $1100.00 per person per year, that s
$4400.00 per year, or $366.00 per month per family...


Ready?
This is per month...family of 4, mom and three kids....you pay this for them.
$264.00 monthly check for caregiver (mom)
$1386.00 monthly check for 3 kids
$1200.00 Foods stamps
$640.00 rent
$210.00 light bill
$1428.00 daycare
$366.00 Health care.

$5494.00________ you pay, per month, to support them.
thats $65928.00 per year.

Not to shabby for a family with out a job...

9000 new cases per day, in Harris county alone.
9000X $5494.00, means in one day, you give away over 4 million dollars in federal money, in one county, in one state, in one day.

Starting to go numb?
Add it up for the entire nation....

Look at it for eight years.....I got numb too.

My wife is on her 11 year with the agency.

She has enjoyed her job more than you could imagine...she gets the missing, or absent parent to pay their fair share of the children's support.

I enjoyed my job for a long time, I made the cheaters pay back what the stole, through their fraud, and I got to find the scum who abandoned their kids.

So the money I recovered could go to the ones who really do need it, the kids who's parents dumped on them.

I have zero tolerance for someone who can work, and chooses not too.

I have zero tolerance, and zero pity for those who father children out of wedlock, and then leave them with the mom,( or dad sometimes) and go on their way.

I have zero tolerance for those who think, because they breath air, they are entitled to get something for free, when so many who have no choice in their circumstances, parantage, or status at birth, and who need, really need soceity to look after them, go with out the basic human needs, food, cloths, and a place to sleep out of the rain, all because some jerk is too lazy to get a job, and has figured out it easier, and more profitable, to live off the system...

Oh, and trust me, the figures I put up here are real, they came from the last recovery case I worked, the recipents were a white, 25 and 26 year old un- married couple, with three kids, who were commiting fraud.

They all were living together in a HUD apartment in the Woodlands, drove a LEASED Lexus and a Jeep Cherokee, registerd to his ex wife, went to Lake Charles, LA, to play the casinos once a month, and were surprised as all get out when they were ordered, by the court, to pay back their debt, at $240.00 per month.
They were in the system for over four years...

Although they were forbidden to re enter the system, I am sure by now they have managed to do so, do in part to the fact that the workers at DHS do not have the time to check the applicants out.

If you walk in, they can not, by law, refuse to assist you.

Mark could walk into a DHS office, with my kids, tell them "my girlfriend split, and left her kids with me", and he would walk out with a emergency check, a Lone Star card(food stamps), a HUD voucher for a months rent.

No check on his story, his SS#, Drivers license#, nothing.

He will, of course, have to go back the next month and re-certify, but by then, he will have come up with a false SS#,(wont be checked) and a out of state DL(no check there, either)

They will take the info, file it, and go on about business as usual...Mark only has to go back every three months to re certify.

Unless Mark does something that trips the computerized system into asking for a audit, none of his info will be checked out, there is just flat out too many of them to check each one.

There are randome audits, but not many.

Sounds too easy to be true, dont it, but thats how it works.

Of course, being a barbarian, it shouldnt bother me...
too much...

By the way, Andrew, I am 45, and have been employeed, full time, since I was 14.
Never made it to college, had to support myself fully from 17 on.

I have never collected un-employment, or welfare, in any shape.

My wife is *9, and has been employeed since she was 18.

She is a part time college student, going after her bachelor's degree in computer languages, full time mom, and full time Child Support Officer.

We dont qualify for any goverment "student loan", we paid for her schooling, along with raising 3 daughters, ages 5, 11 and 17.

We are such barbarians that our 11 year old daughter was chosen, along with 10 other kids, from her public school system, HISD, the fourth largest school system in the USA, to be a student ambassador to the UK this summer.

Real barbaric folks, us Texans...

You really need to stay in the insulated world you currently live in, the real world will consume you, and you cant really understand that nothing, absolutly nothing in life is ever free....everything there is is paid for by the sweat off of somebodys back, no matter how free you think it should be.

I hope your music career is succesful, you seem to be one of those people who feel sweating for a living is somehow beneath you...

Because if you dont make it composing....your in for a world of hurt, and a real big surprise when you find out your textbooks were a little wrong...

Stay Frosty,
And I really mean this...
Good Luck..
Ed



.

[Junctionfan]

U.S has the advantage of more industrial development and a greater GDP than Canada. Plus in Canada, majority of industries are U.S owned or they do most of the business with the U.S because they depend on the U.S so the U.S dollar is worth more and ours is not so good. If you look at the U.K for example, their pound is even worth more than the U.S dollar and alot of "essential services" there is government run plus I believe the taxes there are higher than in Canada.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

I don't know how you do things in the U.S but in Canada public education work rather well. So does public health and some medicare. Ontario Northland isn't too bad and most of the hydro companies other than Ontario Hydro, are not bad either. There is alot of things over in Canada that run good or good enough by the government. In Ontario, liquor is distributed by the LCBO-Liquor Control Board of Ontario-so youths can't get easy access to alchol. We pay alot of taxes but it is worth it. You may pay alot of taxes in your life but heart surgury, children's education from Kindergarden to Grade 12, certain medicines are free. If it works for Canada who has a smaller population and less GDP than the U.S, why wouldn't work for a more wealthy country like the U.S?

I always assumed that the heavy tax burden "enjoyed" by canadian citizens was elemental to the horrendous exchange rate between US and canadian dollars? What is a canadian dollar worth in us currency these days? Then you pay something like 15% sales tax on most things purchased?

If that is the cost of progress, I'm happy to be a knuckle dragger...

[Junctionfan]

You seem to like living in a world with greed and lack of caring. Let's see how you do as a poor person without a job and trying to support a familly. You think that your attitude is exceptable human behaviour. I think it is barbaric and inhumane as well as dismissive to the needs of others. You have some cheak telling me basically that my profession means jack **** to others. What do you know about my work-nothing. I am to be 25 on the 9th and I have been working at various places like a furniture store, library, and have done daycare. I also have done volunteer work here and there. I am proud what I have done with myself right now. I am respected by fellow musicians and I am even known to world reknown harpsichordist Colin Tilney. My mentor is a formal student of Wanda Landowska and Greta Kraus (famous harpsichordists) and was one of the few friends that Glen Gould had. I think I am doing quite well for myself.

Your insults mean nothing to me as your arguements are nothing but irrational, morally base garbage. I am glad people like you make up a small portion of society.

[edblysard]

Read, then re-read you postings...
It finally clicked...
A liberal arts student going to college on a goverment loan, which you seem up set about having to pay back with interest...(pssstt..thats called capitalism, profit from money only, nothing produced...)

Your what, 20?

Never had any job that required you to actually work, beyond punching keys on a cash register at the local hambuger joint or Stop and Rob...

One thing that is glaring clear,,,your favorite word is "I"...

When you grow up some, and get out in the cut throat world of professional music, come back and argue your points a little better, so far, you ought to have a bunch of splinters in your fanny from sitting the fence.
You seem to want all the benifits, with none of the work....
and have no idea how the real world works....
Your concept of the "haves" are obligated to share with the "have nots" just because they are the ones who "have" wealth is, well, silly...
You will get eaten that way.
The idea that sucessful people should, by goverment fiat, be allowed to run important business, based only on the concept that they somehow have skills or knowledge above others is , silly too...

By the way, the AFDC program, (Aid to Families with Dependent Children) is a federal program, nation wide.
Medicare and medicade are also federal programs, one is for those chronic unemployeed, the other is a health insurance suppliment for older, or disabled Americans.

And by the way, UP will not fail, nor will BNSF, NS, or CSX.
They will, can, and do adapt to business changes...
The idea that any business is so important that the goverment has a moral right to "take over" siad business is, by the way, a concept that has been kicked around here in America a lot of times...
So far, other than weapons manufacturing, and some aspects of the nuclear program, it hasnt been very sucessful...

Our laws make it quite clear, no matter what the business, if you own it, then its your to screw up as much as you want...till your broke or fired...

Law of nature, the fittest survive, weak fail...
That happen to be one of the basic laws/concepts in any business, including paino playing, and composing...
Write and play cruddy music, no one will listen to it, or buy the C/D...

You should change the quote in your profile to...

"If the trains too short, the goverment will take you over"

Good luck.
Ed

[jeffhergert]

QUOTE: Originally posted by agentatascadero

Let's see: capitolism values Money, socialism values.... people. When capitolism "commoditizes" us all to the grave, where is the value of all the money which was made in doing so? Unfettered business is in no way user (spaceship earth) friendly.

Socialism values people. Shining examples: the former Soviet Union, Red China, Cuba.
The capitolist system is not perfect, but you don't see many people literally risking their lives trying to defect to China or Cuba. However, you do see those who want to leave those workers paradises.

[agentatascadero]

Let's see: capitolism values Money, socialism values.... people. When capitolism "commoditizes" us all to the grave, where is the value of all the money which was made in doing so? Unfettered business is in no way user (spaceship earth) friendly.

[Anonymous]

Your all using Really big words- So i'm going to dumb down the argument

Look what History Tells us-

Rome- too Big, Collapsed- 756 Ad or so- She fell, after being split in two already (Eastern roman Empire and the Western Roman Empire-)

Thats what happens to A lot of things. The Regional School board here; Lester B Pearson School board, in charge of Elementray and Secondary public schools in this area Became a Giant after consuming 2 other school boards-

big whoop, right?

Well- after that, Money got so far stretched- they couldn't afford to change light bulbs- The same friggin one was flickering above my head for six months, and I reported it umpteen times.

The bigger you get, the further you have to stretch money-

SO if we devided UP into NP, SP, EP, and WP, and made them hate each other, so they wouldn't talk to each other, share the same office space, or the same block for that matter- Would the generate more money? Would money Go firther- Ofcourse it would, smaller Quarters, Smaller circulation zone- Things get fixed when they need to-

I look at the School board that used to run my school- New frontiers School board- 3 schools they were in chrage of, THREE! not Lester's 500- THREE you better believe they had money comming out of the Umphalumpa we had resource teachers, spare this teachers, spare that teachers- Teach me how to teach teachers, Teaching teachers, And all the kings horses, and all the kinds men- Not a crap run Lester school-

SO Yes i can see were he is comming from; Get to big collapse-

Cough.. ROME...cough

Now I see the word Socialisim appear above;

Yeah...and?

what does that have to do with Trains Demerging?

Jimmy Hoffa was good at Stuff
Houdini made things dissapear
And Jack the ripper was good at slicing people up

you lost me in that part of your argument

[Junctionfan]

Let me give you an example from my freelanced railroad the Greatlakes and Atlantic. This railroad supposedly runs through out the eastern states and Ontario and Quebec. Now with a railroad that big I run supposedly 400 trains a day and serve hundreds of customers as well as employ over 15,000 workers. If I start dumping my customers like a large autoplant and they can't operate without rail, they will have to either move the operations puting hundreds if not thousands of people out of work and making them have to go on umemployment of welfare; or they downsize the workforce which has almost the same effect, or they have to ship by truck and thus the city is plagued by extra air pollution and major traffic increases that they may not have the infrastructure to support. Either way the government either has to spend money on unemployment, welfare or increase road capacity and maintaince cost. My railroad just cost the some of the people jobs and now they along with other citizens will have to pay higher taxes for this because I wanted to maintain my forecast. Also to remember that if an industry relocates from a city, that city is now without the revenue that they would normally be collecting taxes from them and so now the city has to raise people's property taxes to make it up.

Knowing this, you can see why the government needs to be more involved with the railroads because as I have shown, the decision of the railroad effects us all.

[Anonymous]

When all this backsliding occurs, will the Adirondack Scenic Rairoad have to give the "trackrights back to the New York Central? Will the Delaware & Hudson reclaim the Upper Hudson Scenic Railroad and the Bloomingdale Bog Trail where I hike & mountainbike? Just would like to know how all this silliness is going to affect my neighborhood.
Wayne"
----------------Um Actauly trails under the railbanking act can go and have to go back to the railroads when they need it. There are a few Light Rail and Commuter rail projects that have done this. But you need not worry because the Saratoga Commuter Rail is a long way off