Deadly Sleep Disorders

[jwhitten]

 

 

Folks, this thread is sinking into the depths. Nothing wrong with the topic per se, but the level of civil discourse has declined to a point where it would be best to lock this thread. If you want to try again, feel free. Just do it in a new thread please.

 

John

[Anonymous]

One of the organizations dealing with this sleep disorder issue for railroaders is the North American Rail Alertness Partnership.

 

http://narap.org/

 

Here is a part of the site that goes into detail about sleep disorders:

 

http://narap.org/educational/sleep.php

 

In looking at the NTSB report on the Iowa crash, they do recommend to the FRA what they want to see done about the sleep disorder problem.  It is not really outside of the box at all, just plain common sense.  You just find out who has sleep disorders and who does not. 

[BaltACD]

Murray

This is really what lack of sleep can result in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sH_gnmXmrtA

 

When 'toons were really 'toons!

[Anonymous]

This is really what lack of sleep can result in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sH_gnmXmrtA

 

[samfp1943]

Bucyrus

I should mention that this thread is based on my interpretation of this NTSB synopsis in which last year’s Iowa collision on the BNSF was found to be due to a medical disorder in both members of the crew.   

 

http://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/2012/red_oak_ia/index.html

GET READY FOR IT!

 

One of the major contributing factors besides FATIGUE, is a condition  called   OBESITY!

Look for the Food Police to get into this as as they are into school lunches.    Next they'll want to put exercise machines into locomotive cabs....The faster the engineer peddles, and the Conductor suns on his Stair Stepper, the faster the train will run.....

[blownout cylinder]

[Anonymous]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUupnvWbcFw

 

 

 

[Anonymous]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_47KVJV8DU

 

 

[blownout cylinder]

Murphy Siding

 

Bucyrus:

 

.................. That is the preferred official regulatory institutional solution to the problem.  It is the medical-scientific-federal behemoth of examination and treatment   that is explained here:

 

http://cryptome.org/fra100104.txt

 

And here:

 

http://www.dcmsonline.org/jax-medicine/2001journals/april2001/shiftwork.htm

 

     I can't help but notice that your radio only gets one channel.

 

Quite so....

[blownout cylinder]

Which is done here..where I work.

Our training programs go into exactly what 'sleep deprivation' means..both for the employer and for the employee. There are specific hours set for shifts. We do not do the swing shift scenario here for example. There is a computer graded questionairre which is then gone through with the trainee and the trainer..the idea being that IF s/he is found to be at-risk that s/he is told to get the situation dealt with before they begin work with the company. 

Oh...and by the way...no one in HR is allowed to put trainees into any job until they have completed ALL training steps. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

As far as some of the out of the box scenarios go...one thing that caught my eye recently was a trailer for a movie called...PROMETHEUS...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwW650UiqFU

David8 is basically an android..if you will...

 

[henry6]

There's no "Magic Bullet"; and there ain't gonna be one.  Judging from what I've read, and the comments here, it is going to be a 2x4 slammed into the forehead in the form of redoing the way things are done. There are going to be requirements and tests and oversight to see that the requirements are met both on and off the job.  Show up without having slept or not having met the rest requirements means you don't work...I don't mean there'll be a monkey at each corner of your life, but you will have to toe the line to stay employed.  Do it right and you will work the days and hours you want to work and will be paid a proper wage and have a peace of mind that you will be safe because all others will be as safe as you; you know you will work as scheduled and not have to stay near a phone with your gear packed in the corner ready to go on a moment's notice.   Shock to the employers, too...they have to provide the best working conditions and safety standards and pay for the quality and safe workmanship in a safe working environment; and they will have to pay for it, too.  But they will always have a fully rested and quality crew available for any and all assignments to do the work efficiently and safely with reduction mishaps that close lines and demolishes equipment and infrastructure; they won't have to compensate for loss and damage, and will have more satisfied customers who also won't have to deal with losses.

[Anonymous]

Yes there are some elements of self reporting, but overall, it seems to me that the intent is to find out which employees are afflicted by sleep disorders, and either cure the disorder by treatment or take the employee out of service.  That is the only objective that can possibly match the seriousness of the problem that has been found. 

 

But I do sense some equivocation in language that seems to go back and forth between volunteering and requiring.  I think the explanation is that this is maybe eight years old, and, at that time, there was not a clearly developed screening tool.  So they encouraged employees to come forward on their own volition in order to fill in the blanks on what the screening misses. 

 

I assume that by today, they have made advances in the development of the screening tool, and continue to make advances.  Ultimately, this will be just like drug testing, except vastly more complex.  That is why I think the ultimate solution will be the technological monitor of wakefulness, which zugmann has dubbed the “Magic Bullet.”     

[henry6]

See what I've outlined in red below...a lot falls on the shoulders of the employee 
and all is suggestion and not required actions.  In effect, this is a classic case of 
the inmates running the asylem!

Bucyrus

Henry,

 

I do not understand why you conclude that the remedy will be for the employee to self-diagnose and treat himself.  That is far from how I interpret it.  Here is how the FRA will fix the problem:

Recommended Actions

 

    Therefore, FRA recommends that railroads and representatives of

employees, working together, take the following actions to promote the

fitness of employees in safety-sensitive positions:

    (1) Establish training and educational programs to inform employees

of the potential for performance impairment as a result of fatigue,

sleep loss, sleep deprivation, inadequate sleep quality, and working at

odd hours, and document when employees have received the training.

Incorporate elements that encourage self-assessment, peer-to-peer

communication, and co-worker identification accompanied by policies

consistent with these recommendations.

    (2) Ensure that employees' medical examinations include assessment

and screening for possible sleep disorders and other associated medical

conditions (including use of appropriate checklists and records).

Develop standardized screening tools, or a good practices guide, for

the diagnosis, referral and treatment of sleep disorders (especially

sleep apnea) and other related medical conditions to be used by company

paid or recommended physicians during routine medical examinations; and

provide an appropriate list of certified sleep disorder centers and

related specialists for referral when necessary.

    (3) Develop and implement rules that request employees in safety-

sensitive positions to voluntarily report any sleep disorder that could

incapacitate, or seriously impair, their performance.

    (4) Develop and implement policies such that, when a railroad

becomes aware that an employee in a safety-sensitive position has an

incapacitating or performance-impairing medical condition related to

sleep, the railroad prohibits that employee from performing any safety-

sensitive duties until that medical condition appropriately responds to

treatment.

    (5) Implement policies, procedures, and any necessary agreements

to--

    (a) Promote self-reporting of sleep-related medical conditions by

protecting the medical confidentiality of that information and

protecting the employment relationship, provided that the employee

complies with the recommended course of treatment;

    (b) Encourage employees with diagnosed sleep disorders to

participate in recommended evaluation and treatment; and

    (c) Establish dispute resolution mechanisms that rapidly resolve

any issues regarding the current fitness of employees who have reported

sleep-related medical conditions and have cooperated in evaluation and

prescribed treatment.

    FRA acknowledges that some of the above recommendations may have

already been institutionalized in one form or another by various

segments of the industry; in this case, FRA suggests a review of

current policies and procedures for relevancy.

    FRA believes that the recommendations set forth above, if

implemented by industry parties, could advance the successful

management of sleep disorders. Taken together with the results of FRA's

broader study of potentially impairing medical conditions, lessons

learned could provide a sound foundation for more formal action by

industry, government, or both.

 

 

 

.

[Anonymous]

Henry,

 

I do not understand why you conclude that the remedy will be for the employee to self-diagnose and treat himself.  That is far from how I interpret it.  Here is how the FRA will fix the problem:

Recommended Actions

 

    Therefore, FRA recommends that railroads and representatives of

employees, working together, take the following actions to promote the

fitness of employees in safety-sensitive positions:

    (1) Establish training and educational programs to inform employees

of the potential for performance impairment as a result of fatigue,

sleep loss, sleep deprivation, inadequate sleep quality, and working at

odd hours, and document when employees have received the training.

Incorporate elements that encourage self-assessment, peer-to-peer

communication, and co-worker identification accompanied by policies

consistent with these recommendations.

    (2) Ensure that employees' medical examinations include assessment

and screening for possible sleep disorders and other associated medical

conditions (including use of appropriate checklists and records).

Develop standardized screening tools, or a good practices guide, for

the diagnosis, referral and treatment of sleep disorders (especially

sleep apnea) and other related medical conditions to be used by company

paid or recommended physicians during routine medical examinations; and

provide an appropriate list of certified sleep disorder centers and

related specialists for referral when necessary.

    (3) Develop and implement rules that request employees in safety-

sensitive positions to voluntarily report any sleep disorder that could

incapacitate, or seriously impair, their performance.

    (4) Develop and implement policies such that, when a railroad

becomes aware that an employee in a safety-sensitive position has an

incapacitating or performance-impairing medical condition related to

sleep, the railroad prohibits that employee from performing any safety-

sensitive duties until that medical condition appropriately responds to

treatment.

    (5) Implement policies, procedures, and any necessary agreements

to--

    (a) Promote self-reporting of sleep-related medical conditions by

protecting the medical confidentiality of that information and

protecting the employment relationship, provided that the employee

complies with the recommended course of treatment;

    (b) Encourage employees with diagnosed sleep disorders to

participate in recommended evaluation and treatment; and

    (c) Establish dispute resolution mechanisms that rapidly resolve

any issues regarding the current fitness of employees who have reported

sleep-related medical conditions and have cooperated in evaluation and

prescribed treatment.

    FRA acknowledges that some of the above recommendations may have

already been institutionalized in one form or another by various

segments of the industry; in this case, FRA suggests a review of

current policies and procedures for relevancy.

    FRA believes that the recommendations set forth above, if

implemented by industry parties, could advance the successful

management of sleep disorders. Taken together with the results of FRA's

broader study of potentially impairing medical conditions, lessons

learned could provide a sound foundation for more formal action by

industry, government, or both.

 

 

 

[henry6]

Bucyrus

So far, we have learned the shift work sleep disorders are caused by working nights on a continuing or prolonged basis; or by working a series of shifts with each shift in the series being in a different portion of the clock.  This is a serious problem than can cause a person to lose attention, which can result in a workplace accident.   

 

This is a medical problem that can be diagnosed and treated to some extent.

 

So far we in this thread have come up with two ways to fix this problem (one of which is outside the box):

 

1)      The Pool

 

2)      The Magic Bullet

 

 

There is also a third way.  That is the preferred official regulatory institutional solution to the problem.  It is the medical-scientific-federal behemoth of examination and treatment   that is explained here:

 

http://cryptome.org/fra100104.txt

 

And here:

 

http://www.dcmsonline.org/jax-medicine/2001journals/april2001/shiftwork.htm

In otherwords: teach the employee to self diagnose sleep problems and do "something" about it.  This is like saying, "take two asprin but don't call me in the morning".  The responsiblity falls on the employee to decide he shouldn't work today while his wife, family, and the bill collectors are saying he's got to work!   Absurd at best, ineffective at worst.  Makes no sense because it does not sovle the problem just shoves it off on the guy trying to feed his family and pay his bills...in effective and not fair.

 

[Murphy Siding]

Bucyrus

.................. That is the preferred official regulatory institutional solution to the problem.  It is the medical-scientific-federal behemoth of examination and treatment   that is explained here:

 

http://cryptome.org/fra100104.txt

 

And here:

 

http://www.dcmsonline.org/jax-medicine/2001journals/april2001/shiftwork.htm

     I can't help but notice that your radio only gets one channel.

[Anonymous]

So far, we have learned the shift work sleep disorders are caused by working nights on a continuing or prolonged basis; or by working a series of shifts with each shift in the series being in a different portion of the clock.  This is a serious problem than can cause a person to lose attention, which can result in a workplace accident.   

 

This is a medical problem that can be diagnosed and treated to some extent.

 

So far we in this thread have come up with two ways to fix this problem (one of which is outside the box):

 

1)      The Pool

 

2)      The Magic Bullet

 

 

There is also a third way.  That is the preferred official regulatory institutional solution to the problem.  It is the medical-scientific-federal behemoth of examination and treatment   that is explained here:

 

http://cryptome.org/fra100104.txt

 

And here:

 

http://www.dcmsonline.org/jax-medicine/2001journals/april2001/shiftwork.htm

[henry6]

Trippers are ok at signals...but what about unsignaled territory?  Trees, grade crossings, other obstructions, violation of speed limits and unplanned or otherwise dangerous situations demand, having a person awake and mentally alert to respond without having to take a long time to ascertain the situtation, decide what action to take, and decide to take action. 

[Murphy Siding]

zugmann

Bucyrus:

 

 

 

Oh that’s okay.  We have to have somebody inside of the box in order for there to be a box that we visionaries can be outside of.   

 

 

Oh, brother!

 

Excuse me while I vomit.

     Please don't vomit inside the box.

[zugmann]

Bucyrus

 

 

 

Oh that’s okay.  We have to have somebody inside of the box in order for there to be a box that we visionaries can be outside of.   

 

Oh, brother!

 

Excuse me while I vomit.

[zugmann]

 

trippers wouldn't have mattered in this crash.  From what I understand, they were running on a restricting signal.

[BroadwayLion]

IT'S CALLED A "TRIPPER"

If the signal is red, the tripper is up, otherwise it is down. If you pass a red signal your train is tripped, and stops. In the old days, you had to go down to the roadbed to reset it. Now they can be reset automatically after the trains stops. You are *supposed* to report being tripped, something akin to writing yourself up, but now a days, the black box will tell on you anyway, and you could be on the street for not reporting it. Besides, there are many reasons to be tripped besides a tripper.

The tripper is painted yellow. The trip valve on your train is painted white. White marks on the tripper, or yellow marks on your trip valve spell trouble, but you could also be tripped by trash or dead animals.

In any event, this is not new technology, it is well over 100 years old in fact, and it has stopped lots of trains preventing accidents and deaths.Even if you are asleep, if your train is tripped, you will wake up again.

In the modern idiom it is called "Positive Train Control" and can be accomplished using GPS together with your signal system to shut down a train that passes St. Signal.

 

ROAR

 

[Anonymous]

Ed,

It is true that the crew had not been diagonosed with a medial disorder involving sleep.  Nevertheless, the NTSB finds a medical disorder without any medical diagnosis.  At leaset that is how I read it. 

[Anonymous]

edblysard

Not quite correct, what the NTSB stated was ....

•1.     Based on their medical histories, both crewmembers on the striking coal train were at high risk for sleep disorders and fatigue.

• 2. Based on the conductor's and the engineer's irregular work schedules, their medical histories, and their lack of action before the collision, both crewmembers on the striking coal train had fallen asleep due to fatigue.
• 3. Had the two crewmembers on the striking coal train completed the BNSF's fatigue training program, they would have had the opportunity to learn that they were at risk for sleep disorders, particularly obstructive sleep apnea, and the computer-based training program would have displayed a message advising them to consult with a physician.

It does not specifically state they had been diagnosed with a sleep disorder by a doctor, nor does it conclude they were in fact  suffering a disorder, only that they were at "high risk".

It does make a definitive statement to the effect they were asleep.

Bucyrus:

I should mention that this thread is based on my interpretation of this NTSB synopsis in which last year’s Iowa collision on the BNSF was found to be due to a medical disorder in both members of the crew.   

 

http://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/2012/red_oak_ia/index.html

 

 

 

 

 

Ed,

 

I understand your point about the report only saying that they were at risk for sleep disorders.   But the report also says this: 

 

“Based on the conductor's and the engineer's irregular work schedules, their medical histories, and their lack of action before the collision, both crewmembers on the striking coal train had fallen asleep due to fatigue.”

 

That is what I base my conclusion on that the NTSB asserts that both crewmembers had fallen asleep. 

 

[blownout cylinder]

3. Had the two crewmembers on the striking coal train completed the BNSF's fatigue training program, they would have had the opportunity to learn that they were at risk for sleep disorders, particularly obstructive sleep apnea, and the computer-based training program would have displayed a message advising them to consult with a physician.

And herein lies the crux of the whole thing.

Obviously someone circumvented the training program and stuck these two on to this very thing.

My company has this very style of training program..for precisely these types of reasons. These employees would never have been allowed to drive any vehicle for this very reason...First..training...then if there computer based answers come back as at risk then they would have been taken out of the scenario until such time that the issues..if any..were dealt with.

There would not be a need for an all encompassing system because we would not be jumping to conclusions ....

[edblysard]

Not quite correct, what the NTSB stated was ....

•1.     Based on their medical histories, both crewmembers on the striking coal train were at high risk for sleep disorders and fatigue.

• 2. Based on the conductor's and the engineer's irregular work schedules, their medical histories, and their lack of action before the collision, both crewmembers on the striking coal train had fallen asleep due to fatigue.
• 3. Had the two crewmembers on the striking coal train completed the BNSF's fatigue training program, they would have had the opportunity to learn that they were at risk for sleep disorders, particularly obstructive sleep apnea, and the computer-based training program would have displayed a message advising them to consult with a physician.

It does not specifically state they had been diagnosed with a sleep disorder by a doctor, nor does it conclude they were in fact  suffering a disorder, only that they were at "high risk".

It does make a definitive statement to the effect they were asleep.

Bucyrus

I should mention that this thread is based on my interpretation of this NTSB synopsis in which last year’s Iowa collision on the BNSF was found to be due to a medical disorder in both members of the crew.   

 

http://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/2012/red_oak_ia/index.html

[henry6]

blownout cylinder

 

What is this 'visionary' thing of which you speak?  I knew you'd ask.

Let me put it this way..I have had relatives who went through certain...erm..'visionary' regimes that thought that they could control fr all manner of things as well...  Can't follow what you're saying, but they're your relatives.

Just prove to me that your system will prove to be a well thought out plan. Didn't think anybody can prove anything to you, especially this.

That has not happened yet....You both won't let it and are cocksure it won't happen anyway.

[Anonymous]

I should mention that this thread is based on my interpretation of this NTSB synopsis in which last year’s Iowa collision on the BNSF was found to be due to a medical disorder in both members of the crew.   

 

http://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/2012/red_oak_ia/index.html

[blownout cylinder]

henry6

 

 

You are right.  But so am I .  I am right that you are not going to open your mind to understand this idea, understand the idea that something has to and will be done about fatigue, and that you don't want to change from where you are and what you do now.

What is this 'visionary' thing of which you speak?

Let me put it this way..I have had relatives who went through certain...erm..'visionary' regimes that thought that they could control fr all manner of things as well...

Just prove to me that your system will prove to be a well thought out plan.

That has not happened yet....

[Anonymous]

Murphy Siding

 I guess blownout cylinder, like a lot of us, just doesn't have that *visionary* thing.

Oh that’s okay.  We have to have somebody inside of the box in order for there to be a box that we visionaries can be outside of.   

[Murphy Siding]

     I guess blownout cylinder, like a lot of us, just doesn't have that *visionary* thing.

[henry6]

blownout cylinder

What is this?

Looking for converts to a new 'religion' of sorts?

You guys are not convincing me that your overarching system is going to work...simples.

For as long as we had towns and cities there were always certain jobs that required people to work nights...even in the medieval era there were nightwatchmen and such that still did the night time thing...

Even agricultural societies had them.

You are right.  But so am I .  I am right that you are not going to open your mind to understand this idea, understand the idea that something has to and will be done about fatigue, and that you don't want to change from where you are and what you do now.

[blownout cylinder]

What is this?

Looking for converts to a new 'religion' of sorts?

You guys are not convincing me that your overarching system is going to work...simples.

For as long as we had towns and cities there were always certain jobs that required people to work nights...even in the medieval era there were nightwatchmen and such that still did the night time thing...

Even agricultural societies had them.

[Anonymous]

henry6

What I am wondering is why you are fighting against this idea so hard?  In some ways you might have a lot to gain in salary, lifestyle, and safety.  So you made the career choice knowing what it was...what if it could be made better?  What are you afraid of?  Afraid of "overseers"?  Nothing is going to be taken away from you but a lot might be given to you. 

Great point.

[henry6]

blownout cylinder

henry6:

 

blownout cylinder:

 

So, I see. There will be a system in place that will make sure that this is done by the books?

Wouldn't this company need a lot of overseers involved to make sure this happens?

I know that one can 'black box' quite a lot of information that will log hours and such..how are these going to be utilized?

 

 

This could be construed to mean the quality of engineers, their ability and honesty, are not very good, and therefore  need to be micromanaged.  If so than I am wrong in believing that railroaders have integrity, honesty, and a desire to do a good honest days work without being spied upon.  Who do you know in the railroad industry tthat makes you think this way?

 

 

And just who was it that was talking about the drugs and all that? Hmmm?

As for this other stuff, I am not suggesting that they need to be micromanaged...but that the way this whole debate seems focused...after all, all this talk about dealing with the uncertainties of something that everyone who enters into this, or any OTHER field, for that matter, already KNOWS is not perfect already implies that very thing...

I KNEW what I was in for in this career choice, so were those in the logistics field...

 

What I am wondering is why you are fighting against this idea so hard?  In some ways you might have a lot to gain in salary, lifestyle, and safety.  So you made the career choice knowing what it was...what if it could be made better?  What are you afraid of?  Afraid of "overseers"?  Nothing is going to be taken away from you but a lot might be given to you. 

[Anonymous]

Murphy Siding

Bucyrus:

I do not see what is meant by several people here saying that this has to make economic sense in order for the railroads to accept it.  There is currently developing, a formulated approach to solving this problem.  And I don’t think it is going to make economic sense.  I would not be surprised if it doubles the cost of labor. 

 

I don’t think the railroads or the unions are going to be in a position to reject the solution just because it adds cost or does not make economic sense.  Does PTC make economic sense?

 

     Why is everything in your world viewed through your *The big-bad government is out to get all of us and make us slaves to their every whim, and we are utterly powerless to stop THEM" goggles?



Oof duh!  Change is going to come.  It always does.  Change will come to this situation as well.  The change will be evolutionary, as most things are, not revolutionary (or visionary, for that matter.)  Railroad safety has been improving since the day the first tracks were laid.

     Were the big-bad wolf able to force railroads to change everything about their operations, whether it involve sleep pattersn, operations in fog, black tankcars, or whatever else, it won't be done in a vaccuum.

    The government will be able to FORCE the railroads into operating 9:00 to 5:00, Monday thryu Friday.  (On days it's not foggy.) This will happen the same time that the government FORCES the airlines, truckers, police, fire departments, military, hospitals, power plants, etc..etc..etc... to do the same.

     I understand your paranoia and your agenda.  But why?  Why does it have to the focus of everything you type about any subject under the sun?

I think that is what you are projecting from your perception of what I am saying, and that the goggles you speak of are on your eyes, not mine.  I have no control over the fact that you think I am pushing an agenda, or paranoid.  But, I do think you are jumping to conclusions in making everything I say fit your model of what you think I am about. 

This sleep issue is what it is.   I can see it but I can't change it.   Open your eyes and look at it.   Let me know if you think it is something other than what I see.  I'll be glad to consider it.   

[blownout cylinder]

henry6

 

blownout cylinder:

 

So, I see. There will be a system in place that will make sure that this is done by the books?

Wouldn't this company need a lot of overseers involved to make sure this happens?

I know that one can 'black box' quite a lot of information that will log hours and such..how are these going to be utilized?

 

 

This could be construed to mean the quality of engineers, their ability and honesty, are not very good, and therefore  need to be micromanaged.  If so than I am wrong in believing that railroaders have integrity, honesty, and a desire to do a good honest days work without being spied upon.  Who do you know in the railroad industry tthat makes you think this way?

 

And just who was it that was talking about the drugs and all that? Hmmm?

As for this other stuff, I am not suggesting that they need to be micromanaged...but that the way this whole debate seems focused...after all, all this talk about dealing with the uncertainties of something that everyone who enters into this, or any OTHER field, for that matter, already KNOWS is not perfect already implies that very thing...

I KNEW what I was in for in this career choice, so were those in the logistics field...

[blownout cylinder]

uummmm...one source? 

And this is done...how?

And, are there going to be jobs for those who actually work better the way it is now? 

2 shifts? 3shifts or just 1 shift?....

Maybe it will need a large mindshift in how things are done all around....

[henry6]

blownout cylinder

So, I see. There will be a system in place that will make sure that this is done by the books?

Wouldn't this company need a lot of overseers involved to make sure this happens?

I know that one can 'black box' quite a lot of information that will log hours and such..how are these going to be utilized?

This could be construed to mean the quality of engineers, their ability and honesty, are not very good, and therefore  need to be micromanaged.  If so than I am wrong in believing that railroaders have integrity, honesty, and a desire to do a good honest days work without being spied upon.  Who do you know in the railroad industry tthat makes you think this way?

 

[blownout cylinder]

Look, I am actually thinking that the way it is done NOW is actually quite good..it has actually worked for a lot of people. It is really annoying to have to remind people that we are no longer seeing people working 16-30 hour shifts such as had happened up until a few decades ago...the ONLY time I personally had to work a double shift was when one of my fellow PSW's got stuck in a snowsquall here...

[henry6]

blownout cylinder

So, definitely into the conspiracy end here....and is this going to be through the government basically 'nationalizing' the transportation sector?    

 

What conspiracy?  And no, the railroads would be private or public sector.  It is just that you would draw some or all of you employees from once source.  I would think those of you who are on the road would want security of steady pay, predictable and practical hours, and the feeling of knowing the guy ahead of you, the guy behind you, and the guy coming at you are all in the same frame of mind and condition as you will mean there is less fear of accidents and delays.  Maybe it will cost more out of pocket for the railroads than now; but with realible availabily of rested and qualified crews and calling times, the fact that fatigue and other things will be lessend, this system will yield more effieincies and fewer accidents meaning costs will the same or less than now. 

[blownout cylinder]

So, I see. There will be a system in place that will make sure that this is done by the books?

Wouldn't this company need a lot of overseers involved to make sure this happens?

I know that one can 'black box' quite a lot of information that will log hours and such..how are these going to be utilized?

[Murphy Siding]

Bucyrus

I do not see what is meant by several people here saying that this has to make economic sense in order for the railroads to accept it.  There is currently developing, a formulated approach to solving this problem.  And I don’t think it is going to make economic sense.  I would not be surprised if it doubles the cost of labor. 

 

I don’t think the railroads or the unions are going to be in a position to reject the solution just because it adds cost or does not make economic sense.  Does PTC make economic sense?

     Why is everything in your world viewed through your *The big-bad government is out to get all of us and make us slaves to their every whim, and we are utterly powerless to stop THEM" goggles?



Oof duh!  Change is going to come.  It always does.  Change will come to this situation as well.  The change will be evolutionary, as most things are, not revolutionary (or visionary, for that matter.)  Railroad safety has been improving since the day the first tracks were laid.

     Were the big-bad wolf able to force railroads to change everything about their operations, whether it involve sleep pattersn, operations in fog, black tankcars, or whatever else, it won't be done in a vaccuum.

    The government will be able to FORCE the railroads into operating 9:00 to 5:00, Monday thryu Friday.  (On days it's not foggy.) This will happen the same time that the government FORCES the airlines, truckers, police, fire departments, military, hospitals, power plants, etc..etc..etc... to do the same.

     I understand your paranoia and your agenda.  But why?  Why does it have to the focus of everything you type about any subject under the sun?

[henry6]

Calling something half baked and making half as**d wisecracks does not solve the problem nor address the questions put forward nor make the posters look as intellegent as they says they are.  It just might happen that one becomes a licesned engineer and will be pooled so that he will have to go to work under prescribed conditions of vacation, rest, sleep time immediately before going to work, all imposed with a flat salary.  If it cures the problem of fatigue, property damage, and inuries and death, lost time, and lost wages for everyone who won't be working when there is a wreck. Forget everything you know about present work rules, time off, pay scales, etc.  You'll be given job assignements where they are or on which railroad (remember I've allowed for one to sign on with his preferences being acknowledged). I would suggest that pay..salaried pay...be apportioned to be equal to working 40 hours a week 52 weeks a year in an amount averaging out to straight time and accustomed or normally accrued overtime....I guy working five days a week regular could make more than working three overtime days and lose a turn!)  A lot of things can be done to make it work.  But just saying out of hand it won't work doesn't make sense.,

[blownout cylinder]

So, definitely into the conspiracy end here....and is this going to be through the government basically 'nationalizing' the transportation sector?    

[Anonymous]

blownout cylinder

So, one is talking about an overarching system that will not make any economic sense, but will have to be done...at whose expense then? Would this system also affect OTR as well? 

It would be at the expense of the transportation customer.  And yes, I think it will be coming to other night shift industries, particularly trucking.  However, there are other night shift industries where suddenly falling asleep would not be as life threatening, so they would be at a lower priority for action. 

[blownout cylinder]

So, one is talking about an overarching system that will not make any economic sense, but will have to be done...at whose expense then? Would this system also affect OTR as well? 

A lot of FUD going on here...

BTW...there are a lot of areas wherein the 24/7 world exists...would it be cut to, say, 15/5 then?

[Anonymous]

I do not see what is meant by several people here saying that this has to make economic sense in order for the railroads to accept it.  There is currently developing, a formulated approach to solving this problem.  And I don’t think it is going to make economic sense.  I would not be surprised if it doubles the cost of labor. 

 

I don’t think the railroads or the unions are going to be in a position to reject the solution just because it adds cost or does not make economic sense.  Does PTC make economic sense?

[BaltACD]

henry6

Ed...this was an idea thrown out by me as a thought toward a solution to a problem.  But the railroaders don't want to have anything to do with it so we will never know the costs, the rules, the adjustments, who would organize and run such an operation.  No body wants to constructively assess this idea but they have all said that it can never work if only because of the way they have always railroaded and nothing can be changed.  This is not the place to seriously discuss possiblities, only affirm the past.

 

Something that is only half baked and not thought through will rarely if ever make a finished product, let alone a product superior in functionality and economic return to those to which it is to be marketed.

Qualifications of railroad operating personnel require much more than minimum wage service personnel.  Getting qualified on a territory is not just taking a round trip ride over the territory to familiarize one with the looks of the territory.  Many runs require operation over segments of other carriers property and thus employees operating on such territory must get certified on that carriers rules and procedures for that segment of territory.  While the carriers follow standardized formats in the Rule Books, the rules are not necessarily identical as they are tailored to the specific needs of the carrier who publish them.

One thing you have not mentioned about your 'crew service' is how much liability you feature your service will be responsible for - I am certain, the carriers will hold you liable for anything and everything your crews get involved with - get involved in a derailment with HAZMAT release and territory evacuation and the carriers will be looking at your service to foot the millions and millions in liability stemming from the incident that was 'caused' by your crews.

Carriers will only sign up for something that makes economic sense for them.  So far as you have presented you ideas, I don't see anything that makes economic sense for the carriers; in fact, as presented I don't see anything that makes economic sense for you as the owner of the service.

[henry6]

Ed...this was an idea thrown out by me as a thought toward a solution to a problem.  But the railroaders don't want to have anything to do with it so we will never know the costs, the rules, the adjustments, who would organize and run such an operation.  No body wants to constructively assess this idea but they have all said that it can never work if only because of the way they have always railroaded and nothing can be changed.  This is not the place to seriously discuss possiblities, only affirm the past.

 

[MP173]

I am late to the party on this one, but just spent an hour reading and catching up. 

A couple of comments from a NON railroader. 

1.  Interesting concept.

2.  Henry, can you provide a pro-forma for this including the costs involved/savings to railroads, etc.  Please explain how the increase in labor (if wages/benefits remain the same) will provide economic benefits to the railroads.  Someone earlier mentioned a 10% reduction in labor costs to make this a break even....while I do not know railroading, I do have an idea of costs of running a business and the 10% discount rate for running this is short, it should be closer to 25% - 35%.  So, either the labor rates will come down by that amount (that will be difficult sell to the brotherhood members) or the labor costs to railroads will increase by that amount (difficult to sell to the suits).  So...show me the money. 

3.  Included in that labor discount/increase will be considerable labor training costs.  How would you propose administering that aspect? 

4.  I know railroads do not pay into Social Security program, having their own such benefit.  How would that be impacted?

5.  What are the startup costs for such a service and how would you roll this out?  Would you selectively apply this concept to certain high density regions with multiple routes?

Looking forward to your reply.

Ed

[Anonymous]

One thing seems certain, and that is that addressing the railroad sleep disorder problem is going to be difficult.  However, I do not believe that the solution needs to be cost effective.  I expect it to add cost.  I don’t see how it could be otherwise.  So, I do not see this as something that industry has to approve on a cost effective basis, as is the case with changing from DC to AC traction, for example.   Instead, the shift work sleep disorder solution will come from regulation.  It will be like PTC, in that it will be mandated in the name of safety, and the industry will be forced to pay for it. 

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

blownout cylinder

  [snipped - PDN]  As for the rest issue...it needs a piecemeal approach. Like it or not...there are no such things as 'magic bullets' or single system methods to handle complexities such as these.... 

  "+1"    Wisdom !   

[blownout cylinder]

It is interesting to note that the OP was more about workers at risk for sleep disorders. That is a whole 'nother kettle of fish to deal with. 

There are whole ranges of sleep disorders going all the way to those such as Narcolepsy that are theoretically rendering people incapable of working at these types of jobs. The ones mentioned wherein one needs CPAP..such as Sleep Apnea are a little more doable....

All these things do is to make the situation a little less of an issue ...for those who suffer from that issue. 

As for the rest issue...it needs a piecemeal approach. Like it or not...there are no such things as 'magic bullets' or single system methods to handle complexities such as these....

[Georgia Railroader]

blownout cylinder

It wasn't directed at you...just this whole thing....I almost posted a Waambulance a few post back ....some people have a system and they want so much to get it done, unfortunately

LOL you would have beat me to it. Yea it's getting out of hand, but hey man that's life. We gotta agree to disagree I guess. Life goes on.

And on that note I'm out, it's been a long day of kicking cars and stomping rocks.

[Georgia Railroader]

[blownout cylinder]

It wasn't directed at you...just this whole thing....I almost posted a Waambulance a few post back ....some people have a system and they want so much to get it done, unfortunately

[Georgia Railroader]

blownout cylinder

Must have been the Super Moon what done it.....

Oh that's brilliant.........keep trying, you almost got it.

[blownout cylinder]

Must have been the Super Moon what done it.....

[Georgia Railroader]

edblysard

Funny thing Henry,

I didn't personally attack you, not once.

I didn't really attack your idea either, simply offered a critique which included a specific question in regards to the benefit, in the form of profit to both the railroad and the union members/employees.

You still have failed to answer

Because some of us here didn't exclaime "Oh, how brilliant of you" you have taken offense.

You then insulted me, my profession and the professional railroaders here with you crudeness, petulance and arrogance.

The sad truth is that because most didn't agree with you 100%, nor did anyone reward you for you imagined expertise; you resulted to very childish behavior.

You proposed a concept, offered it for examination, and I assumed for discussion and debate, and got a lot of responses, wow...free R&D from people in the business you are trying your concept out on, you realize people actually pay for that?

Several of us found what we think are flaws in your concept and pointed those out.

Granted, some of us could have been a little more delicate in response, but delicate is for parlor games...this is railroading, nothing delicate about it.

Several of us agreed with your concept, and then just offered a few ideas of their own to help you tweak it, some disagreed with it, and said so, and at least one of us somewhat encouraged you to pursue it but suggested you somehow make it monetarily attractive to the railroad before it would be accepted.

What you showed me was that you are intolerant of criticism, hide bound in your belief that you are 100% correct in your concept and it is perfect as is, either un-able or un-willing to accept the idea you may not have the perfect solution, and completely un willing to listen to any idea or belief that runs contrary to your own.

All things you accuse the railroaders here of being and doing.

Instead of debating the pros and cons others offered, and defending point by point your concept in an adult manner, you quickly retreated into self-pity, anger and insults to "defend" your idea.

 While most of us have been quite patience with your antics, insults and whining, and most of us have tolerated being called drug addicts, drunks, lazy and closed minded, you have finally managed to explain, to me at least, exactly what kind of person you are, your outlook on life and your attitude towards railroads.

Sorry you didn't make the cut when you applied.

I am as thick skinned as the next guy, like Zug, I have been chewed out by professionals...

I come here for fun, to hear others stories, answer questions and ask them, not to be insulted, nor read your insults towards others.

That said, you can take your thumb sucking pity party and stuff it.

No worries though, as most of us are going to go have adult conversations, while you could, maybe should, go back to the mirror in your room and amuse yourself as you normally would before you embarrass yourself in public any more than you already have.

Any chance that your or your idea would be seriously considered evaporated the moment you started to whine and pitch a fit.

Ya know Ed, dont even waste your breath, this armchair railroader knows more about our jobs than we do so just let him have his say, after all he knows guys who work for the railroad WOW!! We're all trying to hide something LMAO, yea OK. I dont drink, and I've been drug free my entire life, so test away if it makes you happy, I have nothing to hide. With every post he shows his ignorant colors and he keeps stuffing his foot in his mouth like so many other experts. It's funny, but sad as well.

He came on here with a vision that he was going to change the railroad world, some were interested, some were not. So what, that's life get over it not all ideas are met with warm fuzzy hugs.

So keep spewing your BS and keep crying like some child who doesn't get his way, and I'm gonna keep laughing, hell I might even show this to my co workers, they'll get a kick out of it.

You come on here and attack us with your ignorant remarks about something you couldn't buy a clue about, I never personally attacked you, I only expressed that I didn't buy into your idea. Get over yourself. But if that's how you want to be then fine, the gloves are off, so take your little box and your attitude and stick it sunshine.

[blownout cylinder]

That was a particularly good series of studies that were done...when that came out I was at university going through the PSW/Nursing school and we went through that study ourselves...my sleep schedule then was definite night owl!!!

[zugmann]

blownout cylinder

 

There were some who actually argued that we go back to a time when we maintained a specific set pattern more attuned to a 'rural'/agricultural society...sleep at night/work during the day. That idea was pretty much beaten down simply because we grew accustomed to something close to a more mixed industrial/post industrial lifestyle...

 

I read a study or two a little while back about people with "shifted circadian rhythms".  Someone's rhythm can be off by 6-8 hours from the "norm".  Explains why some people are night owls, and some are morning people.

 

 

[zardoz]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[blownout cylinder]

 

I'm sorry but this is getting really annoying. 

You dismiss, out of hand, legitimate concerns that could be addressed and then wonder why you get the response you get?

Really?

There are loads of sectors that work 24/7 that have some of these very issues. Not everyone is suited for that type of work...they will figure that out eventually themselves....

[henry6]

edblysard

Funny thing Henry,

I didn't personally attack you, not once.

I didn't really attack your idea either, simply offered a critique which included a specific question in regards to the benefit, in the form of profit to both the railroad and the union members/employees.

You still have failed to answer

Because some of us here didn't exclaime "Oh, how brilliant of you" you have taken offense.

You then insulted me, my profession and the professional railroaders here with you crudeness, petulance and arrogance.

The sad truth is that because most didn't agree with you 100%, nor did anyone reward you for you imagined expertise; you resulted to very childish behavior.

You proposed a concept, offered it for examination, and I assumed for discussion and debate, and got a lot of responses, wow...free R&D from people in the business you are trying your concept out on, you realize people actually pay for that?

Several of us found what we think are flaws in your concept and pointed those out.

Granted, some of us could have been a little more delicate in response, but delicate is for parlor games...this is railroading, nothing delicate about it.

Several of us agreed with your concept, and then just offered a few ideas of their own to help you tweak it, some disagreed with it, and said so, and at least one of us somewhat encouraged you to pursue it but suggested you somehow make it monetarily attractive to the railroad before it would be accepted.

What you showed me was that you are intolerant of criticism, hide bound in your belief that you are 100% correct in your concept and it is perfect as is, either un-able or un-willing to accept the idea you may not have the perfect solution, and completely un willing to listen to any idea or belief that runs contrary to your own.

All things you accuse the railroaders here of being and doing.

Instead of debating the pros and cons others offered, and defending point by point your concept in an adult manner, you quickly retreated into self-pity, anger and insults to "defend" your idea.

 While most of us have been quite patience with your antics, insults and whining, and most of us have tolerated being called drug addicts, drunks, lazy and closed minded, you have finally managed to explain, to me at least, exactly what kind of person you are, your outlook on life and your attitude towards railroads.

Sorry you didn't make the cut when you applied.

I am as thick skinned as the next guy, like Zug, I have been chewed out by professionals...

I come here for fun, to hear others stories, answer questions and ask them, not to be insulted, nor read your insults towards others.

That said, you can take your thumb sucking pity party and stuff it.

No worries though, as most of us are going to go have adult conversations, while you could, maybe should, go back to the mirror in your room and amuse yourself as you normally would before you embarrass yourself in public any more than you already have.

Any chance that your or your idea would be seriously considered evaporated the moment you started to whine and pitch a fit.

I did answer you and the Georgia Peach there.  Niether of you would accpet my answers or changes.  The two of you especially dismissed my idea out of hand as not being workable.  I don't really care because it isn't real anyway.  I'm not going to do it.  And I can see you and Georgie wouldn't even think it worth thinking about.

 

[henry6]

Murphy Siding

Bucyrus:

I tend to side with henry.  If you are a visionary with new ideas, you can hardly listen to your critics.  They will always be there.

 

 

 

 

   I disgree with that blanket statement.  If you read the replies that got henry worked up, they are saying specifically what the weak spots are in his idea.  Instead of addressing those weak spots, he's just dismissing the posters as being bad employees.

      Visionary ?  ?  ?  A *visionary* would see that the mere fact that he said something doesn't instantly make the statement true. 

But I didn't get upset with their criticism but tried to answer their concerns, the weak spots of mine and work out the problems they presented.  It is they, infact, who got bent out of shape when I tried to incoporate their wisdom.  I haven't dismissed them as bad employees but was trying to show how their complacent attitude will not solve the problems, will not change a thing. I have been around railroads and railroaders for over 50 years and I know the differences from those I knew 50 years ago and those who I've encountred today.  I know what I've observed, what I've been told, what stories I've heard.  I indicated that most of those who I have known from track gang through presidents have been good railroaders with and without their problems; I do not paint a majority of them as being druggies, drunks, or otherwise problematical.  But there are some who hide their problems or hide from them.  Fatigue is a problem no one can hide from.  Adjusting failed rules over and over and over has not eliminated the problem. 

I don't consider myself a visionary by any means.  But I see there is a problem that is not being fixed by conventional means, by historical bandaids, by talking and talking, by saying nothing can be done.  So I thought of something, presented it looking for ways to improve it, adjust it, maybe work toward making it work.  I was taken aback by the total negativism by those calling themselves professional railroaders and surprised how quickly they snapped at my tail.  I was hoping for a more enlightened and intelligent conversation...but I guess these forums are not where such will be.

[edblysard]

Funny thing Henry,

I didn't personally attack you, not once.

I didn't really attack your idea either, simply offered a critique which included a specific question in regards to the benefit, in the form of profit to both the railroad and the union members/employees.

You still have failed to answer

Because some of us here didn't exclaime "Oh, how brilliant of you" you have taken offense.

You then insulted me, my profession and the professional railroaders here with you crudeness, petulance and arrogance.

The sad truth is that because most didn't agree with you 100%, nor did anyone reward you for you imagined expertise; you resulted to very childish behavior.

You proposed a concept, offered it for examination, and I assumed for discussion and debate, and got a lot of responses, wow...free R&D from people in the business you are trying your concept out on, you realize people actually pay for that?

Several of us found what we think are flaws in your concept and pointed those out.

Granted, some of us could have been a little more delicate in response, but delicate is for parlor games...this is railroading, nothing delicate about it.

Several of us agreed with your concept, and then just offered a few ideas of their own to help you tweak it, some disagreed with it, and said so, and at least one of us somewhat encouraged you to pursue it but suggested you somehow make it monetarily attractive to the railroad before it would be accepted.

What you showed me was that you are intolerant of criticism, hide bound in your belief that you are 100% correct in your concept and it is perfect as is, either un-able or un-willing to accept the idea you may not have the perfect solution, and completely un willing to listen to any idea or belief that runs contrary to your own.

All things you accuse the railroaders here of being and doing.

Instead of debating the pros and cons others offered, and defending point by point your concept in an adult manner, you quickly retreated into self-pity, anger and insults to "defend" your idea.

 While most of us have been quite patience with your antics, insults and whining, and most of us have tolerated being called drug addicts, drunks, lazy and closed minded, you have finally managed to explain, to me at least, exactly what kind of person you are, your outlook on life and your attitude towards railroads.

Sorry you didn't make the cut when you applied.

I am as thick skinned as the next guy, like Zug, I have been chewed out by professionals...

I come here for fun, to hear others stories, answer questions and ask them, not to be insulted, nor read your insults towards others.

That said, you can take your thumb sucking pity party and stuff it.

No worries though, as most of us are going to go have adult conversations, while you could, maybe should, go back to the mirror in your room and amuse yourself as you normally would before you embarrass yourself in public any more than you already have.

Any chance that your or your idea would be seriously considered evaporated the moment you started to whine and pitch a fit.

[blownout cylinder]

I do not think that any particular 'magic bullet' system would really work. Our bodies are complex systems that have adapted to weird hours and all manner of other things not conducive to a 'normal'...there is that dang word again...sleep pattern. 

There were some who actually argued that we go back to a time when we maintained a specific set pattern more attuned to a 'rural'/agricultural society...sleep at night/work during the day. That idea was pretty much beaten down simply because we grew accustomed to something close to a more mixed industrial/post industrial lifestyle...

In my field, that includes things like children getting sick...at night...emergency trips to the hospital and such. Imagine what would happen if someone gets into an accident and no doctors/nurses/EMT were around...was not a long time ago that that was the norm.

I had a cardiac arrest at night...I would not be here then....

[blownout cylinder]

My ducks are drug free..as for my sheep....leave my sheep out of this!!!

[zardoz]

zugmann

My ducks are drug free. 

AFLAC!

[zardoz]

zugmann

The problem is when you use the "C" word: contractors.  For the most part, contractors are used for crew haulers.  These agencies are all about the bottom line.  And it shows.  There are some good van drivers out there - don't get me wrong, but then there's some that are, well, ehh.... less than ideal?   But when you are paying very low wages and expect the guys to work a schedule worse than a railroader's, you get what you get. 

During a period of "between jobs" I was getting desperate and I applied to be a driver for one of those contractors. If I had previously thought railroad hours were tough, this crew-hauler job was far far worse.

Like an extra board employee, I waited by the phone for the call to duty. Once I went on duty, my "hours of service" time began; from that on-duty time I then had 15 hours during which I was subject to another call once I completed the called-for assignment. The rub was that even after 14 hrs 59 min on duty, I could be called for yet another trip, which could take whatever amount of time was necessary, as long as the call came within my tour of duty.  

So if I got a 0700 call to drive a crew somewhere, and then delivered them to their destination, I might have to go home to await another call, or I could be used immediately for another run. When I got done with the next run, I could be used yet again for a third run, on and on until my time expired. In this particular scenario, I could get called for yet another run up to 2159 that evening; and if called at 2159, I might have to drive a crew however long it took. My total time on duty and supposedly safe to drive could be up to or even exceed 24 hours--talk about safety first!!

I'm certainly not defending some of those contract drivers, as some of them are real losers and shouldn't be driving a golf ball, much less a van full of people. However, there is a chance your driver might be at the end of one of those horrendous shifts.

I lasted all of one week at that job before I quit.

[zugmann]

zardoz

 

henry6:

 

But if railroaders like these want to keep ducking drug tests, sneaking six pack aboard, dozing at any speed

 

 

 

 

My ducks are drug free. 

 

I won't answer about my sheep disorders, though...

[zardoz]

henry6

But if railroaders like these want to keep ducking drug tests, sneaking six pack aboard, dozing at any speed

Ah, the good old days.....

[zugmann]

Bucyrus

I tend to side with henry.  If you are a visionary with new ideas, you can hardly listen to your critics.  They will always be there.

 

 

 

I always thought the point was to prove your critics wrong?

 

And then there's this:  just because an idea is different, does not mean it is better.

[Murphy Siding]

Bucyrus

I tend to side with henry.  If you are a visionary with new ideas, you can hardly listen to your critics.  They will always be there.

 

 

 

   I disgree with that blanket statement.  If you read the replies that got henry worked up, they are saying specifically what the weak spots are in his idea.  Instead of addressing those weak spots, he's just dismissing the posters as being bad employees.

      Visionary ?  ?  ?  A *visionary* would see that the mere fact that he said something doesn't instantly make the statement true. 

[Murphy Siding]

henry6

Railroaders here seem to be esconced in thier own little world of how it always has been and that's the way they want it.  They are suspect of anyone with an idea, especially one who is not one of them.  If it were one of them, they'd just as soon send him down a track in the dark then slam a car down on him.  Oh, I know enough railroaders from the ground up to the big office to know 90% aren't the naysayers who have responded here.  But if railroaders like these want to keep ducking drug tests, sneaking six pack aboard, dozing at any speed, and denying something has to be done to change that, then they will pay in the long run.  They gave me negative answers...I took them and figured out the problem and came up with an answer to meet that challange.   Too bad they, like you, thought it was my bad attitude.  I was trying to build something through diologue not condemnation.  So,  You better all get going because the caller will be ringing your bell soon.  Have a safe trip.

 

     Henry-  I now believe that you are insulting railroad employees in general, and I don't believe that's right.

[Anonymous]

I tend to side with henry.  If you are a visionary with new ideas, you can hardly listen to your critics.  They will always be there.

 

 

 

[zugmann]

Nope-  have a regular show up time!  I don't even have my phone on me right now!

 

 

[henry6]

Railroaders here seem to be esconced in thier own little world of how it always has been and that's the way they want it.  They are suspect of anyone with an idea, especially one who is not one of them.  If it were one of them, they'd just as soon send him down a track in the dark then slam a car down on him.  Oh, I know enough railroaders from the ground up to the big office to know 90% aren't the naysayers who have responded here.  But if railroaders like these want to keep ducking drug tests, sneaking six pack aboard, dozing at any speed, and denying something has to be done to change that, then they will pay in the long run.  They gave me negative answers...I took them and figured out the problem and came up with an answer to meet that challange.   Too bad they, like you, thought it was my bad attitude.  I was trying to build something through diologue not condemnation.  So,  You better all get going because the caller will be ringing your bell soon.  Have a safe trip.

 

[zugmann]

Well, you aren't going to offend me.  I  have broad shoulders - I can take it.

 

The problem is when you use the "C" word: contractors.  For the most part, contractors are used for crew haulers.  These agencies are all about the bottom line.  And it shows.  There are some good van drivers out there - don't get me wrong, but then there's some that are, well, ehh.... less than ideal?   But when you are paying very low wages and expect the guys to work a schedule worse than a railroader's, you get what you get. 

That is a big hurdle to clear.  Then there's the whole seniority thing.  Like I said - what's more important? Regular work times, or regular work assignments?   There's a lot of people that work in yards or locals solely so they can be home every night and not have to put up with hotels.  And there's people that work road jobs so they do not have to put up with switching or being outside their entire shift.

Regular start times/rest times are but one factor to railroad life.

 

[Murphy Siding]

      I don't know Henry.....There's a chance it might be your attitude..............

       When someone tells you why it won't work,  instead of asking the particulars about why, you just come off as dismissive.   I don't think the answers you're getting are made just to annoy you.  I think the answers you're getting are from people who work in the industry and have a pretty good view of the situation.

     I'm not a railroader, but even I can see some big holes in your idea.  I considered posting them,  but felt the answer I would receive would be along the lines of  "You're thinking too small.  You're not thinking outside the box.  You just can't see the big picture.  Etc....."  That usually comes off as meaning  "You're just plain  too dumb to understand what I'm saying."  For some reason, folks don't appreciate being talked to like that.

[henry6]

blownout cylinder

Creating strawmen arguments is not going to cut it either...I sure as He double L hockey sticks am not suggesting that kind of thing.

The point is...I KNEW what kind of a career choice I was making when I went into doing the PSW thing then went from there upwards....I'm pretty sure rails did the same thing...eh?

 

Good for you!

 

[blownout cylinder]

Creating strawmen arguments is not going to cut it either...I sure as He double L hockey sticks am not suggesting that kind of thing.

The point is...I KNEW what kind of a career choice I was making when I went into doing the PSW thing then went from there upwards....I'm pretty sure rails did the same thing...eh?

[henry6]

You are right, blownout, nothing proposed will work.

You are right, Jeff, I don't work for a railroad so have no business thinking anything or saying anything.  I apologize for stepping on your omnipotent toes. 

Since the two of you understand the problem so well, from your collective standpoints, the safest path is to close down all railroads, airlines and trucking companies and forget moving anything again.  What a world seen through those colored glasses.!

[blownout cylinder]

It does not matter what anyone comes up with...it will not work....

By the sweat of your brows shall you work..all we are going to see are further issues...like it or not.

[jeffhergert]

henry6

 

Changing a crew's assignment can be tricky...sometimes a crew will get a change in assignement but have to get some kind of extra pay under present rules, costly for the railroad.  With PoolCrew that would hopefully be avoided.  Moving a crew a distance for reassignment may or may not be a problem either, depending on proximity to other assignments.  

Henry, what railroad do you work for again?  And under what contract?

When we get our assignment changed we don't get anything extra.  In fact, most arbitrary and penalty payments are long gone.  Those hired after 1985 only got the few penalty payments left, never the arbitraries like making air hoses or hanging on to car(s) while making a pickup etc.  Even when a penalty payment is claimed, most take years to get paid. 

Having set start times sounds like a good idea.  Unfortunately, the business does not always move in a uniform way.  Many of our manifest trains get called out of their originating station at about the same time everyday.  From that point on, the departure times and over the road times can vary greatly.  It just depends on how things are going.  The first crew would know when they are going to go to work, but crews down the line aren't going to be as lucky. 

Today, I was called to put together light power and go out and pull a grain train from an elevator.  On duty at 0430, we were ready to depart about 630.  We were blocked by a train on the yard lead who had to wait for a train on the main line to pass.  When we went on duty, the elevator hadn't yet released the train.  It was released by the time we were ready to leave.  The elevator only has so long to load it before the railroad starts charging for the cars sitting there.  Shouldn't the elevator expect the railroad to move their train in an expeditious manner since they must load it within the alloted time?  (Actually it's got to be frustrating at times since I've seen grain trains sit for a day or two before getting pulled.  But that was back when traffic was booming, not like it is now.)  Or should the railroad tell the elevator, "I'm sorry, but because of crew scheduling the next available pick up time is between 7AM and 9AM the third Tuesday of next month.  Thank you for your patronage."  

The railroads and unions have proposed schemes over the years.  One was/is call windows where you only go to work during a set period of time.  Under some plans when your "window" closes you go to the bottom of the board and await the next day's window.  Others where you automatically deadhead out to the away terminal if you didn't get a train.  There have been plans for rest days.  We had them once and seemed to work well.  You worked about every 10 hours, but at the end had 3 days off.  There have been other plans proposed or tried.  The biggest hang up is money.  Employees don't want to lose it thru reduced wages, the carriers don't want to lose it thru increased gaurantee payments.  (Since many of these plans will require more people being available during all windows, the carriers want to reduce gaurantees on those who have them.  That's why we lost our rest days.  They paid too much in gaurantee at some smaller terminals.  One terminal, if you only worked yard jobs during your work periods, you wouldn't go over the gaurantee and the company would have to make up the difference.)  The current Federal Requirement for rest after working so many days (some changes in the way it's handled are coming, but I'm not sure when) is looked at by management and labor in somewhat the same way.  Both sides think the other has learned to game the system to their advantage.  That's probably going to be the biggest obstacle for any plan, each side is going to think the other is getting the better deal.

Again, all I see from your proposal is replacing direct employees with contract employees.  You may think your people working for PoolCrew will never have issues that regular human beings have.  Even regular night shift workers at times have trouble getting rest during the day.  (I know, I've been one at times.)  Unless you have access to automatons, you will still have some of the same problems.

I can't speak for the other railroaders on here, but in my opinion you have suceeded in alienating, if not offending the working rails on here.  In that respect, I don't think you are alone.  More and more I understand why others have left. 

Jeff        

[henry6]

I see some are coming around to realize that something other than the same old has to be done.  Regulation is not going to solve it...permanent time assignments is not going to solve it...something radical has to be done.

Yes, again, yes.  Airline pilots, truck and bus drivers, taxi drivers, warehouse crews, there are probably thousands of 24/7 jobs in which sleep schedules, lack of sleep, sleep depravation, uneven sleep, and eventually fatigue all play a roll in both work performance and private lives.  I remember the hard time I had having to workone day starting at 5AM, then one day at 6AM but also do four hours after five hours off, then two days at 3PM and a fifth day variable but usually around noon.  After a year I didn't know what day or time it was nor did I really care. 

Bravado sounds great...and actually works when you are younger...overtime a breeze, night owl is cool, sixth and sevnth days ok.  As long as you can cope with your social live, it's easy. But at a certrain age...usually sometime in the mid 30's...you begin to change; can't do it all the time, soon, just look for the simple 8 hours and go home.  So, age produces metabolic and behavorial changes which are not taken into account by a seniority list and crew caller nor in the "we've always done it" mantra.

Changing a crew's assignment can be tricky...sometimes a crew will get a change in assignement but have to get some kind of extra pay under present rules, costly for the railroad.  With PoolCrew that would hopefully be avoided.  Moving a crew a distance for reassignment may or may not be a problem either, depending on proximity to other assignments.  

My first thought would be that set time assignments like yard jobs, road switch jobs, even passenger trains.  But then, again, why not?  It may allow for more flexibiity of assignements for crewing.  Especially in commuter services where there are split shifts with four and five hour layovers; maybe fewer crews will be needed.  Perhaps PoolCrew will have to provide transportation to and from crew assignment locations so that if a crew finishes an assigned train in a short time, PoolCrew will move the crew to another location for another short time assignement.

As I've indicated...this is a project aimed at dealing with efficient use of manpower but more importantly, utilizing manpower to reduce long term stress leading to fatigue.  It is totally off the wall.  It is totally different than what can be achieved within the confines of today's exclusive employment,  of union contracts, of company divisions, and 200 year old practices and thinking.  And everyone has to be aboard: labor, unions, railroads.  New rules, new pay scales, new attitudes, have to be employed.  Will it work everywhere?  Probably not. Will it work for every current employee?  Probably not.  Will it work for every employer?  Probably not.  Will it work at all?  Only if you say it won't and walk away.  Yeah, there are a lot of variables, lots of scenerios, probablities, possibilities, impossiblities; lots of planning and designing and forethought needed.  There could be....I'll actually go so far as to say, shold be....several different locations where it should be tried for a year or so, with monitoring of physical results as well as fiscal results.  Employees who work well, with no lack of sleep or rest, without fatigue problems, should be able to  work more efficiently and safely, giving employees a better performance of quality work, i.e. more money to the bottom line.  Railroads, unions, other employees, and all sorts of government types can keep talking and argueing; that won't solve anything.  Somebody, somewhere along this track, is going to have to say, "enough talking, lets try this or that or whatever else has been proposed". 

[henry6]

I see some are coming around to realize that something other than the same old has to be done.  Regulation is not going to solve it...permanent time assignments is not going to solve it...something radical has to be done.

Yes, again, yes.  Airline pilots, truck and bus drivers, taxi drivers, warehouse crews, there are probably thousands of 24/7 jobs in which sleep schedules, lack of sleep, sleep depravation, uneven sleep, and eventually fatigue all play a roll in both work performance and private lives.  I remember the hard time I had having to workone day starting at 5AM, then one day at 6AM but also do four hours after five hours off, then two days at 3PM and a fifth day variable but usually around noon.  After a year I didn't know what day or time it was nor did I really care. 

Bravado sounds great...and actually works when you are younger...overtime a breeze, night owl is cool, sixth and sevnth days ok.  As long as you can cope with your social live, it's easy. But at a certrain age...usually sometime in the mid 30's...you begin to change; can't do it all the time, soon, just look for the simple 8 hours and go home.  So, age produces metabolic and behavorial changes which are not taken into account by a seniority list and crew caller nor in the "we've always done it" mantra.

Changing a crew's assignment can be tricky...sometimes a crew will get a change in assignement but have to get some kind of extra pay under present rules, costly for the railroad.  With PoolCrew that would hopefully be avoided.  Moving a crew a distance for reassignment may or may not be a problem either, depending on proximity to other assignments.  

My first thought would be that set time assignments like yard jobs, road switch jobs, even passenger trains.  But then, again, why not?  It may allow for more flexibiity of assignements for crewing.  Especially in commuter services where there are split shifts with four and five hour layovers; maybe fewer crews will be needed.  Perhaps PoolCrew will have to provide transportation to and from crew assignment locations so that if a crew finishes an assigned train in a short time, PoolCrew will move the crew to another location for another short time assignement.

As I've indicated...this is a project aimed at dealing with efficient use of manpower but more importantly, utilizing manpower to reduce long term stress leading to fatigue.  It is totally off the wall.  It is totally different than what can be achieved within the confines of today's exclusive employment,  of union contracts, of company divisions, and 200 year old practices and thinking.  And everyone has to be aboard: labor, unions, railroads.  New rules, new pay scales, new attitudes, have to be employed.  Will it work everywhere?  Probably not. Will it work for every current employee?  Probably not.  Will it work for every employer?  Probably not.  Will it work at all?  Only if you say it won't and walk away.  Yeah, there are a lot of variables, lots of scenerios, probablities, possibilities, impossiblities; lots of planning and designing and forethought needed.  There could be....I'll actually go so far as to say, shold be....several different locations where it should be tried for a year or so, with monitoring of physical results as well as fiscal results.  Employees who work well, with no lack of sleep or rest, without fatigue problems, should be able to  work more efficiently and safely, giving employees a better performance of quality work, i.e. more money to the bottom line.  Railroads, unions, other employees, and all sorts of government types can keep talking and argueing; that won't solve anything.  Somebody, somewhere along this track, is going to have to say, "enough talking, lets try this or that or whatever else has been proposed". 

[jeffhergert]

henry6

But if I have a company which employees and assignes crews, a crew called for 8AM witha train that won't show up until 11AM can be moved to another assignment because I have maybe 40 or 50 assignements that morning.  My crews are qualified for whatever because my system, my contracts, is designed to deal with what ever should come up.  Maybe I know that I have to make out 100 assignments every 24 hours for any number of railroads and situtaitons from my location, not based on railroad locations and bases.  PoolCrew has carte blanc in assigning and managing the crews and not antiquated rules, divisions, whatever is now in effect.  It is a whole new world with only the cab of the locomotive the same as it is now.

Railroads do change trains on crews.  If a train falls down badly, and another crew has been called for another train after that one, they will change assignments.  Even though when called to report for a time a train symbol is given, it isn't set in stone.  

All you are doing is proposing to replace railroad employed crews with contract crews.  You are going to have the same issues the railroads do.  You will be hiring the from the same employment pool (that of imperfect human beings) that the railroads hire from.  Do you really think that everyone you hire will be perfect?  Ready to go to work everytime you call?  Sure, you talk about taking into account who wants to work road or yard jobs; days, nights, or weekends, etc.  To do that you will have so many extra people you're going to end up paying around minimum wage to keep your company going.  And people going to work at 2am, even those that want to, will still have the same issues of alertness, tiredness, what ever you want to call it that every other nightshift worker has at times.    

How are you going to assign crews when crew start locations are 50 or miles apart?  Sure in some areas different railroads may have crew start locations.  In other places, they are farther apart.  i'm not sure that you can just tell engr S. Cab to report to Boone today on the UP,  Report to Creston on the BNSF tomorrow.  They will probably have to go on duty at a central point like Des Moines (If you are going to cover many locations and railroads from one point) and they will deadhead to the work.  (When crews are called out of one terminal to protect an assignment at another, we go on duty at our home location and must show a deadhead to and a return deadhead from the other terminal.  The time deadheading to the other terminal cuts into available work time.  If you use up 1 hr deadheading to, you only have 11 hours left to work.)  Unless you are going to have dedicated crews at Boone and Creston.  Then you really have not changed much.

Jeff           

[zugmann]

Nah, nothing wrong with thinking outside the box.  But thinking outside the realm of reality?

 

Instead of dealing with the core problem of scheduling crews (if it can be done), you just propose another piece of technology that promises miracles.   Snake oil salesmen live on.

 

And please forgive me if I don't gush over every idea that is "proposed/announced/or under investigation".  Wake me when there's something ready to buy or use.

[Anonymous]

zugmann

Serious?  By proposing some magical bullet?  And now you are proposing this bullet will be ready in a year?

Give me a break, Bucyrus.  We're discussing actual proposals (And their downfalls) and all you can do is play make-believe with some magical invention.

Still, me and the rest of the operating guys will await eagerly for this magical bullet.  Let's all come back to this thread in one year.  How about it?

 

PS.  Maybe the problem has no solution.  There's people that work daytime, regular shifts that suffer from lack of sleep.  I think the downfall is when we started measuring time (or was it when we discovered fire?).  Before that, the world was probably simple - sleep when tired, and be awake when not.

 

I did not say it would be ready in a year, just that we would hear it announced as the solution under development within a year.  Probably hear about it from the NTSB.  I would not exactly call it a magic bullet though.  I will be quite a sophisticated little gizmo.

What's the matter?  Can't handle a little "outside-the-box" thinking?    

[blownout cylinder]

mmmm...and what, pray tell, does that tell us of those in the healthcare sector who work nights in our hospitals and urgent care centers and such? 

Anyone try working on-call for 72 hour stretches?

[zugmann]

Serious?  By proposing some magical bullet?  And now you are proposing this bullet will be ready in a year?

Give me a break, Bucyrus.  We're discussing actual proposals (And their downfalls) and all you can do is play make-believe with some magical invention.

Still, me and the rest of the operating guys will await eagerly for this magical bullet.  Let's all come back to this thread in one year.  How about it?

 

PS.  Maybe the problem has no solution.  There's people that work daytime, regular shifts that suffer from lack of sleep.  I think the downfall is when we started measuring time (or was it when we discovered fire?).  Before that, the world was probably simple - sleep when tired, and be awake when not.

 

[Anonymous]

zugmann

Umm?  No.

Again, there's a difference between sleeping, fatigued, exhausted and tired.   You can be fatigued, but not falling asleep.  But you may lose focus, which is how a lot of people end up hurt or dead.

Perfect 21st century solution though:  let's just use technology!  Pfft.

 

There is no silver bullet here, folks.  No simple machine, no simple computer program or work rule is going to solve this problem.

Gee, it almost sounds like a problem you don't want to solve.  Maybe it is really not that big of a problem after all.  Earlier, some had suggested that I was not taking the problem seriously enough.  So now I get serious, and I am told that we just will live with this problem.  It sounds almost like a pet. 

But technologically, it won't be hard to fix.  I'll bet you that we actually hear about this breakthrough development within a year.  It will be like a dead man control, but it will be far more sophisticated.  It will be able to detect whether a person is sleeping, fatigued, exhausted, or tired.  It is really not far fetched at all.  I'll have to think of a good name for it.     

 

[zugmann]

Bucyrus

The more I think about it, I see this problem being addressed with a technological solution.  Re-structuring the work so that everybody works regular shifts is just way too much to bite off.  And even if you did all that, you would still have people working nightshifts, so the problem will persist from that cause alone.  You could spend a fortune trying to diagnose who is and is not subject to sleep disorders, and then medically treating those people affected.  And even all that is not going to be a surefire remedy. 

 

No, what is needed is a personal monitoring system.  The battle needs to be fought right where the employee falls asleep on the job.  It would be like a personal dead man control.  It won’t prevent people from falling asleep.  But it will prevent them from getting killed if they do fall asleep.  We are right at the doorstep of this technologically, so it should not be any big deal to perfect.  End of problem.   

 

Umm?  No.

Again, there's a difference between sleeping, fatigued, exhausted and tired.   You can be fatigued, but not falling asleep.  But you may lose focus, which is how a lot of people end up hurt or dead.

Perfect 21st century solution though:  let's just use technology!  Pfft.

 

There is no silver bullet here, folks.  No simple machine, no simple computer program or work rule is going to solve this problem.

[Anonymous]

The more I think about it, I see this problem being addressed with a technological solution.  Re-structuring the work so that everybody works regular shifts is just way too much to bite off.  And even if you did all that, you would still have people working nightshifts, so the problem will persist from that cause alone.  You could spend a fortune trying to diagnose who is and is not subject to sleep disorders, and then medically treating those people affected.  And even all that is not going to be a surefire remedy. 

 

No, what is needed is a personal monitoring system.  The battle needs to be fought right where the employee falls asleep on the job.  It would be like a personal dead man control.  It won’t prevent people from falling asleep.  But it will prevent them from getting killed if they do fall asleep.  We are right at the doorstep of this technologically, so it should not be any big deal to perfect.  End of problem.   

[zugmann]

I've always been a night owl.  Torture for me was waking up before 9-10-11 am.  Even back to my school days.  Easy for me to stay up late, hard to wake up early.  I work nights now, and really have no problem with it.   Except to do anything on the weekends, you need to shift your schedule around (yeah, they say you should stay on your work schedule, but there ain't much to do at 3am!) but as Ed pointed out, it means not having to work in the heat of a summer day. 

 

Even our road trains - probably 3/4 of them get called at night.  Just how it goes, esp. with the intermodal schedules and so forth.

[edblysard]

No one forces us to work at night...I don't remember any railroader I ever met who told me someone held a gun on him and forced him to sign up.

I do remember being told, along with the other guys in my class that the hours sucked, holidays were things other people enjoyed, and learning to sleep during the day was a survival tactic.

Every one of us went into this with eyes wide open, (yes, that's a bad pun) but we all were told the pitfalls and the downside.

We were all marked up on the extra board on day one, those that could hack it are still here, those that couldn't are gone.

It's either adapt or fail, in some instances fail means die.

It is a 24 hour a day business, period.

That won't change.

Believe it or not, a lot of the "night crawlers" like working the night shift, its cooler, less traffic, both on the railroad and getting to and from work.

The problem lies in having an extra board that covers day shift, afternoon and night shift all from the same roster, and the bouncing back and forth between all three.

If you could develop a "night extra board" just for the night time runs, you would find the folks that work it were most likely the ones who enjoy the night shift to begin with.

Part of Henry's Pool Crew concept could address just that, let the night crawlers have the night to themselves.

When my daughters were young, I worked the night shift switching the lead and on a relief crew that filled in for road jobs "off days" and loved it.

 I am pretty much a night person to begin with, so there was no upset to my circadian rhythm.

On the other hand, the guys off the extra board, even those who were off two shifts before getting the call for a night job, still seemed out of sorts, not on their game as well as normal.

My railroad even explored lead and yard jobs working four 10 hour days with three days off...never could get past the overtime issue though.

Like Zug said, there will always be overtime hogs and money pigs who would work 12 on 8 off if they could get away with it, but trust me, they don't get much done and not to many folks want to work with them.

I think a lot of this problem could be solved at the hiring process level with serious and in depth interviews along with real background checks and a higher standard of acceptance...instead it still works on the good ole boy network a lot more than you would suspect.

One of the first questions the other railroaders will ask a new hire is "who are you kin to?"

That's what gets a lot of guys hired, who they are kin to, (who you know) as opposed to being a person suited to this kind of lifestyle.

There isn't a "one size fits all" solution to this problem of fatigue, and no, I don't have a complete solution either.

Henry addresses part of it, and it isn't that I think there is anything "wrong" with his concept beyond there not being a clear way for the railroad or the unions to profit from it,  at least not enough money in it for either one to show interest, and that's what it will take for change to occur.

Sucks, but money talks, and as horrible as it sounds, for railroads, it cheaper for accidents like this to happen and be cleaned up, suits settled and survivors paid than it is to radically alter the way they staff their railroad.

And while I agree this accident could and should have been prevented, on a percentage basis, against how many trains run annually against how many fatal accidents happen, well there is no other transportation industry that can stand up, although I think barge companies are close.

We move more stuff more miles with less trains and less crews than ever before, and the fatalities are on average, dropping.

Go back and look at the stats from say, the golden era of railroading, and you will find a daily death among T&E employees.

Go back only 20 years, and the rate is still twice what it is today.

Not to say any death is acceptable, because it isn't, but realistically, the odds are in favor of it happening.

Is the zero fatality concept a good one?

Yes.

Is it obtainable?

No, I don't think so.

Should we keep trying?

Yes.

Are the majority of fatal accidents preventable?

Yes, but there is no one solution, and any combination of solutions won't be simple, easy or inexpensive, and until a solution that profits both the railroad and the employee in real, monetary terms shows up, not much will change.

Not pretty, but that's the way railroading works.

See Zugs earlier post, he puts it quite bluntly....if the job sucks too much, he will quit and find another one.

Look at it this way...

If a police officer gets killed in the line of duty, we all mourn, express sympathy, we feel bad for his survivors and express anger and outrage at his or her killer.

But no one ever suggests police officers should not be expected to put themselves in harm's way, it's part of the job after all, and that is what we pay them for, to deal with inherently dangerous situations involving criminals, right?

Guess what...railroading is inherently dangerous.

Locomotives that weigh 220 tons, dragging 9000 trailing tons of stuff are dangerous to be around, ride and work on.

It's part of the job, and we are paid to accept that danger.

All of us are well aware we could get killed, often in silly, stupid ways, sometime in horrible ways, some times for reason that should never be allowed to happen, but that's what we get paid for.

Not macho chest thumping, and not seriously comparing what we do to the dangers of police work, but it is part of the deal we struck.

Could the deal be changed to make it safer?

Yup, but I don't think the public will like what it does to the cost of a lot of the things they buy, and I know the railroads won't like what it does to their bottom line nor will railroaders like what it does to their paycheck.

Currently, it is a risk I am willing to accept.

Bucyrus

For as long as I can remember, any time the topic of railroad train service employment came up, the first thing to be mentioned was the lousy hours and days off.  It has always been complaint number-one.  That has probably been the case for over a century.  So one has to be skeptical when science and medicine suddenly discovers that irregular work schedules are a deadly serious health and safety hazard.  Not saying that the science is not 100% pure and true, but it is an interesting coincidence that it just so happens to be a scientific conclusion that gives labor the one thing they want most.  Even if the problem is never eliminated, it is at least a reason to be paid more, or given the same pay for fewer hours.     

 

I can recall not too long ago, there were no theories about night shift fatigue being related to schedule irregularity going back several days or weeks.  That had simply never occurred to anyone.  The only obvious explanation for being exceptionally tired at night was not getting enough sleep during the previous day.  And because the rest of the world was up and running during the daytime, it was easy to get caught up in that flow, getting things done that needed to be done, and not get enough sleep as a consequence.  So the general belief was that the main problem with night work was relatively greater difficulty of sleeping during the day.  But basically, everybody believed that if you got sufficient sleep during the day, there would be no difficulty in staying awake at night. 

 

But now we know that is not true.  Deadly sleep disorders can have a cause that has nothing to do with how much sleep you got the day before.  Instead, they can be caused simply by the fact that you work at night and sleep during the day.  Or they could be the result of a varying work schedule for the last few weeks.   Both of these scenarios can cause deadly sleep disorders in people who have never had any lack of sleep. 

 

So, to me, it seems like the proponents of workplace safety have handed the railroad industry the biggest bombshell ever.  The industry has no choice but to deal with it.  They have to fix the problem that their scheduling causes.  The NTSB has told us that the problem caused the death of the crew last year in the Iowa collision.  It is too bad it took over 100 years to discover the problem.  I wonder how many other deaths have been caused by railroads forcing their people to work nights.   

[zugmann]

Bucyrus

 

 

 

 

The bombshell is not the nightwork.  The bombshell is the sudden determination that nightwork is killing people, and so it needs to be modified and regulated in a way that makes it safe.   

 

Brought to you by people that never had to work nights a day in their life, I'm betting.

 

Besides, one notation in an obscure report is not what I call a "bombshell".   A medical report about the dangers of shift/night work is not a bombshell, either.  Pretty much anyone that has worked nights or unpredictable schedules can tell you it ain't the same as working days.  But it is a necessary evil.   Recommendations by yet another alphabet agency mean little. 

 

I know certain forum posters love to take stuff like this and run, but really, it isn't going to amount to much of anything.

[Anonymous]

zugmann

As far as the "bombshell" of night work - meh, I doubt it.  The world is a 24/7 environment, not just us, but retail, warehousing, the few factories left, anything dealing with transportation, healthcare, public safety - there will always be people working at night.  Period.

The bombshell is not the nightwork.  The bombshell is the sudden determination that nightwork is killing people, and so it needs to be modified and regulated in a way that makes it safe.   

[zugmann]

samfp1943

 

   So just brace yourselves for more onerous job rules, at some point, regarding T&E Crews and their hours.

 

I really don't care.  If it happens - it happens.  If it doesn't, it doesn't.  Just tell me when to go to work, pay me a few bucks, and all is well.  If it sucks too much - I'll go find another job.

[samfp1943]

zugmann

 

[snip} "...As far as the "bombshell" of night work - meh, I doubt it.  The world is a 24/7 environment, not just us, but retail, warehousing, the few factories left, anything dealing with transportation, healthcare, public safety - there will always be people working at night.  Period...." [snip]

Bucyrus said:

".....So, to me, it seems like the proponents of workplace safety have handed the railroad industry the biggest bombshell ever.  The industry has no choice but to deal with it.  They have to fix the problem that their scheduling causes.  The NTSB has told us that the problem caused the death of the crew last year in the Iowa collision.  It is too bad it took over 100 years to discover the problem.  I wonder how many other deaths have been caused by railroads forcing their people to work nights..."   

Work schedules to 365 days, and anytime in a 24 hour day, 7 seven days a week.  The Iowa (BNSF) incident was not the the start, but the latest incident, over time.  Remember the Colgan Air Crash in the Buffalo, NY area in 2009?

lhttp://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2012/03/faa_seeks_to_fine_regional_air.htm

FTL:"...Continental Connection Flight 3407, which was operated by Colgan for Continental Airlines, crashed on Feb. 12, 2009, near Buffalo, killing 50 people. Although crew scheduling wasn’t an issue in the accident, the National Transportation Safety Board said the performance of both pilots was likely impaired by fatigue. The board blamed the crash on an error by the flight’s captain.

The accident prompted the FAA to overhaul its regulations on flight crew scheduling for the first time in decades in an effort to ensure pilots can get adequate rest..."

    As I had previously noted these Fatigue studies date back possibly 15 to 20 years in various concerns expressed by the DOT, and referencing the Transportation Industry.

If anything these incidents have created 'Collateral Damage' within the rail road world. So the regulators are going to do what they do, Regulate.  So just brace yourselves for more onerous job rules, at some point, regarding T&E Crews and their hours.

[zugmann]

henry6

 

 

B: PoolCrew Company would take into account guys who don't want road jobs, don't want days away from home, want to be home everynight, only switch or yard jobs, only want road jobs, only first trick only second trick, only third trick,, has to have Wednesdays or Tuesday nights off, whatever,  PoolCrew Company taylors the work assignments to the individual hired as well as for the railroads under contract.

 

If PoolCrew could do it, my hat's off to them.  But that is a VERY tall order for a railroad terminal.   It will involve a lot more people working.  Not a bad thing.. but may mean less money for everyone else.  That may be a bad thing...

 

As far as the "bombshell" of night work - meh, I doubt it.  The world is a 24/7 environment, not just us, but retail, warehousing, the few factories left, anything dealing with transportation, healthcare, public safety - there will always be people working at night.  Period.

[henry6]

zugmann

You will get some friction with the one giant pool idea.  Heck, the railroads could easily do that if they wanted to:  they would just abolish all regular jobs and slammed everybody onto one giant extra list.  Why don't they?  Who is going to want to work 30+ years being extra? 

 

Plus, different guys like different kinds of service.  Some are road loads, some are yardbirds, and others are local yokels.  Most people usually settle in one category, while a few do go back and forth.  There's also yardbirds that like one yard but despise another.  Road loads that love running to "A", but absolutely detest going to "B".  So while working times may get a little more regular - the assignments you work will not.  Worth the trade-off for regular hours?  I don't think the majority would agree with that.

 

 

A: Up to now, there has been no reason or compelling reasons for the railroads or unions to do anything different than what they are already doing.  It is not so much as they haven't wanted to as much as it is that they haven't needed to.  Fatigue, et al is a problem for them which is being diagnosed in ways it has never been diagnosed before.  Therefore whatever they've been doing isn't the cure...something completely different has to be found.  And as I, and others have offered, railroading is not the only industry where fatigue is under scrutiny.

B: PoolCrew Company would take into account guys who don't want road jobs, don't want days away from home, want to be home everynight, only switch or yard jobs, only want road jobs, only first trick only second trick, only third trick,, has to have Wednesdays or Tuesday nights off, whatever,  PoolCrew Company taylors the work assignments to the individual hired as well as for the railroads under contract.

[Anonymous]

For as long as I can remember, any time the topic of railroad train service employment came up, the first thing to be mentioned was the lousy hours and days off.  It has always been complaint number-one.  That has probably been the case for over a century.  So one has to be skeptical when science and medicine suddenly discovers that irregular work schedules are a deadly serious health and safety hazard.  Not saying that the science is not 100% pure and true, but it is an interesting coincidence that it just so happens to be a scientific conclusion that gives labor the one thing they want most.  Even if the problem is never eliminated, it is at least a reason to be paid more, or given the same pay for fewer hours.     

 

I can recall not too long ago, there were no theories about night shift fatigue being related to schedule irregularity going back several days or weeks.  That had simply never occurred to anyone.  The only obvious explanation for being exceptionally tired at night was not getting enough sleep during the previous day.  And because the rest of the world was up and running during the daytime, it was easy to get caught up in that flow, getting things done that needed to be done, and not get enough sleep as a consequence.  So the general belief was that the main problem with night work was relatively greater difficulty of sleeping during the day.  But basically, everybody believed that if you got sufficient sleep during the day, there would be no difficulty in staying awake at night. 

 

But now we know that is not true.  Deadly sleep disorders can have a cause that has nothing to do with how much sleep you got the day before.  Instead, they can be caused simply by the fact that you work at night and sleep during the day.  Or they could be the result of a varying work schedule for the last few weeks.   Both of these scenarios can cause deadly sleep disorders in people who have never had any lack of sleep. 

 

So, to me, it seems like the proponents of workplace safety have handed the railroad industry the biggest bombshell ever.  The industry has no choice but to deal with it.  They have to fix the problem that their scheduling causes.  The NTSB has told us that the problem caused the death of the crew last year in the Iowa collision.  It is too bad it took over 100 years to discover the problem.  I wonder how many other deaths have been caused by railroads forcing their people to work nights.   

[henry6]

Point out flaws..  And if you do, send a correction not a condmnation..   Talk in terms of fixing the problem at hand instead of shooting the messenger.  

 

[zugmann]

You will get some friction with the one giant pool idea.  Heck, the railroads could easily do that if they wanted to:  they would just abolish all regular jobs and slammed everybody onto one giant extra list.  Why don't they?  Who is going to want to work 30+ years being extra? 

 

Plus, different guys like different kinds of service.  Some are road loads, some are yardbirds, and others are local yokels.  Most people usually settle in one category, while a few do go back and forth.  There's also yardbirds that like one yard but despise another.  Road loads that love running to "A", but absolutely detest going to "B".  So while working times may get a little more regular - the assignments you work will not.  Worth the trade-off for regular hours?  I don't think the majority would agree with that.

 

 

[Georgia Railroader]

henry6

I don't drink beer.  And I don't cry.  I'm actually laughing because I figured that no one would actually be too enthused about the idea, especially railroaders who do, and have always done, the same thing the same way forever and ever..

Why do you act so appalled that not everyone goes along with your idea? You pitched an idea that not everyone buys into and now you're kicking dirt around. Get over it. The sun will come up tomorrow and my company will run trains the way they have for years, we will go to work and make money just like we have for years, and without this poolcrew idea. I can take all the criticism in the world, it doesn't bother me in the least, you on the other hand....Like I said dont get all mad when experience points out flaws in the plan.

[henry6]

But if I have a company which employees and assignes crews, a crew called for 8AM witha train that won't show up until 11AM can be moved to another assignment because I have maybe 40 or 50 assignements that morning.  My crews are qualified for whatever because my system, my contracts, is designed to deal with what ever should come up.  Maybe I know that I have to make out 100 assignments every 24 hours for any number of railroads and situtaitons from my location, not based on railroad locations and bases.  PoolCrew has carte blanc in assigning and managing the crews and not antiquated rules, divisions, whatever is now in effect.  It is a whole new world with only the cab of the locomotive the same as it is now.

[BaltACD]

The hallmark of a crewing system that crews can be truly rested and ready for their work is predictability.  For train A to have it's crew called at 8 AM every time from the home terminal - work to the away from home terminal in 8-12 hours - marks off and goes to away from home lodging and is rested and ready for the 8 AM return train to the home terminal.  That is the ideal - it is not reality.

Now a touch of reality

Crew is called for train A at 8 AM - train arrives at 11:30 having activated a defect detector  30 miles from A and having to set out a car.  Crew now has 7'30" to make a 8 hour run - everyone acknowledges this will be a Recrew - but when do you call it and where do you send it (and is this crew actually rested vs. rested by statute and it will take a minimum of 2 hours to get the crew on duty from either home or away terminals - then the recrew will have to be transported to a point to meet the dieing train; normally with a van service that may or may not be on time and may or may not know specifically where to meet the dieing train).  The original crew makes their way to their away from home terminal and marks off at 11 PM, having accrued 3 hours 'Limbo Time'; which mean, instead of 10 hours undisturbed rest the crew must have 13 hours undisturbed rest which also means the earliest the crew could go on duty, if they they were notified to show up at the conclusion of their undisturbed period would 12 Noon, if they would be required to answer a call to go on duty, they could get called at 12 Noon and go on duty at 2 PM  - either of which will be too late for the assigned return train, if it is on time.

Reality has a way of derailing just about ANY reliance on assigned starting times, and this applies on both ends of the run.  My carrier tried a plan to increase the number of Assigned crews several years ago - it broke down as operating specific trains across multiple divisions in the relatively narrow time frames necessary for a assigned crew system to function,  When assigned trains don't operate within the required windows to make the system work, the expenses go up either in utilizing 'extra crew' to operate the train on time when the assigned crew isn't rested, and then deadheading the assigned crew to be in position at the other end of the run; or the train is delayed to await the assigned crew coming rested.

At various locations on my company's property, they have implemented virtually any and every crew calling scheme that the brotherhoods have presented to the carrier as enhancing the rest and quality of life - none of those 'test' environments so far have proven good enough for all parties involved to be implemented system wide.

[zugmann]

henry6

I don't drink beer.  And I don't cry.  I'm actually laughing because I figured that no one would actually be too enthused about the idea, especially railroaders who do, and have always done, the same thing the same way forever and ever..

 

Hey now, did everyone skip over my reply?

[henry6]

I don't drink beer.  And I don't cry.  I'm actually laughing because I figured that no one would actually be too enthused about the idea, especially railroaders who do, and have always done, the same thing the same way forever and ever..

[edblysard]

Ok...let's hear your better idea.

I don't mind criticism...but don't like out of hand "it won't work because I know better" is not criticism.   And real criticism, points of criticism, I have tried to answer or counter with ideas or answers...it seems those who criticize me can't take criticism.  If you cant' take criticism and counter answers, they why bother crticizing on a public forum?

I proposed an idea.  I expected it to be criticized.  I have answers and counter answers which I also expected to be criticized.  I don't want to be nor like personal criticism,  Unless you can truthfully and factually criticize my plan with other than emotional knee jerk 'we've never done it this way, we can't do it this way, we don't want to do it this way, you can't know because you aren't one of us" then why shouldn't I stand up for my premise and give straight answers?  So, please, if you, or anyone else, has a different answer or solution, or constructive crtiticism of my suggestion, please present it without denegrating me or my idea. 

 

I didn't see where anyone said that....

Have seen where guys who do this for a living both endorsed part of your idea, and criticized parts of it.

Haven't seen where it became personal in that anyone attacked you, only the idea.

The "It's my football, and if you don't let me be quarterback I taking the ball and going home" routine is a little below what I expected from you.

What I did expect from you it to debate the idea, deal with each criticism on a one on one basis, each point and exception that was taken  I expected you to counter with an expanded  explanation....

Crying in your beer won't cut it.

[Anonymous]

henry6

I don't mind criticism...but don't like out of hand "it won't work because I know better" is not criticism.  

Henry,

 

People who come up with new ideas have to expect criticism.  And they also have to expect that some of that criticism will seem unfair or even be unfair.  It goes with the territory.  The pioneers have to take the arrows.  They always say that if you invent a better mousetrap, the world will beat a path to your door.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  You can invent the perfect mousetrap and the world will howl with derision. 

 

And that’s just for mousetraps.  What you are proposing is a monumental change.    

[blownout cylinder]

I don't know about you but I prefer people being awake when operating any kind of vehicle .....

[henry6]

Georgia Railroader

henry6:

Once inside the box, evidently,  always inside the box.  Well, I see I am not going to win anybody over here.  And it is just an idea I thought I'd throw out.  Evidently I should go find my own box and stay there. I'm just not going to bang my head against the sides....

 

Like I said, dont get sand in your crack just because people who know far more than you do about the subject find holes in your plan. Did you just expect folks to welcome it with open arms or something? As far as this inside the box BS you spew, just because I dont go along with your plan doesn't mean I'm close minded, I'm just expressing my right to disagree with you. If you cant take criticism then why bother posting this on a public forum?

Ok...let's hear your better idea.

I don't mind criticism...but don't like out of hand "it won't work because I know better" is not criticism.   And real criticism, points of criticism, I have tried to answer or counter with ideas or answers...it seems those who criticize me can't take criticism.  If you cant' take criticism and counter answers, they why bother crticizing on a public forum?

I proposed an idea.  I expected it to be criticized.  I have answers and counter answers which I also expected to be criticized.  I don't want to be nor like personal criticism,  Unless you can truthfully and factually criticize my plan with other than emotional knee jerk 'we've never done it this way, we can't do it this way, we don't want to do it this way, you can't know because you aren't one of us" then why shouldn't I stand up for my premise and give straight answers?  So, please, if you, or anyone else, has a different answer or solution, or constructive crtiticism of my suggestion, please present it without denegrating me or my idea. 

[zugmann]

I don't think there is a single railroader that hasn't sat around thinking about how to better crew trains.  The problem is there is always a tradeoff. The equivalent exchange, if you will, of railroad work: do you want time off and a normal(ish) life or do you want money? 

There are money-hungry people out here that would live on the rails if you'd allow them.  Whatever the reason, the more work the better.  Then you have the opposite extreme - people allergic to overtime.  And every flavor in between.  Getting them to agree on anything is like herding cats with a water-shooting vacuum cleaner. 

Henry6 proposes a contracting service for train crews.  Heck, Herzog does that.  But herzog doesn't pay into RR retirement, from what I hear.  There's also Veolia, and I hear Virgin is getting into the rail business, too (across the pond, I guess).  There might even be some contracting firms that supply T&E for shortlines/regional/industries.    The big union class-1 guys probably aren't too keen on contracting outfits.  Too much stretching the dollar, as others on here have already pointed out.  Just look at the crew haulers -  Nuff' said. 

As far as making guys salary - well, managers are salaried.  And even though it can suck in the wallet to get called for basic days or low mileage trains several times in a row (missing out on those high mileage or high OT $$$$$ jobs), we also see how those managers are treated.  100 hours a week+.  I fear if we were  salaried, we would be used to the last drop every single day, just like Maxwell House.  There would be no more basic 8 hour day.  I don't want to work 12 hours every day.  I've done that for months on end.  Money is good, but sheesh... work, sleep, work, sleep, work, sleep is no life.  

 

Now, if you would take a large terminal with trains coming in from several lines and home to a few yards.. you could have crews with regular start times.    A large terminal may have different seniority districts covering different lines.  And there's yard lists and road lists.  Road trains may have assigned crews.  Or assigned pools.  Or be extra.   If you would wipe the slate clean, and (here's the magic word that some railroads are afraid to hear) QUALIFY the men to work different directions and different yards, and the various locals, then I think you could set up a system where you could assign x-number of men to show up at y-time to take a job.  Probably wouldn't have advanced knowledge of which job they would hold, so Monday it may be a yard job.  Tuesday a local.  Wednesday a road train going east.  Friday a road train going south.   It would give you normalcy in times, but not in the type of work you are doing (or what type of money you are making).  Again, equivalent exchange. And you would have to almost do a salary as Henry pointed out.

Heck, I even heard some guys float around an idea where you'd work 2-3 weeks and get a week off.  That way you could (well, should) try to concentrate all home activities on the off period, where the work period would be devoted to working and sleeping.

 

I think that's all for now....(probably put everyone to sleep).

 

 

[Georgia Railroader]

henry6

Once inside the box, evidently,  always inside the box.  Well, I see I am not going to win anybody over here.  And it is just an idea I thought I'd throw out.  Evidently I should go find my own box and stay there. I'm just not going to bang my head against the sides....

Like I said, dont get sand in your crack just because people who know far more than you do about the subject find holes in your plan. Did you just expect folks to welcome it with open arms or something? As far as this inside the box BS you spew, just because I dont go along with your plan doesn't mean I'm close minded, I'm just expressing my right to disagree with you. If you cant take criticism then why bother posting this on a public forum?

[zugmann]

Bucyrus

 

 

 

I am not saying it is junk science or settled science, but if it is anywhere in between, it should be full red alert to deal with it.  And yet, I don’t sense that it is taken that seriously.  So, I am wondering, why is there a disconnect between a newly discovered medical condition that can suddenly render a victim unconscious without warning, and the lackadaisical response to it?  

 

Difference between a proactive and a reactive industry?

[edblysard]

Hold up there Henry,

I didn't mention nor do I care if you are or are not a railroader...this isn't the only industry with 24/7 staffing issues, try the petrochemical business, plants and refineries run full bore all the time.

As for not accepting your idea, no, I don't really, but not based on your lack of railroading, but simply because I can't work the numbers to make it cost effective for either the railroad or the Pool Crew company.

Railroads squeeze the payroll dime so tight the poor thing screams!

They will not pay extra on that front even if it means well rested crews....

You will have to show them, and me a marked increase in profits resulting from you pool crew concept before they will even begin to discuss the idea.

Trains magazine had an article back in around 1997? or so,  it address the concept of pool crews, along with having a train dedicated to trucks, you drove on, parked, went to a dorm on the train, which had a restaurant, showers, rec room, all that fun stuff.

The train was to be staffed by a pool crew concept, 8 on 8 off, with the crew using the same dorm facilities the truckers did.

It went into great detail about the cost saving to the trucking company, one driver who didn't have to worry about his log book and HOS because he wanst driving anywhere...except when the train reached its final destination, he simply drove off and finished his run.

Great idea, the article covered all the bases, but in the end, the author concluded it would not be profitable to the railroad or the truckers.

Simply put, show me the money....

As for Bucyrus and the junk science...

I think what may be is point is that the NTSB report has a statement that, based on a simple computer questionnaire, the crew could have self-diagnose a sleep disorder, then later in the same report it offers a disclaimer stating the science used in the computer program may need peer review and shouldn't be considered valid until then...so why use that "science" as proof of a sleep issue and then disclaim it?

Sleep disorders are real, documented, and treatable, some with lifestyle changes, some with medication, some require surgery, some can't be treated at all.

I think his issue is this, is the "science" used there is valid, or simply a tool to be used to discipline employees.

If its valid, why the disclaimer,?

If not valid, why try to promote it?

[schlimm]

Not everything in medicine can be diagnosed with a simple blood test.  That's why good clinically- experienced diagnosticians have to take the time to check a wide variety of symptoms, rule out, rule in and come up with a Dx if there is one.  Definitely true in my field.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

Bucyrus

  [snipped - PDN] There has to be testing just like drug testing.  How else can you deal with this kind of threat?  You don’t discover a medical condition that is likely to affect many of your employees without checking to see which ones are affected, and which are not.  If it is a diagnosable condition, then every employee needs to be checked out to guarantee that they don't have it. 

The technical diagnostic problem is, it's an intermittent or transient phenomenon, which doesn't repeat predictably, and may vary according to previous and existing conditions that are not susceptible to or capable of easy, objective, or consistent measurement and recordation.

To adapt from Russian Gen. Col. Pavel Leonidovich Alekseyev in Tom Clancy's 1986 military novel Red Storm Rising: "[Running a railroad] is not an exercise in mathematics. We deal with people, not numbers. Numbers have their own special kind of perfection. People remain people no matter what we try to do with them." [emphasis added - PDN] 

- Paul North. 

[zardoz]

It is interesting to see how fast the feds imposed new regulation after that crash in California where the commuter train "engineer" was texting and ran the red signal.  The authorities are ready and willing to impose draconian rules as long as it doesn't cost the almighty corporations (or the government) anything.  But to address such a serious issue as sleep deprivation, and it seems the onus is on the employee to do something about itn.

[schlimm]

Unless they are able to convincingly show with unbiased empirical research that the various sleep disorders are merely "junk science" [and I seriously doubt this] then the pressure from the medical community, the NTSB, unions and litigation will force the railroads to address this issue, whether they want to or not.

According to NSF's 2005 Sleep in America poll, 14% of Americans do shift work . Compared to their day shift counterparts, shift workers are more likely to suffer from insomnia as well as excessive daytime sleepiness (61% vs. 47% and 30% vs. 18% respectively). Shift workers are also more likely to drive while fatigued and almost twice as likely to fall asleep at the wheel.

Within the International Classification of Sleep Disorders (1997, 2001), there are many types.  here are the relevant ones:

Obstructive Sleep Apnea Syndrome . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 780.53-0
Central Sleep Apnea Syndrome . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 780.51-0
Central Alveolar Hypoventilation Syndrome . . . . . . . . . . . 780.51-1

Shift Work Sleep Disorder . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 307.45-1
Irregular Sleep-Wake Pattern . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 307.45-3
Delayed Sleep-Phase Syndrome. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 780.55-0
Advanced Sleep-phase Syndrome . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 780.55-1
Non-24-Hour Sleep-Wake Disorder . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 780.55-2
Circadian Rhythm Sleep Disorder NOS . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 780.55-9

[Anonymous]

henry6

And you're not going to get an answer, Bucyrus.  No theory or idea will be discussed seriously and no one has any other ideas other than what I proposed. 

Oh, there is another idea besides the one you proposed.  That is that the railroads, on their own, make sure that none of the operating people have sleep disorders.  We are told that we must take sleep disorders very seriously.  But I don’t sense that the railroad road industry is taking sleep disorders as seriously as the medical profession or the NTSB is taking them.      

[henry6]

And you're not going to get an answer, Bucyrus.  No theory or idea will be discussed seriously and no one has any other ideas other than what I proposed.  And just because neither you nor I are railroaders, we don't know whereof we speak...and have been asked not to.  Or told not to. 

[Anonymous]

I am not challenging the validity of sleep disorders.  Nor am I proposing how to deal with the problem or endorsing Henry's pool idea.  I see the pool as just a way to restructure labor, but offering no particular solution to the sleep problem.  I only thow out the terms "junk science" and "settled science" to stake out the subject based on what other can tell us.   

I would not be asking the question but for the fact of the absolutly incredible postion on sleep disorders that the NTSB has staked out in their accident report on the Iowa collision.   If you listen to the NTSB, the house is on fire.  So my only question is this:  What are you going to do about it?  

That is the core of my concern in starting this thread.  I am still waiting for the answer. 

[samfp1943]

[quote user="Bucyrus"]

 

zugmann:

 

 

Bucyrus:

According to the NTSB report, working irregular schedules causes sleep disorders including the inability to stay awake at times.  It this settled science?  Or is it agenda-driven junk science? 

 

If it is settled science, it poses a very large problem for the railroad industry.  Many railroaders work irregular schedules.  How can it be acceptable that they are working at tasks where a loss of attention can prove fatal, and yet, they are subject to involuntarily falling asleep at any time?

 

If what the NTSB says about irregular schedules causing sleep disorders is true, then one of two things must be done:

 

1)      Eliminate irregular work schedules.

2)      Test all employees working irregular schedules for sleep   disorders, and remove from service any employees found to be afflicted.  

 

 

 

Anyone that works an irregular schedule can attest that it is not "junk science".  Just curious if you ever had the pleasure, Bucyrus?    With the railroads you get the double-whammy.  You get irregular schedules, and UNPREDICTABLE schedules if you are a flea on the extra list. So you don't know whether you are going to go to work in 10 hours or 30.  Try getting proper rest under those circumstances. 

 

As for your suggestions:  (1.) will probably never be 100% achievable due to the nature of the beast.  There are ways to make the job more scheduled, but it would probably require new contract rules regarding territory covered and whatnot.  

 

And (2.): I know if my railroad suspects someone has a medical sleep issue, they are pulled out of service immediately and won't be allowed to re-enter service without their doctor's and the company medical dep't's permission.

 

 

Yes, I have had the pleasure of fighting that battle many moons ago.  I know first hand that nighttime railroading is incredibly sleep inducing. 

 

I am not saying it is junk science or settled science, but if it is anywhere in between, it should be full red alert to deal with it.  And yet, I don’t sense that it is taken that seriously.  So, I am wondering, why is there a disconnect between a newly discovered medical condition that can suddenly render a victim unconscious without warning, and the lackadaisical response to it?  Granted, it may not afflict everyone who works irregular schedules, but you don’t run trains until you know who is at risk and who is not.  So merely taking action against an employee suspected of having a sleep disorder is not enough. 

 

There has to be testing just like drug testing.  How else can you deal with this kind of threat?  You don’t discover a medical condition that is likely to affect many of your employees without checking to see which ones are affected, and which are not.  If it is a diagnosable condition, then every employee needs to be checked out to guarantee that they don't have it.  

[/quote]

Georgia Railroader replied on 05-05-2012 5:17 PM

Reply More

If there's one thing I've learned in my time out here it's that you will never and I mean never get all the men to agree to one thing. You can never get everyone on board as everyone has their own idea,agendas, plans, whatever. The RR will go for whatever benefits them the most which is something that usually ends up screwing us in the long run. This is why most of us are really hesitant about any kind of change because it's almost always never in our favor. 

I'm not trying to start a war with you about this. You post this up on a message board, and unless you live in a fantasy world  you have to expect some people to disagree with you. That's all I'm doing, hell I have a right to do so. I give you credit for trying, but I honestly believe business will go on as usual until the feds get even more involved with our business and force the RR's to do something differently. 

For now the best way to not be dead tired at work is to make the most of your off time, which can be impossible because of family,chores, errands ect.ect.ect.ect.ect. It's a viscous never ending cycle. It's railroading..

 Not trying to exacerbate a fight on this topic, but to first address what Bucyrus said referencing the aspect of Fatigue, Micro Naps, and effects of Individual Circadian Rhythem cycles  on work related Fatigue caused incidents.

Work related fatigue research is not all junk science, Just prior to the turn of the 21st Century, the American Trucking Assoc and DOT got very interest and funded many research projects referencing fatigue, in the Transportation Industry.  There was quite a bit of research done in their own facilities with regards to OTR  Driver Related issues. I was able to attend several seminars conducted on the subject of fatigue. Much of that research could be transferable to the Railroad Industry as well as Trucking.  

 Both skill sets for T&E Crews and OTR Drivers require strict attention to details happening out side of their work stations, Repetition of work functions, the main difference is the lack of having to steer for the T&E Crew. Both happen to work over varing segment of daylight to dark conditions and vice-versa.   The hardest part of the day for me was immediately pre-sunrise, after having been driving at night. Both groups did have various radios to communicate with their work environment and others around their locations. Toi sit behind a wheel while droning along for a long period of time on a straight strretch of Interstate or other road, is similar to a T&E employee droning along with a strong engine noise filling their whole body with a viberation, while wearing ear plugs(?) contributes to the on set of a Micro-Nap.

I goes without saying that most individuals working an irregular schedule have their Circadian Rhythem all out of sync to their normal.

Human Nature (and its differences) are another aspect of the Human physiology that affects individuals and how they handle their work environment.   How do you guarantee (for a Driver/T&E Leasing Service?) that each employee dispatched is "Rested and 100% ready to go to work?  It just doesn't happen, too many other circumstances come into play: anything from Car trouble, to sick kids or spouse; can cause an individual to come to work in a fatigued condition. Those kinds of variables are so random as to be almost uncontrollable,IMHO.

  All of this is said, and then you get to the real hot button of Union Contracts and those effects on Workplace performance of T&E personnel. I'll let someone else open that can of worms.  Most of what I've mentioned is applicable to Large Railroad employees.  The other side of that coin is the Short Line employees. I can't speeds to that but I am aware that Short Lines operated an awful lot of trains with one crewman on board. They have to roll at reduced speeds for long periods, admittedly, in some cases I think they do have some help that may be working with them but not on board the train. They work out of a pickup and that help being mobile can keep the engineer from having to detrain to throw switches and other functions to save the engineer from having to get on and off the train.

[schlimm]

Here we have a great example of what happens when you have two people who know nothing about the problem, either from direct experience with the rails in one case or a willingness to accept the opinion of medical science.  Why the insistence in throwing around the term "junk science" just because one doesn't like its implications?  I'm sure both Henry and Bucyrus mean well, but neither have the experience or knowledge to propose the temp service or to challenge the validity and dangers of sleep disorders.

[henry6]

Once inside the box, evidently,  always inside the box.  Well, I see I am not going to win anybody over here.  And it is just an idea I thought I'd throw out.  Evidently I should go find my own box and stay there. I'm just not going to bang my head against the sides....

[Georgia Railroader]

If there's one thing I've learned in my time out here it's that you will never and I mean never get all the men to agree to one thing. You can never get everyone on board as everyone has their own idea,agendas, plans, whatever. The RR will go for whatever benefits them the most which is something that usually ends up screwing us in the long run. This is why most of us are really hesitant about any kind of change because it's almost always never in our favor. 

I'm not trying to start a war with you about this. You post this up on a message board, and unless you live in a fantasy world  you have to expect some people to disagree with you. That's all I'm doing, hell I have a right to do so. I give you credit for trying, but I honestly believe business will go on as usual until the feds get even more involved with our business and force the RR's to do something differently. 

For now the best way to not be dead tired at work is to make the most of your off time, which can be impossible because of family,chores, errands ect.ect.ect.ect.ect. It's a viscous never ending cycle. It's railroading.... 

[henry6]

Georgia Railroader

 

BECAUSE YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND OUR DAY TO DAY LIVES UNLESS YOU HAVE LIVED IT. Dont pretend to know what someone goes through unless you too have been in their shoes. I dont chime in on OTR trucking talk because it's something I know nothing about, nor will I pretend to by trying to reinvent some wheel that belongs in their world. I'm getting a migraine.

You don't have to walk in everybody's moccasins to see where the problems lie, what solutions have not bee explored, and that those inside the box fighting to get out can't get out.  I have friends in the trucking industry, in airline industry, bus drivers, and railroading....labor and management.   And what I have proposed is based on what I've obeserved, heard, and learned from all of them.  Everybody is looking at what is to fix the problem and no one is looking at what is not.  Maybe for the sake and future of all concerned, a different way of applying manpower has to be discussed.  It is an idea that no one else has proposed, that those inside the box dismiss because they can't think of anything other than the way things are, the schedules, the rules, the pay scale as it is, etc.  And you, Georgia, may be right.  (And by the way this is not necessarily a temp agency, this is a full time company with full time employees with full time jobs.  It is an answer not heard of or investigated yet as far as I know.  It is something, as I said, that railorad companies, unions, employees, and whatever government agency or commission thinks it has a stake.  But all parties have to agree about how it will be operated, etc.  If you don't like it, you don't have to work it as an employee or participate as a railroad.  Go to a railroad not involved or go make pizzas.  I am not saying this is the answer but just an answer that hasn't been explored.  I have heard a few here who understand what I am saying and proposing and many who are dismissing  it out of hand because they either don't uderstand the concept or can't because of their work or other circumstances...I understand.  I also have not heard any other answers.

[Anonymous]

zugmann

Bucyrus:

According to the NTSB report, working irregular schedules causes sleep disorders including the inability to stay awake at times.  It this settled science?  Or is it agenda-driven junk science? 

 

If it is settled science, it poses a very large problem for the railroad industry.  Many railroaders work irregular schedules.  How can it be acceptable that they are working at tasks where a loss of attention can prove fatal, and yet, they are subject to involuntarily falling asleep at any time?

 

If what the NTSB says about irregular schedules causing sleep disorders is true, then one of two things must be done:

 

1)      Eliminate irregular work schedules.

2)      Test all employees working irregular schedules for sleep   disorders, and remove from service any employees found to be afflicted.  

 

 

Anyone that works an irregular schedule can attest that it is not "junk science".  Just curious if you ever had the pleasure, Bucyrus?    With the railroads you get the double-whammy.  You get irregular schedules, and UNPREDICTABLE schedules if you are a flea on the extra list. So you don't know whether you are going to go to work in 10 hours or 30.  Try getting proper rest under those circumstances. 

 

As for your suggestions:  (1.) will probably never be 100% achievable due to the nature of the beast.  There are ways to make the job more scheduled, but it would probably require new contract rules regarding territory covered and whatnot.  

 

And (2.): I know if my railroad suspects someone has a medical sleep issue, they are pulled out of service immediately and won't be allowed to re-enter service without their doctor's and the company medical dep't's permission.

Yes, I have had the pleasure of fighting that battle many moons ago.  I know first hand that nighttime railroading is incredibly sleep inducing. 

 

I am not saying it is junk science or settled science, but if it is anywhere in between, it should be full red alert to deal with it.  And yet, I don’t sense that it is taken that seriously.  So, I am wondering, why is there a disconnect between a newly discovered medical condition that can suddenly render a victim unconscious without warning, and the lackadaisical response to it?  Granted, it may not afflict everyone who works irregular schedules, but you don’t run trains until you know who is at risk and who is not.  So merely taking action against an employee suspected of having a sleep disorder is not enough. 

 

There has to be testing just like drug testing.  How else can you deal with this kind of threat?  You don’t discover a medical condition that is likely to affect many of your employees without checking to see which ones are affected, and which are not.  If it is a diagnosable condition, then every employee needs to be checked out to guarantee that they don't have it.    

[Georgia Railroader]

henry6

 

Georgia Railroader:

 

 

henry6:

No I don't work for a railroad, airline, trucking company, etc.  But so what. 

Kinda figured.

 

 

 

 

What does it matter if I work for a railroad or a plumbing company or am an interior decorator?  I

BECAUSE YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND OUR DAY TO DAY LIVES UNLESS YOU HAVE LIVED IT. Dont pretend to know what someone goes through unless you too have been in their shoes. I dont chime in on OTR trucking talk because it's something I know nothing about, nor will I pretend to by trying to reinvent some wheel that belongs in their world. I'm getting a migraine.

[DwightBranch]

As someone familiar with both driver leasing and driver temp agencies in the trucking industry I must agree with Georgia Railroader, the idea won't work for railroads. I worked for two driver temp agencies GPC Driving (part of the General Personnel Services temp agency) and another called Best Driver. The reason I was with them was that I was a college professor who didn't teach over the summer and wanted to work a bit here and there, and with a temp agency I could refuse work not to my liking and would still be called for other jobs (which I could also refuse). Now, one of the places they sent me to was CVS Pharmacy, which, when they bought Eckert Pharmacy, replaced their own (union) company drivers with a driver service (either Penske or Ryder, I can't remember) which paid less, had lower benefits, and ridiculous  labor accounting that truck drivers found oppressive (the trucks had computers on the dashboard, that every store they stopped at, they had to enter the mileage, the time they arrived, the time they departed, etc). This is a hard job, unloading an entire truck by hand down rollers, including hurricane water, six bottles of gallon-each water on a tray like a case of pop comes on, at around seven stores up to 200 miles away from the terminal. And they couldn't keep drivers, they had such a huge turnover that my temp agency asked me and several others to give it a try, which I did for a few weeks, and then refused to go there again. All of the other drivers I met who worked in the temp agency had mortgages and kids etc. and were looking for a job with a guaranteed paycheck, and  would leave as soon as they could. I just don't see anyone agreeing to the sort of lifestyle required of railroaders (especially the 24-hour on call bit, working on Christmas, etc) without the guaranteed high salary, union work rules etc that the job has now. That is to say, if the railroad doesn't want to give me any loyalty, any security, I won't give them any either. In my opinion the cure for the sleep problem is something like calling windows plus higher pay to make up for the fact that those with seniority won't necesarily get a hot shot if it isn't in their calling window.

[henry6]

zardoz

henry6:

Aside from paying 700 engineers $1600 a week whether the work or not to assure rest periods, guarenteed income, reliefe of stress and abating fatigue, who has another idea?

 

The problem might lie with the fact that some of those 700 will want to work more often (and make more money), while others will be content to work less often in order to have a higher quality of home life, and yet some others have no home life so they don't care, while others want a balance, etc, etc, etc.

If you find a solution that works for one, it will not work for others.

Perhaps a tiered system, where the workaholics can work as often as possible (since they will have no home life, they should have no problem staying rested, as they will likely get out on their rest every trip). Then there can be a second tier, that is guaranteed "X" number of hours off between trips--they can fill the crews that the hog pool cannot. Then there could be a third pool, like a guaranteed extra board; the few that would be needed here could have a set period (like shifts--0800 to 1600, 1600-0000, 0000-0800) in which they can be called (and would be expected to be rested both technically and realistically); if they do not get called, then they would collect their "guarantee" for that day.

How to choose who would work which board would likely have to be determined locally.

Yes, an employee can maybe dictate his desire: home everynight or not, no or all daytime shifts, no ir only weekend shift.  This could be a supplimental, sorta but not like, an employment agency or secretarial pool.  What I hear from crews is that they want to be guaranteed work and thus a salary.  What the railroad wants is a rested and qualified crew when and where they need it.  What the transportation safety people are looking for is a safe operation and the elimination of or workable way of dealing with fatigue.  If one, two, three, no matter how many, railroads can rely on one source to take care of their needs, an engineer or pilot or truck driver is guaranteed a minimum livabale weekly paycheck, and there are no accidents (damage, death, maim, loss of time, stopping operations) then everybody wins.  Maybe there has to be an adjustment in how the work is done, divided, assigned, and payed for.  So be it.  Things have changed before.  Things will change again. 

[henry6]

Georgia Railroader

henry6:

No I don't work for a railroad, airline, trucking company, etc.  But so what. 

Kinda figured.

 

What does it matter if I work for a railroad or a plumbing company or am an interior decorator?  I

[Georgia Railroader]

henry6

No I don't work for a railroad, airline, trucking company, etc.  But so what. 

Kinda figured.

As the PoolCrew COmpany I hire you to be an engineer and guarentee you a five day, 40 hour work week, with full benefits.  To the railroad companies I guarentee a reste and non fatigued, qualified, train crew for every job they have.  The employee will never miss a turn or be holed up for days waiting to be called.  The railroads never have to hold trains or cars until a rested crew is available.  Safety is increased because fatigue is eliminated.  Stress is reduced because employee is working on regular basis, pay is uniform each week, probably home each night.   So what if he works two days on railroad A, two on C, and one on B or whatever combination.  Work rules, pay, union, railroads, employees all agree to whatever has to be agreed to to make it happen...they are man made rules and regulations and not mountains of kryptonite! 

It's nothing I would agree to, why would I want to make less money? This pool thing gonna pay guys 100k a year like some are used to making? You think we are just going let some outsiders come in and change our union contracts and agreements just like that? I think not. We will fight tooth and nail to hang on to what our brothers before us fought so hard for. Unless you can say you have walked in our shoes how can you say what's best for us? 

Who says at this point that scheduled trains like passenger and commuter runs won't be run differently than right now with "owned" bid jobs?  Seniority might be within the PoolCrew Company but probably not af first.  Maybe A crews have to be assigned A jobs only, etc. until death or dismissal.  There are so many things to be thought through and worked out .I think it all could be arrainged for the benefit of the railroads (airlines, trucking companies, etc)  the employees, the unions (guaranteed work for members), railroad customers, and safety experts.  Yes it is outside the employee-employer box.  Yes it is not one employer railroad.  No, I don't think it should be dismissed out of hand because it has never been done.  Running trains from A to Z was never done before 1830.

[zardoz]

henry6

Aside from paying 700 engineers $1600 a week whether the work or not to assure rest periods, guarenteed income, reliefe of stress and abating fatigue, who has another idea?

The problem might lie with the fact that some of those 700 will want to work more often (and make more money), while others will be content to work less often in order to have a higher quality of home life, and yet some others have no home life so they don't care, while others want a balance, etc, etc, etc.

If you find a solution that works for one, it will not work for others.

Perhaps a tiered system, where the workaholics can work as often as possible (since they will have no home life, they should have no problem staying rested, as they will likely get out on their rest every trip). Then there can be a second tier, that is guaranteed "X" number of hours off between trips--they can fill the crews that the hog pool cannot. Then there could be a third pool, like a guaranteed extra board; the few that would be needed here could have a set period (like shifts--0800 to 1600, 1600-0000, 0000-0800) in which they can be called (and would be expected to be rested both technically and realistically); if they do not get called, then they would collect their "guarantee" for that day.

How to choose who would work which board would likely have to be determined locally.

[henry6]

CSSHEGEWISCH

An issue with the pool crew company proposal that has not been addressed is that it, not unreasonably, will be perceived as a union-busting tactic.  The labor issues involved, such as merging seniority rosters, qualification on multiple routes, etc. will have to be addressed.

Agreed, Paul...and I have addressed that several times so far...The PoolCrew Company could be a union shop....existing railroad union contracts, rules, etc., would have to be adhered to or otherwise addressed.  But as Bucyrus points out, if it is a cure for fatigue, the cost is the cost.  Besides, if it is a cure for fatigue, steady paycheck,  standard work week, not having to keep more on the payroll than needed (crews laying over without working, extra boards, furloughed on tap to return, etc.), safer operations and crew safety.  A machine that is in working order makes money...if it is broken or out of service, it is a liablity in some way or another.  The idea, too, here is the The PoolCrew Company would be an agreement amongst all parties...could even be owned by more than one railroad or completely removed from any railroad...but it would have the blessing of railroad companies, unions, employees, and government safety experts.    Aside from paying 700 engineers $1600 a week whether the work or not to assure rest periods, guarenteed income, reliefe of stress and abating fatigue, who has another idea?

 

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

An issue with the pool crew company proposal that has not been addressed is that it, not unreasonably, will be perceived as a union-busting tactic.  The labor issues involved, such as merging seniority rosters, qualification on multiple routes, etc. will have to be addressed.

[Anonymous]

I would not dismiss your pool idea out of hand, especially on the basis of any cost issue.  The whole premise of this outside-the-box pool company is to deal with the extra cost imposed by sleep disorders.  So the cost has to rise.  The only question is whether it is cheaper for the railroad to manage the sleep disorder issue themselves or to farm it out to a specialized company.  There are many cases where businesses find it cheaper to get their labor from an independent contractor. 

 

It may very well be the case that this sleep/rest issue is so complex and challenging that it will be more cost effective to let an independent contractor do it.  And if that is what they decide to do, the pay will be whatever it will be.  Since this whole problem amounts to a new added cost, the money has to come out of somebody’s pocket.  But there will be no comparison between the direct railroad pay and pay through a third party agency because working direct won’t be an option. 

 

I suspect the sleep disorder issue will be accompanied by massive new federal regulations about how to deal with it.  I think that is what the NTSB activism in their Iowa crash report is all about.  So when the dust settles on sleep disorders and its relationship with national healthcare, it may indeed be the straw that breaks the camel’s back and changes the labor force from direct hire to a specialized, medically supervised pool.  If they can impose PTC on the industry, just think what they can do with fatigue management. 

[henry6]

No I don't work for a railroad, airline, trucking company, etc.  But so what. 

As the PoolCrew COmpany I hire you to be an engineer and guarentee you a five day, 40 hour work week, with full benefits.  To the railroad companies I guarentee a reste and non fatigued, qualified, train crew for every job they have.  The employee will never miss a turn or be holed up for days waiting to be called.  The railroads never have to hold trains or cars until a rested crew is available.  Safety is increased because fatigue is eliminated.  Stress is reduced because employee is working on regular basis, pay is uniform each week, probably home each night.   So what if he works two days on railroad A, two on C, and one on B or whatever combination.  Work rules, pay, union, railroads, employees all agree to whatever has to be agreed to to make it happen...they are man made rules and regulations and not mountains of kryptonite!  Who says at this point that scheduled trains like passenger and commuter runs won't be run differently than right now with "owned" bid jobs?  Seniority might be within the PoolCrew Company but probably not af first.  Maybe A crews have to be assigned A jobs only, etc. until death or dismissal.  There are so many things to be thought through and worked out .I think it all could be arrainged for the benefit of the railroads (airlines, trucking companies, etc)  the employees, the unions (guaranteed work for members), railroad customers, and safety experts.  Yes it is outside the employee-employer box.  Yes it is not one employer railroad.  No, I don't think it should be dismissed out of hand because it has never been done.  Running trains from A to Z was never done before 1830.

[Georgia Railroader]

What Ed said.

[edblysard]

Sounds like a good idea...

But like the Space Shuttle, which seemed like a good idea from a expense stand point, after all, a re-usable space craft as opposed to one that has to be built from scratch every times makes more sense, right?

But it turned out the cost of turning the shuttle, and doing all the tear down and maintenance required was three times the cost of NASA staying with the Saturn 5 lift vehicle and a one time around  maybe twice re-usable capsule/cargo vehicle.

You don't take into account the fact that to be profitable, the Pool company would not be able to pay their crews anywhere near what railroads pay us, if they did pay them the same, the cost to the railroad would increase.

An example, say we are paid $30.00 hourly...say 50 crews a day at 8 hours per crew.

400 hours at 30 per hours is $12000.00. per 24 hour day.

Now say the Pool Crew company has a staff payroll and operating expense of 10%,  or $1200.00 per day.

$12000.00-$1200.00 leaves $10800. 00 to divide between your crews,

$10800.00 divided by 400 hours equals $27.00 and hour.

So you pay them only $27.00 per hour.

Why would they work for a Pool Crew company at $27.00 an hour when they can earn $30.00 an hour?

In order for your pool crew company to make money, you would have charge the railroad the $30.00 an hour, plus enough to run your company, in essence pass your operating cost, your salary, your staff salary, insurance and whatever profit margin you work at on to the railroad, which will always make what the railroad pays your pool crew company more expensive than if the railroad simply hired and paid them itself.

In essence, you're talking about a temp agency for railroad crews, and I know of no temp agency that pays anywhere near the going salary for any job.

Add in your cost or part of the employee insurance your company pays not only for the crews but your staff, and the difference becomes even greater.

And, as Zug pointed out, you would still be faced with the same fatigue issues the railroads face now, and in order to overcome that issue, you would have to hire at least 10% to 20% more crews than the railroad hires itself, which would further increase the cost you pass on...

I applaud you for thinking beyond the normal concept of railroad employment, but in reality, railroads have faced the issue of more work than available crews for over a century, and statistically speaking, riding a train is still the safest mode of transportation per million miles traveled than any other...

There is a term in the industry, crew start cost, which on most Class 1 roads is about $1500.00 per 3 man crew, this is what ti cost to put a 3 man crew on a locomotive(s) and be ready to perform service.

It includes cost or rent of the locomotive(s), cost %of the track including maintenance, fuel, insurance, dispatching, support staff, (TM salaries, management cost, crew salaries, insurance and arbitraries, railroad supplied safety devices, gloves, lanterns and batteries, just about all the things you could imagine)...and I doubt a private firm could match that for a 3 man trained crew.

Not being negative for the sake of it, but simply pointing out the down side that may not have been considered, and besides, this idea of something like a crew for hire or a temp agency has been approached before, and it faced the same basic obstacle, that being that railroads can hire, train and pay crews better than an outside source simply because they can make the economies of scale work in their behalf, where a private company has nowhere to spread the cost to, except to pass it on to their customer, the railroad.

[Georgia Railroader]

henry6

 

Georgia Railroader:

 

 

henry6:

This seems like as good a thread as any to throw this out  to.  Some entrpenureal genius I hope will take this idea up and study it to see where it might lead.  Instead of the railroads maintiaing rosters, employing crews, there be labor pool company instead.  This company would employ engineers and conductors and then contract with the railroads to provice their services.  This company would not be tied to just one railroad but to many or all.  They would provide properly rested and qualified engineers and conductors (airline pilots, plumbers, truck drivers, what have you) to the proper place at the proper time.  This company would be the employer of the job catagory(ies) and pay and benefit them; the company would be paid by the railroads (airlines, pipelines, plumbers, trucking, bus companies).  The hours of service, proper rest, drug testing, everything, would rest on the shoulders of this new company.  In theory they would compensate the employees in a manner so that there would be on problems missing a day or call and would be able to provide the proper employee at the proper place at the proper time....it may mean employees would be slaried, the union would probably approve, Labor Department would have to agree (why not?).  If the company would have large enough crew bases in major areas with the idea of servicing more than one railroad...thus a crew could be out on ARR one day, BRR the next, all assignement could be covered on all railroads with enough crews so that fatigue, sleep, away from home time, etc, would not be the major problem that it is today.  AIrlines and their pilots could gain some of the same benefits with a similar service.   Railroads, airlines, etc. could still employ people for set job assignements and use the Pool Company for fill in or rely totally on the Pool Company.  There is a lot of things to think about, iron out, work out.  It is not a simple "no" because anythng is possible when it is needed.  A simple "yes" because there are complications and contradictions, and cross purposes, etc. to be dealt with.  But I bet it could be done for the success and benefit of fatigue plagued insdustries.and services.

 

 

 

Doesn't sound like it would solve anything to begin with. Second, where does the labor come from? Does this 3rd party company have it's own people? If so, that wouldn't go over well with those of us who have established our seniority. Sounds like an extraboard to me. 

 

 

 

Georgia Railroader:

 

 

henry6:

This seems like as good a thread as any to throw this out  to.  Some entrpenureal genius I hope will take this idea up and study it to see where it might lead.  Instead of the railroads maintiaing rosters, employing crews, there be labor pool company instead.  This company would employ engineers and conductors and then contract with the railroads to provice their services.  This company would not be tied to just one railroad but to many or all.  They would provide properly rested and qualified engineers and conductors (airline pilots, plumbers, truck drivers, what have you) to the proper place at the proper time.  This company would be the employer of the job catagory(ies) and pay and benefit them; the company would be paid by the railroads (airlines, pipelines, plumbers, trucking, bus companies).  The hours of service, proper rest, drug testing, everything, would rest on the shoulders of this new company.  In theory they would compensate the employees in a manner so that there would be on problems missing a day or call and would be able to provide the proper employee at the proper place at the proper time....it may mean employees would be slaried, the union would probably approve, Labor Department would have to agree (why not?).  If the company would have large enough crew bases in major areas with the idea of servicing more than one railroad...thus a crew could be out on ARR one day, BRR the next, all assignement could be covered on all railroads with enough crews so that fatigue, sleep, away from home time, etc, would not be the major problem that it is today.  AIrlines and their pilots could gain some of the same benefits with a similar service.   Railroads, airlines, etc. could still employ people for set job assignements and use the Pool Company for fill in or rely totally on the Pool Company.  There is a lot of things to think about, iron out, work out.  It is not a simple "no" because anythng is possible when it is needed.  A simple "yes" because there are complications and contradictions, and cross purposes, etc. to be dealt with.  But I bet it could be done for the success and benefit of fatigue plagued insdustries.and services.

 

 

 

Doesn't sound like it would solve anything to begin with. Second, where does the labor come from? Does this 3rd party company have it's own people? If so, that wouldn't go over well with those of us who have established our seniority. Sounds like an extraboard to me. 

 

 

Why did I know there would be no postive feedback on this.  All who have repsonded have done so in the negative!  Not surprised.  It is outside the box of employer-employee.

So lets look at it this way.  A RR has 600 engineers on its payroll, B RR has maybe 200,  C RR perhaps 20 or less.  None of the railroads need all their engineers all the time....indeterminate traffic schedules, work rules rest and away from home layovers; there are all kinds of problems.  So out of the 820 we have counted maybe only 400 are on the road at any one time.  What if the PoolCRew Company had as few as 700 engineers, licensed and qualified.  With proper coordination and planning the Company could provide fully and properly rested crews at any starting terminal at any time of the day or night, seven days a week.   The Pool company is the caller for each client railroad, manages the rest and work periods, qualifying, insurances, and pays the crews.  Union rules, wages, operating rules, qualifying, etc. are minor points that can be worked out so that this can be viable.  I am simplistic here, but if it is really viable all problems can be addressed and the concept made workable.

I'm just expressing my opinion on something I deal with everyday. How often do you deal with it? You work for the RR long, at all? Dont get bent out of shape because guys that have done this a long time find holes in this idea. All I wanted to know is where do you supply all these crews from, some third party? If so then nobody will be for having someone who has no seniority coming on their  district and taking their work. Make sense?

Union wages, rules, ect are minor points? Not really.  

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

Truly, the 24 hour/ 365 demand is irregular.  But there are still reality-based upper limits on how many trains can be pushed over a particular route/ line of road in each direction every 8 or 24 hrs., depending on its configuration and opposing traffic, etc.  More than that, and some trains start getting stashed away in sidings. 

Once that's happened and those trains are there, they then don't need crews to sit on them and wait for hours on end until they "die on the law" for a slot to open up, meanwhile accomplishing nothing productive.  Better to redeploy those crews out on the moving trains instead. 

Thus, an upper limit on the number of crews needed in each pool or on each board could be estimated and provided, to keep things fluid and the start times more predictable within a certain range.  Of course, when traffic eases up, some will be without work, depending on how that 'pain' is then shared or spread out among them (by seniority or pro-rata, etc.). 

Which is one reason why the current system results in a comparatively high rate of pay, sometimes known as "misery pay" (like "combat pay").

- Paul North.          

[BaltACD]

henry6

There would have to be groups of centralized  crew lists.  Not all crews would be qualified on all railroads everywhere just those withing a reasonalbe commuting distance, say one or two hours, in any given direction.   This is all just thinking outloud on the keyboard...there's lots to think about and work out.  But nobody else anywhere else that I know of has come up with anything except inside the box employee/employer scenerio. 

The box is 12 Hours of Service vs 24 hour/365 day irregular demand.  Getting out of that box demands suspending reality.  Last I looked - reality was not suspendable.

[henry6]

There would have to be groups of centralized  crew lists.  Not all crews would be qualified on all railroads everywhere just those withing a reasonalbe commuting distance, say one or two hours, in any given direction.   This is all just thinking outloud on the keyboard...there's lots to think about and work out.  But nobody else anywhere else that I know of has come up with anything except inside the box employee/employer scenerio. 

[zardoz]

henry6

Here's what the PoolCrew Company can offer:  to the employee, a guaranteed week and guaranteed week's pay with or without overtime, guranteed proper rest without losing turn, guaranteed being home everynight if wanted.  Railroad gets relieved of having to have too many or not enough ready crews, PoolCrew is there.  Overall it should relieve if not eliminate the fatigue problem thus more productive work time for the employee for his paycheck and the railroad's bottom line.  Union contract could be with the PoolCrew Company instead of the railroad.  The whole concept has a lot going for it if someone who is into it, understands it, wants to go after it.  It could also work for truck drivers, airline pilots, virtually any 24/7 business 

Sounds good "on paper". And perhaps it could be made to work, although there would be difficulties (see my earlier post about getting everyone qualified); plus making sure everyone runs each piece of territory often enough to stay qualified, would be a difficut logistics problem. And doesn't your solution just beg the question? Wouldn't these "pool crews" be subject to the same irregular calling with the associated problems of knowing when to sleep?

Henry6, It's not that we all want to rain on your parade, it's just that those of us that have dealt with these hours for so many years might possibly have a better understanding of "crew management" works.

[henry6]

Here's what the PoolCrew Company can offer:  to the employee, a guaranteed week and guaranteed week's pay with or without overtime, guranteed proper rest without losing turn, guaranteed being home everynight if wanted.  Railroad gets relieved of having to have too many or not enough ready crews, PoolCrew is there.  Overall it should relieve if not eliminate the fatigue problem thus more productive work time for the employee for his paycheck and the railroad's bottom line.  Union contract could be with the PoolCrew Company instead of the railroad.  The whole concept has a lot going for it if someone who is into it, understands it, wants to go after it.  It could also work for truck drivers, airline pilots, virtually any 24/7 business 

[schlimm]

Sleep apnea is only one sleep disorder.  Many folks in work where shifts change  or schedules are unpredictable suffer from Shift Work Sleep Disorder.  See link I posted earlier.

[samfp1943]

edblysard wrote the following post on Thursday, May 03, 2012

[snip]"...When I was working our extra board, I made several runs with an engineer who could sleep while running, and who kept his hand right over the alerter button, the instant it began, he would press it, canceling the alert, somewhat like a person who presses the snooze button on their alarm clock repeatedly.

My guess, and this is only a guess based on my personal experience, is that this crew was running the same way, the conductor may have fallen asleep, possible into a deep sleep, and the engineer was catching  a nap also, just above the point where REM sleep or deep sleep happens, canceling the alerter every time it came on.

The event recorder keeps track of when the alerter goes off, how soon it is canceled and what was done to cancel it, be it the cancel button was pushed or a control surface was moved, all signs the engineer was awake and functioning..."[snip]

If the recorder shows the alerter immediately being canceled the moment it comes on, and this is constant over an extended period of time, this would raise suspicions, as the response time should be varied by a few seconds if the engineer was awake and busy.

While not conclusive proof that anyone was asleep, having the event recorder showing the same exact pattern for canceling the alerter, coupled with a constant speed on the train would indicate the crew had fallen into a pattern that would promote sleep..."

     Just a suggestion, I don't think that I would get too hung up on the "Alerter" function. After all it is a piece of equipment and has potential to be subverted when present and functioning. As Ed suggested, the immediate disarming of it on a more than one or two occasions would tend to point to its being neutralized by the person in operational control.

   I mentioned in an earlier post about the potential for fatigue induced Micro Naps to be present in the personnel of a locomotive crew as well as in the cab of a truck. Fatigued individuals can at some point be not completely in control of their own bodies. Autonomic responses can be controlled by the survival mechanism present in each human's brain.  The Micro Nap being a function of the brain's efforts to protect itself when extreme of sleep deprivation are present.  lack of sleep in anyone exacerbated by the need to make a living, extends to pushing oneself to the edge of fatigue and beyond is a fact of life.

   Just consider: Had that train crew been fully alert and on their '"game" would have ever considered running into the back of the other train, short of an act of suicide? Surely NOT. They would have done everything to avoid that crash. Fatigued and napping, he had no idea of the eminent danger and potentially deadly crash. Micro Nap? Just speculation.  Does the trucker who runs into another vehicle do it on purpose...Same rationale. Not likely if awake and focused, but fatigued to the point that his bran shuts down his senses in a Micro Nap..Good possibility.

 The individuals health is another area of concern.  Sleep Apnea, is undiagnosed in many individuals. here is a link that explains Sleep Apnea :

http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/health-topics/topics/sleepapnea/

  Being overweight is a potential marker for the condition. But of course it is also a marker in any number of health concerns as well.

     My own gut feeling is that there are also a number of fatigue inducing conditions in the Transportation field.  Irregular Dispatching of Drivers ( leading to tight or impossible expectations of performance of the job duties). The individual who may try to squeeze out ever possible moment for personal time before leaving to do the job. Not to mention digng in ones grip for something and have attention diverted from what is going on around them. You cannot believe the number of accidents that happen due to diverted attention. Reaching for Smokes, is a biggie. Cell Phones are another, a conversation between individuals riding with the Engineer create a distraction (ie: missed signal,).

 

 

[henry6]

Georgia Railroader

henry6:

This seems like as good a thread as any to throw this out  to.  Some entrpenureal genius I hope will take this idea up and study it to see where it might lead.  Instead of the railroads maintiaing rosters, employing crews, there be labor pool company instead.  This company would employ engineers and conductors and then contract with the railroads to provice their services.  This company would not be tied to just one railroad but to many or all.  They would provide properly rested and qualified engineers and conductors (airline pilots, plumbers, truck drivers, what have you) to the proper place at the proper time.  This company would be the employer of the job catagory(ies) and pay and benefit them; the company would be paid by the railroads (airlines, pipelines, plumbers, trucking, bus companies).  The hours of service, proper rest, drug testing, everything, would rest on the shoulders of this new company.  In theory they would compensate the employees in a manner so that there would be on problems missing a day or call and would be able to provide the proper employee at the proper place at the proper time....it may mean employees would be slaried, the union would probably approve, Labor Department would have to agree (why not?).  If the company would have large enough crew bases in major areas with the idea of servicing more than one railroad...thus a crew could be out on ARR one day, BRR the next, all assignement could be covered on all railroads with enough crews so that fatigue, sleep, away from home time, etc, would not be the major problem that it is today.  AIrlines and their pilots could gain some of the same benefits with a similar service.   Railroads, airlines, etc. could still employ people for set job assignements and use the Pool Company for fill in or rely totally on the Pool Company.  There is a lot of things to think about, iron out, work out.  It is not a simple "no" because anythng is possible when it is needed.  A simple "yes" because there are complications and contradictions, and cross purposes, etc. to be dealt with.  But I bet it could be done for the success and benefit of fatigue plagued insdustries.and services.

 

 

Doesn't sound like it would solve anything to begin with. Second, where does the labor come from? Does this 3rd party company have it's own people? If so, that wouldn't go over well with those of us who have established our seniority. Sounds like an extraboard to me. 

Georgia Railroader

henry6:

This seems like as good a thread as any to throw this out  to.  Some entrpenureal genius I hope will take this idea up and study it to see where it might lead.  Instead of the railroads maintiaing rosters, employing crews, there be labor pool company instead.  This company would employ engineers and conductors and then contract with the railroads to provice their services.  This company would not be tied to just one railroad but to many or all.  They would provide properly rested and qualified engineers and conductors (airline pilots, plumbers, truck drivers, what have you) to the proper place at the proper time.  This company would be the employer of the job catagory(ies) and pay and benefit them; the company would be paid by the railroads (airlines, pipelines, plumbers, trucking, bus companies).  The hours of service, proper rest, drug testing, everything, would rest on the shoulders of this new company.  In theory they would compensate the employees in a manner so that there would be on problems missing a day or call and would be able to provide the proper employee at the proper place at the proper time....it may mean employees would be slaried, the union would probably approve, Labor Department would have to agree (why not?).  If the company would have large enough crew bases in major areas with the idea of servicing more than one railroad...thus a crew could be out on ARR one day, BRR the next, all assignement could be covered on all railroads with enough crews so that fatigue, sleep, away from home time, etc, would not be the major problem that it is today.  AIrlines and their pilots could gain some of the same benefits with a similar service.   Railroads, airlines, etc. could still employ people for set job assignements and use the Pool Company for fill in or rely totally on the Pool Company.  There is a lot of things to think about, iron out, work out.  It is not a simple "no" because anythng is possible when it is needed.  A simple "yes" because there are complications and contradictions, and cross purposes, etc. to be dealt with.  But I bet it could be done for the success and benefit of fatigue plagued insdustries.and services.

 

 

Doesn't sound like it would solve anything to begin with. Second, where does the labor come from? Does this 3rd party company have it's own people? If so, that wouldn't go over well with those of us who have established our seniority. Sounds like an extraboard to me. 

Why did I know there would be no postive feedback on this.  All who have repsonded have done so in the negative!  Not surprised.  It is outside the box of employer-employee.

So lets look at it this way.  A RR has 600 engineers on its payroll, B RR has maybe 200,  C RR perhaps 20 or less.  None of the railroads need all their engineers all the time....indeterminate traffic schedules, work rules rest and away from home layovers; there are all kinds of problems.  So out of the 820 we have counted maybe only 400 are on the road at any one time.  What if the PoolCRew Company had as few as 700 engineers, licensed and qualified.  With proper coordination and planning the Company could provide fully and properly rested crews at any starting terminal at any time of the day or night, seven days a week.   The Pool company is the caller for each client railroad, manages the rest and work periods, qualifying, insurances, and pays the crews.  Union rules, wages, operating rules, qualifying, etc. are minor points that can be worked out so that this can be viable.  I am simplistic here, but if it is really viable all problems can be addressed and the concept made workable.

[henry6]

Georgia Railroader

henry6:

This seems like as good a thread as any to throw this out  to.  Some entrpenureal genius I hope will take this idea up and study it to see where it might lead.  Instead of the railroads maintiaing rosters, employing crews, there be labor pool company instead.  This company would employ engineers and conductors and then contract with the railroads to provice their services.  This company would not be tied to just one railroad but to many or all.  They would provide properly rested and qualified engineers and conductors (airline pilots, plumbers, truck drivers, what have you) to the proper place at the proper time.  This company would be the employer of the job catagory(ies) and pay and benefit them; the company would be paid by the railroads (airlines, pipelines, plumbers, trucking, bus companies).  The hours of service, proper rest, drug testing, everything, would rest on the shoulders of this new company.  In theory they would compensate the employees in a manner so that there would be on problems missing a day or call and would be able to provide the proper employee at the proper place at the proper time....it may mean employees would be slaried, the union would probably approve, Labor Department would have to agree (why not?).  If the company would have large enough crew bases in major areas with the idea of servicing more than one railroad...thus a crew could be out on ARR one day, BRR the next, all assignement could be covered on all railroads with enough crews so that fatigue, sleep, away from home time, etc, would not be the major problem that it is today.  AIrlines and their pilots could gain some of the same benefits with a similar service.   Railroads, airlines, etc. could still employ people for set job assignements and use the Pool Company for fill in or rely totally on the Pool Company.  There is a lot of things to think about, iron out, work out.  It is not a simple "no" because anythng is possible when it is needed.  A simple "yes" because there are complications and contradictions, and cross purposes, etc. to be dealt with.  But I bet it could be done for the success and benefit of fatigue plagued insdustries.and services.

 

 

Doesn't sound like it would solve anything to begin with. Second, where does the labor come from? Does this 3rd party company have it's own people? If so, that wouldn't go over well with those of us who have established our seniority. Sounds like an extraboard to me. 

Georgia Railroader

henry6:

This seems like as good a thread as any to throw this out  to.  Some entrpenureal genius I hope will take this idea up and study it to see where it might lead.  Instead of the railroads maintiaing rosters, employing crews, there be labor pool company instead.  This company would employ engineers and conductors and then contract with the railroads to provice their services.  This company would not be tied to just one railroad but to many or all.  They would provide properly rested and qualified engineers and conductors (airline pilots, plumbers, truck drivers, what have you) to the proper place at the proper time.  This company would be the employer of the job catagory(ies) and pay and benefit them; the company would be paid by the railroads (airlines, pipelines, plumbers, trucking, bus companies).  The hours of service, proper rest, drug testing, everything, would rest on the shoulders of this new company.  In theory they would compensate the employees in a manner so that there would be on problems missing a day or call and would be able to provide the proper employee at the proper place at the proper time....it may mean employees would be slaried, the union would probably approve, Labor Department would have to agree (why not?).  If the company would have large enough crew bases in major areas with the idea of servicing more than one railroad...thus a crew could be out on ARR one day, BRR the next, all assignement could be covered on all railroads with enough crews so that fatigue, sleep, away from home time, etc, would not be the major problem that it is today.  AIrlines and their pilots could gain some of the same benefits with a similar service.   Railroads, airlines, etc. could still employ people for set job assignements and use the Pool Company for fill in or rely totally on the Pool Company.  There is a lot of things to think about, iron out, work out.  It is not a simple "no" because anythng is possible when it is needed.  A simple "yes" because there are complications and contradictions, and cross purposes, etc. to be dealt with.  But I bet it could be done for the success and benefit of fatigue plagued insdustries.and services.

 

 

Doesn't sound like it would solve anything to begin with. Second, where does the labor come from? Does this 3rd party company have it's own people? If so, that wouldn't go over well with those of us who have established our seniority. Sounds like an extraboard to me. 

Why did I know there would be no postive feedback on this.  All who have repsonded have done so in the negative!  Not surprised.  It is outside the box of employer-employee.

So lets look at it this way.  A RR has 600 engineers on its payroll, B RR has maybe 200,  C RR perhaps 20 or less.  None of the railroads need all their engineers all the time....indeterminate traffic schedules, work rules rest and away from home layovers; there are all kinds of problems.  So out of the 820 we have counted maybe only 400 are on the road at any one time.  What if the PoolCRew Company had as few as 700 engineers, licensed and qualified.  With proper coordination and planning the Company could provide fully and properly rested crews at any starting terminal at any time of the day or night, seven days a week.   The Pool company is the caller for each client railroad, manages the rest and work periods, qualifying, insurances, and pays the crews.  Union rules, wages, operating rules, qualifying, etc. are minor points that can be worked out so that this can be viable.  I am simplistic here, but if it is really viable all problems can be addressed and the concept made workable.

[Anonymous]

schlimm

Bucyrus:

According to the NTSB report, working irregular schedules causes sleep disorders including the inability to stay awake at times.  It this settled science?  Or is it agenda-driven junk science? 

http://my.clevelandclinic.org/disorders/Sleep_Disorders/hic_Shift_Work_Sleep_Disorder.aspx

If you read this short link from the Cleveland Clinic, a highly-rated medical center, I think you will discover that Shift Work Sleep Disorder is an accepted diagnosis.  It relates to disruptions in the normal Circadian rhythm.   Your all-or-nothing reasoning to a conclusion about what should be done in consequence is a nice example of a fallacious form of the argument known as reductio ad absurdum. Read the clinic's guidelines for decreasing the effects of SWSD.

The reductio absurdum is only to highlight the profound significance of sleep disorder theories on irregular shift work.  I realize that there are shades of gray where some different people will react differently, but the shades of gray can obscure the one earth-shattering conclusion.  That is, when you clear away all of the shades of gray, you have the following possibility affecting everyone unless proven otherwise:

 

People working irregular shifts, even when fully rested each day, are subject to unanticipated sudden fatigue sufficient to force the abrupt onset of sleep even while performing tasks so dangerous that falling asleep would be life threatening to themselves or others. 

 

The NTSB does not seem to have much problem with shades of gray when they come right out and declare that the Iowa crash was caused by the crew working irregular shifts.

 

But then they do temper their advice on diagnosing sleep disorders with this cautionary note:

 

“Because biomathematical models of fatigue are relatively new to the railroad industry, the use of this technology should be evaluated for its effectiveness within the context of railroads' fatigue management plans through independent scientific peer review.”

[zugmann]

Bucyrus

According to the NTSB report, working irregular schedules causes sleep disorders including the inability to stay awake at times.  It this settled science?  Or is it agenda-driven junk science? 

 

If it is settled science, it poses a very large problem for the railroad industry.  Many railroaders work irregular schedules.  How can it be acceptable that they are working at tasks where a loss of attention can prove fatal, and yet, they are subject to involuntarily falling asleep at any time?

 

If what the NTSB says about irregular schedules causing sleep disorders is true, then one of two things must be done:

 

1)      Eliminate irregular work schedules.

2)      Test all employees working irregular schedules for sleep   disorders, and remove from service any employees found to be afflicted.  

 

Anyone that works an irregular schedule can attest that it is not "junk science".  Just curious if you ever had the pleasure, Bucyrus?    With the railroads you get the double-whammy.  You get irregular schedules, and UNPREDICTABLE schedules if you are a flea on the extra list. So you don't know whether you are going to go to work in 10 hours or 30.  Try getting proper rest under those circumstances. 

 

As for your suggestions:  (1.) will probably never be 100% achievable due to the nature of the beast.  There are ways to make the job more scheduled, but it would probably require new contract rules regarding territory covered and whatnot.  

 

And (2.): I know if my railroad suspects someone has a medical sleep issue, they are pulled out of service immediately and won't be allowed to re-enter service without their doctor's and the company medical dep't's permission.

[Georgia Railroader]

henry6

This seems like as good a thread as any to throw this out  to.  Some entrpenureal genius I hope will take this idea up and study it to see where it might lead.  Instead of the railroads maintiaing rosters, employing crews, there be labor pool company instead.  This company would employ engineers and conductors and then contract with the railroads to provice their services.  This company would not be tied to just one railroad but to many or all.  They would provide properly rested and qualified engineers and conductors (airline pilots, plumbers, truck drivers, what have you) to the proper place at the proper time.  This company would be the employer of the job catagory(ies) and pay and benefit them; the company would be paid by the railroads (airlines, pipelines, plumbers, trucking, bus companies).  The hours of service, proper rest, drug testing, everything, would rest on the shoulders of this new company.  In theory they would compensate the employees in a manner so that there would be on problems missing a day or call and would be able to provide the proper employee at the proper place at the proper time....it may mean employees would be slaried, the union would probably approve, Labor Department would have to agree (why not?).  If the company would have large enough crew bases in major areas with the idea of servicing more than one railroad...thus a crew could be out on ARR one day, BRR the next, all assignement could be covered on all railroads with enough crews so that fatigue, sleep, away from home time, etc, would not be the major problem that it is today.  AIrlines and their pilots could gain some of the same benefits with a similar service.   Railroads, airlines, etc. could still employ people for set job assignements and use the Pool Company for fill in or rely totally on the Pool Company.  There is a lot of things to think about, iron out, work out.  It is not a simple "no" because anythng is possible when it is needed.  A simple "yes" because there are complications and contradictions, and cross purposes, etc. to be dealt with.  But I bet it could be done for the success and benefit of fatigue plagued insdustries.and services.

 

Doesn't sound like it would solve anything to begin with. Second, where does the labor come from? Does this 3rd party company have it's own people? If so, that wouldn't go over well with those of us who have established our seniority. Sounds like an extraboard to me. 

[BroadwayLion]

When I was working nights, I stayed on nights even on my nights off. But then I was not running a locomotive. It was far more difficult to work moving shifts, but that is what most railroaders do.

Do we simply stop the trains at night? Some transit systems do just that.

Me thinks more people need to be hired, and then assigned to a shift, and cannot be called for a train that starts outside of that shift.

ROAR

[schlimm]

Bucyrus

According to the NTSB report, working irregular schedules causes sleep disorders including the inability to stay awake at times.  It this settled science?  Or is it agenda-driven junk science? 

http://my.clevelandclinic.org/disorders/Sleep_Disorders/hic_Shift_Work_Sleep_Disorder.aspx

If you read this short link from the Cleveland Clinic, a highly-rated medical center, I think you will discover that Shift Work Sleep Disorder is an accepted diagnosis.  It relates to disruptions in the normal Circadian rhythm.   Your all-or-nothing reasoning to a conclusion about what should be done in consequence is a nice example of a fallacious form of the argument known as reductio ad absurdum. Read the clinic's guidelines for decreasing the effects of SWSD.

[zardoz]

edblysard

When I was working our extra board, I made several runs with an engineer who could sleep while running, and who kept his hand right over the alerter button, the instant it began, he would press it, canceling the alert, somewhat like a person who presses the snooze button on their alarm clock repeatedly.

You may think this heresy, but the few times I had a locomotive with an alerter, if I was extremely tired I did that very tactic. You couldn't trust the conductor to help you stay awake (except from his snoring). And taking a short alerter-ending naps is less dangerous that falling in to a deep sleep while at the controls (have done that also).  Plus, if one really knows the territory, using the alerter as a snooze alarm isn't as dangerous as it sounds, except for the danger of getting into the pattern of hitting the alerter too many times when still fairly asleep (who of us hasn't woke up to our alarm, surprised that it was already on the second, third, or fourth or more reset?).

Of course, doing any of the above is extremely dangerous. But sometimes one has to make do with the best option available. And sometimes the price is paid. In full.

[Anonymous]

According to the NTSB report, working irregular schedules causes sleep disorders including the inability to stay awake at times.  It this settled science?  Or is it agenda-driven junk science? 

 

If it is settled science, it poses a very large problem for the railroad industry.  Many railroaders work irregular schedules.  How can it be acceptable that they are working at tasks where a loss of attention can prove fatal, and yet, they are subject to involuntarily falling asleep at any time?

 

If what the NTSB says about irregular schedules causing sleep disorders is true, then one of two things must be done:

 

1)      Eliminate irregular work schedules.

2)      Test all employees working irregular schedules for sleep   disorders, and remove from service any employees found to be afflicted.  

[zardoz]

Bucyrus

What could the pool company do to prevent sleep disorders that the railroads could not do for their own employees?

Not to mention the difficulty of getting everybody qualified on every participating railroad.

At least the different scenery might keep some awake--at least for a while.

[edblysard]

This was a GE Dash 9 locomotive, and it comes standard with an alerter, part of the engine management computer program.

They go off every 90 seconds if I remember correctly, unless a control surface, like the throttle or the brake handle is moved, which resets the alerter.

Sounding the horn or ringing the bell will also rest the alerter.

The alerter is loud shrill sharp chirping sound, and once it starts, if it is not canceled it becomes progressively louder, after 30 seconds it is so loud as to become painful, at that point the locomotive computer programming will begin to reduce the throttle, and perform a brake pipe reduction, progressively slowing the train and bringing it to a stop.

It is possible to bypass the alerter, but if you are caught running a locomotive with a by passed alerter, it results in immediate termination.

That's a federal law, not open to debate on the employees or the carriers side.

 

When I was working our extra board, I made several runs with an engineer who could sleep while running, and who kept his hand right over the alerter button, the instant it began, he would press it, canceling the alert, somewhat like a person who presses the snooze button on their alarm clock repeatedly.

My guess, and this is only a guess based on my personal experience, is that this crew was running the same way, the conductor may have fallen asleep, possible into a deep sleep, and the engineer was catching  a nap also, just above the point where REM sleep or deep sleep happens, canceling the alerter every time it came on.

The event recorder keeps track of when the alerter goes off, how soon it is canceled and what was done to cancel it, be it the cancel button was pushed or a control surface was moved, all signs the engineer was awake and functioning.

If the recorder shows the alerter immediately being canceled the moment it comes on, and this is constant over an extended period of time, this would raise suspicions, as the response time should be varied by a few seconds if the engineer was awake and busy.

While not conclusive proof that anyone was asleep, having the event recorder showing the same exact pattern for canceling the alerter, coupled with a constant speed on the train would indicate the crew had fallen into a pattern that would promote sleep.

Bucyrus

The NTSB report mentions that locomotive alerters should not be used as a substitute for a fatigue mitigation program.  Was there a locomotive alerter in operation during this Iowa collision?  Isn’t the point of an alerter to prevent crewmembers from falling asleep?  How could the crew have fallen asleep if there was an operating alerter?     

[Anonymous]

What could the pool company do to prevent sleep disorders that the railroads could not do for their own employees?

[henry6]

This seems like as good a thread as any to throw this out  to.  Some entrpenureal genius I hope will take this idea up and study it to see where it might lead.  Instead of the railroads maintiaing rosters, employing crews, there be labor pool company instead.  This company would employ engineers and conductors and then contract with the railroads to provice their services.  This company would not be tied to just one railroad but to many or all.  They would provide properly rested and qualified engineers and conductors (airline pilots, plumbers, truck drivers, what have you) to the proper place at the proper time.  This company would be the employer of the job catagory(ies) and pay and benefit them; the company would be paid by the railroads (airlines, pipelines, plumbers, trucking, bus companies).  The hours of service, proper rest, drug testing, everything, would rest on the shoulders of this new company.  In theory they would compensate the employees in a manner so that there would be on problems missing a day or call and would be able to provide the proper employee at the proper place at the proper time....it may mean employees would be slaried, the union would probably approve, Labor Department would have to agree (why not?).  If the company would have large enough crew bases in major areas with the idea of servicing more than one railroad...thus a crew could be out on ARR one day, BRR the next, all assignement could be covered on all railroads with enough crews so that fatigue, sleep, away from home time, etc, would not be the major problem that it is today.  AIrlines and their pilots could gain some of the same benefits with a similar service.   Railroads, airlines, etc. could still employ people for set job assignements and use the Pool Company for fill in or rely totally on the Pool Company.  There is a lot of things to think about, iron out, work out.  It is not a simple "no" because anythng is possible when it is needed.  A simple "yes" because there are complications and contradictions, and cross purposes, etc. to be dealt with.  But I bet it could be done for the success and benefit of fatigue plagued insdustries.and services.

 

[Georgia Railroader]

Bucyrus

The NTSB report mentions that locomotive alerters should not be used as a substitute for a fatigue mitigation program.  Was there a locomotive alerter in operation during this Iowa collision?  Isn’t the point of an alerter to prevent crewmembers from falling asleep?  How could the crew have fallen asleep if there was an operating alerter?     

Most likely the locomotive was equipped with an alerter. Let me tell you, I dont care what kind of alert system you have and how loud it it, when you are dead tired nothing seems to work. It only takes a second for things to happen, now you throw in fatigue and this is what can happen. 

[Anonymous]

The NTSB report mentions that locomotive alerters should not be used as a substitute for a fatigue mitigation program.  Was there a locomotive alerter in operation during this Iowa collision?  Isn’t the point of an alerter to prevent crewmembers from falling asleep?  How could the crew have fallen asleep if there was an operating alerter?     

[edblysard]

Paul,

That's part of the problem, there is no objective legally  defined amount...its totally a subjective call on the carriers part, and often left up to the TM, who may base his remove from service decision on personal issues, likes and dislikes, so forth and so on.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

Ed, thanks once again for a thoughtful essay, and that link.

Rhetorical question, for consideration, deliberation, and discussion: What does the correlation, cause-and-effect linkage, or 'confidence level' between a condition (sleep disorder, high blood pressure and cholesterol levels, etc.) on the one hand, and the likelihood or pre-disposition for a performance failure (falling asleep while on duty, heart attack or stroke, etc.) on the other hand, have to be for a particular individual employee to be deemed to be "at risk", or for the symptom to be deemed a "sufficiently reliable" indicator/ predictor of the performance failure for many employees, such that the correlation justifies removing the employee from service (and income) and subjecting him/ her to the testing, etc. ?  10 % of the time ?  30 % ? 50 % ?  80 %  95 % ? 100 % ?   And what other variables can - and do - affect a particular instance of performance within that range ? (e.g., coffee ?)   

I don't have any pat or simple answers.  MY gut tells me that 10 % is too little, but by 30 to 50 % it's enough of a problem or risk to justify taking some action, and for sure by the 80 % range.   

- Paul North. 

[edbenton]

Right now the Big one in OTR is BMI if it is to high bang Automatic Sleep Study required to keep your CDL per the Regulations.  However they are finding out that BMI is NOT the Catch all that they thought it was.  Fully 40% of the people with CDL's with issues are thinner than rails.  They have found out that Sleep Apnea is caused by a reaxation of muscues in the throat and when that happens your in trouble. 

[edblysard]

http://www.fra.dot.gov/downloads/safety/sa200404.pdf

Most railroads have it in their safety rules that any employee who develops a medical issue as defined must report it to the carrier.

BaltACD

Since this thread is based on Safety Recommendation R-02-24, -25, and –26; what are they? 

[edblysard]

Federal law requires random drug testing of T&E employees, and the testing company has to have a Federal License to perform such test.

The results are reported to the FRA and the carrier, in that order, any employee found to have a drug or alcohol problem is removed from service.

Carriers have no choice in that matter, is a the law,

Depending on whether this is a first time offender or not, they will be offered counseling and rehabilitation , part of the National Labor Contract, but you only get one shot at it, then you are truly fired, if you are an engineer, your Federal Engineers License is revoked, if you're a conductor or brakeman, your conductors certificate is revoked.

The FRA monitors how many and how often a carrier, be it a Class 1, 2 or 3 perform random testing, and will fine carriers who do not follow the law,

Any FRA reportable accident/incident requires a drug and alcohol test.

In 15 years, I have had over 20 random tests.

This is one of those things carriers are not going to shirk...

As for a disorder like sleep apnea, your physician is required to report it to the FRA, similar to doctors having to report gunshot wounds.

Most carriers will not test a T&E employee for a sleep disorder unless there is sufficient concern, in that the employee has been disciplined several times for sleeping on the job.

If, and only if a doctor reports to the carrier and the FRA that an employee is being successfully treated for such a disorder, will that employee be allowed to continue in T&E service.

If the disorder was something you had before you became employed, you will be terminated, (it is one of the standard questions on all railroads employment application forms) because you were untruthful on the application.

This limits the carrier's liability/risk.

If your doctor reports the condition developed during your employment and con not be successfully treated, then the contract has provisions for the employee to be retrained in a clerical or office help/ non T&E position.

This is to keep the employee from suing the railroad for firing them because they became ill while employed by the carrier.

In every instance where I have been tested, the tester was professional, well trained, and ensured the chain of evidence protocol was properly followed.

While I cannot speak for other carriers, I can state that my carrier has never tried to duck this requirement, never tried to "hide" an employee they felt was impaired, nor did they bushwhack the tester, once the tester's company is called, the carrier pays for the test, whether it is completed or not.

Once a carrier removes an employee from T&E service for any suspected medical issue, drug or alcohol issue, the carrier has 10 calendar days to either bring charges against the employee or reinstate them with back pay.

Because of this, a carrier may approach an employee they suspect may have a sleep disorder, and request they voluntarily undergo testing....which the employee will most likely refuse to do, most of us like our jobs.(see the above about when the problem began)

This leaves the carrier little choice, either ignore the suspected problem, or have the employee followed by officers to see if they can document the problem.

If the problem is documented sufficiently to cause the carrier to believe there truly is a medical disorder, they will arrange testing ahead of time, then charge the employee, remove them from service, and require them to be tested.

Rarely is there a documented case of a true medical disorder, in almost all instances, the employee is simply fatigued from trying to live a normal lifestyle while holding a job with hours that are anything but normal.

This brings about the issue of whether carriers should be able to remove from service employees they feel are "at risk" for medical issues, lifestyle choices or possible drug issues.

 The problem with that is it requires the carrier to be given access to private medical records, which, given most carriers management style, would almost certainly be used to apply pressure to employees.

A few years back BNSF attempted to force T&E employees to furnish genetic material samples, which the carrier was going to use to determine if an employee was at risk from a potential medical issue, an attempt to predetermine if someone was going to become diabetic, have a stroke, heart attack, so forth and so on.

The issue was resolved in the court system, with a judge ruling the potential for the carrier to use such information to weed out employees they felt may, at a future date, develop medical problems, by terminating them for other, non-medical related issue, and the carriers insurance company abusing the same information by either denying coverage or raising individuals rates based on such information was so great and that such a request was a clear violation of an employee's right to privacy.

How would any employer determine an employee was "at risk" unless they tested the individual for whatever the suspected issue was, be it drugs or alcohol abuse, or a supposed medical issue?

Based on my personal behavior and lifestyle, I should be suspect of being a candidate for a heart attack or stroke; I smoke, drink lots of coffee and eat fried food all the time.

Even though I have never exhibited any symptoms of heart problems or stroke, shouldn't I be considered a "at risk" employee?

And we all know of someone who exhibited zero symptoms of cardiovascular problems, who exercises regularly, eats all the right food, and never has been sick a day in their life, those people who one day simply drop dead from a massive heart attack or stroke.

What about the kid, (everyone knows one of these) who looks like the biggest dope head in the world, you know, the one with all the tattoos, piercings in their ears, nose and such, weird hair cut dyed bright orange or some other odd color.

You know, the one that looks like they should be on "Cops"?...but it turns out they are real good employees, show up every day, do a great job, turn out to be really trustworthy and such, but just look "out there"?

What would be the criteria you would use to determine I needed to be tested, or this kid?

Your personal belief system?

Or should you be required by law, as it currently is, to have recent and precise documentation that supports the suspicions of an issue?

[BaltACD]

Since this thread is based on Safety Recommendation R-02-24, -25, and –26; what are they? 

[Georgia Railroader]

I'm with Henry6, way too many variables, one size does not fit all.

[henry6]

I knew a guy in the drug testing business.  He told me that most industry managers, including railroad insdustry, could not afford to have testing done on active crews because they would lose them for 24 hours to serveral weeks and months.  So, avoid, avoid, avoid.  Lay a train up someplace out in the wilderness so the crew won't get tested; call the drug tester in then don't have any trian crews because the train got in sooner than the tester arrived or got hung up someplace out there somehwere; or not call the known offenders in to work when the tester was going to be there.  Also, don't use testers who follow rules and instructions and procedures.

So carry this thinking to sleep, turnaround time, "the law", the rules, the need to have that train out at something o'clock come Hell or Highwater, no other crews avaialbe on full rest or whatever.  ANd there is the guy who needs to work, needs the time, has to get out there, has to get back soon.  There are so many facits to rules, time off, rest, rest vs sleep, sleep vs time off.  I remember one time an engineer  friend came to a meeting 40 miles from his home because he was last out on the board, no trains in sight the caller said.  He came in the door to the meeting and he got a two hour notice call because two ahead on the board knocked off and an extra was called.  If he had been a drinking man or doing drugs,, he would have had a hard decsion to make as would his supervisors.   There are many,, many sides to this issue of sleep and rest and fatigue, and no one answer.

 

[BroadwayLion]

Frequently sleep disorders are treated by 1) a sleep study in a hospital; and 2) if necessary a prescription for a CPAP machine. I have one and I am sleeping much better. The machine does have a recorder to measure compliance so if you have a OTR truck license, it will be suspended if you are out of compliance. I do not know about air, sea or rail, but I assume the same can be done.

THAT SAID... Positive Train Control makes more sense. Is if foolproof? No, NYCT proved that, but properly implemented the train is automatically stopped if a signal is improperly passed. Every little bit helps.

 

ROAR