I read the article and wasn't convinced with the authors conclusions. I thought railroaders all timed their distances to figure out their speed back in the day...that is why the seconds=mph charts were listed in the timetables.
Maybe Hankey can clear up how the Egyptians built the pyramids next.
My train videos - http://www.youtube.com/user/karldotcom
I will take the Sante Fe story at face value. True there was no third party verificaiton, but the speed was determined by times between specific mile posts, and there isn't any reason to doubt that the people in the cab were honest.
About the idea that the locomotive was not capable of such speed,: This might be true for a continuous basis, but any steam locomotive can exceed its rated firebox-boiler hoursepower capabilities for a few minutes, and that is all that it would take. Possibly there was a slight downgrade to help. Possibly the safety valve was set a few PSI above the 220 rating, and the actual boiler pressure might have been 223 or 224.
I would credit the Sante Fe BEFORE crediting the PRR and NYC records, which may be more doubtful.
But I don't doubt the T-1 performance. I wonder what those passengers in those not particularly well-sprung P-70 coaches were thinking!
"Railroad Folk Lore (?)" Stories iof incredible speed(?)
In College I did a paper on Raymond Loewy ( One statemet that really stood out had appeared on a Loewy Site: It was a repetition of his comments while standing on the Platform of an Ohio RR Station when the S-1 passed by with a Passenger train, and his description of the ground shaking, the noise, and the wind generated by its passage.
Linked below: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRR_S1
FTL:"...Alleged speed records
"...It was hoped that the locomotive could haul 1,000 tons at 100 miles per hour, but this goal was not reached. While an article "Riding the Gargantua of the Rails" in the Dec. 1941 Popular Mechanics Magazine cites a speed of 133.4 miles an hour, there are apocryphal stories of the S1 reaching or exceeding 140 miles per hour, but there is no documentation of these and it is considered unlikely by experts.[7]
Its high speed capability was such that some have claimed the S1 may have even exceeded the 126 mph (203 km/h) record steam locomotive speed set in 1938 by the LNER locomotive Mallard. The locomotive was also rumoured to have operated at speeds exceeding 156 mph on the Fort Wayne-Chicago Railroad, as it was rumoured that the PRR received a fine posted by an interlocking tower on the division, proving the claim. However, it appears that no verifiable records are available to authenticate the claims.[7].."
And this site as well: http://www.crestlineprr.com/duplexexperimentals.html#s1
The PRR Crestline (Ohio) Engine Facility.
The there was the Story of the Speed Run of the CB&Q RR Zeypher from Denver to Chicago. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_Zephyr
FTL:"...On May 26, 1934, it set a speed record for travel between Denver, Colorado, and Chicago, Illinois, when it made a 1,015-mile (1,633 km) non-stop "Dawn-to-Dusk" dash in 13 hours 5 minutes at an average speed of 77 mph (124 km/h). For one section of the run it reached a speed of 112.5 mph (181 km/h), just short of the then US land speed record of 115 mph (185 km/h). The historic dash inspired a 1934 film and the train's nickname, "Silver Streak".[1][2][3][4]
Speed Records(?) You bet, but for the instant, legends in the minds of those observers and crews who were there. Many American records are suspect as the documentation wether "Official" or not, is mostly lacking.
The Europeans when the go after a record seem to do it right, they have it verified by documentation and observation with specific metrics for 'the Records' by Official Time and Record Keeping Organizations. Not so much so in the USA, It is an opportunity of circumstances and the individuals involved.
Onbe incident that was 'done right was the run of the NYC RR's M-497
http://jalopnik.com/359202/new-york-centrals-m+497-jet-powered-train
FTL:"...The build came in the form of a US Air Force surplus General Electric J47-19 jet engines in a B36-H bomber engine pod planted on the roof of a modified Budd commuter car with a custom made, fitted cowling. On a high speed test run between in 1966 between Butler, IN and Stryker, OH, the M-497 reached a top speed of 183.681mph-- still the current high speed record for light rail in the United States. With the rails proven capable of high speed transit, the experimental was dismantled and the M497 returned to civilian duty as an NYC commuter car, running the route between Poughkeepsie and Harmon for Metro North where it live until its sale to Conrail in May 1976. In an undignified end, the car was cannibalized for parts in Dec. 1977 and scrapped by Metro-North in 1984..."
[Copied the following Tale which was posted as noted by locoi1sa ( to whom I am grateful! This sort of rests my case about Speed and Rumors of those runs...] linked to MR Forum: http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/forums/t/203538.aspx
A good read for steam heads..................... A Pennsylvania Railroad Class T1. LAST CHANCE for a Pennsylvania Railroad Class T1 By John R. Crosby Early in 1948, Pennsylvania Railroad (PRR) President Martin W. Clement announced that "by May of this year we expect all our important east-west passenger trains will be diesel-electric powered west of Harrisburg." True to his word, hordes of pin-striped diesels began to arrive from La Grange, Eddystone, Erie, and any other place that could slap together a diesel locomotive. It seems that the Pennsy, in its rush to dieselize, bought them all. With the arrival of the new power, it was not long before the Pennsy's T1 Locomotives, then only three or so years old were relegated to pulling secondary trains. I was firing such a run between Fort Wayne, Indiana and Crestline, Ohio, and return. Even our unglamorous trains, many bereft of names, now regularly sported diesels on the head end. The best evidence of this was the way passenger engine crews dressed for work. Most of us had discarded our work shirts, overalls, and bandanas in favor of slacks and sport shirts. Some of the old-timers persisted in wearing their Oshkosh or Carhartt overalls, but they were looked down upon as hopeless fossils by we of the younger crowd. While I had joined the slacks and shirt crowd, in the bottom of my grip I still carried a pair of goggles and gauntlet gloves. On the day in question, my engineer and I were awaiting the arrival of No. 43. The train was due into Crestline at 2:25 p.m., and was a typical secondary train of that era. The normal consist was about 14 cars of storage mail, Railway Express, and Railway Post office cars, a combination car and two coaches. The train originated in Pitts burgh and wound up in Chicago, making stops every 25 miles of so. On this run, the only significant revenue was produced on the head end, not in the coaches. About 1:45 p.m. we received word that number 43 was running some 45 minutes late, and was steam powered. We were being assigned a class T1, and would we kindly get ourselves on the No. 5536. Reluctantly we walked out of the roundhouse and searched for our engine. Way over on a back ready track we found it. What a pitiful sight! The engine and tender were coated with thick layers of grime and soot. At any place where steam was discharged, either by design or accident, streaks of gray dripped downward. Someone had cleaned off the numbers on the side of the cab. This had been done in such a fashion that each number looked as though it was in an oval frame. To verify ownership, the flanks of the tender proudly displayed the letters PENNSY. The LVANIA was totally covered by dirt. The rubber diaphragm between the cab and tender was in shreds or missing. On the engine, various inspection covers were missing, giving it a curiously hollow appearance. The casing around the stacks was gone and they showed up quite clearly. I had anticipated the cab would not be very clean so I scrounged up a large ball of cotton waste. Climbing up into the cab confirmed my suspicions that it was a filthy mess. About the only clean spot was the engineer's seat where the hostler had sat while coaling up the tender. Harry, my engineer, using the privileges of seniority, remained on the ground and hollered up to me to get him a long oil can. I handed him one and began to get busy with my cleaning. It was quite evident that this engine had been sitting around for some time with the cab windows open to the elements and whatever dirt happened to be in the area. I turned on the injector, then the squirt hose, and tried to wash down all the dirt that I could dislodge with water. While I did achieve some degree of success, there was still a lot of dirt in the cab as harry climbed up the ladder. He was very careful not to touch any place I happened to miss in my cleaning operation. He spent a few minutes wiping off his seat, and the various valves and levers he would be operating. Satisfied with his efforts, he sat down and began testing the air brakes, whistle, bell, water pump, etc. While he was busy with his chores I got the fire ready. Surprisingly, considering how long the engine had been sitting around, the fire was in fairly good shape. It did not require much to get it to my liking. We were now ready to back down to the station. Harry turned on the bell, gave three short blasts on the whistle, opened the cylinder cocks, then cracked open the throttle. We started to back up, blowing out large amounts of water through the open cylinder cocks. At Riley Street I saw that the dwarf signal governing our movement off the ready track to the running track was displaying "restricting," allowing us to continue our reverse move. We continued to back eastward until stopped by the signal guarding access to the mainline. We sat here for some time until we heard the unmistakable sound of a Pennsylvania chime whistle. No. 43 was finally in town. A few minutes later, a pair of bedraggled K4's slipped by on their way to the roundhouse. As soon as they cleared the interlocking, I could see the switch points flop over for our movement; this was followed by the signal changing from "stop" to "restricting." I called the aspect to Harry and we backed down to the train, rumbling across the tracks of the Big Four's Cleveland to Columbus mainline. As we coupled onto the train, I noted that our conductor was standing on the platform with a clearance card stating that No. 43 had no train orders. He also let us know that today we had a total of 15 cars, all heavyweight. It was quite obvious that his major concern was that of maintaining as much distance as possible between himself and the filthy locomotive. The car inspectors coupled the air and signal hoses, and then the steam heat connectors. Harry ran the air test while I fed coal to the fire. At 3:40 p.m., 1 our and 15 minutes late, the communicating whistle peeped twice and we were finally on our way. Harry turned on the bell, opened the sanders, and gently pulled on the throttle. With a T1, you did not yank open the throttle unless you waned the engine to slip, sand or no sand. We slowly began to move, again rumbling over the Big Four diamonds (Cleveland, Cincinnati, Chicago & St. Louis Railway or CCC&StL which became the New York Central). At about 20 mph, Harry made a running brake test. He released the brakes and opened the throttle a bit more. We had a 4-mph speed restriction around an "S" curve through the yard. Once clear of it, Harry got down to business and the tired old 5536 began to accelerate just as its designers had intended. [Keep it mind the T1s had rotary cam poppet valves]. In spite of its cruddy appearance, this engine was still in good mechanical condition. As the speed increased, so did the flow of cinders, grime sand and dust, and other debris into and out of the cab. Evidently, there were some nooks that I had overlooked in my cleaning efforts. It was indeed fortunate that I still had my goggles available. While our eyes are protected from the flying dirt, I cannot say the same for our slacks and sport shirts. Bucyrus was our first stop, only 12 minutes west of Crestline. We drove into the station in a cloud of sand and dust, and blue brakeshoe smoke. After a few minutes, during which mail, express and a few passengers had either been unloaded or loaded, we started another dash to Upper Sandusky, Ohio, all of 18 miles farther west. This was followed by stops at Ada and Lima. During the Lima stop, we filled the tender to its 19,000-gallon capacity. The farther west we went, the better the T1 performed. Our speed easily passed 90 several times. Now, before anyone reading this gets excited about the speed mentioned, and cites the fact that the legal speed limit for passenger trains on the Fort Wayne division was 79 mph, let me quote the road foreman at the time, on James A. (Pappy) Warren: "If you can't make up time without worrying about the speed limit, I'll get someone who can." Our last scheduled stop was in Van Wert, Ohio. Again, Harry drove into the station, making a precise spot so that the various mail and express carts did not have to move far to find an open door. He called me over to his side of the cab and said, "Johnny, this may be our last chance at one of these beasts. What do you say about seeing just what she'll do between here and Fort Wayne?" As he spoke, I noted that his face was completely covered with dirt, except for the two white circles behind his glasses. My deferential reply was, "You're the boss. My side of the cab is still attached to yours." He nodded in reply to my answer, and issued a warning. "You'd better get your fire ready, 'cause we're going to move out of here." With this bit of information, I began to work on my fire. I grabbed the No. 5 scoop shovel and filled the back corners of the firebox. I shut off the stoker jets and ran a big ward of coal into the firebox, right in front of the firebox doors. When finished, I felt satisfied that I was ready for what was to come. With the first peep of the communicating whistle, Harry turned on the bell and sanders. A second later came the second peep. He cautiously opened the throttle. The first six or so exhausts were relatively gentle "chuffs" as we began to move. One of the exhaust blew a perfect smoke ring. When Harry was satisfied that we had a good supply of sand under the drivers, he pulled open the throttle a little farther. Until then, the sounds of the exhaust had been drowned out by the sound of the whistle, but no more. The exhaust began to snap and crack out of the twin stacks. The presence of nearby warehouses and lumber yards created a pronounced echo effect so that each exhaust was multiplied as it bounced back and forth from building to building. This was the ultimate in stereo. With the heavy throttle, the engine began to rock slightly from side to side. We rounded the curve at Estry Tower, and now between us and Fort Wayne lay 31 miles of perfectly straight track. As soon as we cleared the Cincinnati Northern diamond, Harry pulled the throttle wide open. The engine began to quiver, and it was easy to note the acceleration. With a good supply of sand, there was not a hint of a slip, although I did note that Harry kept his hand on the throttle in anticipation of such an event. As the speed built up, he began to move the reverse lever from the corner up towards center, in effect shifting from low to high gear. The busy U.S. 30 crossing slipped by with the speedometer showing 78 mph. Soon the needle showed 86. In spite of the large demand for steam, I had no problem maintaining 300 pounds of steam pressure. This was not necessarily due to my prowess as a fireman, but rather to the fact that the engine was a free steamer. I cracked open the firedoors to check the fire. I was satisfied to note that its color was bright yellow-white. The coal that I had put into the back corners and in front of the fire door was long gone. Dixon is the location of a cast-iron post indicating Ohio on one side and Indiana on the other. We did not have much time for reading as we were now running at 96 mph. Harry had now moved the reverse lever to within just a few points of being vertical. He was kept busy blowing for road crossings. At our speed, there was not too much time from the passing of a whistle post until the crossing showed up. We bounced straight through the Monroeville crossovers at 108 mph, with the needle still unwinding. West of town we hit 110. The "T" still had reserve left. The only problem we had was with dirt and soot. This was compounded by coal dust from the tender. At Maples the speedometer needle quit moving. We were now covering a mile in 30 seconds - 120 mph! We blazed by Adams Tower with the engine and tender each trying to go their separate ways as they passed over the crossovers and siding switches. The tower operator beat a hasty retreat as the breeze we created tried to blow him over. Clearing the interlocking, Harry applied the brakes and pulled our speed down to a more respectable 80. We slipped into town, stopping at the coal dock for a load of coal. With the tender full, we made our final dash of a mile to the Fort Wayne station. Arriving there, we got off and headed downstairs to the crew room. The passenger crew dispatcher, Chet Glant, met Harry as he turned in his timeslip. "Harry, the dispatcher wants to talk to you upstairs." So without cleaning ourselves, we both went up to the dispatcher's office. The dispatcher eyeballed us, shaking his head in wonder. Somewhat sarcastically he asked, "Which one of you two clowns has a pilot's license?" He paused for dramatic effect and continued, "You guys were certainly flying low today. According to your timing by Estry and Adams, it took you only 17 minutes to cover 27miles. Now my math is nothing to brag about, but that averages out to something like 95 miles per hour, and that from a station stop." Neither of us offered any comment. He looked at us for a few moments and closed with the admonition, "Don't do this again." As we walked out he grinned and added, Good job, guys." The did turn out to be my last trip on a T1. With the proliferation of diesels on passenger trains, there was little call for maintaining much of an extra passenger board. About the only business was that of pulling dead, or nearly dead, Baldwin diesels. So when the engineers' board was cut, I wound up back on freight with Q2's (4-4-6-4), J1's (2-10-4) and F3's. But that is another story.
But the goal was not scientific measurments of speed but rather the hype and PR and bragging ability, the sensationlism.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
I would submit that the 106.1 MPH was incidental to the trip, not a planned part of it.
The stated goal was 44 hours to Chicago. That simply required the average 50-ish speeds they attained.
I wouldn't be surprised if the "record" wasn't an ad hoc effort by the crew at the moment.
"How's she running?"
"Pretty good!"
"There's a good stretch of track up ahead, let's see what she'll do!"
"Let's get her primed!"
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Having read the article and everyone's posts, I beleive that ATSF dropped the ball by not having some independant third party, perhaps someone from the American Society of Mechanical Engineers to be in charge of the speed measurement and record keeping. That person or persons would have published a paper telling exactly what they did , what equipment they used and what data they measured. Such an academic treatment of this experiment would have put to rest any questions about what actually happened. The article stated that Mr. Scott rushed everyone invloved into this trip for no good reason that I can find. I have to wonder why a big company like ATSF would allowed this to happen and why someone with them did not take the time necessary for a good and complete execution of this experiment.
George
jpwoodruffFor myself, I know something about physics and a lot less aboutrailroads. None of these arguments is presented in enough detail tojudge whether the physics is right. There may well be data to supportthe conclusion, however as of now it's an argument on authority.John
Yes, the claimed debunking sounds like a bad case of sour grapes to me.
I wish I could find my old issue of Trains that covered this Death Valley Scotty run in a tone of admiration for the speed record and the performance of the AT&SF. It would sure draw a distinction between the magazine editorial attitude under DPM versus Trains magazine of today.
And about as many crew changes, too, I believe ! About 2-1/2 hrs. on duty for each, on average.
Unfortunately, that aspect wasn't much different by the time of the SuperC express intermodal train in the late 1960's - early 1970's. Wonder what it is now - 6 or 8 or so crews, probably.
- Paul North.
[sarcasm]
It is my belief that the world is flat - To confirm my conclusions I talked with the Pope that excommunicated Galileo ..... he confirmed my beliefs and presented his science of the age to prove it....
[/sarcasm]
History is full of myths and falsehoods that have been proven incorrect by modern methods - yet we still refer to them as a part of the fabric of society.
I am more amazed by the fact that there were 19 engine changes within the elapsed time of the run.
jpwoodruff "To confirm my conclusions, I talked with Bill Withuhn. He recentlyretired as the Smithsonian's curator of transportation and is anexperienced steam locomotive engineer. His forthcoming book will bethe definitive history of modern steam locomotives. Years ago he rancalculations to determine the power output of New York Central's4-4-0 No. 999 (whose wishful 112.5-mph pace achieved in 1893 had beendiscredited within a decade) as well as Pennsylvania 4-4-2 No. 7002(the engine unofficially credited with going 127 mph in 1905).
"To confirm my conclusions, I talked with Bill Withuhn. He recentlyretired as the Smithsonian's curator of transportation and is anexperienced steam locomotive engineer. His forthcoming book will bethe definitive history of modern steam locomotives. Years ago he rancalculations to determine the power output of New York Central's4-4-0 No. 999 (whose wishful 112.5-mph pace achieved in 1893 had beendiscredited within a decade) as well as Pennsylvania 4-4-2 No. 7002(the engine unofficially credited with going 127 mph in 1905).
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Near the end of the 11-paragraph sidebar, Hankey writes "None <of theparameters he lists> would have permitted a top speed of 106 mph ..." Immediately after that are the two paragraphs dealing with Withun'sanalysis of steam capability:"To confirm my conclusions, I talked with Bill Withuhn. He recentlyretired as the Smithsonian's curator of transportation and is anexperienced steam locomotive engineer. His forthcoming book will bethe definitive history of modern steam locomotives. Years ago he rancalculations to determine the power output of New York Central's4-4-0 No. 999 (whose wishful 112.5-mph pace achieved in 1893 had beendiscredited within a decade) as well as Pennsylvania 4-4-2 No. 7002(the engine unofficially credited with going 127 mph in 1905)."In his opinion, neither locomotive - and certainly not Santa FeNo. 510 - could have generated the boiler output or cylinderhorsepower needed to accelerate their trains past 80 or 90 mph underideal conditions. Furthermore, it is hard to imagine that a firemancould shovel enough coal into No.510's firebox quickly enough toachieve such an extreme speed as 106 mph. The boiler couldn't havemade steam quickly enough, in the volume required, at a high enoughtemperature to propel those 349 tons much past 90 mph. It's a matterof energy inputs and mechanical outcomes."For myself, I know something about physics and a lot less aboutrailroads. None of these arguments is presented in enough detail tojudge whether the physics is right. There may well be data to supportthe conclusion, however as of now it's an argument on authority.John
overall A stupid question, but, did not the operators along the railroad record the time the train paased on a train sheet? Isn't it a crime to falsify that? George
A stupid question, but, did not the operators along the railroad record the time the train paased on a train sheet? Isn't it a crime to falsify that?
Yes. And yes. But since, unike European roads where trains are timed at the quarters and half minute marks as well as the full minute, American roads have always used the nearest full minute or within the minute as deemed neccessary. Thus a train could go by station A at 1:01:00 and B station at 1:02:30 and be OS's a minute apart while it actually was a minute and a half. In one mile that could be the difference between 60 mph and 40mph. I am sure with Death Valley Scotty and the ego's of the Sante Fe employees and managers, the best time was put forward, even through fudge.
As a 'debunking' article, I found it very ironic that it was placed in the magazine just prior to the one about the three railroaders that went down with the Titanic - the single event that took the bloom off the rose of that ages perception of mechanical infallibility.
tree68 With regard to the locomotive in question not being capable - one point made in his piece was that "the fireman" would not be able to keep up with the demands for steam. It was also pointed out that the locomotive wasn't really capable of generating that much steam. The accounts of the trip indicate that there were other railroad officials in the cab. It's not beyond possibility that the locomotive entered the ersatz "speed trap" with a roaring fire in the firebox, a boiler topped off with water, the pops lifting, and several people with scoops in hand, ready to feed the fire. These folks lived steam and would have understood how to do it. It clearly would have taken a concerted effort by all involved to pull it off, and there were dangerous implications if something went wrong, but it's still possible they accomplished the feat. I'd opine that by the time they got to the end of their brief effort that the fire was less than optimum and steam pressure was down. The 106 MPH may not have sustainable for any significant distance, but it was likely possible for the short distance (2.8 miles) they claimed they achieved it. And, oh, by the way, the entire time elapsed at 106 MPH would have been all of 95 seconds...
With regard to the locomotive in question not being capable - one point made in his piece was that "the fireman" would not be able to keep up with the demands for steam.
It was also pointed out that the locomotive wasn't really capable of generating that much steam.
The accounts of the trip indicate that there were other railroad officials in the cab. It's not beyond possibility that the locomotive entered the ersatz "speed trap" with a roaring fire in the firebox, a boiler topped off with water, the pops lifting, and several people with scoops in hand, ready to feed the fire. These folks lived steam and would have understood how to do it.
It clearly would have taken a concerted effort by all involved to pull it off, and there were dangerous implications if something went wrong, but it's still possible they accomplished the feat. I'd opine that by the time they got to the end of their brief effort that the fire was less than optimum and steam pressure was down. The 106 MPH may not have sustainable for any significant distance, but it was likely possible for the short distance (2.8 miles) they claimed they achieved it.
And, oh, by the way, the entire time elapsed at 106 MPH would have been all of 95 seconds...
Johnny
BaltACD Finally got the opportunity to read the article - My observation, Mr. Hankey wanted to do everything possible to shoot down the 'aura' that has been created by this run over the past 100 years. I am not saying that Mr. Hankey was lying about anything he stated, however, the manner in which things were stated were couched to provide the worst possible picture of Death Valley Scotty and anything he touched.
Finally got the opportunity to read the article - My observation, Mr. Hankey wanted to do everything possible to shoot down the 'aura' that has been created by this run over the past 100 years. I am not saying that Mr. Hankey was lying about anything he stated, however, the manner in which things were stated were couched to provide the worst possible picture of Death Valley Scotty and anything he touched.
Death Valley Scotty was maybe as colorful and entertaining as any character associated with (the latter days of) the Old West.
His personal monument at Death Valley National Park, that castle, is a wonder to see.
But his reputation as self-promoting phony is also well-earned. If he told the complete truth about anything, THAT was news.
CSSHEGEWISCHEven with a watch with a sweep second hand or a stopwatch, a lot of potential errors can creep into the timing.
Yes, it is quite possible that the speed may have been significantly higher than 106 mph. My guess is that they got up to 110 mph. A lot of times those old watches ran too slow.
Even with a watch with a sweep second hand or a stopwatch, a lot of potential errors can creep into the timing. Since a stopwatch of that period was started and stopped by hand, a timing can be started or stopped at the wrong place and even a one second error will cause a variance of about 3 MPH in that speed range and the variances get larger as the speed claims get higher. Any claimed timings made by hand must be taken with a grain of salt.
jpwoodruff,
Thanks for that information. I have not seen the article yet, so I can only go by what I am told about it.
Regarding your details about the article:
Well sure, if the time were measured wrong, the speed would be wrong. But just the possibility of error or fraud is not at all evidence that it actually happened. Railroaders knew their stuff back in those days when it came to timekeeping and fast running.
Just the fact that this event was staged by a railroad company ought to lend substantial credibility to the speed claims. They published a clear and comprehensive record of this run in a timetable format with station points, mileage, and times, along with calculations of maximum speeds reached in many specific locations. This speed clocking hardly seems like a mere amateur production by spectators here and there who happened to have watches.
Interestingly, the ATSF did not permit their enginemen to simply run the fastest speed possible on this run. They told them they could exceed the limit, but only within a safe margin, depending on conditions and location.
I have to wonder what the technical foundation is for an opinion that the #510 could not have accelerated its train past 80-90 mph. Are you saying that it is only one man’s opinion? Does Mr. Hankey not provide a formal engineering analysis and calculation showing the weight of the train, horsepower, condition of the track, wind direction, air temperature, quality of coal, pounds of coal per minute burned, track grades and curves, etc.?
So this whole supposed debunking rests only on the possibility that a clocking error might have occurred, and it might have resulted in 100 mph being misreported as 106 mph; and one person has an opinion that the locomotive was not capable of exceeding 90 mph?
This supposed debunking sounds like it is coming from people who believe railroading was anachronism incapable of heroic feats until the pinnacle of the super power era. It sounds to me like a collection of little doubts all strung together to reach for a preconceived conclusion.
It would seem to me that the capabilities of the locomotive would be more in question than the timekeeping. I do believe most railroaders had company watches (or they were at least checked by the company) that would have been capable of measuring time down to the second, as Hankey notes.
Using the published mileposts for the two stations vs two actual consecutive mileposts actually increases the precision of the measurement. We have no reason to believe the railroad fudged the locations of their stations. Mileposts are known to vary, but unless a railroad is trying to up their mileage for some reason, there's no reason to assume that they're all short.
I find his hysterical "That's impossible!" tone almost as incredible as the speed claim. Maybe even moreso.
Bucyrus, you are right. That's what I get for not using a calculator. Thanks for the correction.
The locomotive in question is ATSF 4-4-2 no. 510, a Baldwin saturated, balanced compound built in 1904.
Tim
I've just reread Mr Hankey's sidebar. He doubts both the accuracy ofthe timing and also the ability of the locomotive. No one knows who did the time measurement (1m 35s over 2.8 mi), butperhaps someone among the party used his own watch? If the time were1m 40sec instead of 5 seconds shorter, the speed would have been 100.8mph - still plenty fast, it seems to me.For the part of his claim based on the locomotive, the author invokeda conversation with Mr. Bill Withuhn, who studied speed claims forsteam locomotives from 1893 and 1905.Hankey writes "In his (BW's) opinion, neither locomotive - andcertainly not Santa Fe No. 510 - could have generated the boileroutput or cylinder horsepower needed to accelerate their trains past80 or 90 mph under ideal conditions. Furthermore it is hard toimagine that a fireman could shovel enough coal ..." "The boilercouldn't have made steam quickly enough,..."
tpatrick timz: In a letter in Rwy Age for 25 April 1936, M. D. Franey said an LS&MS 4-6-2 had run the 7.53 miles from Amherst to Vermilion OH in three minutes. No one can show a timekeeping error, and probably no one can show a mileage error. So, no reason to doubt it? 7.53 miles in 3 minutes would be only 156 mph. Who would question that? (to be read with sarcasm) Tim
timz: In a letter in Rwy Age for 25 April 1936, M. D. Franey said an LS&MS 4-6-2 had run the 7.53 miles from Amherst to Vermilion OH in three minutes. No one can show a timekeeping error, and probably no one can show a mileage error. So, no reason to doubt it?
In a letter in Rwy Age for 25 April 1936, M. D. Franey said an LS&MS 4-6-2 had run the 7.53 miles from Amherst to Vermilion OH in three minutes. No one can show a timekeeping error, and probably no one can show a mileage error. So, no reason to doubt it?
7.53 miles in 3 minutes would be only 156 mph. Who would question that? (to be read with sarcasm)
Not meaning to debunk your math, but, with all due respect, I have a sneaking suspicion that your calculation is off by 5.4 mph. Perhaps Mr. Hankey made a similar error.
By the way, which locomotive are we talking about for the claim of 106.1 mph?
CricketerScience "proves" bumblebees can't fly is of course an urban myth. But then criticising science is quite popular at the moment...
That may be, but it is a readily understandable way to make my point that actual physical results can be calculated mathematically, only to turn out differently than predicted because the calculation was in error, or more commonly, did not take into account the full range of variables that applied.
But, as I said before, if Mr. Hankey calculated that 106.1 mph was not possible, he surely must have found what speed was possible in that same calculation. And I cannot believe that he would not state that for the record in the Trains article. However, until I see the article, I can only assume he does state the maximum possible speed in the article.
The word, debunk is a strong, utterly confident word. It does not mean that you merely question or take issue with something. It means a crushing and humiliating refutation of someone’s claim beyond all shadow of a doubt. Debunk would be a fitting characterization if, for instance, you proved that the entire Walter Scott speed run was made up fiction and never happened.
On the contrary, publishing a claim to have debunked a century-old speed record by splitting hairs on the basis of some math calculation seems almost like a bigger publicity stunt than Scott’s speed run.
So, again I ask those who have read the article, what was the maximum speed possible according to Mr. Hankey’s calculations? Anybody??
timz In a letter in Rwy Age for 25 April 1936, M. D. Franey said an LS&MS 4-6-2 had run the 7.53 miles from Amherst to Vermilion OH in three minutes. No one can show a timekeeping error, and probably no one can show a mileage error. So, no reason to doubt it?
Feltonhill, thanks for the input. I hadn't thought of direct heating surface. It makes sense.
BucyrusI do not understand what reason there is to doubt a speed claim of 106 mph from a 4-4-2 locomotive and train of that era. I could understand the doubt if there were some type of timekeeping or mileage error that could be shown.
Bucyrus Firelock76: Does it really, really matter whether Death Valley Scotty's train hit 106mph or not? I can think of a lot more important things to lose sleep over. It must have mattered enough to write and publish an article claiming to have proved that the record was a lie.
Firelock76: Does it really, really matter whether Death Valley Scotty's train hit 106mph or not? I can think of a lot more important things to lose sleep over.
Does it really, really matter whether Death Valley Scotty's train hit 106mph or not? I can think of a lot more important things to lose sleep over.
It must have mattered enough to write and publish an article claiming to have proved that the record was a lie.
I've got a lot of respect for John Hankey, he's gone places and done things I would have loved to do and done them well. That being said, maybe he just had to write an article about SOMETHING and debunking Death Valley Scotty's run was as good a subject as any. Or maybe he just felt like stirring up some "stuff", if you know what I mean. Love ya John, keep up the good work!
Science "proves" bumblebees can't fly is of course an urban myth. But then criticising science is quite popular at the moment...
Again I've not red this article yet...but from past articles and understandings everybody was holding stop watches: trainmen, trainmasters, superindentants, on lookers, gawkers, operators, agents, the bulls, and, if he weren't otherwise occupied by companions and consumptions, Scotty himself. And I bet the PR people took the best times off each watch at each inch! That's what Scotty was paying for and that's what the public gobbled up.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.