The Trackside Lounge 2Q 2012

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

mudchicken

[snipped - PDN] With a number 8 turnout, that's almost a thirty degree curve ....Numbnuts, the engineer, pointed at a switch table and said that it was only a 9-31'-06", I about gagged. Do Engineering schools ever put out recall notices? 

Cripes !  Even Figure 2 of my AREMA presentation on "Guidelines for Turnouts in Horizontal Curves" topped out at 30 Deg. curvature sharpness, and that was merely to show how bad that could, get rather than to imply what could be done successfully - No. 8's were out of the running for consideration in 'parent' track curves over 18 Deg. !  

A straight/ standard No. 8 has a curvature in the curved lead portion of about 11.8 Deg.+/-, depending on the details of the switch angle and the lead curve, toe of frog length, etc.  So I  wonder about that 9 Deg.-31 Min.-06 Sec. quoted above.  That might be close for the lead curvature of a No. 9 turnout instead of a No. 8 (again, depending on the details).  Or, was he reading the frog angle for a No. 6 turnout instead ?  Back east here that's usually accepted as 9 Deg.-31 Min.-38 Sec. - and I would have gagged, too, if that's what he meant, because that by itself has a lead curvature of around 22.3 Deg. !  (+ 20 Deg. in the 'parent' track = 42.3 Deg. total - that's essentially inoperable !)  

- Paul North. 

[mudchicken]

PDN: ATSF Equivilent Curve based on the semi-tangent distance, the turnout lead curve (heel of switch to toe of frog) would be that sharper curve you mention. NN had a switch table from an old UP standard, no longer current. Thinks he can pick and choose whatever he wants - kinda like the old adjustable frog gag.

(ATSF would allow a 6-1/2 turnout, only if you swore your life away on my end of the railroad, industry track turnouts were always No 8 or No 10 [7, 9 & 11 in BNSF's world] )

[edblysard]

On the PTRA, we are required by rule to stop 150 feet from the bumper, dismount, stand ahead of the movement and only then are we allowed to finish the shove, which may not be spotted any closer than 50 feet from the bumper.

Considering the customers we serve, and where these idiots manage to run their supply feed and out feed pipes, that's not a bad rule to follow every time!

Last blind shove or guess shove we had that went wrong resulted in a ruptured natural gas pipeline and 2 tank cars in the ship channel, and no, they don't float, not at all.

mudchicken

edblysard:

On the inside?

Is there a soft spot for the cars to land on?

 

Yep - Might get Hulcher to relocate to there and place a big sandpile to boot. Add in replacing a switch point protector every few months.

With a number 8 turnout, that's almost a thirty degree curve ....Numbnuts, the engineer, pointed at a switch table and said that it was only a 9-31'-06", I about gagged. Do Engineering schools ever put out recall notices?

I assume my favorite switchman shoves downhill against the handbrakes on the car to a hook? How many track bumpers have been replaced at $1500 a pop? (those things the knuckle shouldn't touch!)

[zardoz]

CNW 6000

You're welcome Carl.  I had a Wookie Steak for dinner tonight.  Surely you've had one...you know, a little Chewy?  Hehe...

 

I'm not sure whether to giggle or groan....

[CShaveRR]

Happy birthday to Paula--you, you....sexegenerian, you!

And, if I hear that joke about the boatload of salad dressing going down on this date one more time...

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

edblysard

  [snipped] Last blind shove or guess shove we had that went wrong resulted in . . . 2 tank cars in the ship channel, and no, they don't float, not at all.

Too bad the "Mythbusters' weren't there !    - PDN.

[zardoz]

CShaveRR

Happy birthday to Paula--you, you....sexegenerian, you!

And, if I hear that joke about the boatload of salad dressing going down on this date one more time...

Aw, I was just about to post.......

[cherokee woman]

Carl, thank you for the birthday wish!!  So far, it has been a very, very good day.

[zardoz]

CShaveRR

And, if I hear that joke about the boatload of salad dressing going down on this date one more time...

Carl, do not, I repeat, do NOT go the 'humor' thread for a few days.

[tree68]

CShaveRR

Air Force Weather Agency at Offutt AFB!"

Once known as "Global Weather Central."

Spent about half of my USAF time in Air Weather Service, a predecessor to AFWA (the other half was either spent in schools or in an "installation" squadron, installing and removing weather equipment).

Congrats, Willy!

Just remembered, I need to buy more "Miracle Whip."

[CShaveRR]

zardoz

 

CShaveRR:

 

And, if I hear that joke about the boatload of salad dressing going down on this date one more time...

 

Carl, do not, I repeat, do NOT go the 'humor' thread for a few days.

 

 

I wonder if I could have gotten $120 million for "The Scream" I just uttered.  Do you suppose somebody egged him on?

That's it...I'm sticking with Miracle Whip!

[CNW 6000]

zardoz

CNW 6000:

You're welcome Carl.  I had a Wookie Steak for dinner tonight.  Surely you've had one...you know, a little Chewy?  Hehe...

 

 

I'm not sure whether to giggle or groan....

I'd opt for a little of both.  Especially since yesterday was "The Revenge of the Fifth"...

[mudchicken]

EdB & PDN:

Do they make coin operated pin & knuckle vending machines? and maybe a little grease & a brush dispenser to go beside it? (I sense a business oportunity if Hulcher doesn't move in pretty pronto.)

[zardoz]

CNW 6000

 

zardoz:

 

 

CNW 6000:

You're welcome Carl.  I had a Wookie Steak for dinner tonight.  Surely you've had one...you know, a little Chewy?  Hehe...

 

 

I'm not sure whether to giggle or groan....

 

 

I'd opt for a little of both.  Especially since yesterday was "The Revenge of the Fifth"...

 

Decision made: GROAN 

[rvos1979]

zardoz

 

CNW 6000:

 

zardoz:

CNW 6000:

You're welcome Carl.  I had a Wookie Steak for dinner tonight.  Surely you've had one...you know, a little Chewy?  Hehe...

I'm not sure whether to giggle or groan....

I'd opt for a little of both.  Especially since yesterday was "The Revenge of the Fifth"...

Decision made: GROAN

We will now have a moment of silence for the joke that just died......

[CShaveRR]

A little chewy must have been kinda cute...that's why I didn't nibble at him.

[zardoz]

CNW 6000

 

zardoz:

 

 

CNW 6000:

You're welcome Carl.  I had a Wookie Steak for dinner tonight.  Surely you've had one...you know, a little Chewy?  Hehe...

 

 

I'm not sure whether to giggle or groan....

 

 

I'd opt for a little of both.  Especially since yesterday was "The Revenge of the Fifth"...

 

Of course, then there's "The Return of the Sixth"....

[CShaveRR]

I don't know if anyone else knew this before (I didn't, but I haven't been here in a while):  the Rochelle Railroad Park has wi-fi.  So, greetings from under the shed!

In the 35 minutes or so that I've been here, it's been all BNSF, train-wise:  three intermodals, two westbound and one eastbound. 

UP did provide two excuses to block BNSF, though--a westbound hi-rail truck and an eastbound set of light power:  four units, the fourth of which was UP 1995--the C&NW Heritage unit!

[CShaveRR]

On the way home I made a brief Internet stop in DeKalb (got a reply to an e-mail I'd sent in Rochelle), during which three westbound trains (stack, coal, and manifest) all blew through.  Kind of nice to see a freight (the stacker) moving faster than the 50-mph limit that had been imposed in Metra territory.  And this was right through downtown DeKalb...yeeee-HAH!  (They're allowed 70, and I wouldn't have been surprised if he was doing all of that.)

[CShaveRR]

Well, you can call me "Mudturkey" today.  (No, I'm not a bigger bird than the Mudchicken, but I'm probably a lot...well, "Turkier"!)

Errands were run on the bicycle today, in spite of a forecast for scattered showers.  I thought I was being prudent when I decided to go to Wheaton instead of Elmhurst, saving a mile or so in each direction.  But somebody in Glen Ellyn must have wanted me to stay--I was caught in sudden (as in two minutes before it was sunny) showers as I attempted to leave the town in either direction.  Yes, I have the muddy stripe up my back from the rear tire.

There was plenty of railroad action along this route, which (thanks to the old CA&E roadbed, now the Illinois Prairie Path, paralleling the UP main most  of the way) kept me close to the tracks.  This was in spite of the fact that one of the tracks appeared to be out of service.  Stack trains predominated (including a well-choreographed meet in downtown Wheaton), but there were a couple of manifests as well.

Work is progressing in the vicinity of Chase Street in Wheaton, where the next set of crossovers is due to be installed.  First, though, a pedestrian tunnel is to be built under the tracks there (the grade crossing will be eliminated, but that remains a major route between Wheaton College and lots of student housing).  Pilings have been driven and some fill sand was being moved in today.  Not sure why fill sand is needed at a tunnel site, but it was being dumped on the low side of the tracks.  Perhaps the distance between tracks will be widened to current UP standards for the crossovers to be built.

[zardoz]

Carl,

Thanks to your timely dissemination of information of construction, I hereby nominate this thread to have the official subtitle of "Geneva Subdivision Triple-Track Updates".

Is there any part of the old Geneva sub (west of Western Ave) that has not been rebuilt recently?

[CShaveRR]

Actually, Jim, the stretch between Kedzie and about Maywood hasn't seen too much action since CNW tore out the Kenton Avenue Interlocking after all of the tracks were lowered for stack trains.

Some of the bigger projects haven't been begun yet.  I foresee big things for:

--Noble Street to California Avenue:  Probable relocation of Western Avenue crossing to the vicinity of Noble Street and a track swap with Metra as far as Western Avenue.

--Vale to 19th Street:  Third main track (includes new or expanded bridge over the Des Plaines River).

--Lombard:  Overpass for Great Western Trail (land now cleared), tunnel at station (this year and/or next).

--Wheaton:  Pedestrian overpass at or near passenger station.

--West Chicago (Kress) to Peck/Keslinger:  Third track, including grade separation at Roosevelt Road (has to include replacement of Randall Road overpass, the nearly-new Peck/Keslinger overpass, and a new span across the Fox River, possibly on existing piers.

--West of Elburn:  Concrete ties, Track 2 (Elburn to Rochelle), widened distance between tracks.

--Rochelle to Nelson or Clinton:  Concrete ties, both main tracks, widened distance between tracks.

--Of course, at Clinton, we'll have the new high bridge over the Mississippi River, and a new yard west of town to replace/supplant the one in town, with mainline refueling pads, etc.

Now these are just the A&B expenditures I've heard mentioned, either in connection with UP or Metra.  I'm sure there may be others, and I'm just as sure that I'll never see some of these.  My own "wish list" for desired projects contains a few more exciting things.  The concrete-tie project on the main lines was abandoned when the economy tanked, and it may never come if the projected power-plant closings happen and coal traffic dwindles.  But looking at urbanization of this whole line, I'd think that cases could be made for extensions of Metra service as far as Maple Park (still in Kane County) or, with the inclusion of DeKalb County in the Metra district, beyond to Cortland and DeKalb.  UP would, of course, require a third track to be installed for this.

What's the disclaimer here...The preceding material contains forward-looking statements that are not statements of historical fact.  Forward-looking statements speak only of, and are based only on information available on, the date the statements were made.  Forward-looking statements should not be read as a guarantee of future performance or results.  And so on.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

CShaveRR

  [snipped - PDN]  Work is progressing in the vicinity of Chase Street in Wheaton, where the next set of crossovers is due to be installed.  First, though, a pedestrian tunnel is to be built under the tracks there (the grade crossing will be eliminated, but that remains a major route between Wheaton College and lots of student housing).  Pilings have been driven and some fill sand was being moved in today.  Not sure why fill sand is needed at a tunnel site, but it was being dumped on the low side of the tracks.  Perhaps the distance between tracks will be widened to current UP standards for the crossovers to be built.

I'll speculate that probably the sand will be used for backfill of the tunnel excavation.  Likely the tunnel will be squarish precast concrete sections, and over a weekend closure or curfew of 1 or 2 tracks at a time, the hole for the tunnel will be excavated, a thin sand layer placed and leveled for the tunnel section to rest on, and then the tunnel section craned into place.  More sand will then be used to fill the spaces around the sides of the tunnel sections, and maybe a little sand on top as well to protect it and any waterproofing membrane there from the sharp points of the ballast stones above.  In such confined spaces and tight schedules, sand has the handy ability to compact quickly and easily to fill voids - it takes some effort, but not as much as anything else except concrete - yet drains well to prevent the accumulation of much water. 

- Paul North.    

[CShaveRR]

Thanks for that, Paul...the construction method makes sense, but I don't expect that the line could be closed for any length of time, even during the night (though they did a lot of work at night on the control point east of Elmhurst and the Lombard crossovers). 

Haven't seen any of the tunnel sections yet, but I will be on the lookout for them!  There are four tunnels that I know of that will be built under this line:  Bellwood station, Berkeley station, Lombard station, and this one.  Berkeley appears to be the farthest along, Lombard's hasn't been started yet.  At Bellwood and Berkeley, yard tracks could be used as a detour (it's been done in the past--I've even seen a meet between scoots on the Proviso departure tracks!), provided the powers that be allow it.

[mudchicken]

PDN:

Suspect at least one of those "Tunnels" is a Big R prefabricated structural plate arch (from talking to the Big R plant people up in Greeley recently). If so, the sand backfill and some grouting would be required.....The key will be pouring the concrete footers/ haunches atop the piling tthat the arch keys into. If they widen the tracks to fit a universal crossover, then the shoofly component needed for the structural plate arch is already there.

[jeffhergert]

CShaveRR

--Of course, at Clinton, we'll have the new high bridge over the Mississippi River, and a new yard west of town to replace/supplant the one in town, with mainline refueling pads, etc.

Carl, the talk going around for a while now says they may use a lift bridge to replace the swing bridge.  Even though they would like a fixed span bridge, they are having trouble getting the land needed to go high over the river.  Still sounds like the Low Moor yard will still be built.

I missed this month's union meeting, but last month they had a Blair subdivn construction update.  The yard office is going to move from Missouri Valley to California Jct, about 5 miles to the west.  Currently, Mo Valley is an away from home terminal for the long pools out of Clinton and North Platte, no one is based there.  The yrd office construction has been pushed back a few months, but here is the interesting tidbit.  The parking area around the yard office is planned for 300 - 500 parking spaces.  All the crews based in the OMC area wouldn't need that many spots.  Could the hand writing be on the wall for running thru Boone and Clinton?  A movable bridge at Clinton would still cause headaches during the navigation season though.  We will just have to wait and see.

Jeff  

[CShaveRR]

And, as if all of that action weren't enough, UP just cut over its new realignment of the "New Line" (Milwaukee Subdivision) around the expanded O'Hare Airport on Tuesday (May 8).  This included grade separations over Green Street, Irving Park Road, the Metra main line, and CP's Bensenville Yard.  The old line here was good for 50 m.p.h., according to the timetable; the new line may be slower, as I suspect that the curves are sharper.  It's still a double-track line, though.

Now CP has to build its own overpass over Irving Park Road, which will be two tracks immediately to the west of UP's new line.

Here's a Google map of the area--the revision is in the region north and east of the pointer for what was the main intersection in Bensenville (this still shows the new UP line under construction, and the interim alignment):  http://maps.google.com/maps?client=safari&rls=en&oe=UTF-8&q=bensenville+illinois&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=0x880fb39241e07189:0xf703c58eeeaf3ff8,Bensenville,+IL&gl=us&ei=gyqsT8PqKceUsALFvoCfAg&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=title&resnum=3&ved=0CDcQ8gEwAg

[zardoz]

CShaveRR

Here's a Google map of the area--the revision is in the region north and east of the pointer for what was the main intersection in Bensenville (this still shows the new UP line under construction, and the interim alignment):  http://maps.google.com/maps?client=safari&rls=en&oe=UTF-8&q=bensenville+illinois&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=0x880fb39241e07189:0xf703c58eeeaf3ff8,Bensenville,+IL&gl=us&ei=gyqsT8PqKceUsALFvoCfAg&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=title&resnum=3&ved=0CDcQ8gEwAg

If you look at the map and follow the UP tracks north, check out the area around Deval: there is a southbound train crossing the diamond with the single locomotive right on the Northwest sub tracks; but if you look closely, it looks like the rear-end of the train is on the ground blocking both mains just north of Deval.

[blhanel]

Are you sure he's not just traversing a crossover there?  It looks like there's a seam between pictures there- there appears to be the start of another covered hopper along with its shadow just below the MOW truck, but it vanishes into clear track.  Interesting that about halfway down the train there's an elevated diamond on a bridge over a city street.

[zardoz]

blhanel

Are you sure he's not just traversing a crossover there?  It looks like there's a seam between pictures there- there appears to be the start of another covered hopper along with its shadow just below the MOW truck, but it vanishes into clear track.  Interesting that about halfway down the train there's an elevated diamond on a bridge over a city street.

That diamond is where the CN crosses the UP/CP main (joint trackage there between Shermer (where the train to the north is waiting) and Bryn Mawr). And yes, it is directly over the road. You can see the huge platform which covers the road under the diamond.

In regards to your other observation: I do not remember a crossover there, although it has been 20 years since I rode those rails. But there is not any sign of track damage where the apparent derailment is. Although the shadows seem to maintain the angle of the "derailed" cars, the photo is not quite clear enough for me to make a good determination.

And yes, now that you mention it, I do see the seam where the hopper just fades away (kinda reminds me of the Twilight Zone episode that took place in the kids bedroom where the wall becomes a portal into another dimension).