Murphy Siding I guess blownout cylinder, like a lot of us, just doesn't have that *visionary* thing.
Oh that’s okay. We have to have somebody inside of the box in order for there to be a box that we visionaries can be outside of.
I guess blownout cylinder, like a lot of us, just doesn't have that *visionary* thing.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
blownout cylinder What is this? Looking for converts to a new 'religion' of sorts? You guys are not convincing me that your overarching system is going to work...simples. For as long as we had towns and cities there were always certain jobs that required people to work nights...even in the medieval era there were nightwatchmen and such that still did the night time thing... Even agricultural societies had them.
What is this?
Looking for converts to a new 'religion' of sorts?
You guys are not convincing me that your overarching system is going to work...simples.
For as long as we had towns and cities there were always certain jobs that required people to work nights...even in the medieval era there were nightwatchmen and such that still did the night time thing...
Even agricultural societies had them.
You are right. But so am I . I am right that you are not going to open your mind to understand this idea, understand the idea that something has to and will be done about fatigue, and that you don't want to change from where you are and what you do now.
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henry6What I am wondering is why you are fighting against this idea so hard? In some ways you might have a lot to gain in salary, lifestyle, and safety. So you made the career choice knowing what it was...what if it could be made better? What are you afraid of? Afraid of "overseers"? Nothing is going to be taken away from you but a lot might be given to you.
Great point.
blownout cylinder henry6: blownout cylinder: So, I see. There will be a system in place that will make sure that this is done by the books? Wouldn't this company need a lot of overseers involved to make sure this happens? I know that one can 'black box' quite a lot of information that will log hours and such..how are these going to be utilized? This could be construed to mean the quality of engineers, their ability and honesty, are not very good, and therefore need to be micromanaged. If so than I am wrong in believing that railroaders have integrity, honesty, and a desire to do a good honest days work without being spied upon. Who do you know in the railroad industry tthat makes you think this way? And just who was it that was talking about the drugs and all that? Hmmm? As for this other stuff, I am not suggesting that they need to be micromanaged...but that the way this whole debate seems focused...after all, all this talk about dealing with the uncertainties of something that everyone who enters into this, or any OTHER field, for that matter, already KNOWS is not perfect already implies that very thing... I KNEW what I was in for in this career choice, so were those in the logistics field...
henry6: blownout cylinder: So, I see. There will be a system in place that will make sure that this is done by the books? Wouldn't this company need a lot of overseers involved to make sure this happens? I know that one can 'black box' quite a lot of information that will log hours and such..how are these going to be utilized? This could be construed to mean the quality of engineers, their ability and honesty, are not very good, and therefore need to be micromanaged. If so than I am wrong in believing that railroaders have integrity, honesty, and a desire to do a good honest days work without being spied upon. Who do you know in the railroad industry tthat makes you think this way?
blownout cylinder: So, I see. There will be a system in place that will make sure that this is done by the books? Wouldn't this company need a lot of overseers involved to make sure this happens? I know that one can 'black box' quite a lot of information that will log hours and such..how are these going to be utilized?
So, I see. There will be a system in place that will make sure that this is done by the books?
Wouldn't this company need a lot of overseers involved to make sure this happens?
I know that one can 'black box' quite a lot of information that will log hours and such..how are these going to be utilized?
This could be construed to mean the quality of engineers, their ability and honesty, are not very good, and therefore need to be micromanaged. If so than I am wrong in believing that railroaders have integrity, honesty, and a desire to do a good honest days work without being spied upon. Who do you know in the railroad industry tthat makes you think this way?
And just who was it that was talking about the drugs and all that? Hmmm?
As for this other stuff, I am not suggesting that they need to be micromanaged...but that the way this whole debate seems focused...after all, all this talk about dealing with the uncertainties of something that everyone who enters into this, or any OTHER field, for that matter, already KNOWS is not perfect already implies that very thing...
I KNEW what I was in for in this career choice, so were those in the logistics field...
What I am wondering is why you are fighting against this idea so hard? In some ways you might have a lot to gain in salary, lifestyle, and safety. So you made the career choice knowing what it was...what if it could be made better? What are you afraid of? Afraid of "overseers"? Nothing is going to be taken away from you but a lot might be given to you.
Murphy Siding Bucyrus: I do not see what is meant by several people here saying that this has to make economic sense in order for the railroads to accept it. There is currently developing, a formulated approach to solving this problem. And I don’t think it is going to make economic sense. I would not be surprised if it doubles the cost of labor. I don’t think the railroads or the unions are going to be in a position to reject the solution just because it adds cost or does not make economic sense. Does PTC make economic sense? Why is everything in your world viewed through your *The big-bad government is out to get all of us and make us slaves to their every whim, and we are utterly powerless to stop THEM" goggles? Oof duh! Change is going to come. It always does. Change will come to this situation as well. The change will be evolutionary, as most things are, not revolutionary (or visionary, for that matter.) Railroad safety has been improving since the day the first tracks were laid. Were the big-bad wolf able to force railroads to change everything about their operations, whether it involve sleep pattersn, operations in fog, black tankcars, or whatever else, it won't be done in a vaccuum. The government will be able to FORCE the railroads into operating 9:00 to 5:00, Monday thryu Friday. (On days it's not foggy.) This will happen the same time that the government FORCES the airlines, truckers, police, fire departments, military, hospitals, power plants, etc..etc..etc... to do the same. I understand your paranoia and your agenda. But why? Why does it have to the focus of everything you type about any subject under the sun?
Bucyrus: I do not see what is meant by several people here saying that this has to make economic sense in order for the railroads to accept it. There is currently developing, a formulated approach to solving this problem. And I don’t think it is going to make economic sense. I would not be surprised if it doubles the cost of labor. I don’t think the railroads or the unions are going to be in a position to reject the solution just because it adds cost or does not make economic sense. Does PTC make economic sense?
I don’t think the railroads or the unions are going to be in a position to reject the solution just because it adds cost or does not make economic sense. Does PTC make economic sense?
I think that is what you are projecting from your perception of what I am saying, and that the goggles you speak of are on your eyes, not mine. I have no control over the fact that you think I am pushing an agenda, or paranoid. But, I do think you are jumping to conclusions in making everything I say fit your model of what you think I am about.
This sleep issue is what it is. I can see it but I can't change it. Open your eyes and look at it. Let me know if you think it is something other than what I see. I'll be glad to consider it.
henry6 blownout cylinder: So, I see. There will be a system in place that will make sure that this is done by the books? Wouldn't this company need a lot of overseers involved to make sure this happens? I know that one can 'black box' quite a lot of information that will log hours and such..how are these going to be utilized? This could be construed to mean the quality of engineers, their ability and honesty, are not very good, and therefore need to be micromanaged. If so than I am wrong in believing that railroaders have integrity, honesty, and a desire to do a good honest days work without being spied upon. Who do you know in the railroad industry tthat makes you think this way?
uummmm...one source?
And this is done...how?
And, are there going to be jobs for those who actually work better the way it is now?
2 shifts? 3shifts or just 1 shift?....
Maybe it will need a large mindshift in how things are done all around....
blownout cylinder So, I see. There will be a system in place that will make sure that this is done by the books? Wouldn't this company need a lot of overseers involved to make sure this happens? I know that one can 'black box' quite a lot of information that will log hours and such..how are these going to be utilized?
Look, I am actually thinking that the way it is done NOW is actually quite good..it has actually worked for a lot of people. It is really annoying to have to remind people that we are no longer seeing people working 16-30 hour shifts such as had happened up until a few decades ago...the ONLY time I personally had to work a double shift was when one of my fellow PSW's got stuck in a snowsquall here...
blownout cylinder So, definitely into the conspiracy end here....and is this going to be through the government basically 'nationalizing' the transportation sector?
So, definitely into the conspiracy end here....and is this going to be through the government basically 'nationalizing' the transportation sector?
What conspiracy? And no, the railroads would be private or public sector. It is just that you would draw some or all of you employees from once source. I would think those of you who are on the road would want security of steady pay, predictable and practical hours, and the feeling of knowing the guy ahead of you, the guy behind you, and the guy coming at you are all in the same frame of mind and condition as you will mean there is less fear of accidents and delays. Maybe it will cost more out of pocket for the railroads than now; but with realible availabily of rested and qualified crews and calling times, the fact that fatigue and other things will be lessend, this system will yield more effieincies and fewer accidents meaning costs will the same or less than now.
Bucyrus I do not see what is meant by several people here saying that this has to make economic sense in order for the railroads to accept it. There is currently developing, a formulated approach to solving this problem. And I don’t think it is going to make economic sense. I would not be surprised if it doubles the cost of labor. I don’t think the railroads or the unions are going to be in a position to reject the solution just because it adds cost or does not make economic sense. Does PTC make economic sense?
Calling something half baked and making half as**d wisecracks does not solve the problem nor address the questions put forward nor make the posters look as intellegent as they says they are. It just might happen that one becomes a licesned engineer and will be pooled so that he will have to go to work under prescribed conditions of vacation, rest, sleep time immediately before going to work, all imposed with a flat salary. If it cures the problem of fatigue, property damage, and inuries and death, lost time, and lost wages for everyone who won't be working when there is a wreck. Forget everything you know about present work rules, time off, pay scales, etc. You'll be given job assignements where they are or on which railroad (remember I've allowed for one to sign on with his preferences being acknowledged). I would suggest that pay..salaried pay...be apportioned to be equal to working 40 hours a week 52 weeks a year in an amount averaging out to straight time and accustomed or normally accrued overtime....I guy working five days a week regular could make more than working three overtime days and lose a turn!) A lot of things can be done to make it work. But just saying out of hand it won't work doesn't make sense.,
blownout cylinderSo, one is talking about an overarching system that will not make any economic sense, but will have to be done...at whose expense then? Would this system also affect OTR as well?
It would be at the expense of the transportation customer. And yes, I think it will be coming to other night shift industries, particularly trucking. However, there are other night shift industries where suddenly falling asleep would not be as life threatening, so they would be at a lower priority for action.
So, one is talking about an overarching system that will not make any economic sense, but will have to be done...at whose expense then? Would this system also affect OTR as well?
A lot of FUD going on here...
BTW...there are a lot of areas wherein the 24/7 world exists...would it be cut to, say, 15/5 then?
I do not see what is meant by several people here saying that this has to make economic sense in order for the railroads to accept it. There is currently developing, a formulated approach to solving this problem. And I don’t think it is going to make economic sense. I would not be surprised if it doubles the cost of labor.
henry6 Ed...this was an idea thrown out by me as a thought toward a solution to a problem. But the railroaders don't want to have anything to do with it so we will never know the costs, the rules, the adjustments, who would organize and run such an operation. No body wants to constructively assess this idea but they have all said that it can never work if only because of the way they have always railroaded and nothing can be changed. This is not the place to seriously discuss possiblities, only affirm the past.
Ed...this was an idea thrown out by me as a thought toward a solution to a problem. But the railroaders don't want to have anything to do with it so we will never know the costs, the rules, the adjustments, who would organize and run such an operation. No body wants to constructively assess this idea but they have all said that it can never work if only because of the way they have always railroaded and nothing can be changed. This is not the place to seriously discuss possiblities, only affirm the past.
Something that is only half baked and not thought through will rarely if ever make a finished product, let alone a product superior in functionality and economic return to those to which it is to be marketed.
Qualifications of railroad operating personnel require much more than minimum wage service personnel. Getting qualified on a territory is not just taking a round trip ride over the territory to familiarize one with the looks of the territory. Many runs require operation over segments of other carriers property and thus employees operating on such territory must get certified on that carriers rules and procedures for that segment of territory. While the carriers follow standardized formats in the Rule Books, the rules are not necessarily identical as they are tailored to the specific needs of the carrier who publish them.
One thing you have not mentioned about your 'crew service' is how much liability you feature your service will be responsible for - I am certain, the carriers will hold you liable for anything and everything your crews get involved with - get involved in a derailment with HAZMAT release and territory evacuation and the carriers will be looking at your service to foot the millions and millions in liability stemming from the incident that was 'caused' by your crews.
Carriers will only sign up for something that makes economic sense for them. So far as you have presented you ideas, I don't see anything that makes economic sense for the carriers; in fact, as presented I don't see anything that makes economic sense for you as the owner of the service.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I am late to the party on this one, but just spent an hour reading and catching up.
A couple of comments from a NON railroader.
1. Interesting concept.
2. Henry, can you provide a pro-forma for this including the costs involved/savings to railroads, etc. Please explain how the increase in labor (if wages/benefits remain the same) will provide economic benefits to the railroads. Someone earlier mentioned a 10% reduction in labor costs to make this a break even....while I do not know railroading, I do have an idea of costs of running a business and the 10% discount rate for running this is short, it should be closer to 25% - 35%. So, either the labor rates will come down by that amount (that will be difficult sell to the brotherhood members) or the labor costs to railroads will increase by that amount (difficult to sell to the suits). So...show me the money.
3. Included in that labor discount/increase will be considerable labor training costs. How would you propose administering that aspect?
4. I know railroads do not pay into Social Security program, having their own such benefit. How would that be impacted?
5. What are the startup costs for such a service and how would you roll this out? Would you selectively apply this concept to certain high density regions with multiple routes?
Looking forward to your reply.
Ed
One thing seems certain, and that is that addressing the railroad sleep disorder problem is going to be difficult. However, I do not believe that the solution needs to be cost effective. I expect it to add cost. I don’t see how it could be otherwise. So, I do not see this as something that industry has to approve on a cost effective basis, as is the case with changing from DC to AC traction, for example. Instead, the shift work sleep disorder solution will come from regulation. It will be like PTC, in that it will be mandated in the name of safety, and the industry will be forced to pay for it.
blownout cylinder [snipped - PDN] As for the rest issue...it needs a piecemeal approach. Like it or not...there are no such things as 'magic bullets' or single system methods to handle complexities such as these....
It is interesting to note that the OP was more about workers at risk for sleep disorders. That is a whole 'nother kettle of fish to deal with.
There are whole ranges of sleep disorders going all the way to those such as Narcolepsy that are theoretically rendering people incapable of working at these types of jobs. The ones mentioned wherein one needs CPAP..such as Sleep Apnea are a little more doable....
All these things do is to make the situation a little less of an issue ...for those who suffer from that issue.
As for the rest issue...it needs a piecemeal approach. Like it or not...there are no such things as 'magic bullets' or single system methods to handle complexities such as these....
blownout cylinder It wasn't directed at you...just this whole thing....I almost posted a Waambulance a few post back ....some people have a system and they want so much to get it done, unfortunately
It wasn't directed at you...just this whole thing....I almost posted a Waambulance a few post back ....some people have a system and they want so much to get it done, unfortunately
LOL you would have beat me to it. Yea it's getting out of hand, but hey man that's life. We gotta agree to disagree I guess. Life goes on.
And on that note I'm out, it's been a long day of kicking cars and stomping rocks.
blownout cylinder Must have been the Super Moon what done it.....
Must have been the Super Moon what done it.....
Oh that's brilliant.........keep trying, you almost got it.
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