If the story on Trains Newswire today..Tue 4-24-12...there is nothing wrong with Rairoad Retirement. It is a program between railroad and employees and is not a government program like SS, etc. However, there are Congressmen, apparently, who would like to get their hands on RRR and bring payments into line with SS payments. They don't understand what RRR is or they don't want to be shown up by RRR with their poor managment of SS.
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I am not sure what the problem is with RRR, or what the remedy is. But if I were working for a railroad, this is what I would worry about:
Having RRR reduced in a way that amounts to a pay cut for future earnings.
Having RRR reduced in a way that amounts to depletion of past withholding.
The second item would be far more troublesome than the first.
diningcar Henry, I believe this was done in the Lyndon Johnson era. If someone knows exactly when please post it.
Henry, I believe this was done in the Lyndon Johnson era. If someone knows exactly when please post it.
I'm repeating what I've read...but cannot verify my source anymore....I know Reagan liked the idea but it was not Reagan (nor Johnson for that matter) but rather Congress who raided SS for the General Fund, thus there was no longer an SS Trust Fund to accrue interest as in the past as a large amount was "borrowed" makeing it harder for the sum left to accrue and catch up.
diningcar We are OVERLOOKING the fact that money we and our employers deposited into these funds have not been LOCKED UP AND DRAWING INTEREST as they once were. There is no TRUST FUND WITH A BALANCE. Instead several years ago Congress BORROWED IT and put it in the GENERAL FUND CATAGORY so they could spend it. Now it is OWED to us and payment to us must come from the General Fund money's like other appropriations.
We are OVERLOOKING the fact that money we and our employers deposited into these funds have not been LOCKED UP AND DRAWING INTEREST as they once were. There is no TRUST FUND WITH A BALANCE. Instead several years ago Congress BORROWED IT and put it in the GENERAL FUND CATAGORY so they could spend it. Now it is OWED to us and payment to us must come from the General Fund money's like other appropriations.
We are not overlooking the fact but the politicians who don't want you to get your return from SS or RRR are either overlooking it or trying to make you overlook it. Reagan and Congress stole from SS and never put it back then take the problem out on us.
As to who is getting screwed, anyone and everyone who has contributed their earnings or whose employer has contributed in their name is getting screwed by not getting the benefits agreed upon when the money was taken. Further, those who actually believe RRR and SS are entitlements, free money, government gifts, are getting mentally screwed by those who preach the deceptiive lies.
Milepost 266.2 Ulrich: Georgia Railroader: Ulrich: Phoebe Vet: A very large portion of our society cannot manage their credit cards and checking accounts. Asking them to manage their retirement fund is begging for disaster. Expecting a 30 year old single mother with 3 children who works at a retail outlet in the mall to contribute any meaningful amount to a 401-k is living in a dream world. Perhaps the change that is required is to take the retirement system out of the hands of employers and just require employers to contribute a percentage of an employee's salary to an independent fund. (Sound familiar?) If you don't trust the government to handle it, it could be run by insurance companies. It is already done in the construction industry where retirement funds are managed by the unions. Still...if you can do it, it is better to manage it yourself as much as possible. Railroad people make enough..most could probably sock 5% or even 10% away per year if they really wanted to. Over 20 or 30 years with compounding interest factored in, that really adds up.. But I agree, its not for everyone. That is one broad brush you are painting with....do a little research first. We dont all knock down six figures a year like some think. Some of us are scraping by. Ok then. That's news to me. I thought railroading paid well..i.e. 40 to 75K a year. I know that it ain't six figures. Thanks for the feedback.. I think this illustrates the larger problem when it comes to "entitlements". Too many people are asking "why does the other guy deserve anything?" when they should be asking "why am I the one getting screwed?"
Ulrich: Georgia Railroader: Ulrich: Phoebe Vet: A very large portion of our society cannot manage their credit cards and checking accounts. Asking them to manage their retirement fund is begging for disaster. Expecting a 30 year old single mother with 3 children who works at a retail outlet in the mall to contribute any meaningful amount to a 401-k is living in a dream world. Perhaps the change that is required is to take the retirement system out of the hands of employers and just require employers to contribute a percentage of an employee's salary to an independent fund. (Sound familiar?) If you don't trust the government to handle it, it could be run by insurance companies. It is already done in the construction industry where retirement funds are managed by the unions. Still...if you can do it, it is better to manage it yourself as much as possible. Railroad people make enough..most could probably sock 5% or even 10% away per year if they really wanted to. Over 20 or 30 years with compounding interest factored in, that really adds up.. But I agree, its not for everyone. That is one broad brush you are painting with....do a little research first. We dont all knock down six figures a year like some think. Some of us are scraping by. Ok then. That's news to me. I thought railroading paid well..i.e. 40 to 75K a year. I know that it ain't six figures. Thanks for the feedback..
Georgia Railroader: Ulrich: Phoebe Vet: A very large portion of our society cannot manage their credit cards and checking accounts. Asking them to manage their retirement fund is begging for disaster. Expecting a 30 year old single mother with 3 children who works at a retail outlet in the mall to contribute any meaningful amount to a 401-k is living in a dream world. Perhaps the change that is required is to take the retirement system out of the hands of employers and just require employers to contribute a percentage of an employee's salary to an independent fund. (Sound familiar?) If you don't trust the government to handle it, it could be run by insurance companies. It is already done in the construction industry where retirement funds are managed by the unions. Still...if you can do it, it is better to manage it yourself as much as possible. Railroad people make enough..most could probably sock 5% or even 10% away per year if they really wanted to. Over 20 or 30 years with compounding interest factored in, that really adds up.. But I agree, its not for everyone. That is one broad brush you are painting with....do a little research first. We dont all knock down six figures a year like some think. Some of us are scraping by.
Ulrich: Phoebe Vet: A very large portion of our society cannot manage their credit cards and checking accounts. Asking them to manage their retirement fund is begging for disaster. Expecting a 30 year old single mother with 3 children who works at a retail outlet in the mall to contribute any meaningful amount to a 401-k is living in a dream world. Perhaps the change that is required is to take the retirement system out of the hands of employers and just require employers to contribute a percentage of an employee's salary to an independent fund. (Sound familiar?) If you don't trust the government to handle it, it could be run by insurance companies. It is already done in the construction industry where retirement funds are managed by the unions. Still...if you can do it, it is better to manage it yourself as much as possible. Railroad people make enough..most could probably sock 5% or even 10% away per year if they really wanted to. Over 20 or 30 years with compounding interest factored in, that really adds up.. But I agree, its not for everyone.
Phoebe Vet: A very large portion of our society cannot manage their credit cards and checking accounts. Asking them to manage their retirement fund is begging for disaster. Expecting a 30 year old single mother with 3 children who works at a retail outlet in the mall to contribute any meaningful amount to a 401-k is living in a dream world. Perhaps the change that is required is to take the retirement system out of the hands of employers and just require employers to contribute a percentage of an employee's salary to an independent fund. (Sound familiar?) If you don't trust the government to handle it, it could be run by insurance companies. It is already done in the construction industry where retirement funds are managed by the unions.
A very large portion of our society cannot manage their credit cards and checking accounts. Asking them to manage their retirement fund is begging for disaster. Expecting a 30 year old single mother with 3 children who works at a retail outlet in the mall to contribute any meaningful amount to a 401-k is living in a dream world.
Perhaps the change that is required is to take the retirement system out of the hands of employers and just require employers to contribute a percentage of an employee's salary to an independent fund. (Sound familiar?) If you don't trust the government to handle it, it could be run by insurance companies. It is already done in the construction industry where retirement funds are managed by the unions.
Still...if you can do it, it is better to manage it yourself as much as possible. Railroad people make enough..most could probably sock 5% or even 10% away per year if they really wanted to. Over 20 or 30 years with compounding interest factored in, that really adds up..
But I agree, its not for everyone.
That is one broad brush you are painting with....do a little research first. We dont all knock down six figures a year like some think. Some of us are scraping by.
Ok then. That's news to me. I thought railroading paid well..i.e. 40 to 75K a year. I know that it ain't six figures. Thanks for the feedback..
I think this illustrates the larger problem when it comes to "entitlements". Too many people are asking "why does the other guy deserve anything?" when they should be asking "why am I the one getting screwed?"
Who's getting screwed?
Milepost 266.2 I think this illustrates the larger problem when it comes to "entitlements". Too many people are asking "why does the other guy deserve anything?" when they should be asking "why am I the one getting screwed?"
Here's another ignorance about things: no one knows what entitlement is. Railroad Retirement and Social Security are not entitlements. Money is put into an account for the employee by the employee and his employer in the employee's name to be drawn from. RR and SS are wholly owned by the employee who puts the money in. An entitlement is getting a tax reduction or outright unpaid or unearned gift from the government.
Ulrich Georgia Railroader: Ulrich: Phoebe Vet: A very large portion of our society cannot manage their credit cards and checking accounts. Asking them to manage their retirement fund is begging for disaster. Expecting a 30 year old single mother with 3 children who works at a retail outlet in the mall to contribute any meaningful amount to a 401-k is living in a dream world. Perhaps the change that is required is to take the retirement system out of the hands of employers and just require employers to contribute a percentage of an employee's salary to an independent fund. (Sound familiar?) If you don't trust the government to handle it, it could be run by insurance companies. It is already done in the construction industry where retirement funds are managed by the unions. Still...if you can do it, it is better to manage it yourself as much as possible. Railroad people make enough..most could probably sock 5% or even 10% away per year if they really wanted to. Over 20 or 30 years with compounding interest factored in, that really adds up.. But I agree, its not for everyone. That is one broad brush you are painting with....do a little research first. We dont all knock down six figures a year like some think. Some of us are scraping by. Ok then. That's news to me. I thought railroading paid well..i.e. 40 to 75K a year. I know that it ain't six figures. Thanks for the feedback..
A) Having RRR reduced in a way that amounts to a pay cut for future earnings.
B) Having RRR reduced in a way that amounts to depletion of past withholding.
Item B would be far more troublesome than item A.
RAILROAD RETIREMENT IS FUNDED BY RAILROAD EMPLOYEES AND RAILROAD COMPANIES, I.E. EMPLOYEES AND EMPLOYERS AND NOT BY TAXPAYERS. LIKEWISE SOCIAL SECURITY IS FUNDED BY EMPLOYEES AND EMPLOYERS AND NOT BY TAXPAYER FUNDS. WHAT YOU ARE HEARING FROM THE ANTI SOCIAL SECURITY POLITICIANS (YOU KNOW WHO THEY ARE) ARE IGNORANT LIES! BELOW IS TESTAMENT TO THOSE LIES.
BaltACD A e-mail being distributed among the railroad crafts Dear Brothers: Our Railroad Retirement System is under attack. The Chairman of the House of Representatives Committee on the Budget, Paul Ryan (WI-R), has suggested that cutting back on Railroad Retirement benefits would save taxpayers “$2 billion over 10 years.” This is false and establishes his ignorance on how our Railroad Retirement System functions. The Ryan Budget, which was passed by the House in March, completely ignores the relationship between Railroad Retirement and Social Security. All Railroad Retirement benefits above Social Security — whether Tier I benefits or Tier II benefits — are fully funded by railroad workers and their employers; none of these benefits are funded from the general treasury. We are in the process of visiting with Congressmen and Senators to educate them and eliminate the damaging language contained in the House budget. Railroad retirement payroll taxes, like railroad retirement benefits, are calculated on a two-tier basis. Railroad employees and employers pay Tier I taxes at the same rate as social security taxes. When railroad employees retire, the Tier I benefits replicate the benefits railroad workers would receive if they were covered by social security. Railroad employees and employers both pay an additional retirement tax, Tier II, which is used to finance railroad retirement benefit payments over and above those levels contained in social security. The Social Security Administration (SSA) reimburses the Railroad Retirement Trust Fund for all benefits paid that are identical to Social Security benefits and nothing more. The SSA does NOT reimburse the Railroad Retirement Trust Fund for benefits that are unavailable under the Social Security Act. All annuity payments which are above those provided by the Social Security Act are funded by Tier II taxes. There are no public funds or general tax revenues used to pay these annuities; therefore, there are no taxpayer savings by approving the Ryan Budget plan. The assertion that changing the way our retirement system pays benefits would somehow save tax dollars is simply untrue. We have been monitoring this issue ever since it became apparent what Congressman Ryan was attempting to do. Our Legislative Department has been working for weeks, in conjunction with our sister unions’ Legislative Departments (with the support of the Railroad Retirement Board and the Association of American Railroads), to get the offending language removed from the House budget proposal. The Senate has not moved on this budget yet, and we are working closely with various Senators to make certain that the offending language is not passed during this session and is not progressed in any subsequent session. I thank you for taking the time to read this letter. I do not think that the legislation will be progressed by the Senate in this session, but we are monitoring it closely. If I see a future need to motivate our members to call their Senators and Congressmen on this issue, I will be contacting you for your assistance. We are in a serious fight, but for now, we believe that our Legislative Department is well positioned to keep us abreast of any changes. In Solidarity, W. Dan Pickett President Brotherhood of Railroad Signalmen
A e-mail being distributed among the railroad crafts
Dear Brothers: Our Railroad Retirement System is under attack. The Chairman of the House of Representatives Committee on the Budget, Paul Ryan (WI-R), has suggested that cutting back on Railroad Retirement benefits would save taxpayers “$2 billion over 10 years.” This is false and establishes his ignorance on how our Railroad Retirement System functions. The Ryan Budget, which was passed by the House in March, completely ignores the relationship between Railroad Retirement and Social Security. All Railroad Retirement benefits above Social Security — whether Tier I benefits or Tier II benefits — are fully funded by railroad workers and their employers; none of these benefits are funded from the general treasury. We are in the process of visiting with Congressmen and Senators to educate them and eliminate the damaging language contained in the House budget. Railroad retirement payroll taxes, like railroad retirement benefits, are calculated on a two-tier basis. Railroad employees and employers pay Tier I taxes at the same rate as social security taxes. When railroad employees retire, the Tier I benefits replicate the benefits railroad workers would receive if they were covered by social security. Railroad employees and employers both pay an additional retirement tax, Tier II, which is used to finance railroad retirement benefit payments over and above those levels contained in social security. The Social Security Administration (SSA) reimburses the Railroad Retirement Trust Fund for all benefits paid that are identical to Social Security benefits and nothing more. The SSA does NOT reimburse the Railroad Retirement Trust Fund for benefits that are unavailable under the Social Security Act. All annuity payments which are above those provided by the Social Security Act are funded by Tier II taxes. There are no public funds or general tax revenues used to pay these annuities; therefore, there are no taxpayer savings by approving the Ryan Budget plan. The assertion that changing the way our retirement system pays benefits would somehow save tax dollars is simply untrue. We have been monitoring this issue ever since it became apparent what Congressman Ryan was attempting to do. Our Legislative Department has been working for weeks, in conjunction with our sister unions’ Legislative Departments (with the support of the Railroad Retirement Board and the Association of American Railroads), to get the offending language removed from the House budget proposal. The Senate has not moved on this budget yet, and we are working closely with various Senators to make certain that the offending language is not passed during this session and is not progressed in any subsequent session. I thank you for taking the time to read this letter. I do not think that the legislation will be progressed by the Senate in this session, but we are monitoring it closely. If I see a future need to motivate our members to call their Senators and Congressmen on this issue, I will be contacting you for your assistance. We are in a serious fight, but for now, we believe that our Legislative Department is well positioned to keep us abreast of any changes. In Solidarity, W. Dan Pickett President Brotherhood of Railroad Signalmen
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
SS is not part of the federal budget, It is funded by a separate FICA tax. In fact, because the excess collections are "invested" in government securities, it effectively contributed INCOME to the federal budget.
Calling it " the monster that eats the entire federal budget" is inaccurate.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
At its heart, Railroad Retirement is a pay as you go system. Due to declining numbers of active railroad employees, on several occasions in the past it has required infusions of cash from the taxpayers. Now it is facing the same changing demographics as is being experienced by the Social Security system -- retirees living longer and so on. The actuarial reports are posted online for those interested in the details.
Just as Social Security has to be reformed before it becomes the monster that eats the entire federal budget, so should RR Retirement be reformed. "Reformed" does not mean eliminated, but it does mean changed. To not recognize that is to be in a state of denial that insures the changes will be more harsh when they occur.
Georgia Railroader Ulrich: Georgia Railroader: Ulrich: Phoebe Vet: A very large portion of our society cannot manage their credit cards and checking accounts. Asking them to manage their retirement fund is begging for disaster. Expecting a 30 year old single mother with 3 children who works at a retail outlet in the mall to contribute any meaningful amount to a 401-k is living in a dream world. Perhaps the change that is required is to take the retirement system out of the hands of employers and just require employers to contribute a percentage of an employee's salary to an independent fund. (Sound familiar?) If you don't trust the government to handle it, it could be run by insurance companies. It is already done in the construction industry where retirement funds are managed by the unions. Still...if you can do it, it is better to manage it yourself as much as possible. Railroad people make enough..most could probably sock 5% or even 10% away per year if they really wanted to. Over 20 or 30 years with compounding interest factored in, that really adds up.. But I agree, its not for everyone. That is one broad brush you are painting with....do a little research first. We dont all knock down six figures a year like some think. Some of us are scraping by. Ok then. That's news to me. I thought railroading paid well..i.e. 40 to 75K a year. I know that it ain't six figures. Thanks for the feedback.. Dont get me wrong, there is good money to be made out here. Location is key, I work where it's extremely slow and throw in the fact that the company has overhired, I average about two to four job starts every half(two weeks). That doesn't leave a lot of money after taxes,retirement,union dues, and job insurance are taken out. Then you have guys who can hold regular jobs, and the ones who work busy extraboards, some of these guys can just about right their own paychecks. I would kill to make 75K a year.
Dont get me wrong, there is good money to be made out here. Location is key, I work where it's extremely slow and throw in the fact that the company has overhired, I average about two to four job starts every half(two weeks). That doesn't leave a lot of money after taxes,retirement,union dues, and job insurance are taken out. Then you have guys who can hold regular jobs, and the ones who work busy extraboards, some of these guys can just about right their own paychecks. I would kill to make 75K a year.
Thanks for clearing that up for me Georgia Railroader...
Depends on where you live to a large extent... If you live in downtown LA or Toronto then yes. If you live in Timmins, Ontario or Smalltown America then you'd be quite well off with six figures..
With near $4 a gallon gas and over $4 heating oil - anything less than 6 figures is basically scraping by.
Georgia Railroader Ulrich: Phoebe Vet: A very large portion of our society cannot manage their credit cards and checking accounts. Asking them to manage their retirement fund is begging for disaster. Expecting a 30 year old single mother with 3 children who works at a retail outlet in the mall to contribute any meaningful amount to a 401-k is living in a dream world. Perhaps the change that is required is to take the retirement system out of the hands of employers and just require employers to contribute a percentage of an employee's salary to an independent fund. (Sound familiar?) If you don't trust the government to handle it, it could be run by insurance companies. It is already done in the construction industry where retirement funds are managed by the unions. Still...if you can do it, it is better to manage it yourself as much as possible. Railroad people make enough..most could probably sock 5% or even 10% away per year if they really wanted to. Over 20 or 30 years with compounding interest factored in, that really adds up.. But I agree, its not for everyone. That is one broad brush you are painting with....do a little research first. We dont all knock down six figures a year like some think. Some of us are scraping by.
Ulrich Phoebe Vet: A very large portion of our society cannot manage their credit cards and checking accounts. Asking them to manage their retirement fund is begging for disaster. Expecting a 30 year old single mother with 3 children who works at a retail outlet in the mall to contribute any meaningful amount to a 401-k is living in a dream world. Perhaps the change that is required is to take the retirement system out of the hands of employers and just require employers to contribute a percentage of an employee's salary to an independent fund. (Sound familiar?) If you don't trust the government to handle it, it could be run by insurance companies. It is already done in the construction industry where retirement funds are managed by the unions. Still...if you can do it, it is better to manage it yourself as much as possible. Railroad people make enough..most could probably sock 5% or even 10% away per year if they really wanted to. Over 20 or 30 years with compounding interest factored in, that really adds up.. But I agree, its not for everyone.
But we have charged government with overseeing our economy and our ability to wage war. It has been proven that giving everything to the private sector doesn't work...it if did the private sector wouldn't be seeking government help from financing, tarrif protection, unfair cometition protection, chartering to do business, and courts of all levels to make decisions about conduct, etc. Anarchy leads to chaos which leaves a society in bad economic and moral situations. With so many things, private sector, singley or as a group, can do only so much but has to rely on a government to be a catylist or partner in order for the private sector to exists in its own right and for society to exist at all.
Well, there's no getting away from it....life involves risk and uncertainty. no system or plan will guarantee you a comfortable retirement...and none of us who are still working really even know if we will live to see retirement. I'm not sure more government intervention is the answer.. We always give up something when we ask goverment for a helping hand.
Ulrich Maybe give people the choice and make them aware of the pros and cons of each. Up here employers often match retirement contributions. for example, if I put in $1000 then my employer will match that (to a point). That encourages people to save for retirement and gives them the flexibility to make their own investment decisions.
Maybe give people the choice and make them aware of the pros and cons of each. Up here employers often match retirement contributions. for example, if I put in $1000 then my employer will match that (to a point). That encourages people to save for retirement and gives them the flexibility to make their own investment decisions.
And say what: do what you want to do. What happens if those who choose private savings get caught in another depression with no money...are there enough windows high enough to kill them when they jump? Or do we promist them a safety net anyway and get a bad rap for being socialistic? NO! We've got to have the government take charge of the economics for both good and bad times so that everybody shares the hardships and the benefits equally. In other words, the government has to decide to take charge, use its authority, to manage the economy at any given time so that the most people ( and since the Supreme Court says corporations are people, this applies equally to them) for the benefit of the country.
Yeah, we gave in around 2000 and got a retirement account with a big bank and bigger yet mutual fund. As soon as Bush got in it lost money. In fact we have put more into it than what the balance is right now. I did just what the bankers and investment counselors and brokers said was the right thing; I was told to have faith in the Amrican free enterprise, private capital system; I was being a good (political party deleted) but have less now than if I had put the money in a coffee can in hole in the ground in the back yard. But the investment bankers, bankers, financial counselors, and brokers are living high off the hog and not being penalized or punished in any way for what they did. So what should be done with RRR and SS? Put it in individual's hands or keep the lump sum in the system, as socialistic as it is, so that there is a reward at the end of the tunnel for the employed? Or put it in the hands of private bankers to take all for themselves?
I'm no expert on financial matters. I invested in an IRA for one year; it has maybe quintupled in size since then, but that wouldn't make a monthly payment on our loans.I have a 401K. I don't even pretend to know when I'll have to start taking money from it (or paying taxes on it). Even though I'm no longer contributing to it, it grows quite a bit every quarter, thanks to a certain well-performing (knock on wood) stock that makes up virtually my whole portfolio (they keep suggesting to me a split between stocks and bonds of a certain percentage that would be "right for my age", but I am probably outperforming them as things sit). But I do know that I've paid into Railroad Retirement for nearly 40 years. The amounts I paid in were always well above FICA deductions--then it changed so Tier 2 and Tier 3 were added, and the railroad also had to make increased payments on my behalf. Now I'm retired--and though I would never say that I took the job because of a retirement plan (it's always been a sort of "they're paying me to do this?" kind of thing), I have to admit that Railroad Retirement is treating me quite well. Without going into too many specifics, my gross "take" is down somewhat, but most of it now comes directly to me. They withhold some Federal income tax from my monthly payments, but this past year I got every penny back. The amount of money that is given to me over and above my contributions to the fund while I was working is relatively insignificant--that's all I would have to pay taxes on, because I already paid the taxes on my own contributions. So I sincerely hope that some of these budget plans don't mess with this money...it's my money, and I'll let the government-sponsored board pay it to me at a proper, orderly rate. I hope I last long enough to collect at least everything I've put into it.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
So, as I understand it, Railroad Retirement is run by the federal government just like Social Security.
http://www.rrb.gov/opa/agency_overview.asp
Ulrich The armageddon was caused by con artists who took advantage of people who didn't have the sense to follow their own investments. Many who keep it simple and invest intelligently were unaffected.
The armageddon was caused by con artists who took advantage of people who didn't have the sense to follow their own investments. Many who keep it simple and invest intelligently were unaffected.
And those con artists comprised most of the financial system on the commercial banking, investment banking and stock brokerages - you name the financial market and the con artists raped it - and they were doing this with the other 'professionals' in the business - not just us 'know very littles' about the mechanics of the interlocking of various financial instruments.
You don't take down Lehman Brothers, Bank of America, Merrill Lynch, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and too many other recognizable names in the financial markets with simple schemes that are fair for both the investor and investee. The financial collapse just proved the the bulk of the financial markets were being orchestrated by crooks - crooks, that for the most part have yet to be charged or tried for their thievery.
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