Federal judge orders Davis to provide an identical tractor trailer and following trailer to AMTRAK & UP so they can analyze all types of operation of the vehicle.
http://www.rgj.com/article/20111101/NEWS/120622013/Federal-judge-orders-trucking-firm-provide-truck-Amtrak-inspection?odyssey=nav%7Chead&nclick_check=1
I loveone line in the Article a Lawyer from the UP went to the Judge and asked so we can SEE the PARTS in a OTR Trucks Braking System. Excuse me doesn't UP have a few Air Braked Trucks in ITS OWN Fleet they could have used for this like a MOW truck or something. At Least Davis is getting ITS HANDS on the Onboard Video Footage for its Attys to go over. That should be real Interesting as the UP was screaming NO we do not want them to get that along with the NTSB why is it bad for the RR or something.
Sorry when I had my Fatal accident all the Plantiff Atty did was look at the Maintance Records not need to remove wheels off another truck and such. UP and Amtrak better pray like HELL that there is nothing WRONG with that truck after they are done with it otherwise one HELL OF A CAN OF WORMS is going to get opened up BY THEM.
I would say that the title of this thread is rather misleading because it sounds like it means losing the case, especially when posed as a headline. The so-called lost battle is just a loss in a minor dispute over producing evidence within the trail. The article also cites a similar loss on the part of UP/Amtrak over revealing the locomotive event recorder data.
I certainly agree with the trucking company’s lawyer in that UP and Amtrak should go out and procure their own truck rather than make the trucking company provide one.
What is meant by UP/Amrak’s lawyer saying they want to take off the tractor’s tires to “see with the brake assembly is like” ? Are they referring to the tractor that was in the crash? I thought that got pretty well destroyed in the crash and fire.
OK changed title good point !!
edbenton I loveone line in the Article a Lawyer from the UP went to the Judge and asked so we can SEE the PARTS in a OTR Trucks Braking System. Excuse me doesn't UP have a few Air Braked Trucks in ITS OWN Fleet they could have used for this like a MOW truck or something. At Least Davis is getting ITS HANDS on the Onboard Video Footage for its Attys to go over. That should be real Interesting as the UP was screaming NO we do not want them to get that along with the NTSB why is it bad for the RR or something. Sorry when I had my Fatal accident all the Plantiff Atty did was look at the Maintance Records not need to remove wheels off another truck and such. UP and Amtrak better pray like HELL that there is nothing WRONG with that truck after they are done with it otherwise one HELL OF A CAN OF WORMS is going to get opened up BY THEM.
I suspect what Amtrak & UP are looking for is if the Maintenance Record accurately reflects the truck & trailer selected from the Davis fleet. No trucking company WOULD EVER fudge it's maintenance records, and if you believe that one there are a lot of other things you would believe. Maybe Davis does do a good job of maintaining their vehicles - maybe they are like a lot of trucking companies that operate in a very narrow geographical area and are running on shoe string budgets and have been known to cut corners when it comes to maintaining their equipment. I can surmise what Amtrak and UP are thinking.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Look at it this way, if the truck Davis supplies has perfect brakes, with lots and lots of brake shoe material left, then Amtrak and UP can ask during trial "Is that is a typical representation of all of the Davis fleet?", and if the answer is yes, the next question the railroad will ask is, "So, why are the brake shoes on the tractor involved in the accident so worn?"
Not saying they were worn out, but I doubt the shoes were brand new on the tractor involved in the accident.
If the tractor has what I would consider normal wear on a brake shoe, and the shoes from the accident truck are worn, same thing applies...and I doubt Davis will provide a tractor with bad or worn out shoes, so...
Makes perfect sense to try and get your hands on a tractor from the fleet you are suing, if you could.
If this was, say a Buick from Avis rent a car; wouldn't you want your attorney to be able to compare the car from the accident to another of the same make from the Avis fleet to see if there are any discrepancies?
Just as it makes sense for Davis to want a copy of the video and even recorder tape, surprised they didn't ask for the same info from any other accident to have something to compare it against, along the lines of when did the engineer go to emergency braking, how long did it take to stop, was the train within the speed limit, did the horn blow correctly, so forth and so on.
Gather enough evidence during discovery, and often a trial becomes un-necessary, settlement can and often is the result.
23 17 46 11
Ed , it is always comical of the so called "safety experts" inspecting a truck ( OTR or others). The last Red Oval I bought was randomly pulled over in Ind. after 4 mo. of service.Then the cartoons began, as known the frame and other parts are painted black. After grovelling under the cab , he said all the brake hoses were cracked . So said truck was "red tagged". Lawyer was called and Red Oval service rep appered. It was proven that just the paint was cracked from rain and slush splashing on the lines . Lawyer threatned suit for delay of time freight. Red tag removed. E.T.A. extended to destination because of ignorance. NO Trains were harmed or delayed or blocked crossings in this matter.
Respectfully, Cannonball
Y6bs evergreen in my mind
Okay, I see. They want a duplicate tractor and trailer from Davis’s fleet, and they want to look at the brakes on that duplicate. They cannot look at the brakes on the equipment in the wreck because it was destroyed. I had misinterpreted the article by Jaffe saying that UP/Amtrak should go out and find their own tractor trailer if they want to look at one. I thought they were just asking for a facsimile to see how the brakes worked.
In any event, I can surely see why the UP lawyer would want to discover everything about Davis’s truck maintenance. I guess it goes without saying that Davis has a duplicate to the truck that was in the crash. But as for evidence, I would not be surprised if Davis truck brakes are in A-1 perfect condition these days.
At some point, I am guessing that the truck manufacturer’s engineers are going to be called to explain how much distance it would take to stop that truck at 70 mph if the brakes were within proper specs.
Here is a Listing of things that will get a Carrier and a Driver Points under CVSA 2010 that will lead to them being Shut down Lights being out lack of Spare Fuses Missing Mudflaps and Missing Reflective tape all of them are NON Out of Service Conditions or OOS from here on out and weighed X5 on the Inspection. Here is a Small Listing of things that get you Placed OOS and have a Weighing on 7X on the Inspection reports Brakes to Thin Brakes Out of Adjustment Tires Less than 2/32 of Tread left Tires Improperly Inflated Wheels loose or cracked Suspension Members Cracked or Missing and the list is about 10 Pages LONG that will get you placed OOS. Now do you think a carrier that plays with Rocky Mountain Doubles is going to Screw around on Maintaince Issues THEY ARE NOT going to Risk it. Hauling Combos that can weigh up to 105K Gross in Nevada and also on some of the Steepest Roads is not something to Screw around on.
Since the Accident the DOT has been Hammering them and in 71 inspections they have had 8 total OOS Violations Word to the wise their OOS Rate is Better than Swift, Schienders, and JB Hunts and Englands. They do have a Higher Maintance Basic it high but when your getting inspected every week it seems and they are looking for anything to ding you on they are going to find anything they can to write you up. Sorry but Not one of the Inspections listed and I am going to give you a Direct link to their Safer Score shows any major issues on the Tractors the Trailers that get beat to Crap however have some but still compared to Container Chassis I see pulled around here they are Pristine. http://ai.fmcsa.dot.gov/SMS/Data/carrier.aspx?enc=D1v40pJn+eZu4yUTFJlPVW667waVcl+AinHxHGQKf9s= UP needs to look at some of the Chassis they force drivers to use if they want to see Bad Brakes sorry some of those Chassis should be sent to the Scrap heap not sent out on the road. Most of the Brake issues they do have are for Missing ABS warning lites and Brakes out of adj sorry even a Auto Slack will not get them all.
Any carrier that can go 24 years between Audits is doing SOMETHING right most carriers can not make it past 3 years they made it 24 years. Think about that.
edbentonHere is a Listing of things that will get a Carrier and a Driver Points under CVSA 2010 that will lead to them being Shut down ...Brakes to Thin Brakes Out of Adjustment...
Edbenton,
If you compare truck brakes in brand new condition versus brakes worn to the maximum legally permissible degree, is the stopping distance the same during maximum braking effort?
Or does legal wear reduce brake effectiveness?
Here is the NEW Standard that went into Effect in August of 2011 and the Standard for an Emergancy Brake app under all Condtions is 720 Feet and if your Plated to weigh more than 120K lbs your Excempt from that per the Federal Goverment due to Saftey Standards and that was from 55 MPH. What was the Distance on he left Skid Marks 300 Feet there was No way he could have stopped under the OLD or NEW Standards. www.fmcsa.dot.gov › Rules & Regulations Brakes are in Part 121 so we are looking at a Bad Crossing Design any way you cut it there was NO WAY he could have stopped.
The Design specs are that there is Equal Brake Power on the life of the pads until you hit the Rivets at 1/4 of an inch and then you lose some power. Why most Brakes on OTR trucks last 300-400K miles and cost with labor and parts about 1 Grand an Axle to replace.
To give you an idea on the Maintance Costs on an OTR truck for a year that runs 110K miles in a normal Year just for Oil Changes the owner will spend close to 2 Grand just on changing the Oil on the truck. If it needs Tires for 18 if he buys New he is in the area of 9 Grand if he looses a Clutch that is about 3-4 grand installed Tranny is about 5 grand for the Reman Transmission alone. Differantials are about 2Grand Each. Then you have the Engine that is 15-25 grand to Overhaul it if it blows. Those are repairs you know are going to be needed. Then you have the Unschedualed repairs all the Sensors that break at about a Grand Fuel Injectors at 2 Grand Each installed and other wear and tear Items. Most O/O set aside 2=4 cents a mile to cover breakdowns. The amount a truck can need to keep it running that if they do not break the Owner can buy either a fully loaded Dually Pickup for him or a Brand New Caddy for his wife if he has a good year on Repairs. That give you an idea.
Cannonball,
I seriously doubt the folks from UP will even lay hands on the tractor provided, or do much or have done much beyond look at the leftovers from the tractor involved in the accident.
What they will do is hire a private repair company to inspect the comparison truck, take photos of the parts they are interested in, show those photos to a professional mechanic, compare those photos and parts to OEM ones bought new, get statements from the manufacture of the parts, and of that make and model of tractor in regards to what they, the manufactures consider safe or within limits, what they recommend for replacement parts, stuff like that.
I am using brake shoes as an example only, but during negations, they will place a new OEM shoe on the table, the recovered shoe from the accident, or a photo of it, and a photo of the shoe from the tractor provided by Davis, and use the differences as leverage in bargaining...any single item they can find that differs greatly from the OEM and any item on the truck in the accident and the truck provided by Davis can mean the difference between litigation in court or working towards a settlement.
It isn't that the UP and Amtrak guys don't know how a tractor trailer rig works, they certainly do, but it is about trying to find a significant known defect or a significant lack of maintenance on the part of Davis.
Using brake shoes again as example only, but what if they discover Davis was using aftermarket brake shoes instead of OEM shoes, and the aftermarket shoes could be shown to wear out faster, or not provide as much braking force as the OEM parts, (which won't be hard to do) then they have way to show Davis was cutting cost by using brake shoes that were not as good as they could or should have been.
After that, all they have to do is prove Davis knew the shoes were not as good as OEM, and knew the shoes they were using didn't stop the truck as well or fast as it could have been stopped, and they have a good point to raise in court....juries do listen to stuff like that, and pitched right, it can make a case.
There might be the chance the railroad attorneys don't know the difference between air brakes and air bags, but bet your bottom dollar the professionals they hire to do the inspection and testify do, and can back it up in court.
What they are doing right now is simple looking for leverage.
switch7frg Ed , it is always comical of the so called "safety experts" inspecting a truck ( OTR or others). The last Red Oval I bought was randomly pulled over in Ind. after 4 mo. of service.Then the cartoons began, as known the frame and other parts are painted black. After grovelling under the cab , he said all the brake hoses were cracked . So said truck was "red tagged". Lawyer was called and Red Oval service rep appered. It was proven that just the paint was cracked from rain and slush splashing on the lines . Lawyer threatned suit for delay of time freight. Red tag removed. E.T.A. extended to destination because of ignorance. NO Trains were harmed or delayed or blocked crossings in this matter. Respectfully, Cannonball
Most of the shoes are Remanned by Rockwell themselves and only use OEM Materials. There are 3 Axle makes out there Spicer Eaton and Rockwell/Dana. They all use a differant Shoe and can not Be interchanged and Rockwell has about 95% of the Market why they are the Easiest ones to install and last the longest.
Just some of thoughts on this topic:
1. In the event of a 'major' incident ( loss of lives and heavy property damages) involving motor vehicles. A couple activities will happen:
a. Commercial driver will be advised that there must be a urine test, or if incapacitated, a blood test of that individual. (This mist be done almost immediately,timely, and promptly, as possible). Refusal can mean Termination of Job, and its' protections.
b. The enforcement agency in charge of the incident will have the ECM on the vehicle removed/confiscated(?), and taken to a location to test the information in its memory. The data stored can be downloaded and processed for behavior prior to the incident.
[an ECM memory will yield a memory of at least 7 days; data will include engine RPM records.etc.]
a. Length of time at what range of rpm ( this info will cross validate the Drivers Hours of Service, as logged)
b. Episodes of Hard Braking ( an indicator of driver following traffic too closely.)
c. How long the engine was operating from previous shut down ( again, Testing Drivers Log Book information)
2.The lawyers wanting to see a duplicate rig to the one destroyed in the aforementioned Highway/Rail grade crossing incident.
A.Theatrics on their part to support a courtroom situation.
B. Produce a film for use in the courtroom ( a staged reconstruction?)
a) Staged reconstruction of an incident is a widely used, legitimate tactic to demonstrate to a jury/judge the on-scene dynamics, as closely as possible the circumstances of what took place.
b.) Staged reconstructions take place in many cases in the aftermath of fatal incidents, and are a useful too, to determine the percentages of liabilities of the involved parties and their vehicles, as well as the contributions of those to the severity of the accident.
If further interested, here is a link to ECM's and Heavy Diesel Engines applications:
Suggestion see page 7
www.harristechnical.com/downloads/ECM_Field_Guide.pdf
edbenton ...the Standard for an Emergancy Brake app under all Condtions is 720 Feet and if your Plated to weigh more than 120K lbs your Excempt from that... and that was from 55 MPH. ...so we are looking at a Bad Crossing Design any way you cut it there was NO WAY he could have stopped.
...the Standard for an Emergancy Brake app under all Condtions is 720 Feet and if your Plated to weigh more than 120K lbs your Excempt from that... and that was from 55 MPH.
...so we are looking at a Bad Crossing Design any way you cut it there was NO WAY he could have stopped.
So, just to make sure I understand you: Was the Davis truck plated for over 120,000 lbs.?
And if it was plated for over 120,000 lbs., does that mean that the emergency stopping distance at 55 mph is 720 feet?
And if it was plated for over 120,000 lbs., does that mean that the emergency stopping distance at 70 mph is greater than 720 feet, but the actual distance is unspecified?
Current and Past FMCSA part 121 Regs are if a Vechile is plated for more than 120K lbs then they are Excempt from the 720 foot Emergancy stopping Distance. Why is Simple trying to stop that much weight that fast in a Semi Full trailer combo with 3 articulation points is going to end up with a W in the Highway and load all over the Place. Not a pretty sight to see. However teh Guys that drive this stuff at that weight are considered the Best of the Best and for the most part have decent Driving records plus have Years of Experiance BEFORE hauling them. This is not a job for a Steering Wheel Holder fresh out of a CDL mill these jobs go to a guy that has about 750-1Million miles + OTR in all types of weather and has seen about everything on the road.
What I am trying to learn is the shortest stopping distance at 70 mph for the truck involved in the Nevada crash. Is that distance in excess of 720 feet?
For the truck he was in for the weight he is was plated at my guess is empty with a set of 2 trailers your looking at roughly 900-1000 FEET to get it to stop in an Emergancy situation without either having a Jacknife or ending up with the trailers Rolled on their Side along with the Tractor and a Bigger mess with the Enviromental issues from the Fuel. I had someone that code decode vins look at their Setups and he is in Agreement with those figures when EMPTY as they have a Load Compensator on them to prevent lockup on the Brakes even with ABS it could happen. Empty Trucks stop worse than LOADED as their is LESS Friction on the ground and they will WHEEL HOP LIKE A SOB UNDER HEAVY BRAKING. Sorry but short of an Anchor there was NO WAY HE COULD HAVE STOPPED from the time he saw the train at all.
Most grade Crossings are designed to give a max of 600-700 feet warning at Highway speed TO SHORT A DISTANCE HERE. This Crossing needs have a Longer warning ZONE like a 1/4 mile so the Double Trailers that use it CAN STOP.
edbenton For the truck he was in for the weight he is was plated at my guess is empty with a set of 2 trailers your looking at roughly 900-1000 FEET to get it to stop in an Emergancy situation...
For the truck he was in for the weight he is was plated at my guess is empty with a set of 2 trailers your looking at roughly 900-1000 FEET to get it to stop in an Emergancy situation...
From what has been reported, the warning zone for the Nevada crossing was about 900 feet. If the truck stopping distance was 900-1000 feet, it looks like I am going to have to revise my 2.9-second warning calculation in the Nevada thread.
Ed, thank you for the return post . Mr. Benton and I have had encounters with DOT folk . Sometime it is irritating , then comical . For the most part DOT don't like to be wrong , they are there for a reason , good or bad which ever way you look at it.
NO trains or crossings were harmed or blocked here.
Cannonball
Bucyrus From what has been reported, the warning zone for the Nevada crossing was about 900 feet. If the truck stopping distance was 900-1000 feet, it looks like I am going to have to revise my 2.9-second warning calculation in the Nevada thread.
Hmmm.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
From looking at teh Specs of Davis trucks they are setup for 135K when they are pulling Doubles so they are at the max for a set of Doubles in the USA. Now to stop that combo empty fast your going to be needing an Anchor you can DEPLOY as they are going to wheel hop and or be swinging side to side so hard that he would have been lucky to have it down from 60MPH to about 30 MPH in the time he had with my guess. He could Not have stopped unless he Rolled the truck and even then He might still have still taken out the CZ with a trailer that whipped into it. Can you see the problems he faced.
Makes you wonder why they are legal.
Bucyrus I would say that the title of this thread is rather misleading because it sounds like it means losing the case, especially when posed as a headline. The so-called lost battle is just a loss in a minor dispute over producing evidence within the trail. The article also cites a similar loss on the part of UP/Amtrak over revealing the locomotive event recorder data. I certainly agree with the trucking company’s lawyer in that UP and Amtrak should go out and procure their own truck rather than make the trucking company provide one. What is meant by UP/Amrak’s lawyer saying they want to take off the tractor’s tires to “see with the brake assembly is like” ? Are they referring to the tractor that was in the crash? I thought that got pretty well destroyed in the crash and fire.
OK, things may have changed since I worked for IH/Navistar, but back then there were very few "standard" highway tractors produced. A trucking company would commonly "Spec'" its equipment. That is, they buyer would provide the manufacturer with specifications for buiding the vehicle.
The whole drive train could be "Speced". Different engines, different transmissions, etc.
This was a combination highway vehicle being operated with one Peterbilt tractor and two trailers manufactured by builders that haven't been mentioned. Who knows what their specifications where?
UP/Amtrak can not simply go get a Peterbilt tractor of the same model and year with any assurance that what they'd be looking at was similar to the vehicle involved in the crash.
As to the video. From the newspaper article it was the NTSB that didn't want the trucking company's lawyers to see it. Why? I don't know. The railroads don't seem to be involved in that issue.
Been legal for longer than the Interstate Highway system has been Around. They have been used for about 70 years in the Western States and are Very Common in Canada also and have a Better Saftey Record than all other OTR trucks. Why they are restricted to certain Routes Certain States and require Experaince to Drive them. Drivers of them are not IDIOTS and take their JOBS Very Carefully. Drivers of these are where the Carriers that Pull Explosives like to get their Drivers from if they can. When your hauling a Full Set of Doubles like these guys do your eyes are at least 1 mile AHEAD of you at ALL TIMES and your thinking 30 secs ahead plus remembering that your braking distance is around 9-10 Football Fields long. Your not going to be Tailgating someone Speeding or weaving as any movement is Amplified over the distance of the trailers.
When I drove I felt safer when I was around one of them than ANY Car Driver or any Trainee as the drivers of these trucks I knew they WERE NOT GOING TO DO ANYTHING STUPID with their Rigs.
They are also inspected more often by Mechanics and their Drivers and also the DOT than you think. This carrier runs 4.4 Million miles in a year and had 21 OOS on 71 inspections in a Year. They run all that distance in the State of NV alone. Yes they need to be better in Maintance Hell every carrier needs to be better in that but it is hard to do that in real world. However the Driver has to INSPECT all equipment everyday and turn that in also the Equipment has to be INSPECTED annually to make sure it is safe. Also most Companies have a Maintance Schedulae of about 2 months they rotate everything in for needed service. So they can repair what is needed.
Dump trailers like they run get beat to hell in a hurry as they are getting stuffed Dumped into them and also hit by Equipment and stuff. They are the Gondolas of the OTR industry. Also with CVSA 2010 some of the Inspections they got where Breakdowns and the issues found where from the Breakdowns that happened on the side of the road like a Blown tire taking out the tail lights do not laugh it happens. Tire Blows it can and will destroy the back end of a trailer. I saw a steer tire blow and take the entire HOOD off a Pete before. So things happen out there that will get drivers points that were working before when they left the yard and then they hammered by the DOT.
Last summer, during the thread, Is Amtrak Crash Nevada’s Fault?, I had some communications with Nevada DOT, and I was told that they were committed to public communication on the accident regardless of the legal ramifications. After I sent them my analysis showing a total warning for the truck driver of 2.9 seconds, they did not answer any further communications from me.
My point in that thread was that 70 mph speed limit, combined with such a heavy truck, resulted in a crossing with insufficient warning time.
The engineer of the Amtrak train involved in the collision agrees with my conclusion, and he has publicly said so.
Yep the State and the NTSB know they are so Screwed on this one and that the Crossing is BAD meaning that the State could be on the hook for all the Damages in this one and they are SCARED of it. Think about it driver of the truck HAD NO TIME TO STOP COULD NOT SEE THE TRAIN TIL TO LATE AND ALSO GATES WHERE TO LATE TO WARN HIM. Boy I would love to be a fly in the room of this one right now.
Bucyrus The engineer of the Amtrak train involved in the collision agrees with my conclusion, and he has publicly said so.
Commenting on a case you are involved with like this in public? Good way to get fired, sued, or both.
edbenton Dump trailers like they run get beat to hell in a hurry as they are getting stuffed Dumped into them and also hit by Equipment and stuff. They are the Gondolas of the OTR industry. Also with CVSA 2010 some of the Inspections they got where Breakdowns and the issues found where from the Breakdowns that happened on the side of the road like a Blown tire taking out the tail lights do not laugh it happens. Tire Blows it can and will destroy the back end of a trailer. I saw a steer tire blow and take the entire HOOD off a Pete before. So things happen out there that will get drivers points that were working before when they left the yard and then they hammered by the DOT.
Had a tire tread separate on my race car trailer at road speed - broke the drivers side mirror and left rubber marks all over the side of the vehicle and sounded like a heavy duty gun shot when it happened. There is tremendous power potential in any tire at highway speeds, more so for OTR truck tires.
On thing I haven't see mentioned - was the driver of the rig 'local', had he been driving over this particular crossing multiple times a month in making his normal runs or was this his first time in the area and thus having no prior knowledge of the crossing.
I was behind one trailer that had a left rear outside tire blow and saw it rip the mud flap right off the trailer, tail lights get popped out then it went through my grill ... it was a bit of a surprise...
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
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