h2fe9x2 Conclusions If speeds up to 90 miles per hour could be practiced on a level road with an ordinary train, although on special circumstances resulting from a question of prestige and from the need to compete for the same traffic with a rival road, the PRR, this with heavier, longer and older trains than the Scott Special, then why is so difficult to believe that a 100 mph run could be achieved with a lighter train on a special run? One made with a single paying lunatic like Dead Valley Scotty and with a clear road ahead of the locomotive, not an ordinary run with hundreds of “innocent” passengers! And this is not physics talk. This is only to put things in perspective, considering what the technology of the day could actually do. If this 100 mph run was an impossible accomplishment, one that cannot be easily refuted by the laws of physics, then believing in this can only result from a preconceived idea, and probably it is just that: a question of belief (and a pointless one). Well, apparently the one person that does not like numbers is Mr. Hankey itself, because this information (and a lot more) was made public at the time in technical (and reliable) publications of the day. One has only to research a little and study properly what we encounter. References (supporting the information posted here and on the previous post) - Maclean, Magnus, “Physical Units”, London, Biggs and Co., 1896 - Cotterill, J. H., “The Steam Engine”, Third Edition, Spon & Chamberlain, 1896 - Smart, R. A., “Performance of a Four-Cylinder Compound Locomotive”, Purdue University, paper presented before the St. Louis Railway Club, February 11, 1898 - “Vauclain System of Compound Locomotives: Description, Method of Operation and Maintenance”, Baldwin Locomotive Works, Burnham, Williams & Co., 1900 - “The Pennsylvania System at the Louisiana Purchase Exposition: Locomotive Tests and Exhibits”, the Pennsylvania Railroad Company, 1905 - “Report of the Proceedings of the Thirty-Ninth Annual Convention of the American Railway Mechanical Association”, Atlantic City, NJ, June 1906 - “Measuring Tools”, Third Edition, Machinery’s Reference Book No. 21, The Industrial Press, 1910 - Heck, Robert, “The Steam Engine and Turbine”, D. Van Nostrand Company, 1911 - Clayton, J. P., “The Steam Consumption of Locomotive Engines from the Indicator Diagram”, University of Illinois Engineering Experiment Station, Bulletin No. 65, January 1913 - “Report of the Proceedings of the Forty-Sixth Annual Convention of the American Railway Master Mechanical Association”, p. 282-285, Atlantic City, NJ, June, 11-13, 1913 - Wood, A. J., “Principles of Locomotive and Train Control”, McGraw-Hill Book Company, 1915 - Tuttle, Lucius, “The Theory of Measurements”, Jefferson Laboratory of Physics, Philadelphia, 1916 - Cole, F. J., Chief Consulting Engineer of the American Locomotive Company, Train Resistance in “Locomotive Hand-book”, American Locomotive Company, 1917 - Schmidt, E. C., and Dunn, H. H., “Passenger Train Resistance”, University of Illinois Engineering Experiment Station, Bulletin No. 110, December 1918 - Shealy, E. M., “Steam Engines”, McGraw-Hill Book Company, 1919 - Davis, W. J., Jr., “Tractive Resistance of Electric Locomotive and Cars”, General Electric Review, Vol. 29, pp. 685-708, October 1926 - Johnson, R. P., Chief Engineer of the Baldwin Locomotive Works, “The Steam Locomotive”, Simmons-Boardman Publishing Company, 1942 - Kalmbach, A. C., “Railroad Panorama”, Kalmbach Publishing Company, 1944 - Hay, W. W., “Railroad Engineering”, Second Edition, John Wiley & Sons, 1982 - Davis, R. S., “Recalibration of the U.S. National Prototype Kilogram”, Journal of Research of the National Bureau of Standards, Vol. 90, Number 4, July-August 1985 - Davis, R. S., “New Assignment of Mass Values and Uncertainties to NIST Working Standards”, Journal of Research of the National Institute of Standards and Technology, Vol. 95, Number 1, January-February 1990 - Avallone and Baumeister III (editors), “Standard Handbook for Mechanical Engineers”, Tenth Edition, McGraw-Hill International Editions, 1997 - Hugh, W. C., and Steele, W. G., “Experimentation, Validation, and Uncertainty Analysis for Engineers”, Third Edition, John Wiley & Sons, 2009
h2fe9x2,
In your quote above, you ask why the AT&SF speed record is so difficult to believe. I don’t think that it is difficult to believe so much as there is a refusal to believe it. There is a widespread bias that nothing great that happened until the modern era of railroading. These early speed records are a serious threat to that school of thought. Obviously, Mr. Hanke began with the pre-existing belief that the AT&SF speed record was false before he set out to “prove” that was the case.
Mr. Hanke says there are three reasons not to believe the claimed speed record:
1) It fairly reeks of wishful thinking and corporate spin.
2) There is no credible scenario in which the railroad (or anyone on the train) could have accurately timed that feat.
3) It was physically impossible.
People defend Hanke by saying that the record cannot be proven one way or the other. That is true, but that is not what Hanke is saying.
So, thanks for your effort in making a technical review of the physics of the debunking. I would say that you have debunked author Hanke’s invocation of the laws of physics, and restored the AT&SF speed claim as standing free of bunk.
The main point that I see is that 106 mph is not all that difficult to believe. If the claim was 206 mph, debunkers would have a lot more to work with. But splitting hairs over 106 mph more than a century latter seems like sour grapes. It seems petty.
Hanke hangs his debunking hat on the laws of physics, and concludes that a speed of 80-90 mph is all that was attainable. However, on the previous page, the Professor of Applied Thermodynamics, Heat Transfer, and Applied Mathematics has set 100 mph as plausible. But perhaps more importantly, he refutes the claim that the laws of physics can be directly applied to come up with a certain answer, as Hanke claims to have done.
Darren (BLHS & CRRM Lifetime Member)
Delaware and Hudson Virtual Museum (DHVM), Railroad Adventures (RRAdventures)
My Blog
oltmannd Bucyrus: There is no middle ground when it comes to debunking. Either you debunk the speed claim or you don’t. There really isn't an "is" or "is not" with this stuff. It's just about trying to see how bright or fuzzy the lines are you can draw. Also, the burden of proof is generally on the "bunk"-er, not the debunker. "My Toyota Camry went 273 mph on my way to work today". Can anyone prove that it didn't?
Bucyrus: There is no middle ground when it comes to debunking. Either you debunk the speed claim or you don’t.
There is no middle ground when it comes to debunking. Either you debunk the speed claim or you don’t.
There really isn't an "is" or "is not" with this stuff. It's just about trying to see how bright or fuzzy the lines are you can draw.
Also, the burden of proof is generally on the "bunk"-er, not the debunker.
"My Toyota Camry went 273 mph on my way to work today". Can anyone prove that it didn't?
I understand your point. The record claim itself is beyond the point of being proven or disproved. So we are free to believe it or not. But issue is that Hanke claims to have debunked the ATSF record. That is an impossible burden, as you point out.
To me, the most interesting aspect of this controversy is why there should be such a desperate need to debunk the claimed record. Would-be debunkers seem to be piling up large heaps of little uncertainties in the hope that a large enough pile will win their case. So we end up with claims that watches did not have second hands in the 1905 era, or an inch was not as long as today's inch.
For the record gentlemen, having lived for many years in New Jersey, I can attest that the particular stretch of Jersey Central mainline in question has had a history of very VERY fast trains.
To suggest out of hand that it is not possible is slightly more than disingenuous.
A little research on the Jersey Central on your part should be enlightening to you.
Bucyrus There is no middle ground when it comes to debunking. Either you debunk the speed claim or you don’t.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
daveklepper I think we can all agree that the article was overly dogmatic in its criticism, just as the original claims were dogmatic in their claims.
I think we can all agree that the article was overly dogmatic in its criticism, just as the original claims were dogmatic in their claims.
If Hanke’s criticism was overly dogmatic, and thus perhaps inaccurate, why should we assume that the speed claim is exaggerated, false, or overly dogmatic?
If Hanke is wrong, I see no reason to assume that the speed claim is wrong.
I think we can all agree that the article was overly dogmatic in its criticism, just as the original claims were dogmatic in their claims. The exact truth will be never ascertained, because it would involve duplicating the experiment, and even if the track, locomotive, cars, etc. received exact duplication, there would remain the weather and the wind.
Semper Vaporo But I would question if his value for Horsepower is the same as the 1903 value. Horsepower has been re-defined at least once since then...
But I would question if his value for Horsepower is the same as the 1903 value. Horsepower has been re-defined at least once since then...
Wut? 550 ft-lbs/sec. Now and forever.
The AUTOMOTIVE industry changed how the RATE HP on automotive engines - particularly which auxiliary loads to count in or out (water pump, oil pump, fuel pump, etc). This had nothing to do with how and where you measure HP on a steam locomotive. The two most common places to measure it are at the cylinder using an indicator (traces pressure vs. position - the area is the energy per stroke - times stroke rate give you HP). The other is at the drawbar - force X speed = power. There was quite a bit of sophistication to these measurements - even way back when.
Best post you ever made Henry. The sad , sad, shame is it is so true.
"Oh, I beg to differ with you on this point. Not only are we more gullable than ever, but we are less intellegent or knowledgable able about things around us in general and more focused on the few things that interest us most. Our entertainment and sports industries capture our attention and draw us in so that more of us vote for our American Idol than our President with more intimate and accurate knowledge of the Idol contestants than of anyone running for any elected office. We are tied to the likes of Facebook and Twitter but know litte but what is discussed there and not much of that which is there, either. Even in these threads just in the Trains Magazine section we are all so narrowily focused that some don't know modeling exists in another section and history in yet another section. How many from the General Discussion pages actually read the Amtrak, Locomotive, or Transit sections? Elsewhere in society we have so many veying for our minds and our pocketbooks so successfully that they are rich and we have turned our money and lives over to them. What we do have is a newsmedia which is nonshalant to so many things that happen daily and to history that something railroad would be considered so archaic so as not to be considered because it would not be underestood. Yet, it would be just as easy to have a Death Valley Scotty jump up and play games with us and ride across the country as we watch in amazement, Only today we would wonder why he is doing it. But he would have our atttention and our money. Worse yet, our vote. (Did I say that aloud?) No, we are very gullible today, and with the internet and hundreds of communications channels all aimed at us, we are suseptable. No matter how many channels you are able to receive you will only pay attention to an average of four in any given week and maybe no more than 10 in any month. Out of the thousands, you have been taken in by just a few and may never be part of a majority of any kind except the gullible."
Bucyrus So what are you saying about the laws of physics relative to the 106 mph speed claim? Did you read the post made today above mine? That is today's news.
So what are you saying about the laws of physics relative to the 106 mph speed claim? Did you read the post made today above mine? That is today's news.
I was responding specifically to Balt's question about the bumblebee. But I can extrapolate some question of the aforementioned mathmatical proofs.
I do not question the authority of the author (H2fex9x2) if I assume his claim of his occupation and I do not, at present, question such. As such, I do not question his formulae or the mathematical calculations, nor his conclusions based on the formulae and calculations.
But I would question if his value for Horsepower is the same as the 1903 value. Horsepower has been re-defined at least once since then... and to begin with the fellow that invented the term fudged his calculations so that his machinery appeared to be higher powered than they really were... i.e.: a real (average?) horse can achieve more than one horsepower (on average). If the horsepower of 1903 is not the same as the 2012 horsepower then the calculations may need a correction factor (which may very well make the numbers worse for the purpose the claimed speed record!).
In addition, I ask whose "Mile" was used for the measurement of the speed? I.e.: how long is a mile? Silly question! It is 5280 feet! Okay, how long is a foot? Silly question, it is 12 inches. Okay, how long was the 1904 (or possibly earlier, like when the track was built) inch? Hmmm... today an inch is EXACTLY 2.54 centimeters... and a centimeter is one 100th of a meter and a meter a certain fraction of the distance between the earth's equator and the northpole.... which was not actually measured, but was calculated based on a few miles of hand measurement using a chain... oh wait, that was not good enough so the French manufactured a length of a platinum-irridium bar that they keep in a specially controlled environment. Well no, today it is a fixed number of cycles of a certain wavelength of a particular color of light.
But at one time, prior to all the redefining of the meter, the inch was NOT exactly 2.54 cm! It was DECREED to be such by a scientific body to be, so that conversion from one measurement method to the other was made easier. But for that decree to be true, either the Meter or the inch had to change from what it was. I don't remember what the error was, but I am fairly certain it was the inch that had to adjust.
I bet there are a dozen little "errors" like this that affect the final numbers of the calculations. Who did the measureing of the boiler horsepower in 1903? What instrumentation was used? How accurate was that instrumentation? What would the equivalent measurements be using today instrumentation and how accurate would it be? And I wonder which method of measuring a mile was used when laying out the track mile markers.
It has been my experience that errors like this do not tend to cancel each other out, they tend to compound like my credit card bill!
I trust the clam of the speed record as much as I trust the calculations done here in the previous post. I respect both the people that made the claim and I respect the calculations as showing that it was not likely to have been true using today's more exacting standards. Maybe they had a 30 MPH tailwind, maybe the cars weighed a bit less, maybe the coal was a better grade, maybe the wheels on the engine were a slightly larger or smaller diameter (fresh tires?, worn tires?), maybe the grade was steeper (how often is the grade measured along the track?), maybe the axles had a slightly better grease on the journals, maybe... maybe there were "very favorable circumstances not known".
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
BaltACD Doesn't the Bumble Bee break the laws of physics every time it takes flight?
Doesn't the Bumble Bee break the laws of physics every time it takes flight?
That was true at one time, but that is only because the "Laws of physics' were actualy "aerodynamic THEORY" and the theory was WRONG.
Same is true for the military plane known as the Flying Boxcar... it also failed the then known aerodynamic theory (Inever understood how it got designed and built if it failed to meet the presently known theory), until the theory was corrected. (Prior to that, it was said that the only reason it got airborne is because the crew spent the whole time praying that it would.)
There are actually very few "LAWS" in physics... most are actually generally accepted theories that seem to hold true most of the time...
At one time the earth was considered the center of the universe and mankind was able to utilize that "LAW" to advantage... but when that law was "repealed" because of more knowledge by those bold enough to challenge the law, even greater advances in the utilization of the way things "really are' were made.
Same is true for the flow of electricity... when it was theorized to be a flow of some substance it was decided that it was a flow from a place with an excess of it, to a place with a relative scarcity of it. One end of the source was labeled with a "+: symbol and the other with a "-" symbol, to represent the abundance and scarcity, respectively. Lots of useful things were created while that "LAW" was in force (the light bulb being one of them). Then it was discovered that it is the "flow" was of electrons and that the real flow was the other way and so they must be negatively charged. The "LAW" was changed and with the additional knowledge even more useful items have been invented.
It will be interesting to see what other "LAWS" are, in the future, found to be in error and what the outcome will be when the new "LAW" is enacted..
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Thank you very much for your amazingly deep and thoughtful analysis. I cannot begin to verify or question your calculations, but the outcome certainly fits my expectation, even if it does not quite confirm the claimed speed of the record. I certainly agree with your criticism of the assertions in the article that the speed record would have defied the laws of physics.
My opinion is that the railfan steam interest is almost exclusively focused on the latest and greatest steam locomotive achievements of the super power era, and therefore they feel that any claims of record greatness have to belong to that modern era. So they readily accept speed claims from the super power era and need to debunk claims from circa 1900. That is exactly the way Hanke’s debunking comes off to me. It is a bias against antiquity, and it often assumes that people from 100 years ago were not as smart or talented as they are today.
Longitudinal dynamics of an early 20th century train: formulae applicable only on a straight track run:
Davis formulae/ E. Schmidt (for cars and steam locomotive, machine friction included)
CR=1.3xCW+29xNCA+0.030xCWxS+0.00034x120xNCxS2
LR=1.3x(TW+LW)+29xNLA+(0.045xTW+0.030xLW)xS+(0.00050x86+0.0024x120)xS2+20xWD
Gradient Resistance
GR=20xGx(CW+TW+LW)
Inertial Resistance (rotacional inertia included)
IR=[91.1x(CW+TW+LW)+36.4xNSA+182xNDA]xA =ICxA
Locomotive Tractive Force for a given cylinder HP
(Machine friction is considered in locomotive resistance)
TF=375xIHP/S
Newton’s Second Law and train acceleration capacity
Making TR=CR+LR, then TF=TR+GR+IR and finally
A=(TF-TR-GR)/IC
Notation used
CR=Cars Resistance to motion (uniform speed and level tangent track) [lbf]
LR=Locomotive (and tender) Resistance to motion (uniform speed and level tangent track) [lbf]
TR=Train Resistance to motion (total resistance, since LR already includes machine friction)
CW=Cars Weight [tons] (=short tons)
NCA= Number of Car Axels
NLA= Number of Locomotive (and tender) Axels
NSA= Number of Supporting Axels (cars, tender and locomotive)
NDA= Number of Driving Axels
NC=Number of Cars
LW=Locomotive Weight [tons]
TW=Tender Weight [tons]
WD=Weight on Drivers [tons]
G=Gradient in % (+ upgrade; - downgrade)
IR=Inertial Resistance (axles rotational resistance included)
IC=Inertial Constant (IC=IR/A) [dimensional constant: lbf per mph/sec acceleration]
TF=Tractive Force (based on MEP: Mean Effective Pressure)
IHP=Indicated Horsepower (or cylinder HP) [hp]
S=Speed [mph]
A=Acceleration [mph/sec]
Data known:
CW=170 tons; NCA=16; NC=3;
LW=97 tons; TW=72 tons (assumed near Galesburg); WD=51 tons; NLA=9;
NSA=23; NDA=2;
IHP=1500 hp
This estimate, acceptable for speeds above 70 mph, is based on the thermodynamic performance displayed by AT&SF Vauclain compound Atlantic No. 535, tested at St. Louis Exhibition Test Plant in 1904 (the MAX HP registered during those tests was 1703 IHP, on Oct. 22, 1904, 1622 IHP having been maintained for 2 hours at maximum boiler output in a 113 miles run). The 1500 IHP value is thought to be conservative, but this assumption is not discussed here (thermodynamically too complex to do so here).
With the known data, the described formulae can be simplified for the Scott Special in the form:
TR = 2186 + 11.25xS + 0.4534xS2 [lbf]
GR = 6780xG [lbf]
IR = 32084xA [lbf]
TF=562500/S [lbf]
And the acceleration capacity would be:
A = [562500/S - (6780xG + 2186 + 11.25xS + 0.4534xS2)]/32084 [mph/s]
Considering the wind speed, WS, if aligned with the train (WS>0 => favorable wind), one has:
TR = 2186 + 11.25xS + 0.4534x(S-WS)|S-WS| [lbf] =>
A = [562500/S - (6780xG + 2186 + 11.25xS + 0.4534x(S-WS)|S-WS|)]/32084 [mph/s]
Note that the expression {(S-WS)|S-WS|} is equal to the square of the air-to-train relative velocity (or proportional to the drag force); the use of the absolute value |S-WS| is needed only for train speeds inferior to wind speed, since the drag force direction will change in this case.
Examples:
1) Scott Special acceleration on level track, G=0, at the speeds:
S1=70 mph => A1=0.0885 mph/s
S2=80 mph => A2=0.0325 mph/s
S3=86.2 mph => A3=0 mph/s => balance speed on level track in the absence of wind
Noting that the mean longitudinal acceleration is defined as: A=DV/Dt, then:
Dt1->2=DV1->2/A12,
A12 is the mean acceleration in the time interval Dt1->2=t2-t1, for the velocity variation of DV1->2=V2-V1. Assuming A12 = (A1 + A2)/2 as a representative value then,
Dt1->2 = 2xDV1->2/(A1 + A2) = 2x(80 mph - 70 mph)/(0.0885 mph/s + 0.0325 mph/s) = 165 s
Dt2->3 = 2xDV2->3/(A2 + A3) = 2x(86.2 mph - 80 mph)/(0.0325 mph/s + 0) = 382 s
So the total time scale to approach balance speed is 547 sec, or 9 minutes approximately. Yet the actual time need to reach a given speed would have required integration: analytical (somewhat complex); or numerical, similar as done above but using smaller speed intervals.
Dt = ò 1/A(V) dV
2) Scott Special acceleration on a downgrade of 0.2%, G=-0.2, with the help of a tail wind of 20 mph, at the speeds:
S1=70 mph => A1=0.1647 mph/s
S2=80 mph => A2=0.1144 mph/s => Dt1->2=72 s => t2=72 s
S3=90 mph => A3=0.0681 mph/s => Dt2->3=110 s => t3=182 s
S4=100 mph => A4=0.0239 mph/s => Dt3->4=217 s => t3=399 s (plausible)
S5=105.5 mph => A5=0 mph/s => Dt4->5=460 s => t3=859 s (not plausible)
So with a 20 mph tail wind, blowing from West to East (not uncommon in the Illinois State in July), and running on a slight downgrade of 0.2%, the Scott Special could have reached the ‘century mark’ in 6 min 40 sec and in less than 10 miles [sum of the average speed (in mph) x respective time interval (in hours)], for an initial train velocity of 70 mph (cruising speed).
Yet a speed of 106 mph is not plausible, for the conditions assumed, due to the extension of the run needed to overcome train inertia. Also the water level in the boiler would be dangerously low, since at this speed the steam flow rate would surpass the maximum sustained capacity of the boiler (of 34,100 lb/h revealed at the St. Louis Test Plant in 1904).
Likewise, the maximum plausible speeds on a level tangent track, considering only the wind influence, would oscillate between 77 and 96 mph, for winds ranging from 20 mph against train to a 20 mph tail wind, the latter being more probable studying the wind charts of the Illinois State in July.
Yet a train resistance formula is not a physical law in the strict sense, but simply an empirical correlation affected by high uncertainty levels. For instance, the standard deviation of the measured machine friction for the 4 compound Atlantics tested at St. Louis test Plant was on average >40% of the mean machine friction, or 8 lbf per ton on drivers. So considering this value as a measure of the random uncertainty associated with locomotive resistance, for a 20 mph tail wind one could have as equally probable maximum train speeds of 93.1 and 98.5 mph on level track. Actually if one had performed a thorough uncertainty analysis of the entire calculus procedure presented above (one that would have demanded a lot of educated guess work), one would end up with a 95% confidence interval for maximum train speeds, in favorable atmospheric conditions, surely wider than 90 to 105 mph! This might come as shock to someone not familiar with physics and experimental work, but this is how things really are: the engineering art is not an exact science such as Mathematics! Only a very trusting person can think otherwise.
So in this case we can invoke the physics to make a probabilistic statement, but never to make a dogmatic affirmation such as “a 100 mph run would violate the laws of physics”. With all due respect to those who believe in such approach, it’s simply nonsense. That run was not a controlled test run, and as such it was not properly documented. In probabilistic terms that claim of high speed is exaggerated, undoubtedly, but speeds close to 100 mph are plausible even on level track, but only in favorable circumstances. But not even the actual gradient profile (detailed to the mile) is known, and there are sources that state that between Shopton and Chillicothe the track had an undulating character with a maximum gradient of 0.6%! [www.catskillarchive.com/rrextra/BLATSF] With such data (or in its absence) it is utterly impossible to use any serious scientific approach, and that’s final!
This is a case of trust: or we trust the source or we don’t, so this is also a question of respect. As such, I would have preferred to classify that a 106 mph speed simply as improbable (but not impossible) and would avoid statements such as ‘the cars would jump of the track’ or the that ‘the times were taken with 24 sec error for a 95 sec interval’ (why not round to the minute, and the speed could have been worthy of an TGV test run?), because in doing so I would be treating the entire railroad community of those days as inept people ignorant of the seventeen/eighteen century Newtonian’s Laws. In fact any rational argumentation is useless with those who believe that it would not demand to know such laws (and many others) to build a machine capable of making 1700 IHP or a boiler capable of almost 12 MW of useful thermal power, using such a crude fuel as coal burned in a 50 sq.ft grate.
Not even the great French Locomotive Engineer, Andre Chapelon, dared to discredit the 127 mph run claimed by the PRR on June 12, 1905, with the Pennsylvania Special, and in such bold terms as to invoke the laws of physic; although a man of science, and speaking precisely of high speed runs with steam locomotives, he nonetheless restrained is remarks simply by saying that such a performance would have demanded very favorable circumstances not known. He was only the man that had re-build several early 20th century steam locomotives to the point of making a 3 cylinder compound 4-8-4 capable of 5500 IHP (metric hp) with a 21 ton axle load limit (metric tons), actually measured during controlled road tests. How could he do it if A. C. Kalmbach, the founder and editor of TRAINS magazine, accepted this high speed claim as an authenticated one?
Who am I?
I’m a Professor in a European’s Polytechnic Institute: I teach Applied Thermodynamics, Heat Transfer and Applied Mechanics.
Why do I bother?
Because I think we must respect past achievements and those involve, unless ample evidence is presented to us suggesting the contrary. And in this case a more cautious approach should have been used by TRAINS while speaking of such an undocumented subject (at least not a single quantified fact was presented). Also we should avoid deterministic statements like “the violation of the laws of physics”, because such an exaggerated argumentation (in this case) can be wrongly interpreted and extended to the finest accomplishments of an entire era. And that would be quite unfair to the memory of those that have worked to the finest standards of the day with the tools at their disposal (condescending judgments are nothing more than a display of our one ignorance...).
Obviously I am a rail fan since long and a descendent of railway men.
To anyone interested, I can specify the documental sources supporting the statements made and the formulae and the data used here.
BaltACD The only similarity between the railroad worlds of 1905 and 2012 is that the gauge is 4 feet 8 1/2 inches. Regulatory, statutory, promotional and business models would not be able to talk each other over the time differences. tree68: I would suspect that the FRA would have more to do with quashing such an effort than anyone else, however indirectly. Class 4 track is class 4 track and is limited to 80 mph for passenger. The only way to make a "record" run is to stay at speed as much as possible. I don't know if there are penalties for openly running faster than the class of track allows. There were no such track classes at the time of Scotty's run, and I suspect that the train frequently ran as fast as the track would carry it safely.
The only similarity between the railroad worlds of 1905 and 2012 is that the gauge is 4 feet 8 1/2 inches. Regulatory, statutory, promotional and business models would not be able to talk each other over the time differences.
tree68: I would suspect that the FRA would have more to do with quashing such an effort than anyone else, however indirectly. Class 4 track is class 4 track and is limited to 80 mph for passenger. The only way to make a "record" run is to stay at speed as much as possible. I don't know if there are penalties for openly running faster than the class of track allows. There were no such track classes at the time of Scotty's run, and I suspect that the train frequently ran as fast as the track would carry it safely.
I would suspect that the FRA would have more to do with quashing such an effort than anyone else, however indirectly. Class 4 track is class 4 track and is limited to 80 mph for passenger.
The only way to make a "record" run is to stay at speed as much as possible.
I don't know if there are penalties for openly running faster than the class of track allows.
There were no such track classes at the time of Scotty's run, and I suspect that the train frequently ran as fast as the track would carry it safely.
Guys, remember money talks and if someone wants to do something badly enough and spreads the green in the right directions with the right concocted message, who knows what will happen.
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tree68 I would suspect that the FRA would have more to do with quashing such an effort than anyone else, however indirectly. Class 4 track is class 4 track and is limited to 80 mph for passenger. The only way to make a "record" run is to stay at speed as much as possible. I don't know if there are penalties for openly running faster than the class of track allows. There were no such track classes at the time of Scotty's run, and I suspect that the train frequently ran as fast as the track would carry it safely.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
jpwoodruff I've been enjoying the articles about Scott's train record. Can I aska related topic?How would the railroad prepare for such an event?The lore says "A few minutes before noon on Saturday the 8th of July,a man walked in ..." Scott challenged Mr Byrne to set the record andSanta Fe accepted the challenge. The train departed at 1 PM the next day. It seems to me that there must have been planning behind the scenebefore the theatrical conversation between Scott and Byrne. So I'mwondering - how much planning and communication was done by therailroad managers to be so confident of success? What operations have to happen ahead of the train's departure? What does it take to get all the men and equipment in place, crewsrested and ready?How much time does it take to get *all* those things done? I inferthat Mr Byrne was confident that it could be done. My hypothesis isthe plans had been afoot for some days before the meeting.
I've been enjoying the articles about Scott's train record. Can I aska related topic?How would the railroad prepare for such an event?The lore says "A few minutes before noon on Saturday the 8th of July,a man walked in ..." Scott challenged Mr Byrne to set the record andSanta Fe accepted the challenge. The train departed at 1 PM the next day. It seems to me that there must have been planning behind the scenebefore the theatrical conversation between Scott and Byrne. So I'mwondering - how much planning and communication was done by therailroad managers to be so confident of success? What operations have to happen ahead of the train's departure? What does it take to get all the men and equipment in place, crewsrested and ready?How much time does it take to get *all* those things done? I inferthat Mr Byrne was confident that it could be done. My hypothesis isthe plans had been afoot for some days before the meeting.
ANOTHER IMPOSSIBLE SPEED RECORD:
Here is a description of a fast run on the Plant System in 1901 during a government sponsored competition between the performance of the Plant System and Seaboard Air Line railroads for the awarding of a U.S. Postal Service mail contract.
U.S Postal Service authorities confirmed that the Plant System test train reached 108 mph with the test train being pulled by locomotive #111.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=950&dat=19730305&id=2r5aAAAAIBAJ&sjid=w1cDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7218,1051223
There was more than one competing run made for this test. In the one I mentioned above, a maximum speed of 108 mph was achieved. The highest speed of all was achieved in this particular run, which used locomotive #111, and achieved 120 mph:
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gaware/html/great_locomotive_race_1901.html
I recall the story of this competition was covered in a magazine, which I recall as being Trains. However a search only turns up coverage of Plant System locomotive #111 with article title reference to it being a “fast stepping ten-wheeler.” This is in Trains November 1943, and that is not the article I recall seeing. I have never seen this article and don’t have that issue of the magazine. Here is the reference:
http://trc.trains.com/Train%20Magazine%20Index.aspx?articleId=64651&view=ViewIssue&issueId=5634
Locomotive #111 was renumbered to #210. I don’t find a picture of #111 or #210, but here is #110, which may be a sister to #111. If so, you can see what type of engine we are talking about for pulling a train at 120 mph:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/20/SF%26W_No._110.jpg
CSSHEGEWISCH The press and the public are also a lot more skeptical today than they were in the early 1900's, so a character like Death Valley Scotty wouldn't exist today and the whole special would be viewed as little more than a pricey publicity stunt.
The press and the public are also a lot more skeptical today than they were in the early 1900's, so a character like Death Valley Scotty wouldn't exist today and the whole special would be viewed as little more than a pricey publicity stunt.
Oh, I beg to differ with you on this point. Not only are we more gullable than ever, but we are less intellegent or knowledgable able about things around us in general and more focused on the few things that interest us most. Our entertainment and sports industries capture our attention and draw us in so that more of us vote for our American Idol than our President with more intimate and accurate knowledge of the Idol contestants than of anyone running for any elected office. We are tied to the likes of Facebook and Twitter but know litte but what is discussed there and not much of that which is there, either. Even in these threads just in the Trains Magazine section we are all so narrowily focused that some don't know modeling exists in another section and history in yet another section. How many from the General Discussion pages actually read the Amtrak, Locomotive, or Transit sections? Elsewhere in society we have so many veying for our minds and our pocketbooks so successfully that they are rich and we have turned our money and lives over to them. What we do have is a newsmedia which is nonshalant to so many things that happen daily and to history that something railroad would be considered so archaic so as not to be considered because it would not be underestood. Yet, it would be just as easy to have a Death Valley Scotty jump up and play games with us and ride across the country as we watch in amazement, Only today we would wonder why he is doing it. But he would have our atttention and our money. Worse yet, our vote. (Did I say that aloud?) No, we are very gullible today, and with the internet and hundreds of communications channels all aimed at us, we are suseptable. No matter how many channels you are able to receive you will only pay attention to an average of four in any given week and maybe no more than 10 in any month. Out of the thousands, you have been taken in by just a few and may never be part of a majority of any kind except the gullible.
It would be easier to figure out when the train left Pittsburgh, but I'd still like to think that if someone of the kind of wealth Scotty had were to walk into the office of the president of a RR, he could get it done today. The Railroads of yesterday were all about schedules, but today they are more used to moving product when it needs to be moved and I have seen them "MOVE" when the conditions warrant it. I can't help but believe they could get it done today.
If it were a panel of 100 working on the project, two of them would trump them all: the lawyer and the insurance man.
henry6 Today such preperatons would probably take months; back then, the bold decisions were made routinly and they were always looking for ways to make a splash, get attention, and prove themselves (proving what was maybe not always clear). It wouldn't be considered today. Not just because it couldn't be done today, but it would take a wild imagination with a need so dire it is incomprehensable!
Today such preperatons would probably take months; back then, the bold decisions were made routinly and they were always looking for ways to make a splash, get attention, and prove themselves (proving what was maybe not always clear). It wouldn't be considered today. Not just because it couldn't be done today, but it would take a wild imagination with a need so dire it is incomprehensable!
Yes, I don’t think this speed run even could be done today. This was a product of a bold and wild time when adventure was king. If it were today, there would probably be a bunch of naysayers who would prove the speed could not be achieved, so there was no need to try. They would say that nobody could shovel enough coal. They would probably tell the AT&SF that the speed stunt would reek of corporate spin.
Great questions and even greater observations. It is easy to say it was an age of whatever...lots of manpower, lots of time, lots of money (for some), and lots of imagination for all. So, could this have been pulled off effectively and efficiently as stated? By today's standards only the "some with money" could hold true; the manpower and imagination are probably in short supply and the red tape and rules and regulations are many. Many.
Getting the railroad ready wasn't as hard as might seem. There were plenty of people to be assigned to do all the work needed: spiking and guarding all swtiches, bridges and tunnels; preparing and spotting all locomoitves and coal and water supplies where and as needed; assembling the few cars needed for the trip; having crews ready at a whistle's notice (there was no hours of service rules, so if one were not already perched in an engine cab and his eyes were open, he was deemed ready for a new assignement). Probably getting the pre publicity out and reacted to was the hardest part as there were so many newspapers to notify individually instead of a mass email or fax campaign like is done in minutes today. Today, notifying the media would be easier but getting response would be more difficult. More difficult, too, would be getting the idea passed from brass to brass, one level at a time, then getting government rulers to sign off on the idea. The imagining would have to be excercised in figureing out why this was a good idea and how to get it through the red tape quickly. Today such preperatons would probably take months; back then, the bold decisions were made routinly and they were always looking for ways to make a splash, get attention, and prove themselves (proving what was maybe not always clear). It wouldn't be considered today. Not just because it couldn't be done today, but it would take a wild imagination with a need so dire it is incomprehensable!
That sure is one nice looking compound American Standard 4-4-0.
Yes Wanswheel, that picture you posted is the old girl herself. Only 97 miles an hour. Oh well, I'm corrected, dejected, but not disaffected. I still love the CNJ! Somebody better tell Mr. Carleton. (It ain't gonna be me!)
Next someone's going to tell me there's no Easter Bunny!
American Machinist (1892)
The Central Railroad of New Jersey has put on one of the Vauclain compound engines, and this fact gives the Plainfleld correspondent of the Times an opportunity to distinguish himself. He says: "The engine has double cylinders, and this adds greatly to its power, for the steam is made to do almost double work." We are further informed that "the New York commuters unite in declaring it to be the best engine they ever rode behind." The ordinary mechanic would have to pursue a course very different from merely riding in a car behind an engine in order to determine its relative excellence, but the New York commuters, most of whom are business men, and know little more of locomotives than locomotives know of them, can determine all about it, we suppose, by looking out of the car windows and observing the landscape as they pass along.
The Railroad and Engineering Journal (1892)
It is claimed that the best time on record was made on the evening of November 18 on the Central Railroad of New Jersey by one of the large Vauclain compound passenger engines, which were illustrated and described in the Journal for June last. On the evening in question the engine, running with a regular train, consisting of a combination car, two day coaches and a Pullman car, ran one mile, near Fanwood, N. J., in 38 seconds, and the succeeding mile in 37 seconds; or at the rate of 94.74 and 97.30 miles per hour respectively. The engine had previously made a mile in 39 seconds. At the time of the run there was a high wind.
Cassier's Magazine (1893)
[The] fastest one-mile record, according to all accounts, belongs to the Central Railroad of New Jersey. Particulars of the rather unpretentious looking engine with which this record has been gained will be of interest in this connection. The engine is of the compound type, with cylinders thirteen and twenty-two inches in diameter by twenty-four inch stroke. The drivers measure seventy-eight inches in diameter; driving wheel base, seven feet six inches; total wheel base twenty-two feet three and one half inches. The boiler is fifty-eight inches in diameter, and has 250 two-inch tubes, eleven feet ten inches long. The total weight of the engine is 123,800 pounds, of which 88,400 come on the drivers. The tender has a capacity for 3500 gallons of water. In one of the trial runs made from Philadelphia to Jersey City with the compound engine No. 385, the train hauled weighed about 140 tons. The weight of locomotive and tender together amounted to 102 tons. Philadelphia was left at 5.15 P. M., and the train ran at the rate of forty miles per hour to Wayne Junction, which was reached at 5.26. At 5.29 the train again started on the eighty-five-mile stretch to Jersey City. At Tabor Junction the train was slowed down, and near Jenkintown it was flagged. The uphill grade is there seventy-eight feet to the mile, but still five miles were covered in four minutes. On toward Langhorne, thirteen miles distant, the schedule time was fourteen minutes, one mile of the distance, however, being made in forty-four seconds. From Somerton to Parkland, five miles, was made in forty-two, forty-one, forty, forty and forty-two seconds respectively, the hourly rate of speed thus varying from eighty-six to ninety miles. The five miles were passed over in three minutes and twenty-five seconds. Langhorne was reached at 5.51, the thirteen-mile stretch having been covered in twelve minutes. The best time for one mile on this section was thirty-nine seconds. Further on the way, to Plainfield, no noteworthy speed was made, but there were, instead, several delays. From Plainfield on, however, the world's record was to be broken. Leaving Plainfield at 6.57 (three minutes late), Fanwood was passed, and beyond this point the chronograph recorded a mile in thirty-seven seconds, and another one in thirty-eight seconds, the hourly rate of speed being ninety-seven miles. Jersey City was reached two minutes ahead of time. A boiler pressure of 180 pounds was carried. The track, it should be remarked, was in favorable condition, there having been a heavy downpour of rain along the line.
Locomotives of this type are used to haul the Royal Blue Line trains part of the way between Jersey City, N. J., and Washington, D. C, a distance of 224.5 miles. This line is a through express service over the Baltimore and Ohio and Philadelphia and Reading Railroads, and the Central Railroad of New Jersey, making the distance in five hours, including the ferry New York to Jersey City.
Encyclopedia Americana (1904)
Samuel M. Vauclain, superintendent of the Baldwin Locomotive Works, designed a four-cylinder compound locomotive, in which a high-pressure and a low-pressure cylinder are placed one above the other on each side of the locomotive, both formed within a single casting, together with the steam-chest, and occupying the same place as the ordinary single-expansion cylinders. The two piston-rods connect to a common crosshead, but back of the cross-head pin there is no essential difference from the ordinary engine....
Up to 1889, when the compound system was introduced, there did not exist a demand for sustained speeds exceeding 50 miles an hour. In November 1892, one of Vauclain's compounds, No. 385, running on the Philadelphia and Reading and the Jersey Central railroads, between Philadelphia and Jersey City, with a train of four heavy cars attained a speed of 97 miles per hour by covering one mile in 37 seconds.
Arkansas Runner speed debunker: 1 mile in 37 seconds = 97.29729 mph.
http://www.arkansasrunner.com/calculators/mileperhr.htm
While it probably couldn't make steam fast enough to sustain very high speeds, that may not preclude short sprints, especially if downhill too. But how many of the newsmen were actually timing the run themselve? More than likely only one person decided out of interest to get his watch out, and everybody else just copied what he told them.
What size were the drivers on that particular class of steam locomotive?
John
Bucyrus Firelock76: Did you know MY New Jersey Central was the first to break the 100 mph mark? It's true. In 1892 the brand spankin' new Baldwin Vauclain compound 4-4-0 Number 385 ran from Jersey City to Philadelphia and back in four hours and twenty five minutes. On the straightaway beyond Fanwood hill 385 ran two miles in 75 seconds, that's 105 miles an hour! There were a number of newsmen on board witnessing the run, there was no doubt about it. 105 mph? Oh come on. How could they make the steam? How could they shovel the coal that fast? Did their clocks even turn clockwise back in that antique era? I must say that the whole thing just reeks of corporate spin. I have a friend that knows all about the laws of physics, and he says this speed record had to be a hoax.
Firelock76: Did you know MY New Jersey Central was the first to break the 100 mph mark? It's true. In 1892 the brand spankin' new Baldwin Vauclain compound 4-4-0 Number 385 ran from Jersey City to Philadelphia and back in four hours and twenty five minutes. On the straightaway beyond Fanwood hill 385 ran two miles in 75 seconds, that's 105 miles an hour! There were a number of newsmen on board witnessing the run, there was no doubt about it.
On the straightaway beyond Fanwood hill 385 ran two miles in 75 seconds, that's 105 miles an hour! There were a number of newsmen on board witnessing the run, there was no doubt about it.
I have a friend that knows all about the laws of physics, and he says this speed record had to be a hoax.
The descent from Fanwood is 0.4% westward and 0.6% eastward, so nobody can disprove the 96 mph CNJ claim. Might even be true.
Well, EVERYBODY should have a hobby, you know. Just kidding, love ya John!
Yes, so much debunking to do and so little time.
Sounds like another potential project for Mr. Hankey.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
I don't know man, I wasn't there. But Paul Carleton in "The Jersey Central Story" (D. Carlton Railbooks, copyright 1992) says it, and I believe it, and that settles it! Go "Big Little Railroad"!!!
PS: Maybe they used high-octane bituminous?
Firelock76Did you know MY New Jersey Central was the first to break the 100 mph mark? It's true. In 1892 the brand spankin' new Baldwin Vauclain compound 4-4-0 Number 385 ran from Jersey City to Philadelphia and back in four hours and twenty five minutes. On the straightaway beyond Fanwood hill 385 ran two miles in 75 seconds, that's 105 miles an hour! There were a number of newsmen on board witnessing the run, there was no doubt about it.
105 mph?
Oh come on. How could they make the steam? How could they shovel the coal that fast? Did their clocks even turn clockwise back in that antique era? I must say that the whole thing just reeks of corporate spin.
OK, that's enough of the Santa Fe and "did they or didn't they" do 106.1 miles-per-hour. I'm going to do a little rootin' for the home team,
Did you know MY New Jersey Central was the first to break the 100 mph mark? It's true. In 1892 the brand spankin' new Baldwin Vauclain compound 4-4-0 Number 385 ran from Jersey City to Philadelphia and back in four hours and twenty five minutes. On the straightaway beyond Fanwood hill 385 ran two miles in 75 seconds, that's 105 miles an hour! There were a number of newsmen on board witnessing the run, there was no doubt about it.
Of course, the record was broken a year later by New York Central's 999, but the Jersey Central was the first to pass the "Century" mark. As Maestro Buddy Valastro, the "Cake Boss" says: "That's Jersey, Baby! We know how to get it done!"
Death Valley Scotty was a fraud, a product of an era when people enjoyed his showmanship and didn't worry about whether he was honest and trustworthy.
There is certainly a big disconnect between the AT&SF claim of the speed record and Mr. Hankey’s view of it. But there is also a big disconnect between Mr. Hankey’s view of Death Valley Scotty and his public image at the time of the speed run. In fact, when reading the article, I get the impression that Mr. Hankey is mainly trying to debunk Walter Scott.
It seems pretty obvious, by the details in the piece posted by wanswheel, that Death Valley Scotty was a much beloved and honored hero in the era of the speed record. I wonder when he turned into the person Mr. Hankey describes.
It never happened....
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
Excerpt from The Story of Scotty by Charles A. Taylor (1906).
http://books.google.com/books?id=Li0XAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA1[
CHAPTER IV.
VAN LOAN'S STORY OF THE "COYOTE'' SPECIAL.
One July evening, seated in the reception room of the Hollenbeck Hotel, Los Angeles, two friends of mine from San Francisco were talking of "Scotty's" wild ride on the "Coyote" special. Old Jim Haswell, a well-known California character and an ardent admirer of "Scotty," came in and joined us with a "Hello, fellows! Did you hear what Charlie Van Loan, the Examiner man, said about 'Scotty?' No? Then wait a moment. Who ordered that last round? No, thanks; no more cigarettes for me, not since I left New York. Yes, waiter, cigars for four; best you have. Now, then, I just came from the editorial rooms of the Examiner and have a proof of Van's story. Never mind how I got it. Listen while I read it to you:
" 'All aboard!' called Conductor George Simpson, of Walter Scott's special record-breaker train to Chicago at one minute of 1 o'clock yesterday afternoon. A minute later he waved his hand to Engineer John Finley, and the greatest race against time in railroad history commenced.
"Scott and his wife stood on the rear platform, with C.E. Van Loan, the Examiner's recorder of this most remarkable journey across the continent. The crowd of fifteen hundred people gave a cheer, and shouted: 'Hit it up, Scotty!' 'Get your money's worth, old man!' 'You're wild and wooly, but you're a dandy!' 'Good luck, old Death Valley sport!' to which Scotty smiled and waved a farewell.
"Long before noon the depot grounds were filled with the curious to see the 'Man of the Earth,' as he is called in New York clubs, take his departure.
"The special train stood glistening as brightly as the force that worked on it all night could make paint, brass and nickel. There was a Pullman, the 'Muskegon,' dining-car No. 1407, baggage-car No. 210, and a ten-wheel Baldwin locomotive No. 442, which made the run to Barstow.
"Engineer John Finley was in command, with Traveling Engineer J.B. Gallivan supervising, and Charles Ashleigh as fireman. Conductor George Simpson and Brakeman F.A. King had charge of the coaches, and Dining Car Conductor Thomas Lee, with Chef Fred Geyer, looked after the commissary, with a corps of waiters and dishwashers.
"Every table in the diner was set and each was adorned with a bouquet of carnations.
" 'Here he comes! Here he comes!' and Walter Scott was seen pushing his way through the jam leading a dog. He started as he saw the immense throng in front of him. 'What in Hades is this, a funeral?' he said to a friend, as the dog showed fright. Now here's a story about that dog which is illustrative of the man, whose sense of dramatic proportion is most keen.
"Late Saturday night Scott sent for a friend and said: 'Bill, I want a dog. Not one with a pedigree, not one that knows any one; I want a dog that has no owner, that is, just a homeless, hungry cur, which hasn't had a square meal for a week, and doesn't know where it is going to get the next one. I want the most friendless, forlorn, unhappy yellow pup that you can find, and I want you to have it at my room early to-morrow.'
"That was the dog Scott led through the crowd in the hour of his greatest prominence. Scott smiled greetings to various friends. He did not head for the Pullman, but straight for the baggage car, where he called the conductor, and had the dog made fast, provided with water and given all the comforts of a Pullman special.
"More abashed by the vast crowd the dog hung back, but Scott coddled it, and said: 'Come along, pard, don't buck now. I'm going to give you a time that you'll remember all your life.'
"The frightened little animal looked whimperingly about the sea of faces and then at the countenance of the 'Man of the Earth,' the Death Valley human enigma. What he saw in the man's face satisfied him. With all his fear gone he trotted confidently after his new master, and never even looked a question as he was quartered in the baggage car. He had read Walter Scott's heart as most men read it who know him.
"After the dog was made comfortable, Scott started to go, presumably to the comfort of the Pullman, but that is not his manner. He swung off the baggage car -and, by the way, that dog will have the car entirely to himself - and headed for the locomotive. The crowd rushed after him. He climbed into the cab and gripped the grimy hand of Engineer Finley. 'Glad you're going to pull us, pard,' he said; 'guess you'll rush her along some. This is the same game we played coming in from Barstow. You're the best ever.' There was a rustle of crisp new bank notes, but that is not necessary for publication, and after greetings all along the crew of the machine, Scott climbed down and again there was a wild scramble of the curious onlookers as he made his way to the Pullman. As he climbed the steps there were shouts of 'Speech, Scotty!' and for the first time he showed a trace of self-consciousness.
"He came to a standstill on the platform and smilingly faced the throng. 'You all look good to me,' he said, heartily; 'I can't shake hands with you all, but I wish you good-by and good luck,' and he shook hands with himself, waving his hands toward the crowd in a farewell.
"Whatever they may have thought about Scott's sense in spending his money to make a railway record, he had the people with him. His alert, unpretentious personality, his way of doing something, even if it were a folly; the indomitability of his character and his hearty amiability had won their hearts, and they cheered him again and again.
"Meanwhile the Santa Fe officials were busy. General Passenger Agent John J. Byrne, who had conducted this tremendous sporting event, which will form the most striking advertisement the Santa Fe Company possibly could obtain; General Superintendent Hibbard, Chief Clerk Heid of the passenger department, City Ticket and Passenger Agent McGee, Division Superintendent John Hitchcock and Assistant General Manager Brewer were among those who assisted in seeing that everything was set right for the trip over this division.
" 'The time from here to Barstow is scheduled at three hours and twenty minutes,' said General Superintendent Hibbard, 'but we are liable to cut that down. I figure the trip through at about fifty-two hours. If we cut that it will be a wonder. There is a stretch of 200 miles of track from Derby to La Junta where we will shake him up a bit. I expect that the indicator will show seventy-five or eighty miles an hour along there.
"'We have arranged a clear track for miles ahead of him. Every switch will be watched and a man will be at every crossing with a flag, so there will be no slowing up.
" 'Safe? Why the train is safer than a regular train. We have got a good bit at stake in getting her through in safety. We will not take any wild chances with it, but that train will go to Chicago - well, you wait and watch the returns.'
"All the same, just as the engine pulled out, an insurance agent was sent for by the company and instructed to write an accident policy on Scott's life for $10,000 in favor of the Santa Fe Company.
"For forty odd hours its system must be practically surrendered to Scott's train. While traffic can be performed on some sections, all must be subordinated to the special. By the time it pulls into Chicago sixteen full crews of trainmen, or eighty-five men, will have been employed. It will have been pulled by sixteen different engines. All along the line the station agents and telegraphers will be kept on watch during the time the train is on their sections and divisions. Every switch and every crossing of road or railway will be under watch, and, more than all, the entire detective force of the company will be on guard.
"How much cash Scott has with him no one but himself knows. It certainly is a large amount, for he never carries drafts or checks. His pockets had a very enticing bulge yesterday, and his favorite place for carrying his roll - the inside pockets in his blue shirts - were distinctly overcrowded.
" 'Well, you Examiner boys are satisfied, I hope,' said Scott to a newspaper friend, just before the train left, 'When you had me on the wire at Barstow on Thursday I told you not to worry; that I'd make the trip all right, but that I wanted to know I would get what I paid for.
"'I keep hearing that I have got some scheme, something to sell, and that this is advertising myself. I can't help the advertising. I wanted to do this and I am going to do it. But if people make it their business it is not my fault.
" 'I want to tell you again that I have nothing to sell. No one can buy my mine for any price, for it is as good as any quantity of money to me. I have it safe, and have kept its location secret for a long time. But I'm not foolish enough to imagine that I can keep it to myself much longer. This fall will see a rush into my region such as has never been seen before; but my mine is safe, and I have got enough to last me.
" 'When the boys find my district it will be up to them. But I had to find it myself, and it was no picnic. See here,' and he rolled up the sleeve of his blue shirt and showed an angry-looking scar. 'I woke up one morning in my bed on the sands - hot sands, too - and on my bare arm was a rattlesnake. He looked at me as I moved and I looked at him. He did not seem to like my face, for before I could move he had sunk his fangs in my arm where you see that scar. I whipped out my knife and first did for the snake, for he irritated me. Then I slashed open my arm and sucked the wound. It bothered me a few days, but that's all. Those are the sort of things you meet with in a desert life, so it seems right a man should be well paid for staying in such a country. Maybe I am foolish in traveling this way and hunting fun and comfort; but, my boy, if you had spent so many years alone, in utter isolation, maybe people would say you were silly for spending a little money when you had come into more than you could get rid of even in buying trains. Well, so long. See you when I come back.'
"There was the grip of a powerful hand and a smile, the bell rang, the crowd cheered, and Scott, the mystery of Death Valley, had started to make the quickest journey on record from Los Angeles to New York, with the prospect ahead of him of many impossibilities to be accomplished. That is all he wants to be told in order to do something - that it is impossible.
"The Scott party comprises: Mr. Walter Scott, Mrs. Walter Scott, Mr. C.E. Van Loan. His entourage comprises: 1 engineer, 1 fireman, 1 train conductor, 1 Pullman conductor, 1 dining car conductor, 1 brakeman, 1 Pullman porter, 1 chef, 2 assistant cooks, 2 waiters, 1 dog and 1 stowaway."
CHAPTER V.
Story Of The Dog That Ate In A Diner.
Menu.
Caviar Sandwich a la Death Valley.
Iced Consomme.
Porterhouse Steak a la Coyote, two inches thick, and a Marvel of Tenderness.
Broiled Squab on Toast, with Strips of Bacon au Scotty.
Stuffed Tomatoes.
Ice Cream with Colored Trimmings.
Cheese. Coffee. Cigars.
"On board the Coyote Special, Williams, A. T., July 9. - Conductor A. L. Dunklin in charge, Trainmaster J. Kinucan, third district, on board.
"The Arizona moon is looking down on the Coyote now. Heaviest mountain division in front of us. Engineer Charlie Wood is running wide open, bent on keeping the Coyote ahead of the Examiner 46-hour schedule.
"Running seventy miles an hour at present, and she will do eighty between Winona and Winslow, forty-three miles. Old 485 is waiting at Williams with Dave Lenhart at the throttle. Four hundred and eighty-five is the fastest engine on the third district of the Albuquerque division. They call 485 the shadow down here. Lenhart is the man who took the Lowe special over the mountains. No sleep to-night. The 'Shadow' will make eighty miles an hour without a struggle. Scott woke up in time to climb over the tender and hand Engineer Jackson a $20 gold piece.
" 'Why?' said he - 'Well, I think Jackson earned it. Almost two hours ahead of the best time ever made so far. Nothing but a breakdown can keep the Coyote from smashing the Peacock special's time by twelve hours.'
"Scotty is passing out the celebrated yellowback cigars and offering to bet even money, no limit, that we make it in forty-five hours.
"The stray dog does not like the game. He howls dismally in the baggage coach ahead. It might have been more charitable to have allowed the newspaper stowaway to keep him company.
"It seems a long time since we left Los Angeles. Passed through Ash Fork at 11.34 1-2, Los Angeles time. Big crowd there to cheer the Coyote. Railroad time jumped an hour at Seligman. In just nine hours and forty-eight minutes the Coyote ran down one hour in its great dash across the country.
"Four hundred and sixty miles of mountain and plain in 588 minutes, including stops. Great railroading. E. J. Gibson, division superintendent, is sitting up at Williams to carry the Coyote through to Albuquerque.
"Scotty says: 'No common yap of a cowpuncher ever got such a run as this for his money.' I can see where he is right.
"On board the Coyote Special, Crozier Canyon, 9:35 p. m., July 9. - Walter Scott has just called the dining crew into the Fullman and made them the following characteristic speech: 'Men, it's going to be pretty rough sledding to-night, and I hear that you have no place to sleep in that diner. Come right in here and make yourselves at home. If she skips the ditch you'll stand a better chance back here in the sleeper than you will there.'
"Now, that's a nice comfortable speech to go to sleep on, isn't it? It is some satisfaction to know that every train crew is composed of picked men - the best to be had in the different divisions.
"These old railroad men are wonders. They know that they are making railroad history which will stand for years - they know they are setting a mark which may never be lowered by this sort of equipment, and yet they treat the whole thing as a part of the day's work.
"There is no wild enthusiasm excepting at the stations where the great crowds cheer as the Coyote special sweeps through the dark Arizona night. On board the train everything is taken as a matter of course. The conductor says that the train is doing well - very well. The impassive darkies grin and say nothing. And yet the Scott special is writing railroad history to-night.
"She is making marvelous time over a mountain division which was washed out no later than last winter. Most of the track is new track, yet there has been no slackening of the terrific speed.
"Engineer Jackson is a man to be proud of.
"Nine-fifty, Los Angeles time. Just passed through Cherokee. These little towns flit by like a handful of sparks in the night. At times the cheers of the watchers penetrate the Pullman. Scotty is sleeping. This man of iron seems able to lie down and sleep like a child at any time. He has no nerves - no imagination.
"His last words before dropping off were: 'How do you like it as far as she's hopped?' But while the miner sleeps the Sante Fe system is awake. Men are patrolling every mile of the track ahead of the Coyote; a man stands at every switch.
"There will be no sleep for roadmasters and section bosses until the special has passed. Arizona is sitting up with the Coyote to-night.
"On board the Coyote Special, Seligman, A. T., July 9. - Needles broke the record for short stops. W. H. Mills, trainmaster for the new division, rehearsed his little program and had everything in readiness when the Coyote showed up some miles away.
"Incredible as it may seem, Gallegher took old 1005 away and 1010, the new engine, had the Coyote on the move again in exactly one minute by the watch.
"But things can happen in one minute. The cowboy Croesus showed himself at the door of his coach and immediately there was a wild stampede to catch a glimpse of the now famous miner. Three very black gentlemen stationed themselves at the step of the coach and sang a short song about Scotty and Engineer Gallegher and Pharoah in the bullrushes.
"It was a very touching little ditty, winding up with the rather suggestive refrain -
"'Hand down your roll, hand down your roll, He don't care for money - no more than a chunk of coal.'
"Being thus publicly 'called,' Scotty gave up a ten-spot and the surging crowd cheered. Then Engineer Jackson put one brawny hand on the throttle and inaugurated what has proved to be the roughest 54-mile run of the trip.
"Needles caught one glimpse of the Coyote and that was all. Engineer Jackson was off about his business.
"As the train pulled out of the station, the little party gathered in the diner. Scotty, his wife, Frank N. Holman and the 'Examiner' correspondent. It is a well-known fact that the Pullman diner is costing Walter Scott exactly one thousand large iron dollars. It can be said for the Harvey system, that they are certainly trying to give the hungry quartet Scott's money's worth.
"But before I tell you about that dinner, I want to free my mind concerning that man Jackson - Engineer F.W. Jackson, of the Arizona division. He is a great engineer. I will swear to this and offer one badly damaged pair of trousers in evidence. Any man who will yank three cars at such a rate of speed that he upsets a whole course in the dining-car must be a great engineer.
"Running through the bad lands between Needles and the Colorado River, Jackson opened her wide and let her go. When a tremendous lunge wiped the table clean of everything except the cloth and deposited one stuffed tomato upside down in my lap, Walter Scott laughed out loud and smote the swimming table with his clenched fist.
"'That's the dope,' he shouted. 'That engineer's all right. I'll bet those two men are just holding the nozzle wide open with one hand and shaking hands with the other. That's what Finley and that other sport were doing - shaking hands with each other coming down the Cajon Pass at ninety-six miles an hour.'
"Have you ever eaten a dinner that you had to hold down with both hands to keep it out of the aisle? Have you ever seen the saltcellers play ping-pong with each other? It is not conducive to a healthy appetite. One gets to wondering what would happen if an engine should take the ditch going at that rate of speed.
"I looked over at Conductor Tom Brayil, and it was a great relief to an amateur record-breaker to note that he was still smiling.
" 'Jackson doesn't know a curve when he sees one,' called the conductor across the car. 'The whole road looks straight to him.'
"Now that's going some," said Haswell, laying down his paper, "but for me, Captain Tom Baldwin and his airship. No curves, or grades and - maybe - no bumps. If you do, you will never know it, as Baldwin said to me the first parachute jump he ever made. Well, good night; I'll read you more to-morrow evening." With that, Old Jim made a bee-line to the Burbank to see Ollie Morosco and perchance talk shop for an hour or two.
Leaving the Orpheum the next evening after enjoying a good show, I met my friend Haswell again with a Spring Street smile and another dispatch proof from Van Loan, the "Examiner' man. We journeyed down to the Hollenbeck, as I had an appointment with Rol King, the genial manager of that famous old hostelry. When we entered we discovered our 'Frisco friends, Axtell and Peters, playing a game of pinocle while waiting to hear more news of Scotty, as Haswell had promised. "Well, here we are," says Jim, as he drew up his chair and commenced to unfold the news. "Now then, gentlemen, be seated, as the main guy in the minstrels says. Here goes."
CHAPTER VI.
A NERVE-RACKING NIGHT.
"Twelve tortuous miles below Needles the Santa Fe crosses the Colorado River on a steel cantilever bridge - a marvel of modern engineering, flung solidly across a wide, tawny stream. Engineer Jackson swung over that twisting track at 65 miles an hour and the glasses leaped in the diner. A rush of sound, a creaking of bridge timbers, and with a dull whirl the Coyote found Arizona soil.
"Three hours of hard mountain railroading brought us to Seligman, where we picked up an hour. Division Superintendent Gibson climbed into the pullman, and his first facetious words were: 'What detained you?' Jackson's dare devil run will go down in song and story as the most spectacular dash of the western section.
"Then began the real fight of the trip - a war against heavy grades. Clouds of sparks whirled by the windows - the little Arizona towns wink once as the Coyote passed. It was here, they said, that we were to win or lose, for if we could make the schedule up and down the divides which separate Seligman from Albuquerque, win over the famous Glorieta Pass, and hold our own on the Raton Mountains, the record was ours beyond question.
"It is impossible, recalling the events of that nerve-racking night, to pick out for special mention the names of the railroad heroes who won for their road a victory over those grim Arizona mountains.
"I only know that from time to time crews of stern-visaged men succeeded one another, that engines were changed in record haste, and that Division
Superintendent Gibson, heavy-jawed, laconic, and resourceful, rode the train, alert, confident, and conquering. Outside the cool mountain wind swept through the stunted pines and over all twinkled the clear stars of the great Southwest.
"There was no sleep on board the Coyote that night. In far-off cities tireless presses were reeling off the story of the flying Coyote, and on board the train 'Van' hammered away at his staggering typewriter, clicking off the tale of the run which now belongs to railroad history.
"It was not until the first switch at the outer edge of the Albuquerque yards clattered beneath the flying wheels that Superintendent Gibson smiled.
" 'I've brought you over the Albuquerque Division 34 minutes faster than any train ever went over it before,' said he, as he bade us good-by. He had beaten the time of the Lowe Special by 34 minutes; he expected to beat it by 30.
"The two Indian villages between Albuquerque and Lamy have never seen a train dropped down a hill at such a rate of speed. Engineer Ed Sears was at the throttle, and every inch of the track is well known to this big engineer. A helper engine swung in at Lamy for the climb to the top of the Glorieta, one of the steepest grades in the entire run - 158 feet to the mile. Back in the Pullman, Trainmaster Jim Kurn grinned as he greeted Scott.
" 'Here's where you get a touch of real mountain railroading,' said he, 'and we're going to beat the schedule if we have to sidetrack that dining-car. She's got another hot-box.'
" 'Sure,' said Scott. 'If she smokes any more, cut 'er out!'
"A few minutes later the Coyote struck the Apache Canyon, a wild bit of mountain country, memorable as the scene of many an Indian fight. At the rate of 40 miles an hour the train climbed the incline; there was a few seconds delay as the helper engine dropped out, and then began the 'real mountain railroading.'
"Down the steep grade, Sears drove his engine, the white mile-posts flashing by at the rate of one every minute. The whole train lurched and staggered over the reverse curves, the typewriter carriage banged from side to side and the passengers, looking at each other, smiled. It seemed that the train must leave the track as it took those great curves and from the diner came a negro, blanched almost white. 'Ah's seen a lot ob railroadin', fus an' las,' said he, 'but runnin' lak dis is plumb ridiculous! Jess plumb ridiculous!' It was impossible to stand up in the leaping, swaying Pullman. One man tried it, his shoulder went through the window. After that we were all content to sit still and hang on. Only Jim Kurn was calm. He knew Sears' reputation for careful running, but it seems to me the engineer crowded the limit hard that morning. None of us were sorry when the train stopped at Las Vegas.
"At Raton, Jim Kurn said good-by.
" 'You're a long way ahead of that schedule now,' he said, 'and it won't be our fault if the people east of here don't shoot you into Chicago on time! It's hard work fighting these mountains twenty-three hours out of every twenty-four, but show me a mountain railroad man who wants a job on a plains division! Good luck!'
"Two engines took the Coyote at Raton. The time of the change was a trifle over a minute, and we were off again. 'Hud' Gardner is another mountain engineer who knows the game. He brought us into La Junta at 5:13, hours ahead of schedule and the worst part of the journey behind us.
"East of La Junta lies the Santa Fe 'race track.' It is here that trains are supposed to make time. With a straight track, the Kansas plains lying level as a floor and a good roadbed underneath, the Coyote took up the second part of the journey.
With engineers Lesher, Simmons, Norton, and Halsey alternating in the cab, all the way from La Junta to Newton, the new and mighty balanced-compounds whizzed down the Arkansas Valley. 'Scotty' rode the engine into Dodge, with the telegraph poles looking like a fine-tooth comb. It was from Dodge he wired President Roosevelt:
" 'An American cowboy is coming East on a special train faster than any cowpuncher ever rode before. How much shall I break transcontinental record?'
"All that Monday night the miles flew from under the whirring wheels; in places at the rate of 85 and 90 miles an hour; the average for 300 miles being a mile every 50 seconds. The great Kipling once wrote the story of a record-breaking run East over this same road. It is a part of his 'Captain Courageous.' It was fiction, but it reads like fact. That is because Kipling wrote it. On almost every point in his narrative of the fictitious run I can say he tells the truth. He says, however, that 'the ties ripple and surge away behind the flying train,' and for once he is wrong. Given a reasonably straight piece of roadbed, and the faster the train goes the smoother it goes. And the ties do not ripple and surge away behind it. The roadbed just slips away, as the paper slips from the roller of a big newspaper press. That was the way it slipped from under the wheels of the flying Scott Special.
"Josiah Gossard, who has been an engineer on the Santa Fe for twenty-three years, took the train from Emporia to Argentine in the quickest time over made between those two points - 124 miles in 130 minutes, notwithstanding four slow orders and several grade crossings. Gossard has a medal, recently presented by the Shriners, for making up one and a half hours of lost time on their special - Newton to Kansas City.
"It was nearly eight o'clock Tuesday morning when the Coyote crossed the Mississippi. The end was almost in sight now.
"We had taken on another engineer at Fort Madison shops, just on the western edge of Illinois. He was a German named Losee. As a fine finisher in the stretch you will look a long time for his equal. Stolid, modest, destitute of nerves, he is the direct antithesis of the dare-devil engineer of fiction.
"With Losee at the throttle and a straightaway stretch to the wire, the Coyote cut loose for the run home across the State of Illinois. They knew all about 'Scotty' and his private train in Illinois. And so they made a holiday of that July morning, and every little hamlet along the line from Shopton to Chicago turned out to cheer the Coyote on to the goal.
"It was an ovation all through Illinois. And Losee was earning every bit of it. The special had made some splendid miles in Colorado and Kansas. She was to outdo them all in Illinois. Losee ran engine No. 510 from Fort Madison to Chillicothe, 105 miles, in 101 minutes, changing at the latter point to clear track into Chicago, with every switch spiked and the entire operating department standing on its toes 'rooting.'
" 'Scotty' rode a part of the distance on the engine with Losee, and helped the fireman feed coal into the furnace.
"From the little hamlet of Cameron to the still smaller one of Surrey is 2.8 miles. 'She' made it in one minute and thirty-five seconds, at the rate of 106 miles an hour. The world's record before had been held by the Pennsylvania road, which covered the 2.5 miles between Landover and Anacosta in 102-miles-an-hour time. That was in August, 1895.
"We lost five minutes at Chillicothe, and four more at South Joliet. Nevertheless, we made the run of 239 miles from Shopton to the Dearborn Street station in Chicago in 239 minutes. "The record-breaking run was ended!"
Yes, I believe the same applies. My only point was that labeling such a forthright and specific claim as spin when you assert it to be false seems like trying let the AT&SF off the hook in favor of blaming the alleged false speed claim on Scotty because his reputation for exaggeration makes it easy to do so.
BucyrusSo they were either telling the truth or lying.
Hankey makes the point that the speed claim must be false because Walter Scott has poor credibility. Indeed, that seems to be a part of his career. Yet, as the account above posted by wanswheel clearly shows, the speed claim was made by AT&SF. I am not sure if Scott even made the 106mph claim himself. But since AT&SF did, the issue of credibility rests with them. No problem; Hankey dismisses the AT&SF claim as corporate spin. But is spin the right word for it? The AT&SF clearly stated the speed record as a well-detailed fact. So they were either telling the truth or lying.
Can't be sure that ad is from an LA paper. If the round-trip fare was $110 from LA, that likely was off-peak or something. And probably didn't include the Pullman charges?
Wanswheel's ATSF advertisement is pretty interesting in itself. SF offers a trip, Chicago to LA and return, for $110.00. Although slower than Scotty's run, it would be more luxurious. My handy inflation calculator says $110 in 1906 equals $2634.44 in 2010.
Fast forward to today. Amtrak sells the same trip round for $1406.00.That includes a first class room and free meals in the diner. And maybe best of all, it's even faster than Scotty, 43 hours flat, eastbound and only 15 minutes longer going west.
BTW, Scotty spent the 2010 equivalent of $143,696.72
NY Times articles...
MINER STARTS COSTLY TRIP
LOS ANGELES, Cal., July 9. -- With a yellow dog decorated with a thousand-dollar collar on board as a mascot, Miner Walter Scott's skyrocket special train got away exactly on schedule time at 1 o'clock this afternoon on its trial for the record of forty-five hours for the 2,265 miles between Los Angeles and Chicago.
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F50C11FD3B5E12738DDDA90994DF405B858CF1D3
CHICAGO MOB SCARES DEATH VALLEY CROESUS
CHICAGO, Ill., July 11. -- Walter Scott, the Croesus of Death Valley, was mobbed by more than 1,000 men and women when his Santa Fe special from Los Angeles shot into the Polk Street station six minutes ahead of schedule time at 11:54 to-day.
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F70912FE345913738DDDAB0994DF405B858CF1D3
SCOTT OF DEATH VALLEY IN WALL ST. -- AND OUT
Walter Scott, alias "Scotty Swift," of Death Valley, arrived in town yesterday on the Twentieth Century Limited. The reason why he did not break the record between Chicago and New York was because the railway companies would not take him, he says.
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F60C16F63F5512738DDDAC0994DF405B858CF1D3
Bucyrus As has been suggested, the proper analysis of this speed record claim is the relationship between horsepower and total train weight, including the weight of the locomotive. The main challenge is to determine the horsepower. Generally, I do not see much analysis of horsepower for steam locomotives. Diesels produce their maximum horsepower when the throttle is wide open under maximum loading. Steamers develop more horsepower the faster they go, up to the point where they can’t burn fuel any faster. I do recall some intense discussions here on the forum about horsepower versus tractive effort. The beauty of it was that you could always tell when the correct mathematical conclusions were reached because everybody was in perfect agreement.
Generally, I do not see much analysis of horsepower for steam locomotives. Diesels produce their maximum horsepower when the throttle is wide open under maximum loading. Steamers develop more horsepower the faster they go, up to the point where they can’t burn fuel any faster. I do recall some intense discussions here on the forum about horsepower versus tractive effort. The beauty of it was that you could always tell when the correct mathematical conclusions were reached because everybody was in perfect agreement.
There was quite a bit of steam locomotive horsepower from the 30's and 40's, not so much from 1900. The horsepower peak for modern freight locomotives was typically around 40 to 50 MPH, with power dropping off above that presumably due to pressure drop related to steam flow through the valves and cylinders. I would think driver diameter would have an affect on high speed power as a larger diameter would reduce the valve operating speed.
Having an accurate figure for drawbar horsepower doesn't do much good without an accurate figure for train resistance, with aero drag being a major component at that speed. Local wind conditions would be important, a 20 MPH tail wind would bring the aero drag component down to 86 MPH equivalent.
To put matters in perspective: Less than 30 years later, the Milwaukee was running much larger passengers trains with daily top speeds over 100MPH with an Atlantic, albeit one huge Atlantic with higher pressure superheated steam.
- Erik
It is interesting that Mr. Hankey flatly asserts that the speed record would have been physically impossible, with his only verification being that it is the “opinion” of Bill Withuhn.
Mr. Hankey has vaguely implied that the firebox size on the AT&SF engine was not large enough to achieve the claimed speed record. And apparently, the assessment of the firebox inadequacy is based on the fact that this was a relatively small firebox compared to more modern locomotives. But just because more modern locomotives had bigger fireboxes, it does not necessarily follow that they were capable of higher speeds. Locomotive development was not an evolution toward higher and higher speeds, as this firebox size issue tries to assert. Instead, the development evolution was toward the ability to pull ever-greater train weights at typical road speed limits.
So the size of the AT&SF engine’s firebox relative to later fireboxes is irrelevant to the speed record claim. Compared to later engines, the AT&SF engine did have a smaller firebox, but it was also a lighter locomotive, and train weight was relatively lighter. We are talking about a train weight of 170 tons. That is only a little more the just one of today’s loaded cover hoppers.
As has been suggested, the proper analysis of this speed record claim is the relationship between horsepower and total train weight, including the weight of the locomotive. The main challenge is to determine the horsepower.
henry6... in a manner that draws conversation and questions.
Well, he certainly succeeded there...
The basic question regarding the locomotive's capacity, IMHO, comes down to whether or not it had sufficient reserve to maintain speed (60-ish) at it's rated boiler pressure, and then enough latent capacity to power the locomotive up 106+ without dropping the boiler pressure to a point where it was a problem.
I looked for the drawbar horsepower of that particular class of locomotive, but didn't find it.
It might be useful to consider what is required to move a 349 ton train at that speed. Using a chart found in John Armstrong's "The Railroad, What It Is, What It Does," (page 50), you can estimate it would take 1400 horsepower to move a 349 ton train 100 mph. Using the formula HPx308/ 100 (mph) = TE, the result is a need for 4312 lbs TE. Yes, I know the speed was 106.1 mph, but for illustration an even 100 mph is sufficient.
First I ask anyone with engineering ability to debunk or improve upon these figures. I am no engineer and don't claim to know a lot about it.
Second, assuming my figures are in the ballpark, the question is whether the SF 4-4-2 could achieve that performance. Note it is a saturated steamer, with only 49.5 sqft grate area. Its TE was rated at only 22,200 lbs.
It is worthwhile to note that PRR E6 5075 was tested and published results show drawbar pull declining as speed increases, falling to 3300 lbs at 95 mph. For the test 5075 was hand fired and had no superheater.
Finally, somebody call Juniatha. She could add some light to this thread and be entertaining, too!
Hankey is an academic and not a reporter. He presents the various factors and recitations and tries to come to a conclusion based on them in a manner that draws conversation and questions.
Bucyrus Considering the replies in this thread, I think it is fair to say that we all agree that there is insufficient evidence to prove whether the speed record was true or false. All you can do is believe one way or the other; or simply not come to a conclusion. So it is a fundamental truth that there are only those three choices. Therefore, when somebody says they have debunked the speed record, that claim has to be false. So it is remarkable that we have a thread where everyone agrees on something. Clearly, Mr. Hankey has not debunked the 106.1 mph speed record.
So it is remarkable that we have a thread where everyone agrees on something. Clearly, Mr. Hankey has not debunked the 106.1 mph speed record.
Bucyrus makes a good summarizing conclusion. Hankey's attempt todebunk hasn't succeeded.I think we should cut him some slack. He is evidently a reporter, nota principal, in this matter. His job is difficult, as is everybody'swho practices journalism or history.As much as I enjoy railroad history, I prefer the history of theMedieval times. The main advantage: *all* those people are dead, andso are all the people who might have strong feelings about them.<smile>BTW Bucyrus: I grew up in Shelby.
Considering the replies in this thread, I think it is fair to say that we all agree that there is insufficient evidence to prove whether the speed record was true or false. All you can do is believe one way or the other; or simply not come to a conclusion. So it is a fundamental truth that there are only those three choices.
Therefore, when somebody says they have debunked the speed record, that claim has to be false.
..or 8-10 seconds!
henry6 To rephrase my point: can the final average speed be broken down enough to find out how fast the train had to be going on the segment in question to support the average speed as publicized?
To rephrase my point: can the final average speed be broken down enough to find out how fast the train had to be going on the segment in question to support the average speed as publicized?
Given the admittedly brief duration of the run (90 seconds), plus the possiblity of slow orders and other restrictions even within that crew district, I'd opine that even during the time that just that engineer was running, the total time elapsed would probably not be apparent.
Even considering acceleration and deceleration, the entire burst of speed probably didn't exceed 8-10 miles.
Sunnyland I glanced at the article and haven't read it in depth yet. But I did see a graph with the different engines that were used listed and average speed. In some places, maybe one engine did go faster than in another place. I was on UP City of St. Louis west of Green River, WY with my parents and a guy in the dome car was clocking mileposts and we were doing 100 mph. It was straight track and they were making up time. This is when the waiters were dropping dishes in the diner earlier, which meant something unusual was happening. Our trip didn't average 100 mph, but on that stretch we did. No speed limits in those days, except ones UP put in place on their own, I guess. It was a diesel of course, but I know I've heard of a famous steamer running over 100 mph in the early 1900's. It's an interesting article, in fact the whole issue has a lot of goodies. My parents and I saw the General when she was visiting different cities in 1962.
I glanced at the article and haven't read it in depth yet. But I did see a graph with the different engines that were used listed and average speed. In some places, maybe one engine did go faster than in another place.
I was on UP City of St. Louis west of Green River, WY with my parents and a guy in the dome car was clocking mileposts and we were doing 100 mph. It was straight track and they were making up time. This is when the waiters were dropping dishes in the diner earlier, which meant something unusual was happening. Our trip didn't average 100 mph, but on that stretch we did. No speed limits in those days, except ones UP put in place on their own, I guess. It was a diesel of course, but I know I've heard of a famous steamer running over 100 mph in the early 1900's.
It's an interesting article, in fact the whole issue has a lot of goodies. My parents and I saw the General when she was visiting different cities in 1962.
If nothing better than Automatic Block or Manual Block (CTC was no better) was in service, passenger trains were limited to 79 mph and freights were limited to 59 mph. If there was no signal protection, passenger trains were limited to 59 mph and freights were limited to 49 mph.
Johnny
I am going with Hankey and Bill Withuhn and their view that the 106mph is suspect. Withuhn appearantly has sufficient knowledge of thermodynamics to be able to run calculations. (quote) "Years ago, he ran calculations to determine the power output..."
The specs for Baldwin built Santa Fe 4-4-2 No. 507, basically identical to No. 510, can be seen here- http://www.catskillarchive.com/rrextra/blatpg23.Html I don't know if there are any professional mechanical engineers with good knowledge of thermodynamics now on the forum, but I'd expect that the specs on the engine would provide the necessary data to run maximum speed calculations.
This Wikipedia entry on the special includes the running times for each crew district. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Special Note the Shopton, IA to Chillicothe, IL segment which includes Cameron to Surrey-104.7 miles was run in 1hr 41min for an average speed of 62.3 MPH. Not clear, but I assume the segment times include engine change.
Today the Amtrak Southwest Chief is scheduled to make the run from Fort Madison to Galesburg, for the most part ex-Santa Fe-58 miles in 59 minutes or just under 60MPH. Amtrak is limited to a top speed of 79 MPH on that run, but has much lower limits over the ex-Santa Fe to ex-Burlington interchange tracks at Cameron and from Cameron to the Galesburg station. The time also includes the station stop at Galesburg.
My thought: If the Scott Special was not subject to any speed limit on tangent track and the engineers were allowed to take curves as fast as their experience said they could do, what held them down to an average speed now almost matched by an operation with a top speed limit of 79MPH. If the Santa Fe No. 501 could run at a steady 90MPH, why would the average speed be not better than the 62.3 as reported.
I am not going to argue that accurate clocking of the run between Cameron and Surrey would not have been possible, but there doesn't seem to be any record of who clocked the time. The sidebar notes that it was not included in the dispatches of the on-board reporter. Aside from the Booklet put out by the Santa Fe (availble as a pdf as part of the preview of the magazine), newspapers reporting on the special made no note of the speed. So what was the origin? Hankey makes good points in suggesting it was just corporate spin.
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
Bucyrus I get the impression that some people believe that because earlier locomotives were relatively smaller, pulled less, and were less modern, it had to also follow that they were slower. From what I have read, the opposite is closer to the truth because the smaller locomotives were easier to balance.
Bucyrus: good point --- would like to add that those engines also had very large driving wheels which enabled slower piston travel.
I think what we have accomplished here is to confirm what Mortimer J Adler said about a "historical fact" being a very difficult thing to nail down. All of the people involved are long dead, the company is merged away into BNSF years ago, all the equipment used was scarped years ago. Other than the tracks, all there is left of this incident are the accounts of it. We cannot successfully refute any of it, since none of us were there. We can only speculate.
George
I finally got around to reading the story last night. Coupling all that has been said here and what was said in the article I come up with what has not been said, and could point to the soluition or at least some kind of answer. We know the exact time LA to Chi. and the elapsed time. I gather that there are numerous point to point speeds recorded with the one, the 106.1 mph one, in question. I am sure there must be an Einstien or other mathimatical wizard out there who could or have access to computer program that could, take all the known times and speeds and figure what other speeds, or if this particular segment speed, had to be achieved to total the LA to Chi avreage and exact. I can type, not well, but I can type, I cannot do major math after I take my shoes and socks off, so maybe one of you out there could "add" a little help.
I get the impression that some people believe that because earlier locomotives were relatively smaller, pulled less, and were less modern, it had to also follow that they were slower. From what I have read, the opposite is closer to the truth because the smaller locomotives were easier to balance. So, I have no problem believing that, for the best 1905 passenger locomotives, 100 mph with two or three cars was a piece of cake. So, was 106 possible? How about 120? I don't know, but those speeds do not strike me as being far fetched.
1905 was not the beginning of railroading. It was well developed and had acquired quite the swagger by that period. It was a wild and bold era where risk-taking was fashionable, and delivering the big promise was part of that fashion. If one does not understand the railroad culture of that era, it might sound like too much to believe.
My take is the 106.1 mph claim is a "back of the envelope" type calculation made by someone riding the train. It may not be scientifically 100% accurate, but pretty darn close. At least over what Mr. Hankey claims the engine could do based on published data.
When it comes to the laws of physics or thermodynamics, I'm like Bugs Bunny. I never studied law. That being said, I do know that you can have identical machines built by the same company, same factory, same people, but work slightly differently. I know I've read in Trains, and elsewhere, of steam engines of the same class that fired differently. As an engineer I've had identical (on paper) trains that handled differently. Some roll with ease, some don't. One you can't maintain 50 mph in notch 8 while the next one you have to throttle down to avoid going over 50 mph at the same location.
It could well be that on the day and at the place the 100 mph plus speed was claimed everything, and I mean everything down to weather conditions were just right. That day they could do it, the day before or day after maybe not so well.
Something caught my attention in the sidebar. I know someone brought up that maybe there was an extra hand tossing coal into the fire that day. Certainly plausible if they thought ahead of time to "see what she could do" at a specific location thought to be ideal for that. Some of the published data on the engine, like grate area, heating surface, drive wheel diameter, etc is not subject to change. Of course there could be minute changes from manufacturing or repairs done, but that data is probably very close. But what about boiler pressure? That 220 psi is surely for the class of engine. While there is an absolute operating pressure, it's going to be higher than working pressure. I don't claim to know what it is, but what if the boiler could be carried safely at 230 psi? Maybe it wouldn't get them to 106 mph, but it might get them close to it, at least over the 90 mph Hankey claims is the best it could do. Those of you with the law degrees will have to argue that one.
I enjoyed the April issue. I do think it is stretching some of the articles to include them in "Railroading's 7 Greatest Myths and Legends" though. Track 61, Al Capone going to the pokey by train, or the RMS Titanic's (a subject that has filled many volumes with myth and legend itself) connection to railroading (I knew about the two executives, but didn't know of the architect) have never been on my radar for a list of railroad legends or myths. Excellent articles, but there are other subjects more worthy for such a list. Possibly some of those were not used because they have been featured before in the pages of Trains.
Jeff
Newtonian physics includes gravity so why worry if the boiler or any other kind of HP precludes the 106 mph. we had locomotives that it was said couldn't overspeed if they were run off of a cliff.
I set many an SP Coast Div clocks at 9:00 AM but never compared the elapsed time between points on our reporting, OS reports I mean, as evidence.
Consider that an ancient device: a mechanical stop-watch carried between the definig locations if accurateley manipulated......
The "stops" for the watch also generated problems....say between mile posts. After the Mojave-Colton By-Pass was completeded, everyone knew the mileposts signs were set by a crew driving the M of W paths, trails roads along side the new main.
I went home on Santa Fe's Grand Canyon Limited and some where on an Illinois winter afternoon in a few miles saw 32 to 35 second miles based on my ability to gage the passage of the mile posts and their accurate location.
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henry6 Timing is everything. What TRAINS was trying to do with this issue is deal with the great legends and stories from railroading through the times, back to a time when railroading was glitz, glamour, and romance of the rails ruled. Can you believe these stories? Well, do you want to? Railroading....and life...was not a binery or digital world of absolute bits and bytes but what a colorful and imaginary concoction of words and mind images created by words and deeds. It was as much fun as it was serious, but never dour. It was, well, a different time. As for the stories being true or not...read them again in Trains, search through history books and old magazines for the same stories as told in a different era...then decide for yourself what you want to believe and enjoy.
Timing is everything. What TRAINS was trying to do with this issue is deal with the great legends and stories from railroading through the times, back to a time when railroading was glitz, glamour, and romance of the rails ruled. Can you believe these stories? Well, do you want to? Railroading....and life...was not a binery or digital world of absolute bits and bytes but what a colorful and imaginary concoction of words and mind images created by words and deeds. It was as much fun as it was serious, but never dour. It was, well, a different time. As for the stories being true or not...read them again in Trains, search through history books and old magazines for the same stories as told in a different era...then decide for yourself what you want to believe and enjoy.
I couldn't have said it better myself. Well done sir!
Stand by boys, ol' Firelock's gonna throw some gasoline on the fire! In 1900 the Plant System (later acquired by the Atlantic Coast Line) was bidding against the Seaboard for a mail contract. Eight cars of mail were divided between the two roads at Savannah, the first to get their four cars to Jacksonville Florida would get the contract. Plant Systems #111, a 4-6-0, took over the Plant train at Fleming, Ga., and from Jesup to Jacksonville by way of Waycross, 115.9 miles, did the run in 90 minutes or at 77.3 mph. Between Screven and Satilla the time was 2 minutes and 30 seconds or 120 mph.
Plant System never claimed a speed record though. The mail contract was good enough.
I think "Death Valley" Scotty's generating a lot more controversy than he deserves. Cool character though!
BucyrusI do not see any reason to suspend this discussion until such time that Mr. Hankey can prove his debunking.
jpwoodruff .My suggestion would be to suspend this discussion until that data areavailable.
.My suggestion would be to suspend this discussion until that data areavailable.
And what fun would that be?....
jpwoodruff The abilities of the locomotive arethe only thing that will limit the speed, and that needs to bemeasured.My suggestion would be to suspend this discussion until that data areavailable.
The abilities of the locomotive arethe only thing that will limit the speed, and that needs to bemeasured.My suggestion would be to suspend this discussion until that data areavailable.
I do not see any reason to suspend this discussion until such time that Mr. Hankey can prove his debunking. By definition of debunk, he has already claimed to have proven it. This discussion is not to prove the AT&SF claim true. It is only to prove that Mr. Hankey has not proven it to be false. If anything should be suspended (or retracted), I think it should be Mr. Hankey’s assertion that he has debunked the AT&SF claim. There is no evidence that he has.
I'd like to stand with that proposition. Mr Hankey relies (ref above in this thread) on conversation with BillWithun, who is preparing a book for publication. That book has thedata BW needed to analyse two earlier claims (1893 & 1905). I thinkHankey and Withun extrapolate to the Scott train.As far as physics, if the engine will produce enough heat energy thenthe train will accelerate until the drag forces balance that energy.So Newton won't limit the speed. The abilities of the locomotive arethe only thing that will limit the speed, and that needs to bemeasured.My suggestion would be to suspend this discussion until that data areavailable.
timz,
So, if I understand you, Mr. Hankey has not refuted, disproved, or debunked the AT&SF 106.1 mph speed claim by the analytical use of science, mathematics, mechanical engineering, or thermodynamics.
BucyrusMr. Hankey claimed that the speed record was impossible because it would be a “pretty basic violation of Newtonian physics.” Surely we have some math wizards here who can confirm or deny Mr. Hankey’s claim.
BucyrusIf it is a “pretty basic violation,” as Mr. Hankey says, it ought to be pretty easy to run the numbers. Why do you say there is no way we can put the matter to rest?
In his discussion, do you see any numbers to "run", easily or hardly?
(Neither does anyone else.)
timz Bucyrus: ...we can move on to Hankey’s thermodynamic argument. As I recall there was no thermodynamics in his discussion. Bucyrus: After working our way through the Newtonian physics, we'll be able to put this matter to rest once and for all. He mentioned the term, but don't think any actual physics appeared in his discussion either. Even if it did, no way we can put any matter to rest, for all or for part.
Bucyrus:
...we can move on to Hankey’s thermodynamic argument.
Bucyrus: After working our way through the Newtonian physics, we'll be able to put this matter to rest once and for all.
Mr. Hankey claimed that the speed record was impossible because it would be a “pretty basic violation of Newtonian physics.” Surely we have some math wizards here who can confirm or deny Mr. Hankey’s claim. If it is a “pretty basic violation,” as Mr. Hankey says, it ought to be pretty easy to run the numbers. Why do you say there is no way we can put the matter to rest?
refutation
henry6 BaltACD: I think it is all based on the theory 'If you shout a lie loud enough and long enough some people begin to think it's the truth'. Seems to work in politics from time to time. henry6: tmz must look these things up for himself...we all have given him sources and noted variations of era, railroad, etc. Why do people here ask questions or pose problems and then refute the answers when they think we're wrong? Which is based on theory? The actual printed, taught, enforeced rules and rule books or peopl's refutation of the given answers they requested?
BaltACD: I think it is all based on the theory 'If you shout a lie loud enough and long enough some people begin to think it's the truth'. Seems to work in politics from time to time. henry6: tmz must look these things up for himself...we all have given him sources and noted variations of era, railroad, etc. Why do people here ask questions or pose problems and then refute the answers when they think we're wrong?
I think it is all based on the theory 'If you shout a lie loud enough and long enough some people begin to think it's the truth'. Seems to work in politics from time to time.
henry6: tmz must look these things up for himself...we all have given him sources and noted variations of era, railroad, etc. Why do people here ask questions or pose problems and then refute the answers when they think we're wrong?
tmz must look these things up for himself...we all have given him sources and noted variations of era, railroad, etc. Why do people here ask questions or pose problems and then refute the answers when they think we're wrong?
Which is based on theory? The actual printed, taught, enforeced rules and rule books or peopl's refutation of the given answers they requested?
BucyrusWell, once we get this timing issue nailed down...
Bucyrus...we can move on to Hankey’s thermodynamic argument.
BucyrusAfter working our way through the Newtonian physics, we'll be able to put this matter to rest once and for all.
Bucyrus timz: henry6: All clocks and watches were set to the second at noon EST everyday. They weren't, of course. Which of the six stipulations in Henry's statement are you refuting?
timz: henry6: All clocks and watches were set to the second at noon EST everyday. They weren't, of course.
henry6: All clocks and watches were set to the second at noon EST everyday.
Which of the six stipulations in Henry's statement are you refuting?
We've all seen pics of those SFe mercury-pendulum standard clocks with the signs "This Clock Is _ Seconds Slow/Fast". Obvious question: how far off were they allowed to be? Don't see any rule about that in my SFe books (which only go back to 1953).
CSSHEGEWISCH My college major was History, not one of the Sciences, and after completing Hankey's article, I observed that the Scott Special was publicized in a time where stretching the truth or inventing facts was tolerated much more than it is now. It may well have been expected by the public. Also keep in mind that the term "muckraker" was originally intended as a pejorative. Many of the "facts" of the Scott Special may not have been created out of thin air but the truth was probably stretched pretty badly in the process. As mentioned above, they can't be proved but they can't be disproved, either. Any speed claims from that run need to be taken with a grain of salt. At any rate, the Scott Special was an outstanding performance by the Santa Fe from both labor and management, and can be appreciated as such even if some of the claims can be discounted.
My college major was History, not one of the Sciences, and after completing Hankey's article, I observed that the Scott Special was publicized in a time where stretching the truth or inventing facts was tolerated much more than it is now. It may well have been expected by the public. Also keep in mind that the term "muckraker" was originally intended as a pejorative. Many of the "facts" of the Scott Special may not have been created out of thin air but the truth was probably stretched pretty badly in the process. As mentioned above, they can't be proved but they can't be disproved, either. Any speed claims from that run need to be taken with a grain of salt. At any rate, the Scott Special was an outstanding performance by the Santa Fe from both labor and management, and can be appreciated as such even if some of the claims can be discounted.
So true, Paul. Scotty may have paid Sante Fe to run the train but the PR department har more to do with the run than the operating department in cewrtain respects. There actually was no mass advertsing medium or media at the time, no coast to coast radio, tv, internet, no USA Today and few magazines which could be timely in circulation and with a large enough literate audience. Even the likes of Playboy would have failed for lack of photograpic reproduction. So, in order to get attention, a major stunt had to be invented which would be deemed newsworthy enough for the rags to pass onto their readers, and these were pretty much parochial. After the news release, was the reporters embellishment often fed by his own search for noteriety and money or by the PR agents pushing him.
BaltACD I think it is all based on the theory 'If you shout a lie loud enough and long enough some people begin to think it's the truth'. Seems to work in politics from time to time. henry6: tmz must look these things up for himself...we all have given him sources and noted variations of era, railroad, etc. Why do people here ask questions or pose problems and then refute the answers when they think we're wrong?
I think we will be sidetracked to discussion of the Gregorian calendar and the demise of the Wagner sleeping car first.
henry6 tmz must look these things up for himself...we all have given him sources and noted variations of era, railroad, etc. Why do people here ask questions or pose problems and then refute the answers when they think we're wrong?
Well, once we get this timing issue nailed down, we can move on to Hankey’s thermodynamic argument. After working our way through the Newtonian physics, we'll be able to put this matter to rest once and for all.
Stations in Canada were often equipped with what is known as a "standard clock" The station operator or agent would compare it with the time signal, but that did not mean he would reset the clock. There was also a card with a moveable disk and the dial would be rotated to indicate how many seconds slow, or fast, the clock was. In theory, at least, railroad grade watches and clocks should normally stay within that 30 second window between servicing.
From the CRI&P August 1904 Operating Rules.
Rule 1. Standard Time obtained from Washington observatory will be telegraphed to all points from designated offices at Twelve (12) o'clock, noon (Central Time), or Eleven (11) o'clock, a.m. (Mountain Time).
Rule 2 covers watch inspection and proper forms certifying same. Omitted.
Rule 3. Watches of Conductors and Enginemen must be compared, before starting on each trip, with a clock designated as a Standard Clock. The time when watches are compared, with variation, must be restistered on a prescribed form.
a. Conductors and Enginemen who have not access to A standard Clock must compare watches daily with those of Conductors and Enginemen who have Standard Time.
b. Conductors and Enginemen who have not opportunity to compare their watches with those of Conductors and Enginemen who have Standard Time, will call for and receive time from the Train Dispatcher daily before commencing work.
c. After obtaining time, Conductors and Enginemen must compare time with each other before starting on each trip or commencing the daily work.
Note that the variation must be registered, but it dosen't say the watch must be corrected to the correct time. It also doesn't mention, as the 1950 rules do, anything about the allowed variance. I have a CB&Q 1900 rule book that reads much the same, except the time is transmitted to all points in the afternoon, 4pm Central/3pm Mountain.
While there is a time standard, that dosen't mean to say that every clock and watch on the railroad were all synchronized to the exact second. The rules didn't require this, that's not to say you couldn't reset your watch if a few seconds off. That wasn't required, but you were required to know how far off you were when going on duty. The operating rules took this into consideration when requireing inferior trains to clear trains that were superior by right, class or direction by 5 or 10 minutes before their leaving time.
timz henry6: All clocks and watches were set to the second at noon EST everyday. They weren't, of course.
From the Rock Island Uniform Code of Operating Rules effective May 1, 1950
Rule 1.Standard time obtaiend from Washington, D. C., observatory will be transmitted to all points from designated offices at 11:00 A. M. Central Time, or 10:00 A. M. Mountain Time, daily.
Rule 2 concerns Watch Inspection. One paragraph reads: "When watches of employees subject to standard time rules are found at any time to be 30 seconds or more from standard time, they must be set to correct time." In other words, your watch could be as much as 29 seconds out from standard time--but you had better know how much and in which way.
Incidentally, stem-set watches were forbidded; only lever-set watches were allowed; when the lever was pulled out, the watch stopped running so that it was possible to set the watch exactly to the second, at which time the lever would be pushed back in. Even though it does not say so, another paragraph in Rule 2 covers the type of watch allowed: "Watches that have been examined and certified to by a designated inspector must be used by such officers and employes as are designated by such instructions. You can be sure that such an inspector had instructions as to the proper type of watch that could be used.
Rule 3 covers Time Comparison, stating that all employes subject to the time rules must compare their watches, if possible, with a standard clock before beginning their day's work; if such an employe has no access to a standard clock, he must compare his watch with that of an employe who has had such access. And, "When practicable conductors and engine foremen, and engineers will also compare time with each other and with trainmen, or yardmen, and firemen before commencing each day's work or trip." In other words, you had better know what time it is.
Granted, this rulebook became effective a few years after the fast run to Chicago, but it is entirely possible that such rules, or similar rules were in effect at the time of the run.
In the Trains sidebar that started this discussion. Hankey says DV Scotty's train passing Cameron weighed "a total of about 349 tons [including engine and tender]. Accelerating that mass to 106 mph is a pretty basic violation of Newtonian physics."
Which is a silly thing to say, of course. He twice says the 106 mph claim was "physically impossible"-- which could charitably be called sloppy writing. Far as I'm concerned no need to give his discussion much attention-- there may be a good point in there somewhere, but probably nothing new.
There never was any reason to believe the SFe claim, but proving it wrong isn't easy. Not enough evidence either way.
timz henry6: Anyone involved in the movement of trains had to have a quailified time piece and it had to be set to the second at noon in accordance with the Rules of The Operating Department. Find that rule in the book.
henry6: Anyone involved in the movement of trains had to have a quailified time piece and it had to be set to the second at noon in accordance with the Rules of The Operating Department.
You find it because you don't want to believe me.
henry6 Anyone involved in the movement of trains had to have a quailified time piece and it had to be set to the second at noon in accordance with the Rules of The Operating Department.
They were as a matter of course. Anyone involved in the movement of trains had to have a quailified time piece and it had to be set to the second at noon in accordance with the Rules of The Operating Department. When one could not set their watch by the noon (actually the count down started at 11:57AM and ended at noon straight, Eastern Standard Time) time setting procedure, he was to compare his timepiece with one that was so set and make it conform.
The Standard Code along with the Rules of the Operating Department of each railroad were taken seriously and adhered to. Whatever one did, someone elses job or performance depended upon as did the total operation and safety of all. It was taken seriously and you had to take a test on these rules to enter service and were continuously refreshed, updated, and tested on them to stay in service. Good enough wasn't good enough, you could't have a lapse in judgement, if you did, it would soon catch up with you; if not suspension of fireing, then in injury or death, if not to you then to another and you would be held accountable for any and all results.
I have a hard time understanding that so many can not understand how seriously rules, regulations and high standards were established and taken seriously and practiced without question. It was not a game, it is not a game, it is a performance of a job and a duty to do it safely and correctly. Todays rules and regulations are different but not less important, either. I don't understand the constant scoffing at such rules and regulations and the need for them and the need for them to be adhered to. Yes, there are times they are usless or invalid or incapapble of being applied and have to be suspeneded or side stepped; but that has to be done with a concept of the rule(s)...the whys and wherefores...before it can be abridged. But they cannot be ignored or unrespected out of hand.
Hate to bust your bubble - the work ethic of those that maintained clocks in those days was much stricter than what you see today. Those that maintained clocks took getting it right SERIOUSLY![
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henry6All clocks and watches were set to the second at noon EST everyday.
Think about this: Even if you are only keeping time to the minute, you have to regulate your clocks and watches to the exact minute. That means that everyone’s minute begins at the same second.
Otherwise, if you are one minute off what your watch calls for according to schedule; and if your watch is one minute off perfect time, then you are two minutes off schedule.
The standard telegraph daily time signal was an elaborate countdown to exactly the top of the hour to the second. Operators stood by ready to set their time to the exact second marking the top of the hour.
Here is an antique railroad watch, and it has a second hand:
http://0.tqn.com/d/antiques/1/0/u/Z/RailroadRepeater.jpg
No it was not giving the engineer a free wheeling hand but a restrictive hand. Free wheeling hand would be given with an order to "run extra" or to run to Albany. But this type order was a standard operating procedure to set a schedule for the train and to allow others to know the train was running, it was expected to be at or pass such and such a station by a particular time after which its rights were lost, that other trains and work crews had to clear or not clear according to rules and timetable instructions. If the train could not make the instructed schedule he would have to abide by other rules and regulaitons as prescribed by ruls and timetable instructions including but not limited to clearing the main until further ordered. The order was not just for the benefit of the train receiving the order(s) but also for every train, work crew, operators, agents, etc. affected duirng the time period and distance of the order. Train orders were precise instruments and not to allow any one to take matters into one's hand such as making better time than the timetable or the railroad structure or eqouiment would allow.
BaltACD I can't speak to what the ATSF procedures were in 1905....however, when I broke in, telegraph was still active on the division - At NOON every day a signal was sent over the telegraph wire that all locations with Standard Clocks and all telegraph operators that had clocks were required to set and regulate their clocks in accordance with the signal that was being sent. My understanding is that the signal originated from the Naval Observatory in Washington DC. What other carriers may have used I don't know, however, since Time was a routine statement in Time Table & Train Orders railroading I am certain there was a daily procedure for all clocks on the system to be synchronized.
I can't speak to what the ATSF procedures were in 1905....however, when I broke in, telegraph was still active on the division - At NOON every day a signal was sent over the telegraph wire that all locations with Standard Clocks and all telegraph operators that had clocks were required to set and regulate their clocks in accordance with the signal that was being sent. My understanding is that the signal originated from the Naval Observatory in Washington DC. What other carriers may have used I don't know, however, since Time was a routine statement in Time Table & Train Orders railroading I am certain there was a daily procedure for all clocks on the system to be synchronized.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
henry6 tree68: After coupling his steamer to a hot NYC passenger train at Harmon, an engineer got his orders: "Do not arrive in Albany before....." Actually that is a standard train order which sets a schedule for an extra train or a regulat train under special circumstances.
tree68: After coupling his steamer to a hot NYC passenger train at Harmon, an engineer got his orders: "Do not arrive in Albany before....."
After coupling his steamer to a hot NYC passenger train at Harmon, an engineer got his orders:
"Do not arrive in Albany before....."
Actually that is a standard train order which sets a schedule for an extra train or a regulat train under special circumstances.
My take (and, as I recall, the gist of the anecdote) was that the engineer had a free hand to run pretty much as fast as he wanted, but don't get to Albany early.
I'm sure there were other considerations (like ride quality, slow orders, etc) involved.
All clocks and watches were set to the second at noon EST everyday. OS'ing time was, I believe, set by the railroad at the descretion of the OS'ing operator...thus minute one could be anywhere from zero minute 31 to one minute 30 but may have been more defined by local or railroad practice. In Europe, public timetable often reflect the quarter and half minute. So, under timetable and train order, time was precise to the second but I don't think it is so restrcted today, especially in freight operations; even commuter roads proclaim a 5 or 6 minute window for "on time" perfromance but how close their operating time may be tighter.
Deggesty BaltACD: I can't speak to what the ATSF procedures were in 1905....however, when I broke in, telegraph was still active on the division - At NOON every day a signal was sent over the telegraph wire that all locations with Standard Clocks and all telegraph operators that had clocks were required to set and regulate their clocks in accordance with the signal that was being sent. My understanding is that the signal originated from the Naval Observatory in Washington DC. What other carriers may have used I don't know, however, since Time was a routine statement in Time Table & Train Orders railroading I am certain there was a daily procedure for all clocks on the system to be synchronized. Murphy Siding: Bucyrus: The two station operators could have synchronized their clocks by telegraph ahead of time. Indeed, the whole ATSF system probably synchronized their time by telegraph as an every day routine. Or the two agents could have used one clock at one station, and recorded the passage at the other station by telegraph signal to the station with the clock being used. Test If the ATSF did synchonized their watches on that day, or on every day, I can't imagine they would be synchonized to the second. If they had sychronized their watches to the second especially for that run, wouldn't there have been some mention of the fact in print somewhere over the last 100 years? I have no reason to doubt that the procedure followed by BaltACD's road was followed by all other roads that depended upon accuracy in timekeeping in the operation of their trains. Remember: you do NOT railroad with a fast watch when you depend upon train orders and the timetable to prevent collisions. All timepieces on a division that operated in one time zone were set to the same time. Why worry about "coordination of timepieces? They had to be coordinated. Of course, the time at which the signal was sent on your division depended upon your time zone, as one signal was from the Naval Observatory at noon, EST. Thus, if you worked in the Central Time Zone, it came at 11:00 a.m. The Naval Observatory (or whatever it is called now) has been transmitting the time by radio for more than sixty-five years (that was about the time that I began listening to WWV, which now broadcasts, using the same call letters, from Fort Collins, Colorado. I do not know all the frequencies used, but I have listened on 2.5, 5.0, and 10.0 mghz (using a radio that was built in 1946). Please, let us not quibble about "coordination of watches."
BaltACD: I can't speak to what the ATSF procedures were in 1905....however, when I broke in, telegraph was still active on the division - At NOON every day a signal was sent over the telegraph wire that all locations with Standard Clocks and all telegraph operators that had clocks were required to set and regulate their clocks in accordance with the signal that was being sent. My understanding is that the signal originated from the Naval Observatory in Washington DC. What other carriers may have used I don't know, however, since Time was a routine statement in Time Table & Train Orders railroading I am certain there was a daily procedure for all clocks on the system to be synchronized. Murphy Siding: Bucyrus: The two station operators could have synchronized their clocks by telegraph ahead of time. Indeed, the whole ATSF system probably synchronized their time by telegraph as an every day routine. Or the two agents could have used one clock at one station, and recorded the passage at the other station by telegraph signal to the station with the clock being used. Test If the ATSF did synchonized their watches on that day, or on every day, I can't imagine they would be synchonized to the second. If they had sychronized their watches to the second especially for that run, wouldn't there have been some mention of the fact in print somewhere over the last 100 years? I have no reason to doubt that the procedure followed by BaltACD's road was followed by all other roads that depended upon accuracy in timekeeping in the operation of their trains. Remember: you do NOT railroad with a fast watch when you depend upon train orders and the timetable to prevent collisions. All timepieces on a division that operated in one time zone were set to the same time. Why worry about "coordination of timepieces? They had to be coordinated. Of course, the time at which the signal was sent on your division depended upon your time zone, as one signal was from the Naval Observatory at noon, EST. Thus, if you worked in the Central Time Zone, it came at 11:00 a.m. The Naval Observatory (or whatever it is called now) has been transmitting the time by radio for more than sixty-five years (that was about the time that I began listening to WWV, which now broadcasts, using the same call letters, from Fort Collins, Colorado. I do not know all the frequencies used, but I have listened on 2.5, 5.0, and 10.0 mghz (using a radio that was built in 1946). Please, let us not quibble about "coordination of watches."
Murphy Siding: Bucyrus: The two station operators could have synchronized their clocks by telegraph ahead of time. Indeed, the whole ATSF system probably synchronized their time by telegraph as an every day routine. Or the two agents could have used one clock at one station, and recorded the passage at the other station by telegraph signal to the station with the clock being used. Test If the ATSF did synchonized their watches on that day, or on every day, I can't imagine they would be synchonized to the second. If they had sychronized their watches to the second especially for that run, wouldn't there have been some mention of the fact in print somewhere over the last 100 years?
Bucyrus: The two station operators could have synchronized their clocks by telegraph ahead of time. Indeed, the whole ATSF system probably synchronized their time by telegraph as an every day routine. Or the two agents could have used one clock at one station, and recorded the passage at the other station by telegraph signal to the station with the clock being used.
Test If the ATSF did synchonized their watches on that day, or on every day, I can't imagine they would be synchonized to the second. If they had sychronized their watches to the second especially for that run, wouldn't there have been some mention of the fact in print somewhere over the last 100 years?
Of course, the time at which the signal was sent on your division depended upon your time zone, as one signal was from the Naval Observatory at noon, EST. Thus, if you worked in the Central Time Zone, it came at 11:00 a.m.
The Naval Observatory (or whatever it is called now) has been transmitting the time by radio for more than sixty-five years (that was about the time that I began listening to WWV, which now broadcasts, using the same call letters, from Fort Collins, Colorado. I do not know all the frequencies used, but I have listened on 2.5, 5.0, and 10.0 mghz (using a radio that was built in 1946).
Please, let us not quibble about "coordination of watches."
I hate to quibble, but...
The time rules were the first numbered rules in the rule books. Rule No. 1 was that the time from the U.S. Naval Observatory would be obtained at a certain hour and transmitted to all points. (CB&Q 1900 book says 4pm central, 3pm mountain. CRI&P 1904 book says 12 noon central, 11 am mountain.) So there is a time standard. When going on duty engine and train men where either to check their watches against a Standard Clock, or if one wasn't available, with someone who had a watch with Standard time. Upon checking they were to fill out a form (often train or engine registers would have a space for this) and note any variation. Later era rule books and our current GCOR codified a variance of 30 seconds fast or slow. Out side of that range the watch must be changed to the correct time. Those two 1900 era books don't mention an allowable variance, but say they must be noted. I've seen a picture of an AT&SF standard clock from a later era that had a sign, "This clock is 1 second slow." So as long as you knew how much your watch deviated (within allowable reason) you would be good to go. You could, of course, correct your watch when comparing it, but you may not have too.
So while there may be a matter of seconds in the difference between times operators used in O-S ing trains, I doubt it matters. I would guess the timing between stations or mile posts was done on the train by someone using their own watch. (When I time mile posts to check the speedometer I don't look at my watch at the first MP and ask the conductor for the time at the second MP.) It wouldn't matter if that person's watch was fast or slow as long as it didn't gain or lose time during the timings. I imagine a few people had their time pieces out, each timing between points on that train.
Murphy Siding Test If the ATSF did synchonized their watches on that day, or on every day, I can't imagine they would be synchonized to the second. If they had sychronized their watches to the second especially for that run, wouldn't there have been some mention of the fact in print somewhere over the last 100 years?
I don’t think it would have been a big deal to synchronize watches or clocks to compare times. That has been a signature procedure in railroading for a long time. But even so, a stretch of run could be timed with just one timepiece. Engineers routinely did that with a measured mile. And railroads provided measured miles for just that purpose. The perception of a passing mile marker could easily be marked to the second. It could probably be marked to a quarter-second.
For the Scott run, they had to work to the second in order to make the calculation. There were smart people back in 1905. Hankey makes it sound like they hadn’t invented the second yet.
Here is a link to the story of the Scott Special:
http://cprr.org/Museum/Scott_Special_1905.html
Quoted from the link:
“From the little hamlet of Cameron to the still smaller one of Surrey is 2.8 miles. “She” made it in one minute and thirty-five seconds at a rate of 106 miles an hour.”
From that description, they must have had the ability to count seconds.
tree68 After coupling his steamer to a hot NYC passenger train at Harmon, an engineer got his orders: "Do not arrive in Albany before....."
Actually that is a standard train order which sets a schedule for an extra train or a regulat triain under special circumstances. First, it gives the train a schedule to follow then it gives notice to all towers, stations and operators as well as all opposing trains and trains it might overtake, track crews, etc. notice that there will be a train and what time to expect it. It was most common on single track, running in oposing direction on double track, when detouring over track or route it wouldn't normally operate.
BaltACD I can't speak to what the ATSF procedures were in 1905....however, when I broke in, telegraph was still active on the division - At NOON every day a signal was sent over the telegraph wire that all locations with Standard Clocks and all telegraph operators that had clocks were required to set and regulate their clocks in accordance with the signal that was being sent. My understanding is that the signal originated from the Naval Observatory in Washington DC. What other carriers may have used I don't know, however, since Time was a routine statement in Time Table & Train Orders railroading I am certain there was a daily procedure for all clocks on the system to be synchronized. Murphy Siding: Bucyrus: The two station operators could have synchronized their clocks by telegraph ahead of time. Indeed, the whole ATSF system probably synchronized their time by telegraph as an every day routine. Or the two agents could have used one clock at one station, and recorded the passage at the other station by telegraph signal to the station with the clock being used. Test If the ATSF did synchonized their watches on that day, or on every day, I can't imagine they would be synchonized to the second. If they had sychronized their watches to the second especially for that run, wouldn't there have been some mention of the fact in print somewhere over the last 100 years?
Murphy Siding Bucyrus: The two station operators could have synchronized their clocks by telegraph ahead of time. Indeed, the whole ATSF system probably synchronized their time by telegraph as an every day routine. Or the two agents could have used one clock at one station, and recorded the passage at the other station by telegraph signal to the station with the clock being used. Test If the ATSF did synchonized their watches on that day, or on every day, I can't imagine they would be synchonized to the second. If they had sychronized their watches to the second especially for that run, wouldn't there have been some mention of the fact in print somewhere over the last 100 years?
Bucyrus The two station operators could have synchronized their clocks by telegraph ahead of time. Indeed, the whole ATSF system probably synchronized their time by telegraph as an every day routine. Or the two agents could have used one clock at one station, and recorded the passage at the other station by telegraph signal to the station with the clock being used.
Well, I read the Scotty article, and actually found the entire issue quite interesting. I was pleasantly surprised that the overall theme was not what I expected. I find the cover design to be particularly attractive.
But to the issue of Scott’s speed run, Mr. Hankey says, “Let’s just say there are grounds for skepticism.” I can’t disagree with that. But there is a lot of distance between skepticism and debunking. Perhaps debunk was a word chosen by the editorial staff.
Mr. Hankey gives the following three reasons to discredit the speed claim:
1) It reeks of wishful thinking and corporate spin.
2) There is no credible scenario that it could have been accurately timed.
3) It was physically impossible according to the law of thermodynamics.
Regarding #1, if we reject claims on that basis, I would submit that 100% of the news reported today has to be 100% false.
Regarding #2, there is no reason to assume that times were rounded off to the nearest minute just because that was the normal practice for train schedule timekeeping. Anybody seeking to determine actual track speed over a few miles of sample is going to realize that it has to be timed to the second. To attempt to discredit the speed claim by speculating that the railroad may not have clocks with second hands, could not set clocks to the second, or did not have clocks at all, strikes me as absurd. Mr. Hankey says that the operators at the two stations would have had to each record the time of passage, and their clocks might not have been synchronized.
The two station operators could have synchronized their clocks by telegraph ahead of time. Indeed, the whole ATSF system probably synchronized their time by telegraph as an every day routine. Or the two agents could have used one clock at one station, and recorded the passage at the other station by telegraph signal to the station with the clock being used. Or somebody on the train could have recorded the time by each station. It is incomprehensible to me how anyone can believe that the timing would have been technologically impossible, or even difficult.
Regarding #3, I agree that the speed run could be proven to be either possible or impossible according to the laws of thermodynamics. However, proving it according to that law is not the same thing as merely claiming that the law proves it. The way the laws of physics apply to this speed record can be demonstrated.
We know the parameters such as locomotive specifications, train weight, mechanical details of locomotive, train, and track, and the exact geographical location. So the physics problem can be laid out for all to see. Its terms and result are objective, and will tell us one way or the other whether the speed claim was possible. But just claiming the laws of physics are on your side is meaningless.
BaltACDAnother thing - back in the day, there was no radar and supervision was not a stickler for crews observing more than the maximum on unrestricted areas of track, in fact some in supervision even encouraged crews to 'make up time' when possible.
Anecdote from one RR mag or another:
The consist of the train as described in one of the early paragraphs makes it out to be primarily a mail & express train, with a rider coach or two. Carriers in the era had a number of these type trains operating....12-15 Mail & express cars and a rider coach, mainly for the crew. They operated on passenger train schedules at passenger train speeds but rarely had actual passengers. The station stops mentioned could very well have been for working the mail & express, not for handling passengers.
Another thing - back in the day, there was no radar and supervision was not a stickler for crews observing more than the maximum on unrestricted areas of track, in fact some in supervision even encouraged crews to 'make up time' when possible.
Bucyrus After thinking about the probability of speed records being exaggerated, I find myself unable to believe the speed run described by John Crosby in his above quoted piece about a run with PRR class T1. It is a fun story, but I don’t believe they ran 120 mph. It is not that I don’t believe the locomotive was capable of pulling the train that fast. It may or may not have been capable of that. But what I do not believe is that an engineer would have exceeded the speed limit by 41 mph with a passenger train.
After thinking about the probability of speed records being exaggerated, I find myself unable to believe the speed run described by John Crosby in his above quoted piece about a run with PRR class T1. It is a fun story, but I don’t believe they ran 120 mph. It is not that I don’t believe the locomotive was capable of pulling the train that fast. It may or may not have been capable of that. But what I do not believe is that an engineer would have exceeded the speed limit by 41 mph with a passenger train.
samfp1943 " alt="" onload="resizeImage(this);" /> " alt="" onload="resizeImage(this);" /> locoi1sa Posts :2,400 Joined: 07-12-2006 I got this in an Email and its a great story. " alt="" onload="resizeImage(this);" /> locoi1sa Posted: 03-03-2012 6:16 PM Reply More A good read for steam heads..................... A Pennsylvania Railroad Class T1. LAST CHANCE for a Pennsylvania Railroad Class T1 By John R. Crosby Early in 1948, Pennsylvania Railroad (PRR) President Martin W. Clement announced that "by May of this year we expect all our important east-west passenger trains will be diesel-electric powered west of Harrisburg." True to his word, hordes of pin-striped diesels began to arrive from La Grange, Eddystone, Erie, and any other place that could slap together a diesel locomotive. It seems that the Pennsy, in its rush to dieselize, bought them all. With the arrival of the new power, it was not long before the Pennsy's T1 Locomotives, then only three or so years old were relegated to pulling secondary trains. I was firing such a run between Fort Wayne, Indiana and Crestline, Ohio, and return. Even our unglamorous trains, many bereft of names, now regularly sported diesels on the head end. The best evidence of this was the way passenger engine crews dressed for work. Most of us had discarded our work shirts, overalls, and bandanas in favor of slacks and sport shirts. Some of the old-timers persisted in wearing their Oshkosh or Carhartt overalls, but they were looked down upon as hopeless fossils by we of the younger crowd. While I had joined the slacks and shirt crowd, in the bottom of my grip I still carried a pair of goggles and gauntlet gloves. On the day in question, my engineer and I were awaiting the arrival of No. 43. The train was due into Crestline at 2:25 p.m., and was a typical secondary train of that era. The normal consist was about 14 cars of storage mail, Railway Express, and Railway Post office cars, a combination car and two coaches. The train originated in Pitts burgh and wound up in Chicago, making stops every 25 miles of so. On this run, the only significant revenue was produced on the head end, not in the coaches. About 1:45 p.m. we received word that number 43 was running some 45 minutes late, and was steam powered. We were being assigned a class T1, and would we kindly get ourselves on the No. 5536. Reluctantly we walked out of the roundhouse and searched for our engine. Way over on a back ready track we found it. What a pitiful sight! The engine and tender were coated with thick layers of grime and soot. At any place where steam was discharged, either by design or accident, streaks of gray dripped downward. Someone had cleaned off the numbers on the side of the cab. This had been done in such a fashion that each number looked as though it was in an oval frame. To verify ownership, the flanks of the tender proudly displayed the letters PENNSY. The LVANIA was totally covered by dirt. The rubber diaphragm between the cab and tender was in shreds or missing. On the engine, various inspection covers were missing, giving it a curiously hollow appearance. The casing around the stacks was gone and they showed up quite clearly. I had anticipated the cab would not be very clean so I scrounged up a large ball of cotton waste. Climbing up into the cab confirmed my suspicions that it was a filthy mess. About the only clean spot was the engineer's seat where the hostler had sat while coaling up the tender. Harry, my engineer, using the privileges of seniority, remained on the ground and hollered up to me to get him a long oil can. I handed him one and began to get busy with my cleaning. It was quite evident that this engine had been sitting around for some time with the cab windows open to the elements and whatever dirt happened to be in the area. I turned on the injector, then the squirt hose, and tried to wash down all the dirt that I could dislodge with water. While I did achieve some degree of success, there was still a lot of dirt in the cab as harry climbed up the ladder. He was very careful not to touch any place I happened to miss in my cleaning operation. He spent a few minutes wiping off his seat, and the various valves and levers he would be operating. Satisfied with his efforts, he sat down and began testing the air brakes, whistle, bell, water pump, etc. While he was busy with his chores I got the fire ready. Surprisingly, considering how long the engine had been sitting around, the fire was in fairly good shape. It did not require much to get it to my liking. We were now ready to back down to the station. Harry turned on the bell, gave three short blasts on the whistle, opened the cylinder cocks, then cracked open the throttle. We started to back up, blowing out large amounts of water through the open cylinder cocks. At Riley Street I saw that the dwarf signal governing our movement off the ready track to the running track was displaying "restricting," allowing us to continue our reverse move. We continued to back eastward until stopped by the signal guarding access to the mainline. We sat here for some time until we heard the unmistakable sound of a Pennsylvania chime whistle. No. 43 was finally in town. A few minutes later, a pair of bedraggled K4's slipped by on their way to the roundhouse. As soon as they cleared the interlocking, I could see the switch points flop over for our movement; this was followed by the signal changing from "stop" to "restricting." I called the aspect to Harry and we backed down to the train, rumbling across the tracks of the Big Four's Cleveland to Columbus mainline. As we coupled onto the train, I noted that our conductor was standing on the platform with a clearance card stating that No. 43 had no train orders. He also let us know that today we had a total of 15 cars, all heavyweight. It was quite obvious that his major concern was that of maintaining as much distance as possible between himself and the filthy locomotive. The car inspectors coupled the air and signal hoses, and then the steam heat connectors. Harry ran the air test while I fed coal to the fire. At 3:40 p.m., 1 our and 15 minutes late, the communicating whistle peeped twice and we were finally on our way. Harry turned on the bell, opened the sanders, and gently pulled on the throttle. With a T1, you did not yank open the throttle unless you waned the engine to slip, sand or no sand. We slowly began to move, again rumbling over the Big Four diamonds (Cleveland, Cincinnati, Chicago & St. Louis Railway or CCC&StL which became the New York Central). At about 20 mph, Harry made a running brake test. He released the brakes and opened the throttle a bit more. We had a 4-mph speed restriction around an "S" curve through the yard. Once clear of it, Harry got down to business and the tired old 5536 began to accelerate just as its designers had intended. [Keep it mind the T1s had rotary cam poppet valves]. In spite of its cruddy appearance, this engine was still in good mechanical condition. As the speed increased, so did the flow of cinders, grime sand and dust, and other debris into and out of the cab. Evidently, there were some nooks that I had overlooked in my cleaning efforts. It was indeed fortunate that I still had my goggles available. While our eyes are protected from the flying dirt, I cannot say the same for our slacks and sport shirts. Bucyrus was our first stop, only 12 minutes west of Crestline. We drove into the station in a cloud of sand and dust, and blue brakeshoe smoke. After a few minutes, during which mail, express and a few passengers had either been unloaded or loaded, we started another dash to Upper Sandusky, Ohio, all of 18 miles farther west. This was followed by stops at Ada and Lima. During the Lima stop, we filled the tender to its 19,000-gallon capacity. The farther west we went, the better the T1 performed. Our speed easily passed 90 several times. Now, before anyone reading this gets excited about the speed mentioned, and cites the fact that the legal speed limit for passenger trains on the Fort Wayne division was 79 mph, let me quote the road foreman at the time, on James A. (Pappy) Warren: "If you can't make up time without worrying about the speed limit, I'll get someone who can." Our last scheduled stop was in Van Wert, Ohio. Again, Harry drove into the station, making a precise spot so that the various mail and express carts did not have to move far to find an open door. He called me over to his side of the cab and said, "Johnny, this may be our last chance at one of these beasts. What do you say about seeing just what she'll do between here and Fort Wayne?" As he spoke, I noted that his face was completely covered with dirt, except for the two white circles behind his glasses. My deferential reply was, "You're the boss. My side of the cab is still attached to yours." He nodded in reply to my answer, and issued a warning. "You'd better get your fire ready, 'cause we're going to move out of here." With this bit of information, I began to work on my fire. I grabbed the No. 5 scoop shovel and filled the back corners of the firebox. I shut off the stoker jets and ran a big ward of coal into the firebox, right in front of the firebox doors. When finished, I felt satisfied that I was ready for what was to come. With the first peep of the communicating whistle, Harry turned on the bell and sanders. A second later came the second peep. He cautiously opened the throttle. The first six or so exhausts were relatively gentle "chuffs" as we began to move. One of the exhaust blew a perfect smoke ring. When Harry was satisfied that we had a good supply of sand under the drivers, he pulled open the throttle a little farther. Until then, the sounds of the exhaust had been drowned out by the sound of the whistle, but no more. The exhaust began to snap and crack out of the twin stacks. The presence of nearby warehouses and lumber yards created a pronounced echo effect so that each exhaust was multiplied as it bounced back and forth from building to building. This was the ultimate in stereo. With the heavy throttle, the engine began to rock slightly from side to side. We rounded the curve at Estry Tower, and now between us and Fort Wayne lay 31 miles of perfectly straight track. As soon as we cleared the Cincinnati Northern diamond, Harry pulled the throttle wide open. The engine began to quiver, and it was easy to note the acceleration. With a good supply of sand, there was not a hint of a slip, although I did note that Harry kept his hand on the throttle in anticipation of such an event. As the speed built up, he began to move the reverse lever from the corner up towards center, in effect shifting from low to high gear. The busy U.S. 30 crossing slipped by with the speedometer showing 78 mph. Soon the needle showed 86. In spite of the large demand for steam, I had no problem maintaining 300 pounds of steam pressure. This was not necessarily due to my prowess as a fireman, but rather to the fact that the engine was a free steamer. I cracked open the firedoors to check the fire. I was satisfied to note that its color was bright yellow-white. The coal that I had put into the back corners and in front of the fire door was long gone. Dixon is the location of a cast-iron post indicating Ohio on one side and Indiana on the other. We did not have much time for reading as we were now running at 96 mph. Harry had now moved the reverse lever to within just a few points of being vertical. He was kept busy blowing for road crossings. At our speed, there was not too much time from the passing of a whistle post until the crossing showed up. We bounced straight through the Monroeville crossovers at 108 mph, with the needle still unwinding. West of town we hit 110. The "T" still had reserve left. The only problem we had was with dirt and soot. This was compounded by coal dust from the tender. At Maples the speedometer needle quit moving. We were now covering a mile in 30 seconds - 120 mph! We blazed by Adams Tower with the engine and tender each trying to go their separate ways as they passed over the crossovers and siding switches. The tower operator beat a hasty retreat as the breeze we created tried to blow him over. Clearing the interlocking, Harry applied the brakes and pulled our speed down to a more respectable 80. We slipped into town, stopping at the coal dock for a load of coal. With the tender full, we made our final dash of a mile to the Fort Wayne station. Arriving there, we got off and headed downstairs to the crew room. The passenger crew dispatcher, Chet Glant, met Harry as he turned in his timeslip. "Harry, the dispatcher wants to talk to you upstairs." So without cleaning ourselves, we both went up to the dispatcher's office. The dispatcher eyeballed us, shaking his head in wonder. Somewhat sarcastically he asked, "Which one of you two clowns has a pilot's license?" He paused for dramatic effect and continued, "You guys were certainly flying low today. According to your timing by Estry and Adams, it took you only 17 minutes to cover 27miles. Now my math is nothing to brag about, but that averages out to something like 95 miles per hour, and that from a station stop." Neither of us offered any comment. He looked at us for a few moments and closed with the admonition, "Don't do this again." As we walked out he grinned and added, Good job, guys." The did turn out to be my last trip on a T1. With the proliferation of diesels on passenger trains, there was little call for maintaining much of an extra passenger board. About the only business was that of pulling dead, or nearly dead, Baldwin diesels. So when the engineers' board was cut, I wound up back on freight with Q2's (4-4-6-4), J1's (2-10-4) and F3's. But that is another story.
A good read for steam heads..................... A Pennsylvania Railroad Class T1. LAST CHANCE for a Pennsylvania Railroad Class T1 By John R. Crosby Early in 1948, Pennsylvania Railroad (PRR) President Martin W. Clement announced that "by May of this year we expect all our important east-west passenger trains will be diesel-electric powered west of Harrisburg." True to his word, hordes of pin-striped diesels began to arrive from La Grange, Eddystone, Erie, and any other place that could slap together a diesel locomotive. It seems that the Pennsy, in its rush to dieselize, bought them all. With the arrival of the new power, it was not long before the Pennsy's T1 Locomotives, then only three or so years old were relegated to pulling secondary trains. I was firing such a run between Fort Wayne, Indiana and Crestline, Ohio, and return. Even our unglamorous trains, many bereft of names, now regularly sported diesels on the head end. The best evidence of this was the way passenger engine crews dressed for work. Most of us had discarded our work shirts, overalls, and bandanas in favor of slacks and sport shirts. Some of the old-timers persisted in wearing their Oshkosh or Carhartt overalls, but they were looked down upon as hopeless fossils by we of the younger crowd. While I had joined the slacks and shirt crowd, in the bottom of my grip I still carried a pair of goggles and gauntlet gloves. On the day in question, my engineer and I were awaiting the arrival of No. 43. The train was due into Crestline at 2:25 p.m., and was a typical secondary train of that era. The normal consist was about 14 cars of storage mail, Railway Express, and Railway Post office cars, a combination car and two coaches. The train originated in Pitts burgh and wound up in Chicago, making stops every 25 miles of so. On this run, the only significant revenue was produced on the head end, not in the coaches. About 1:45 p.m. we received word that number 43 was running some 45 minutes late, and was steam powered. We were being assigned a class T1, and would we kindly get ourselves on the No. 5536. Reluctantly we walked out of the roundhouse and searched for our engine. Way over on a back ready track we found it. What a pitiful sight! The engine and tender were coated with thick layers of grime and soot. At any place where steam was discharged, either by design or accident, streaks of gray dripped downward. Someone had cleaned off the numbers on the side of the cab. This had been done in such a fashion that each number looked as though it was in an oval frame. To verify ownership, the flanks of the tender proudly displayed the letters PENNSY. The LVANIA was totally covered by dirt. The rubber diaphragm between the cab and tender was in shreds or missing. On the engine, various inspection covers were missing, giving it a curiously hollow appearance. The casing around the stacks was gone and they showed up quite clearly. I had anticipated the cab would not be very clean so I scrounged up a large ball of cotton waste. Climbing up into the cab confirmed my suspicions that it was a filthy mess. About the only clean spot was the engineer's seat where the hostler had sat while coaling up the tender. Harry, my engineer, using the privileges of seniority, remained on the ground and hollered up to me to get him a long oil can. I handed him one and began to get busy with my cleaning. It was quite evident that this engine had been sitting around for some time with the cab windows open to the elements and whatever dirt happened to be in the area. I turned on the injector, then the squirt hose, and tried to wash down all the dirt that I could dislodge with water. While I did achieve some degree of success, there was still a lot of dirt in the cab as harry climbed up the ladder. He was very careful not to touch any place I happened to miss in my cleaning operation. He spent a few minutes wiping off his seat, and the various valves and levers he would be operating. Satisfied with his efforts, he sat down and began testing the air brakes, whistle, bell, water pump, etc. While he was busy with his chores I got the fire ready. Surprisingly, considering how long the engine had been sitting around, the fire was in fairly good shape. It did not require much to get it to my liking. We were now ready to back down to the station. Harry turned on the bell, gave three short blasts on the whistle, opened the cylinder cocks, then cracked open the throttle. We started to back up, blowing out large amounts of water through the open cylinder cocks. At Riley Street I saw that the dwarf signal governing our movement off the ready track to the running track was displaying "restricting," allowing us to continue our reverse move. We continued to back eastward until stopped by the signal guarding access to the mainline. We sat here for some time until we heard the unmistakable sound of a Pennsylvania chime whistle. No. 43 was finally in town. A few minutes later, a pair of bedraggled K4's slipped by on their way to the roundhouse. As soon as they cleared the interlocking, I could see the switch points flop over for our movement; this was followed by the signal changing from "stop" to "restricting." I called the aspect to Harry and we backed down to the train, rumbling across the tracks of the Big Four's Cleveland to Columbus mainline. As we coupled onto the train, I noted that our conductor was standing on the platform with a clearance card stating that No. 43 had no train orders. He also let us know that today we had a total of 15 cars, all heavyweight. It was quite obvious that his major concern was that of maintaining as much distance as possible between himself and the filthy locomotive. The car inspectors coupled the air and signal hoses, and then the steam heat connectors. Harry ran the air test while I fed coal to the fire. At 3:40 p.m., 1 our and 15 minutes late, the communicating whistle peeped twice and we were finally on our way. Harry turned on the bell, opened the sanders, and gently pulled on the throttle. With a T1, you did not yank open the throttle unless you waned the engine to slip, sand or no sand. We slowly began to move, again rumbling over the Big Four diamonds (Cleveland, Cincinnati, Chicago & St. Louis Railway or CCC&StL which became the New York Central). At about 20 mph, Harry made a running brake test. He released the brakes and opened the throttle a bit more. We had a 4-mph speed restriction around an "S" curve through the yard. Once clear of it, Harry got down to business and the tired old 5536 began to accelerate just as its designers had intended. [Keep it mind the T1s had rotary cam poppet valves]. In spite of its cruddy appearance, this engine was still in good mechanical condition. As the speed increased, so did the flow of cinders, grime sand and dust, and other debris into and out of the cab. Evidently, there were some nooks that I had overlooked in my cleaning efforts. It was indeed fortunate that I still had my goggles available. While our eyes are protected from the flying dirt, I cannot say the same for our slacks and sport shirts. Bucyrus was our first stop, only 12 minutes west of Crestline. We drove into the station in a cloud of sand and dust, and blue brakeshoe smoke. After a few minutes, during which mail, express and a few passengers had either been unloaded or loaded, we started another dash to Upper Sandusky, Ohio, all of 18 miles farther west. This was followed by stops at Ada and Lima. During the Lima stop, we filled the tender to its 19,000-gallon capacity. The farther west we went, the better the T1 performed. Our speed easily passed 90 several times. Now, before anyone reading this gets excited about the speed mentioned, and cites the fact that the legal speed limit for passenger trains on the Fort Wayne division was 79 mph, let me quote the road foreman at the time, on James A. (Pappy) Warren: "If you can't make up time without worrying about the speed limit, I'll get someone who can." Our last scheduled stop was in Van Wert, Ohio. Again, Harry drove into the station, making a precise spot so that the various mail and express carts did not have to move far to find an open door. He called me over to his side of the cab and said, "Johnny, this may be our last chance at one of these beasts. What do you say about seeing just what she'll do between here and Fort Wayne?" As he spoke, I noted that his face was completely covered with dirt, except for the two white circles behind his glasses. My deferential reply was, "You're the boss. My side of the cab is still attached to yours." He nodded in reply to my answer, and issued a warning. "You'd better get your fire ready, 'cause we're going to move out of here." With this bit of information, I began to work on my fire. I grabbed the No. 5 scoop shovel and filled the back corners of the firebox. I shut off the stoker jets and ran a big ward of coal into the firebox, right in front of the firebox doors. When finished, I felt satisfied that I was ready for what was to come. With the first peep of the communicating whistle, Harry turned on the bell and sanders. A second later came the second peep. He cautiously opened the throttle. The first six or so exhausts were relatively gentle "chuffs" as we began to move. One of the exhaust blew a perfect smoke ring. When Harry was satisfied that we had a good supply of sand under the drivers, he pulled open the throttle a little farther. Until then, the sounds of the exhaust had been drowned out by the sound of the whistle, but no more. The exhaust began to snap and crack out of the twin stacks. The presence of nearby warehouses and lumber yards created a pronounced echo effect so that each exhaust was multiplied as it bounced back and forth from building to building. This was the ultimate in stereo. With the heavy throttle, the engine began to rock slightly from side to side. We rounded the curve at Estry Tower, and now between us and Fort Wayne lay 31 miles of perfectly straight track. As soon as we cleared the Cincinnati Northern diamond, Harry pulled the throttle wide open. The engine began to quiver, and it was easy to note the acceleration. With a good supply of sand, there was not a hint of a slip, although I did note that Harry kept his hand on the throttle in anticipation of such an event. As the speed built up, he began to move the reverse lever from the corner up towards center, in effect shifting from low to high gear. The busy U.S. 30 crossing slipped by with the speedometer showing 78 mph. Soon the needle showed 86. In spite of the large demand for steam, I had no problem maintaining 300 pounds of steam pressure. This was not necessarily due to my prowess as a fireman, but rather to the fact that the engine was a free steamer. I cracked open the firedoors to check the fire. I was satisfied to note that its color was bright yellow-white. The coal that I had put into the back corners and in front of the fire door was long gone. Dixon is the location of a cast-iron post indicating Ohio on one side and Indiana on the other. We did not have much time for reading as we were now running at 96 mph. Harry had now moved the reverse lever to within just a few points of being vertical. He was kept busy blowing for road crossings. At our speed, there was not too much time from the passing of a whistle post until the crossing showed up. We bounced straight through the Monroeville crossovers at 108 mph, with the needle still unwinding. West of town we hit 110. The "T" still had reserve left. The only problem we had was with dirt and soot. This was compounded by coal dust from the tender. At Maples the speedometer needle quit moving. We were now covering a mile in 30 seconds - 120 mph! We blazed by Adams Tower with the engine and tender each trying to go their separate ways as they passed over the crossovers and siding switches. The tower operator beat a hasty retreat as the breeze we created tried to blow him over. Clearing the interlocking, Harry applied the brakes and pulled our speed down to a more respectable 80. We slipped into town, stopping at the coal dock for a load of coal. With the tender full, we made our final dash of a mile to the Fort Wayne station. Arriving there, we got off and headed downstairs to the crew room. The passenger crew dispatcher, Chet Glant, met Harry as he turned in his timeslip. "Harry, the dispatcher wants to talk to you upstairs." So without cleaning ourselves, we both went up to the dispatcher's office. The dispatcher eyeballed us, shaking his head in wonder. Somewhat sarcastically he asked, "Which one of you two clowns has a pilot's license?" He paused for dramatic effect and continued, "You guys were certainly flying low today. According to your timing by Estry and Adams, it took you only 17 minutes to cover 27miles. Now my math is nothing to brag about, but that averages out to something like 95 miles per hour, and that from a station stop." Neither of us offered any comment. He looked at us for a few moments and closed with the admonition, "Don't do this again." As we walked out he grinned and added, Good job, guys." The did turn out to be my last trip on a T1. With the proliferation of diesels on passenger trains, there was little call for maintaining much of an extra passenger board. About the only business was that of pulling dead, or nearly dead, Baldwin diesels. So when the engineers' board was cut, I wound up back on freight with Q2's (4-4-6-4), J1's (2-10-4) and F3's. But that is another story.
I still haven't gotte to the article yet, hope to tonight. But one of the factors to be applied to legendary stories as presented in this issue of Trains is an old saw, "the romance of railroading", virtually inconcievable in this technological age. There was romance and excitement for all Americans to hear these stories of bravado and speed, taking risks with their lives and others while manipulating the giant steam machine to do impossible feats defying God and gravity with speeds unimagined in a horse drawn and Model T world. Men, women, and childrens minds had not been deadened by a man on the moon, iPads, cell phones, and the internet. You've got to put all the eras between today and then in order and perspective to understand the charm and interest and hype. And to accept it.
karldotcom I read the article and wasn't convinced with the authors conclusions. I thought railroaders all timed their distances to figure out their speed back in the day...that is why the seconds=mph charts were listed in the timetables. Maybe Hankey can clear up how the Egyptians built the pyramids next.
I read the article and wasn't convinced with the authors conclusions. I thought railroaders all timed their distances to figure out their speed back in the day...that is why the seconds=mph charts were listed in the timetables.
Maybe Hankey can clear up how the Egyptians built the pyramids next.
It has already been proven that the ancient Egyptians did not have the technology to lift such huge blocks so as to build the pyramiids, so it is obvious that they are just a myth and do not exist today.
My train videos - http://www.youtube.com/user/karldotcom
I will take the Sante Fe story at face value. True there was no third party verificaiton, but the speed was determined by times between specific mile posts, and there isn't any reason to doubt that the people in the cab were honest.
About the idea that the locomotive was not capable of such speed,: This might be true for a continuous basis, but any steam locomotive can exceed its rated firebox-boiler hoursepower capabilities for a few minutes, and that is all that it would take. Possibly there was a slight downgrade to help. Possibly the safety valve was set a few PSI above the 220 rating, and the actual boiler pressure might have been 223 or 224.
I would credit the Sante Fe BEFORE crediting the PRR and NYC records, which may be more doubtful.
But I don't doubt the T-1 performance. I wonder what those passengers in those not particularly well-sprung P-70 coaches were thinking!
"Railroad Folk Lore (?)" Stories iof incredible speed(?)
In College I did a paper on Raymond Loewy ( One statemet that really stood out had appeared on a Loewy Site: It was a repetition of his comments while standing on the Platform of an Ohio RR Station when the S-1 passed by with a Passenger train, and his description of the ground shaking, the noise, and the wind generated by its passage.
Linked below: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRR_S1
FTL:"...Alleged speed records
"...It was hoped that the locomotive could haul 1,000 tons at 100 miles per hour, but this goal was not reached. While an article "Riding the Gargantua of the Rails" in the Dec. 1941 Popular Mechanics Magazine cites a speed of 133.4 miles an hour, there are apocryphal stories of the S1 reaching or exceeding 140 miles per hour, but there is no documentation of these and it is considered unlikely by experts.[7]
Its high speed capability was such that some have claimed the S1 may have even exceeded the 126 mph (203 km/h) record steam locomotive speed set in 1938 by the LNER locomotive Mallard. The locomotive was also rumoured to have operated at speeds exceeding 156 mph on the Fort Wayne-Chicago Railroad, as it was rumoured that the PRR received a fine posted by an interlocking tower on the division, proving the claim. However, it appears that no verifiable records are available to authenticate the claims.[7].."
And this site as well: http://www.crestlineprr.com/duplexexperimentals.html#s1
The PRR Crestline (Ohio) Engine Facility.
The there was the Story of the Speed Run of the CB&Q RR Zeypher from Denver to Chicago. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_Zephyr
FTL:"...On May 26, 1934, it set a speed record for travel between Denver, Colorado, and Chicago, Illinois, when it made a 1,015-mile (1,633 km) non-stop "Dawn-to-Dusk" dash in 13 hours 5 minutes at an average speed of 77 mph (124 km/h). For one section of the run it reached a speed of 112.5 mph (181 km/h), just short of the then US land speed record of 115 mph (185 km/h). The historic dash inspired a 1934 film and the train's nickname, "Silver Streak".[1][2][3][4]
Speed Records(?) You bet, but for the instant, legends in the minds of those observers and crews who were there. Many American records are suspect as the documentation wether "Official" or not, is mostly lacking.
The Europeans when the go after a record seem to do it right, they have it verified by documentation and observation with specific metrics for 'the Records' by Official Time and Record Keeping Organizations. Not so much so in the USA, It is an opportunity of circumstances and the individuals involved.
Onbe incident that was 'done right was the run of the NYC RR's M-497
http://jalopnik.com/359202/new-york-centrals-m+497-jet-powered-train
FTL:"...The build came in the form of a US Air Force surplus General Electric J47-19 jet engines in a B36-H bomber engine pod planted on the roof of a modified Budd commuter car with a custom made, fitted cowling. On a high speed test run between in 1966 between Butler, IN and Stryker, OH, the M-497 reached a top speed of 183.681mph-- still the current high speed record for light rail in the United States. With the rails proven capable of high speed transit, the experimental was dismantled and the M497 returned to civilian duty as an NYC commuter car, running the route between Poughkeepsie and Harmon for Metro North where it live until its sale to Conrail in May 1976. In an undignified end, the car was cannibalized for parts in Dec. 1977 and scrapped by Metro-North in 1984..."
[Copied the following Tale which was posted as noted by locoi1sa ( to whom I am grateful! This sort of rests my case about Speed and Rumors of those runs...] linked to MR Forum: http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/forums/t/203538.aspx
But the goal was not scientific measurments of speed but rather the hype and PR and bragging ability, the sensationlism.
I would submit that the 106.1 MPH was incidental to the trip, not a planned part of it.
The stated goal was 44 hours to Chicago. That simply required the average 50-ish speeds they attained.
I wouldn't be surprised if the "record" wasn't an ad hoc effort by the crew at the moment.
"How's she running?"
"Pretty good!"
"There's a good stretch of track up ahead, let's see what she'll do!"
"Let's get her primed!"
Having read the article and everyone's posts, I beleive that ATSF dropped the ball by not having some independant third party, perhaps someone from the American Society of Mechanical Engineers to be in charge of the speed measurement and record keeping. That person or persons would have published a paper telling exactly what they did , what equipment they used and what data they measured. Such an academic treatment of this experiment would have put to rest any questions about what actually happened. The article stated that Mr. Scott rushed everyone invloved into this trip for no good reason that I can find. I have to wonder why a big company like ATSF would allowed this to happen and why someone with them did not take the time necessary for a good and complete execution of this experiment.
jpwoodruffFor myself, I know something about physics and a lot less aboutrailroads. None of these arguments is presented in enough detail tojudge whether the physics is right. There may well be data to supportthe conclusion, however as of now it's an argument on authority.John
Yes, the claimed debunking sounds like a bad case of sour grapes to me.
I wish I could find my old issue of Trains that covered this Death Valley Scotty run in a tone of admiration for the speed record and the performance of the AT&SF. It would sure draw a distinction between the magazine editorial attitude under DPM versus Trains magazine of today.
And about as many crew changes, too, I believe ! About 2-1/2 hrs. on duty for each, on average.
Unfortunately, that aspect wasn't much different by the time of the SuperC express intermodal train in the late 1960's - early 1970's. Wonder what it is now - 6 or 8 or so crews, probably.
- Paul North.
[sarcasm]
It is my belief that the world is flat - To confirm my conclusions I talked with the Pope that excommunicated Galileo ..... he confirmed my beliefs and presented his science of the age to prove it....
[/sarcasm]
History is full of myths and falsehoods that have been proven incorrect by modern methods - yet we still refer to them as a part of the fabric of society.
I am more amazed by the fact that there were 19 engine changes within the elapsed time of the run.
jpwoodruff "To confirm my conclusions, I talked with Bill Withuhn. He recentlyretired as the Smithsonian's curator of transportation and is anexperienced steam locomotive engineer. His forthcoming book will bethe definitive history of modern steam locomotives. Years ago he rancalculations to determine the power output of New York Central's4-4-0 No. 999 (whose wishful 112.5-mph pace achieved in 1893 had beendiscredited within a decade) as well as Pennsylvania 4-4-2 No. 7002(the engine unofficially credited with going 127 mph in 1905).
"To confirm my conclusions, I talked with Bill Withuhn. He recentlyretired as the Smithsonian's curator of transportation and is anexperienced steam locomotive engineer. His forthcoming book will bethe definitive history of modern steam locomotives. Years ago he rancalculations to determine the power output of New York Central's4-4-0 No. 999 (whose wishful 112.5-mph pace achieved in 1893 had beendiscredited within a decade) as well as Pennsylvania 4-4-2 No. 7002(the engine unofficially credited with going 127 mph in 1905).
Near the end of the 11-paragraph sidebar, Hankey writes "None <of theparameters he lists> would have permitted a top speed of 106 mph ..." Immediately after that are the two paragraphs dealing with Withun'sanalysis of steam capability:"To confirm my conclusions, I talked with Bill Withuhn. He recentlyretired as the Smithsonian's curator of transportation and is anexperienced steam locomotive engineer. His forthcoming book will bethe definitive history of modern steam locomotives. Years ago he rancalculations to determine the power output of New York Central's4-4-0 No. 999 (whose wishful 112.5-mph pace achieved in 1893 had beendiscredited within a decade) as well as Pennsylvania 4-4-2 No. 7002(the engine unofficially credited with going 127 mph in 1905)."In his opinion, neither locomotive - and certainly not Santa FeNo. 510 - could have generated the boiler output or cylinderhorsepower needed to accelerate their trains past 80 or 90 mph underideal conditions. Furthermore, it is hard to imagine that a firemancould shovel enough coal into No.510's firebox quickly enough toachieve such an extreme speed as 106 mph. The boiler couldn't havemade steam quickly enough, in the volume required, at a high enoughtemperature to propel those 349 tons much past 90 mph. It's a matterof energy inputs and mechanical outcomes."For myself, I know something about physics and a lot less aboutrailroads. None of these arguments is presented in enough detail tojudge whether the physics is right. There may well be data to supportthe conclusion, however as of now it's an argument on authority.John
overall A stupid question, but, did not the operators along the railroad record the time the train paased on a train sheet? Isn't it a crime to falsify that? George
A stupid question, but, did not the operators along the railroad record the time the train paased on a train sheet? Isn't it a crime to falsify that?
Yes. And yes. But since, unike European roads where trains are timed at the quarters and half minute marks as well as the full minute, American roads have always used the nearest full minute or within the minute as deemed neccessary. Thus a train could go by station A at 1:01:00 and B station at 1:02:30 and be OS's a minute apart while it actually was a minute and a half. In one mile that could be the difference between 60 mph and 40mph. I am sure with Death Valley Scotty and the ego's of the Sante Fe employees and managers, the best time was put forward, even through fudge.
As a 'debunking' article, I found it very ironic that it was placed in the magazine just prior to the one about the three railroaders that went down with the Titanic - the single event that took the bloom off the rose of that ages perception of mechanical infallibility.
tree68 With regard to the locomotive in question not being capable - one point made in his piece was that "the fireman" would not be able to keep up with the demands for steam. It was also pointed out that the locomotive wasn't really capable of generating that much steam. The accounts of the trip indicate that there were other railroad officials in the cab. It's not beyond possibility that the locomotive entered the ersatz "speed trap" with a roaring fire in the firebox, a boiler topped off with water, the pops lifting, and several people with scoops in hand, ready to feed the fire. These folks lived steam and would have understood how to do it. It clearly would have taken a concerted effort by all involved to pull it off, and there were dangerous implications if something went wrong, but it's still possible they accomplished the feat. I'd opine that by the time they got to the end of their brief effort that the fire was less than optimum and steam pressure was down. The 106 MPH may not have sustainable for any significant distance, but it was likely possible for the short distance (2.8 miles) they claimed they achieved it. And, oh, by the way, the entire time elapsed at 106 MPH would have been all of 95 seconds...
With regard to the locomotive in question not being capable - one point made in his piece was that "the fireman" would not be able to keep up with the demands for steam.
It was also pointed out that the locomotive wasn't really capable of generating that much steam.
The accounts of the trip indicate that there were other railroad officials in the cab. It's not beyond possibility that the locomotive entered the ersatz "speed trap" with a roaring fire in the firebox, a boiler topped off with water, the pops lifting, and several people with scoops in hand, ready to feed the fire. These folks lived steam and would have understood how to do it.
It clearly would have taken a concerted effort by all involved to pull it off, and there were dangerous implications if something went wrong, but it's still possible they accomplished the feat. I'd opine that by the time they got to the end of their brief effort that the fire was less than optimum and steam pressure was down. The 106 MPH may not have sustainable for any significant distance, but it was likely possible for the short distance (2.8 miles) they claimed they achieved it.
And, oh, by the way, the entire time elapsed at 106 MPH would have been all of 95 seconds...
BaltACD Finally got the opportunity to read the article - My observation, Mr. Hankey wanted to do everything possible to shoot down the 'aura' that has been created by this run over the past 100 years. I am not saying that Mr. Hankey was lying about anything he stated, however, the manner in which things were stated were couched to provide the worst possible picture of Death Valley Scotty and anything he touched.
Finally got the opportunity to read the article - My observation, Mr. Hankey wanted to do everything possible to shoot down the 'aura' that has been created by this run over the past 100 years. I am not saying that Mr. Hankey was lying about anything he stated, however, the manner in which things were stated were couched to provide the worst possible picture of Death Valley Scotty and anything he touched.
Death Valley Scotty was maybe as colorful and entertaining as any character associated with (the latter days of) the Old West.
His personal monument at Death Valley National Park, that castle, is a wonder to see.
But his reputation as self-promoting phony is also well-earned. If he told the complete truth about anything, THAT was news.
CSSHEGEWISCHEven with a watch with a sweep second hand or a stopwatch, a lot of potential errors can creep into the timing.
Yes, it is quite possible that the speed may have been significantly higher than 106 mph. My guess is that they got up to 110 mph. A lot of times those old watches ran too slow.
Even with a watch with a sweep second hand or a stopwatch, a lot of potential errors can creep into the timing. Since a stopwatch of that period was started and stopped by hand, a timing can be started or stopped at the wrong place and even a one second error will cause a variance of about 3 MPH in that speed range and the variances get larger as the speed claims get higher. Any claimed timings made by hand must be taken with a grain of salt.
jpwoodruff,
Thanks for that information. I have not seen the article yet, so I can only go by what I am told about it.
Regarding your details about the article:
Well sure, if the time were measured wrong, the speed would be wrong. But just the possibility of error or fraud is not at all evidence that it actually happened. Railroaders knew their stuff back in those days when it came to timekeeping and fast running.
Just the fact that this event was staged by a railroad company ought to lend substantial credibility to the speed claims. They published a clear and comprehensive record of this run in a timetable format with station points, mileage, and times, along with calculations of maximum speeds reached in many specific locations. This speed clocking hardly seems like a mere amateur production by spectators here and there who happened to have watches.
Interestingly, the ATSF did not permit their enginemen to simply run the fastest speed possible on this run. They told them they could exceed the limit, but only within a safe margin, depending on conditions and location.
I have to wonder what the technical foundation is for an opinion that the #510 could not have accelerated its train past 80-90 mph. Are you saying that it is only one man’s opinion? Does Mr. Hankey not provide a formal engineering analysis and calculation showing the weight of the train, horsepower, condition of the track, wind direction, air temperature, quality of coal, pounds of coal per minute burned, track grades and curves, etc.?
So this whole supposed debunking rests only on the possibility that a clocking error might have occurred, and it might have resulted in 100 mph being misreported as 106 mph; and one person has an opinion that the locomotive was not capable of exceeding 90 mph?
This supposed debunking sounds like it is coming from people who believe railroading was anachronism incapable of heroic feats until the pinnacle of the super power era. It sounds to me like a collection of little doubts all strung together to reach for a preconceived conclusion.
It would seem to me that the capabilities of the locomotive would be more in question than the timekeeping. I do believe most railroaders had company watches (or they were at least checked by the company) that would have been capable of measuring time down to the second, as Hankey notes.
Using the published mileposts for the two stations vs two actual consecutive mileposts actually increases the precision of the measurement. We have no reason to believe the railroad fudged the locations of their stations. Mileposts are known to vary, but unless a railroad is trying to up their mileage for some reason, there's no reason to assume that they're all short.
I find his hysterical "That's impossible!" tone almost as incredible as the speed claim. Maybe even moreso.
Bucyrus, you are right. That's what I get for not using a calculator. Thanks for the correction.
The locomotive in question is ATSF 4-4-2 no. 510, a Baldwin saturated, balanced compound built in 1904.
Tim
I've just reread Mr Hankey's sidebar. He doubts both the accuracy ofthe timing and also the ability of the locomotive. No one knows who did the time measurement (1m 35s over 2.8 mi), butperhaps someone among the party used his own watch? If the time were1m 40sec instead of 5 seconds shorter, the speed would have been 100.8mph - still plenty fast, it seems to me.For the part of his claim based on the locomotive, the author invokeda conversation with Mr. Bill Withuhn, who studied speed claims forsteam locomotives from 1893 and 1905.Hankey writes "In his (BW's) opinion, neither locomotive - andcertainly not Santa Fe No. 510 - could have generated the boileroutput or cylinder horsepower needed to accelerate their trains past80 or 90 mph under ideal conditions. Furthermore it is hard toimagine that a fireman could shovel enough coal ..." "The boilercouldn't have made steam quickly enough,..."
tpatrick timz: In a letter in Rwy Age for 25 April 1936, M. D. Franey said an LS&MS 4-6-2 had run the 7.53 miles from Amherst to Vermilion OH in three minutes. No one can show a timekeeping error, and probably no one can show a mileage error. So, no reason to doubt it? 7.53 miles in 3 minutes would be only 156 mph. Who would question that? (to be read with sarcasm) Tim
timz: In a letter in Rwy Age for 25 April 1936, M. D. Franey said an LS&MS 4-6-2 had run the 7.53 miles from Amherst to Vermilion OH in three minutes. No one can show a timekeeping error, and probably no one can show a mileage error. So, no reason to doubt it?
In a letter in Rwy Age for 25 April 1936, M. D. Franey said an LS&MS 4-6-2 had run the 7.53 miles from Amherst to Vermilion OH in three minutes. No one can show a timekeeping error, and probably no one can show a mileage error. So, no reason to doubt it?
7.53 miles in 3 minutes would be only 156 mph. Who would question that? (to be read with sarcasm)
Not meaning to debunk your math, but, with all due respect, I have a sneaking suspicion that your calculation is off by 5.4 mph. Perhaps Mr. Hankey made a similar error.
By the way, which locomotive are we talking about for the claim of 106.1 mph?
CricketerScience "proves" bumblebees can't fly is of course an urban myth. But then criticising science is quite popular at the moment...
That may be, but it is a readily understandable way to make my point that actual physical results can be calculated mathematically, only to turn out differently than predicted because the calculation was in error, or more commonly, did not take into account the full range of variables that applied.
But, as I said before, if Mr. Hankey calculated that 106.1 mph was not possible, he surely must have found what speed was possible in that same calculation. And I cannot believe that he would not state that for the record in the Trains article. However, until I see the article, I can only assume he does state the maximum possible speed in the article.
The word, debunk is a strong, utterly confident word. It does not mean that you merely question or take issue with something. It means a crushing and humiliating refutation of someone’s claim beyond all shadow of a doubt. Debunk would be a fitting characterization if, for instance, you proved that the entire Walter Scott speed run was made up fiction and never happened.
On the contrary, publishing a claim to have debunked a century-old speed record by splitting hairs on the basis of some math calculation seems almost like a bigger publicity stunt than Scott’s speed run.
So, again I ask those who have read the article, what was the maximum speed possible according to Mr. Hankey’s calculations? Anybody??
timz In a letter in Rwy Age for 25 April 1936, M. D. Franey said an LS&MS 4-6-2 had run the 7.53 miles from Amherst to Vermilion OH in three minutes. No one can show a timekeeping error, and probably no one can show a mileage error. So, no reason to doubt it?
Feltonhill, thanks for the input. I hadn't thought of direct heating surface. It makes sense.
BucyrusI do not understand what reason there is to doubt a speed claim of 106 mph from a 4-4-2 locomotive and train of that era. I could understand the doubt if there were some type of timekeeping or mileage error that could be shown.
Bucyrus Firelock76: Does it really, really matter whether Death Valley Scotty's train hit 106mph or not? I can think of a lot more important things to lose sleep over. It must have mattered enough to write and publish an article claiming to have proved that the record was a lie.
Firelock76: Does it really, really matter whether Death Valley Scotty's train hit 106mph or not? I can think of a lot more important things to lose sleep over.
Does it really, really matter whether Death Valley Scotty's train hit 106mph or not? I can think of a lot more important things to lose sleep over.
It must have mattered enough to write and publish an article claiming to have proved that the record was a lie.
I've got a lot of respect for John Hankey, he's gone places and done things I would have loved to do and done them well. That being said, maybe he just had to write an article about SOMETHING and debunking Death Valley Scotty's run was as good a subject as any. Or maybe he just felt like stirring up some "stuff", if you know what I mean. Love ya John, keep up the good work!
Science "proves" bumblebees can't fly is of course an urban myth. But then criticising science is quite popular at the moment...
Again I've not red this article yet...but from past articles and understandings everybody was holding stop watches: trainmen, trainmasters, superindentants, on lookers, gawkers, operators, agents, the bulls, and, if he weren't otherwise occupied by companions and consumptions, Scotty himself. And I bet the PR people took the best times off each watch at each inch! That's what Scotty was paying for and that's what the public gobbled up.
Somebody's nit really needed picking. Must have been one of the Witt brothers!
Firelock76 Does it really, really matter whether Death Valley Scotty's train hit 106mph or not? I can think of a lot more important things to lose sleep over.
“From the little hamlet of Cameron to the still smaller one of Surrey is 2.8 miles. “She” made in one minute and thirty-five seconds at a rate of 106 miles an hour.”
I did the math and it comes out to 106.105 miles per hour.
I am very anxious to read Mr. Hankey’s article, but I will have to wait until the magazine hits the news stand, and that won’t be for another month. But as I gather from what has been said here, Mr. Hankey has refuted the claim of 106 mph based on some type of scientific calculation that supposedly proves the speed was not possible.
So, what is the maximum speed that Mr. Hankey’s calculations prove was possible with that train?
The previous record was 102 mph on the PRR about ten years earlier. It seems to me that if 102 mph was clocked for that record, 106 mph would not be far fetched.
Remember, scientific calculations prove that a bumblebee cannot fly.
Speed timings for this run would have been 'timed' by Operators reporting OS times for the train past their station. Those times are reported in Hour and Minute....NO Seconds are reported.
Can't speak to the road where the timing occurred, however, I suspect all railroads at the time had procedures in place for all 'Standard Clocks' to be synchronized on a daily basis. On my carrier this synchronization procedure was transmitted on the Dispatcher's Wire at Noon, daily. This leads to the question, were all clocks actually keeping 'the same' time. Was the operator reporting the time reporting 55-59 seconds as the actual minute or the next minute. We can time things to the nano nano second accuracy today - we could not then.
One minute (plus or minus) on a OS reporting can have a big difference on the calculated speeds between two points.
Hankey was referring to the direct heating surface (firebox and later combustion chamber) of the locomotive, not the grate area. 4-4-2's of the era would have had something in the range of 190 Sf of direct heating surface. This is where most of the heat transfer takes place. The tubes and flues constitute the indirect heating surface where additional heat from combustion gasses is transferred to the water in the boiler..
I just received my Trains today and may not get to read it until Monday or Tuesday. However, as to other railroads as well as the Sante Fe adapting locomotives to the same: simply the engine and railroad were specially prepared to allow for the fastest passage of the train. Quality coal and water, the most skilled engineers of the divisions, spiked switches, well cleared meets and overtakes, etc., all things that are too expensive and time consuming to do under ordinary operating circumstances.
Paul,
I guess I will have to read the article, and also read up on that speed run. I think Trains covered that event in some long ago back issue. But I must say that I am skeptical of Hankey’s conclusion, as I understand your explanation of it. But setting that aside, I do not understand what reason there is to doubt a speed claim of 106 mph from a 4-4-2 locomotive and train of that era. I could understand the doubt if there were some type of timekeeping or mileage error that could be shown.
But specifically relating to your explanation of Hankey’s conclusion, why would there need to be a sudden acceleration to get up to speed within a limited distance before entering the measured mile? Do we even know that that was the case? I would assume that if one were to clock a top possible speed in a measured mile, one would make sure the train was running as fast as possible before entering that measured mile.
Also, I don’t understand the conclusion that if the run were credible, everybody else would have modified their locomotives to do the same thing. Was this particular locomotive modified in some unique way to achieve this speed?
If it was specially built to set this speed record, it would not necessarily follow that the company would then run their passenger trains that fast on a routine basis; nor would it follow that other competing lines would build the same design for the purpose of running their trains that fast. Locomotive speed potential is one thing, and safe speed limits is another.
For the time being, I won’t go into my intuitive reasons for questioning the motives of this debunking.
As I understand it: thermodynamics; the usual rules of physics for conservation of energy; the usual rules of mechanics for power used <= and balancing the power produced for a constant speed at a certain level of train resistance; and most critically, the huge increment in power needed to suddenly accelerate that train from the lower speed in the immediately preceding mile to the 106 MPH rate in the measured mile - where did that power come from all of a sudden ? Kind of like me jogging at my usual torpid pace, then all of a sudden going at a 4-minute mile pace, then back to the slower slog. Plus, comparing this loco and run to other similar locos and runs - it doesn't 'jibe'.
Finally, my point is that if this run were credible and repeatable, everyone else would have changed the proportions of their locomotives to match ASAP so as to also reap the same benefit - imitation being flattery, and all that - but that didn't happen.
What is the basis of Mr. Hankey's assertion that the speed claim is untrue?
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