To supplement my previous responses to the the now-locked "CSX trains: Ohio" thread at: http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/forums/t/203286.aspx?PageIndex=2
1. Try foam-rubber earplugs ?
2. Try an active noise-cancelling device - kind of like the BOSE headphones for use on airplanes, etc. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noise-cancelling_headphones , but for a bigger space - see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_noise_control "Active noise canceling is best suited for low frequencies." (i.e., train horns).
3. Build a second wall just inside the first, with the studs offset so that they're not in contact, and isolate and insulate it so that it won't resonate with the frequency of the train horns (complicated to achieve).
- Paul North.
If homes are near railroads where trains run on close headway and blow the horn, it may very well be that such homes are uninhabitable. It really depends on train frequency. People have to sleep in order to stay alive. Many will say that people should be responsible to find out ahead of time if such nuisances exist before buying.
People are not expected to find out ahead of time whether a house has water problems. It is up to the seller to disclose this and other defects.
So, I would say that if a house is represented for sale and it has a condition making it uninhabitable, anyone buying that house has been defrauded and ought to seek legal recourse.
"Is the requirement that all trains sound - - . - with a horn at all non quiet zone grade crossings obsolete? Is it still around because no one will take the responsibility for removing it? Does it really do any good?
Autos have changed since the requirement was long ago introduced. People now drive around in sealed up climate controlled autos listening to tunes and/or the radio. Do they actually hear the horn when approaching a crossing? What would be the actual change in train-auto collisions if the trains didn't sound the horn at crossings protected with lights and gates?
I think it's time to get answers to these questions instead of mindlessly continuing a requirement that was established a long time ago."
I think Ken (greyhounds) brought up a good point. There are alternatives to the still required sounding of horns which are used successfully and others used abroad as Sir Madoq mentioned.
1. Grade separations. Advantages: no noise and zero grade crossing accidents. Dis: Very expensive.
2. Crossing eliminations. Ads: No horn or accidents. Dis: Inconvenient.
3. Stationary horn at crossing: Ads: less noise. Dis: Expensive.
4. No-horn gated crossings where the crossing is protected from cars running around through a median. Ads: No noise and much cheaper than grade separations or the stationary horn. Dis: Probably none.
5. Quieter train horns as mentioned around Hamburg in Germany. Ads: More quiet. Dis: Never tried here, possibly more accidents.
6. Elimination of auditory warnings altogether for reasons Ken stated.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Whenever we try to 'idiot proof' something - the only thing the really occurs is to create super idiots who raise idiocy to the next level.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
schlimm 4. No-horn gated crossings where the crossing is protected from cars running around through a median.
4. No-horn gated crossings where the crossing is protected from cars running around through a median.
This solves the problem. No horn noise. No crashes. It's easy.
schlimm4. No-horn gated crossings where the crossing is protected from cars running around through a median. Ads: No noise and much cheaper than grade separations or the stationary horn. Dis: Probably none.
Actually, cost is a very significant disadvantage for this option. If it weren't, virtually every crossing capable of having such protection installed would probably already have it.
In some areas, such a median barrier would also interrupt access to some trackside businesses whose driveways are right next to the crossing.
The thing is, major highways are probably just as bad. I stayed at a hotel in Greensboro, NC that was very close to I-40/I-85. I'd rate that noise as barely tolerable. Didn't stay there the next time we went.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
There are horns at the non-median gated crossings and no horns at the median gated crossings. There are crashes at the non-median gated crossings and no crashes at the median gated crossings.
But where is the evidence that eliminating horns at the non-median crossings would increase crashes there? It is the median that obviously makes the difference in crash occurrence.
Greyounds makes a good point in the locked thread when he asks what good train horns do. Just because you sound a warning and there are crashes does not necessarily mean that more crashes would occur if you did not sound the warning. Train horns are an artifact from the days when whistles were the only form of warning. Now we have flashing lights, gates, and bells.
I would submit that 99% of crashes result from people trying to beat the train. If they were not trying to beat the train, they would run through the gate rather than around it. It is widely recognized that median crossings with gates nearly eliminate crashes. That would not be the case if the eliminated crashes were caused by driver inattention. The crashes are caused by drivers running around the gate, and the median prevents running around the gate.
What could possibly be the circumstances where a driver could not see the flashing lights and gates, so therefore needed an auditory warning? You have to be able to see in order to drive. You don’t have to be able to hear to drive.
A lot of the problem may be mental. Think about it (heh). Lots of people live near highways, airports and railways. They probably wouldn't even notice the trains unless someone said something. Works the other way, I'm sure. If you think that you will NEVER be able to get a night's sleep because of the trains - then you probably never will, no matter how quiet you make it.
The brain is a powerful thing.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
Regarding methods of noise suppression at railroad crossings, I wonder how do they do it in Britain? How about on the Continent?
In an earlier thread about the lack of headlights on British locomotives, we learned they are regarded there as superfluous, since the right of way is always fenced. It seems to me that they probably have addressed this problem of road crossings in a typically understated way. Britain is a crowded country (in many regions) and noise would have to be a big consideration.
Does anyone here know about horns/whistles at British road crossings? Anything we can learn from them?
Another thought: Why not changed the traditional long-long-short-long blast to just one? Right there you can fix 3/4 of the problem.
Lastly, what's more cost-effective? Building a bridge over or under the tracks, or establishing no-noise zones (did someone say in the other thread that this could cost $10 million?)? And wouldn't more bridges be so much safer and lead to fewer lawsuits, maybe even lower car insurance rates (over-all)?
Sure, we could all pay more attention at crossings, but it's already difficult enough to drive and text. lol
NKP guy Another thought: Why not changed the traditional long-long-short-long blast to just one? Right there you can fix 3/4 of the problem. Good luck getting that changed.
Good luck getting that changed.
From 1987 to 2003 I lived in Downers Grove, IL. Over 100 trains per day went through. Some of them at 60-65 MPH. They did not sound their horns. Even before there was such a thing as an "FRA sanctioned 'Quite Zone'", they did not use the horns. It seemed to work.
Were there train/auto collisions? Yes there were. Would blowing the horn have prevented even one of the collisions? We don't know. Does blowing the horns do anything other than anoy the railroad's neighbors? We don't know. All the crossings had lights, gates and bells.
If flashing red lights and a gate down in front of a driver don't get him/her to stop, what good will the horn do? I am not saying we should do away with the --.-. I'm saying we need some research on wether it does anything other than anoy the neighbors.
People drive around the gates because they don't want to wait for the train to pass. Honking isn't going to make them any more patient.
I now live in Antioch, IL. We have an official "Quite Zone". Some of the grade crossings have medians and some don't have medians. Again, research into the effectiveness of the requirement for medians is needed.
The technology exists to provide quiet interiors in houses adjacent to active diesel reailroad tracks. Much of this technology was defeloped with government support to insure quiet in homes near active runways of airports, particularly with the introduction of the then noisier jet airplanes.
Anyone wanting specific construction details can contact me at daveklepper@yahoo.com
It would be best for homeowners to understand their surroundings BEFORE purchasing their home. That's basic commonsense 101. Check the proximity of rail lines, highways, airports and factories. A friend of mine owns a home under "final approach" at Pearson Airport in Toronto. He says that on some days it feel like the planes are actually coming through his house, and the noise is deafening. It's not something you can ever get used to.
Don't rely on the real estate agent to tell you that...he/she is trying to SELL a house, and many don't consider lies of omission lies at all.
Eastbound Capitol Limited collected a vehicle at Maple Ridge, OH - about 15 miles East of Rootstown.
One thing to keep in mind is that humans get used to things over time, sometimes sooner sometimes later. When you first move to a house by the tracks you'll probably be up alot at first, but after awhile you won't even wake up when a train rumbles by blaring its horn!
Case in point: Sleep over at a friend's house next to the tracks near a grade-crossing. They've lived there for years. Conversation in the morning goes something like this:
"Boy! Did you hear all the trains last night! I counted at least 10 of them! They're so obnoxiously loud I was up practically all night! How can you live like this!?!"
Response: "What trains? I didn't hear anything. Slept like a log- we're so used to it I suppose we don't even hear it anymore!"
I guess some things just take a little time...
Ha ha...there's a nice motel on the Trans Canada Highway in New Brunswick (Canada)... I stayed there one night not knowing that the CN mainline pretty much passes behind the motel only a few feet away. Well... at about 2:00 am the train came through... the engineer blew for the crossing (also only about 30 feet from the motel.. and man was THAT LOUD!!! Imagine sleeping peacefully..and then suddenly a train horn from no more than 50 feet away... THe whole place shook like an earthquake, and the locomotive headlight made it seem like a daylight..
greyhound's question on the effectiveness of horns for crossing warning warrants some empirical study to get a more scientific conclusion than just pure speculation or without a factual basis concluding that it must be true b/c they've been used for years and therefore people must put up with them.
schlimm greyhound's question on the effectiveness of horns for crossing warning warrants some empirical study to get a more scientific conclusion than just pure speculation or without a factual basis concluding that it must be true b/c they've been used for years and therefore people must put up with them.
There was some pretty compelling evidence on the FEC from a few years back (perhaps 15 years ago?). Many towns outlawed blowing for crossings. The death rate went way up. The FRA stepped in and created a rule that pre-empted the local laws. They followed that up with the current quiet-zone regulation.
Some info here: http://cnie.org/NLE/CRSreports/07May/RL33286.pdf
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
In the minds of many drivers, the train horn shouts a warning of the possibility of an insufferable delay. The horn tells these drivers to hurry up.
It would be interesting to see the statistics on how many gated crossing crashes have occurred when the driver crashed through the gates, versus when the driver ran around the gate. The horn would not have helped prevent the latter. That would help determine what horns contribute to crash prevention.
It may very well be that there is no evidence whatsoever that horns contribute to crash reduction at gated crossings.
This is particularly interesting because the authorities seem convinced that eliminating the horn must be compensated for by eliminating the ability to run around the gate as if there were some relationship between the two. Yet, there is no connection between the two.
They should keep the horns...they aren't that annoying. Maybe they should also modify the front of the locomotive so that any car or light truck is deflected cleanly sideways on impact..i.e. not shoved along the tracks or under the locomotive. At least then the occupants of the car would have a fighting chance even if they did just try to win a Darwin.
I was thinking more of an analog experimental study along with correlational studies.
Bucyrus In the minds of many drivers, the train horn shouts a warning of the possibility of an insufferable delay. The horn tells these drivers to hurry up.
Is this idea from a study that has been done, or just your opinion?
An "expensive model collector"
You could put an airbag on the front of a locomotive and it would not make a difference. When something that weighs 15,000 tons hits you at 50 mph the odd are always stacked against the driver. Some are lucky enough to survive but most dont. The ones that do survive always end up suing the railroad. It's a screwed up world we live in when an idiot can go around the gates get hit and win a stack of money. They should be locked up for being stupid.
n012944 Bucyrus: In the minds of many drivers, the train horn shouts a warning of the possibility of an insufferable delay. The horn tells these drivers to hurry up. Is this idea from a study that has been done, or just your opinion?
Bucyrus: In the minds of many drivers, the train horn shouts a warning of the possibility of an insufferable delay. The horn tells these drivers to hurry up.
It is my belief based on my observations and discussions with people close to the problem. I have not seen a study on it. It would be interesting to conduct one.
Erect large orange diamond "stupid zone"signs within 500 feet of every at-grade crossing, show blanket stupid zone easements on all land transactions and plats. The same goes for flood zones, fire prone areas, airport runway landing approaches and so on....Stupid people gotta live somewhere, but the railroads and the other taxpayers should not have to pay for getting knucklheads out of dutch. Inhabitants of the stupid zones can pay for the signs too!
http://www.upstateforever.org/progSCdocs/AllAboutStupidZones.pdf
ps - It's not noise, it's local "ambiance"
Apparently, it's some kind of FRA crossing safety index. You can take away the horns but then you loose the horn index value. The lost "Value" must be replaced. (I'd like to see how they determined the index values.)
http://www.rtd-fastracks.com/media/uploads/gl/Fact_Sheet_2_Quiet_Zone_Fact_Sheet.pdf
Ulrich They should keep the horns...they aren't that annoying.
They should keep the horns...they aren't that annoying.
I live about 1/2 mile from both the CP C&M subdivision (20+/day) and the UP MIlwaukee sub (8+/day), plus only 1/10 mile from the UP Farm sub (4+/day), and I can tell you that on a summer evening with the windows open, the horns are quite noticeable (if I wasn't a FRN, then I would have used the adjective irritating).
That's ok if you don't open the windows. If I remember correctly Los Angeles International Airport (LAX) had to raze a number of homes near the airport which were not located near active runways because the area was too noisy.. Then again sounding horns at grade crossings isn't the only cause of a noisy environment near railroad tracks. You don't necessarily have to live near a grade crossing to be bothered by noisy trains. Sources of noise near railroad tracks include diesel locomotive exhaust and wheel-rail interaction.
The FRA wants medians in to prevent drivers from trying to beat the train in exchange for eliminating the horn blowing. Yet horn blowing does nothing to prevent drivers from trying to beat the train. So what is the point of requiring medians in exchange for no horn blowing?
What horn blowing does is wake up drivers who are sleeping, impaired, or distracted, and who are about to drive through the lowered gate and past the flashing lights because they are not aware of them. Yet adding medians does nothing to help with this problem.
Bucyrus The FRA wants medians in to prevent drivers from trying to beat the train in exchange for eliminating the horn blowing. Yet horn blowing does nothing to prevent drivers from trying to beat the train. So what is the point of requiring medians in exchange for no horn blowing? What horn blowing does is wake up drivers who are sleeping, impaired, or distracted, and who are about to drive through the lowered gate and past the flashing lights because they are not aware of them. Yet adding medians does nothing to help with this problem.
Again - source, or is this just your opinion?
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