Keep in mind that the engineer is not controlling the train right now - he (or she) is telling a computer what they want and the computer controls the train. And as others have said, sometimes the engineer is simply doing what some other computer tells him (or her) is the best thing to do. The technology is already there.
As far as taking jobs away - the railroad is there to do a job in the most cost effective way possible, it's not there to provide jobs. If the railroad is ineffcient, then another mode of transportation will take over and there will be no jobs for you at all.
If the railroads, govt, and unions hadn't stuck their heads in the sand in the early 20th century, they would have been more competitive with trucks and maybe, just maybe, there would be way more freight traveling on railroads and less on trucks today - and more railroad jobs.
schlimm Bucyrus: It is interesting how much resistance there seems to be about crewless trains. I thought change and progress were good. It almost sounds like denial of the inevitable like when they used to say that you could not run freight trains without cabooses. This is clearly a very controversial thread. But Bucyrus makes a good point about cabooses. The same was true with regard to the necessity of firemen on diesel locomotives. The end of those practices did not lead to a sharp increase, if any, in accidents. increased automation seems inevitable, though the pace will be slow.
Bucyrus: It is interesting how much resistance there seems to be about crewless trains. I thought change and progress were good. It almost sounds like denial of the inevitable like when they used to say that you could not run freight trains without cabooses.
This is clearly a very controversial thread. But Bucyrus makes a good point about cabooses. The same was true with regard to the necessity of firemen on diesel locomotives. The end of those practices did not lead to a sharp increase, if any, in accidents. increased automation seems inevitable, though the pace will be slow.
Here is a good example of applied technology used to make money. Yes, the crew was able to be reduced but safety was gained while the costs went down; the cost of owning and maintaining the car was gone, too. while train size was able to be increased because you didn't have a whipping jerk when the quarter mile of slack ran out at the caboose's coupler. And by moving the conductor to the locomotive cab, you had that second set of eyes ahead and company for the engineer (time, motion, monotony studies like two people instead of one for long periods of time).n Trackside detectors were able to monitor the train's hardware and EOTD kept an eye on the train line and connections. It in fact, did improve to product and service while making a safer working environment for the employees and allowed the railroad to make more money by being able to control rates better.
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In my business, radio broadcasting, managers and owners embraced automation to get rid of payroll and insurances and ego's. They did it to save money not to make money. Importing newscasts from 500+ miles away, replacing local talent with some guy who's never heard of the burg he's all of a sudden supposed to be the big star, commercials now written by the salesperson and sent to the next state to be recorded. If there were to be local voices, minimum wagers with stars in the eyes but not a real bent fo the business, were hired. In short, listeners and advertisers have been short changed in quality and real quanties of news and entertainment. A few, however, very few in fact, looked at automation as a chance to make rather than save money. They got two good, talented, local people to split by overlapping a whole day, being able to do in 12 hours what used to be up to five to 10 people 24/7. So, if railroads are going to fully automate to save money, they are doing it for the wrong reasons. If they are going to do it to make money...then they'll be creative and apply the new technologies to make things happen and happen to the benefit of the customers and the bottom line at the same time. Too many who concentrate on the bottom line fall below it and never recover.
They used to say that diesels would never replace steam except for maybe yard work.
don't worry about it...these crewless posts come along about every year or so, the prognosticators have their say, people get mad, and its all back to normal after that...
Bucyrus Yes there will be drawbars breaking, air hoses needing replacement, brakes that need to be cut out, and lots of other things that go wrong with locomotives and cars. These problems will need a network of men in trucks staged and ready to descend on any mechanical problem. Communications, mobility, preparedness, manpower, and teamwork will be ready to fix anything in short order. They will drive right to any problem along the train. There will be no more carrying knuckles through the snow. The mobil repair service will be like a traveling pit stop that goes where it is needed. This is an added expense that must be paid for by the elimination of trainmen, but it will also be paid for by the fact that it will get the repair job done much faster than trainmen do.
Yes there will be drawbars breaking, air hoses needing replacement, brakes that need to be cut out, and lots of other things that go wrong with locomotives and cars. These problems will need a network of men in trucks staged and ready to descend on any mechanical problem. Communications, mobility, preparedness, manpower, and teamwork will be ready to fix anything in short order. They will drive right to any problem along the train.
There will be no more carrying knuckles through the snow. The mobil repair service will be like a traveling pit stop that goes where it is needed. This is an added expense that must be paid for by the elimination of trainmen, but it will also be paid for by the fact that it will get the repair job done much faster than trainmen do.
LMAO! What ? Funniest thing I've read all day.
Bucyrus It is interesting how much resistance there seems to be about crewless trains. I thought change and progress were good. It almost sounds like denial of the inevitable like when they used to say that you could not run freight trains without cabooses. You dont work for the railroad do you? Resistance, yea you could say that although I call it something else, something they wont let me say on this forum.
You overlook the reality of staffing - there isn't any. When, and if, the carrier would go to crewless trains, they will also to with crewless maintenance. People that talk about maintenance crews at the ready to perform any necessary function are smoking something illegal...such crews cost money and the name of the game is to cut cost. Secondly, many locations are not accessible by off track means - you either get there on track or not at all.
At present, with the mechanically declined nature of new hire crewmen, Mechanical Department assistance is frequently called - even with personnel on duty - average response time is 2-4 hours to get on scene; without increased staffing that will not get any faster.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
For now at least reducing crew size or eliiminating on board crews altogether sounds like the perfect solution to a problem that doesn't exist. There's no pressing need to cut crew size.. the real cost savings are questionable as the work itself still needs to be done regardless of who or what does it. Are machines that much cheaper? Is someone working in an office cubicle instead of a locomotive cab that much cheaper and more effective than onboard personnel? Who knows.
Every advance in technology has it's corresponding costs - costs that may not be readily apparent to a outsider.
The replacement of the $100K + staff cost caboose with the $5K EOT has the hidden costs of excessive line of road delay times when trains have mechanical issues. With a staffed caboose inspection of the train was performed on two fronts - from the front and the rear of the train - when the problem was found and resolved in many instances the train would pull ahead and both crewmen would get on the caboose thus keeping delay to the absolute minimum. With the EOT, the inspection of the train can only occur from the head end, the problem must be minor enough that a single man with very minimal tools can resolve it and after the problem is resolved the crewman must then return to the head end of the train. With normal train lengths being 9000 feet and greater, you have now shut you mainline down for the length of time it takes for the crewman to walk over 3.5 miles on main track ballast most frequently at night in all forms of weather including knee high snow - you have saved the expense of the caboose and it's staffing at the cost of tying up the mainline for a extended period of time - on a high volume line that cascading effect of the delays grows like the wave effect of throwing a rock in the middle of a still pond.
What will be the costs of a unmanned train that experiences mechanical issues from either the train itself or from its motive power. No form of transportation is free from mechanical issues - manned or unmanned.
Bucyrus It is interesting how much resistance there seems to be about crewless trains. I thought change and progress were good. It almost sounds like denial of the inevitable like when they used to say that you could not run freight trains without cabooses. I would say that automated running is just as inevitable as cabooseless trains. It will come in stages though. With an open right of way, watching for intrusions will always be an issue. So until spotting irregularities becomes automated, human eyes will have to do it. However, they can do it from a stationary office just as well as they can from the locomotive cab. Switching too will be automated. The whole railroad plant is heading toward something like a giant vending machine.
I would say that automated running is just as inevitable as cabooseless trains. It will come in stages though. With an open right of way, watching for intrusions will always be an issue. So until spotting irregularities becomes automated, human eyes will have to do it. However, they can do it from a stationary office just as well as they can from the locomotive cab. Switching too will be automated. The whole railroad plant is heading toward something like a giant vending machine.
Bucyrus It is interesting how much resistance there seems to be about crewless trains. I thought change and progress were good. It almost sounds like denial of the inevitable like when they used to say that you could not run freight trains without cabooses.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
It is interesting how much resistance there seems to be about crewless trains. I thought change and progress were good. It almost sounds like denial of the inevitable like when they used to say that you could not run freight trains without cabooses.
Automation isn't always a good thing . Look at the lowly receptionist...that job seems to be making a comeback as people grow ever more frustrated with having to deal with machines and voicemail. Having someone friendly who can think in that role beats the most sophisticated machine any time of day. Same is probably true of most jobs.. anything that requires thought and judgement is best left to a person, at least for the time being.
The Carol Lake Mine railroad in Canada has been running unmanned since the early 60's. That being said, it is a unit train shuttling back and forth over a short distance with some meets on the way. It is electrified and relatively short (20 cars or so if I remember right.) It is also in an area where the right of way is remote and very controlled.
That being said, let's jump ahead 50 years. The technology for normal operation unattended has been here a long time. The Rio Tinto trains will be in an extremely remote area and will have very little chance of unintentional interference on the right of way. The trains are very large, but with distributed power and ECP brakes, this isn't so much of a problem anymore. The local BNSF engineers liked the ECP brakes on their ore trains when they had them. They could bring a 20,000 ton train to an emergency stop just like a passenger train.
Now, we have this 40,000 or 60,000 ton train crossing mostly uninhabited desert at slow speed with no one in the cab. There is no work along the way and now with roller bearings hot boxes are very rare. By the way, weather isn't a problem 364.8 days of the year.
Think about it, just like some airplanes, the engineer already controls the locomotive through a computer, as well as controlling distributed power. Heck, they've been controlling second, third, and fourth multiple units from one location since the late 30's. Some version of PTC can keep trains aware of where each other are and avoid conflicts. Radio control of locomotives has been around for 60 years. GPS can keep track of both the front and rear of a train and make sure they are both going the same speed. CTC has been around for over 100 years and can remotely control switches and signal aspects. Computer vision has developed to a point where it can detect an obstruction on the track, though it is unlikely to be avoided any more than it is today with human engineers. The foundations have been around for a long time.
So, 99% of the time everything works fine. 1% of the time something goes wrong and the train stops. If it can't be remotely diagnosed and worked around, send someone out in a helicopter to see what the problem is (this country is that remote). If it involves a derailment, well, that happens whether there is someone on the train or not.
I suspect that what will happen is that the main line run will either be fully unmanned or will be supervised remotely in an office. Someone will probably take over direct control at the terminals, though they may still not be on the locomotive.
It certainly makes sense on a line like this running many hundred miles at low speed with no civilization en route to provide crew change points to put the operator in an office in a town. Pity the poor maintenance guys that have to live in the Outback because they have to physically be there.
One good thing about machines is that they don't have any emotions (yet)... when things go badly wrong they just kind of just sit there helplessly (well...actually...alot of people do that too)..
zugmann [snipped] Besides, I can't trust machines. We all know they will come to life to wage a never ending war on humanity. Our only hope will be to use crude, non electronic weaponry against them. Swords soaked in non-synthetic oil, driven straight into the core of their CPUs. Many will be sacrificed in the war, but we must be victorious. The future of mankind depends on it.
Paul_D_North_Jr BM&LP was supposed to be 'crewless', but that was never achieved. Eventually they gave up and are now run by a 1 or 2-man crew. See http://www.trainweb.org/southwestshorts/bmlpsteps.html and http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?1,733437 The Muskingum Electric RR was a 20-mile long automated mine-to-power-plant railroad - see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muskingum_Electric_Railroad One of the Iron Ore Company of Canada / Quebec, North Shore & Labrador mine-to-crusher at Carol Lake is also an "Automated Train Operation" or "ATO" - see: http://www.trainweb.org/trainmaster/page11.html and http://sinfin.net/railways/world/canada/lab-qns.html The PATCO "Speedline"/ High Speed Line (subway-surface heavy rail type) from Phila., PA to Lindenwold, NJ is supposedly automated, but still has an attendant on-board in the cab 'just in case' and is occasionally used such as in bad weather - see: http://www.ridepatco.org/about/history.html and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PATCO_Speedline#Operation Note that they're all electrified . . . I'll skip the various airport and urban 'people-mover' trams and monorails, etc. - Paul North.
BM&LP was supposed to be 'crewless', but that was never achieved. Eventually they gave up and are now run by a 1 or 2-man crew. See http://www.trainweb.org/southwestshorts/bmlpsteps.html and http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?1,733437
The Muskingum Electric RR was a 20-mile long automated mine-to-power-plant railroad - see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muskingum_Electric_Railroad
One of the Iron Ore Company of Canada / Quebec, North Shore & Labrador mine-to-crusher at Carol Lake is also an "Automated Train Operation" or "ATO" - see: http://www.trainweb.org/trainmaster/page11.html and http://sinfin.net/railways/world/canada/lab-qns.html
The PATCO "Speedline"/ High Speed Line (subway-surface heavy rail type) from Phila., PA to Lindenwold, NJ is supposedly automated, but still has an attendant on-board in the cab 'just in case' and is occasionally used such as in bad weather - see: http://www.ridepatco.org/about/history.html and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PATCO_Speedline#Operation
Note that they're all electrified . . .
I'll skip the various airport and urban 'people-mover' trams and monorails, etc.
- Paul North.
The Skytrain lines in Vancouver BC are totally automated - both the linear induction propulsion trains and the traditional "traction" propulsion. No operator. No attendant. Nobody.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
And just because something CAN be done doesn't necessarily mean that it will be or even should be. There are economic considerations as well.. Two people on one of these incredibly long double stack trains is already very efficient...most any other business could only dream of getting that level of productivity out of two people.
By the time they get this automation thing figured out, they won't need it. With just about everything replaced by machines, no one will have any money to buy stuff (except the few programmers that made this all possible justifying their jobs).
Besides, I can't trust machines. We all know they will come to life to wage a never ending war on humanity. Our only hope will be to use crude, non electronic weaponry against them. Swords soaked in non-synthetic oil, driven straight into the core of their CPUs. Many will be sacrificed in the war, but we must be victorious. The future of mankind depends on it.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
henry6 I am always looking for progress, safety, something new...but this conversation is making me think we are dangerously eroding the integrity and self preservatoin of mankind dismissing him off into a role of just observing life going by instead being a part of it. I know this comment has no place here on a railfan page, but the comment is begged by the content.
I am always looking for progress, safety, something new...but this conversation is making me think we are dangerously eroding the integrity and self preservatoin of mankind dismissing him off into a role of just observing life going by instead being a part of it. I know this comment has no place here on a railfan page, but the comment is begged by the content.
Great post, you are absolutely right.
Human error will exist as long as we do, but I still think the idea of machines running trains is ludicrous. Machines and computers fail all the time....
greyhounds Georgia Railroader: I'm dead against anything that takes our jobs away. This technology is getting ridiculous. So were the Luddites. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/luddite The pace of change is only going to increase.
Georgia Railroader: I'm dead against anything that takes our jobs away. This technology is getting ridiculous.
I'm dead against anything that takes our jobs away. This technology is getting ridiculous.
So were the Luddites.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/luddite
The pace of change is only going to increase.
Sad but true.
Ulrich Georgia Railroader: I'm dead against anything that takes our jobs away. This technology is getting ridiculous. But it affects us all..no one is immune. All we can do is embrace change and try to keep up. Although I say that, I find it as hard as anyone to do it...I grew up in the 70s when high technology was a black and white TV and a telephone in the house. Now I've got customers who want to know if I'm hooked up to "the cloud" (back in the day that could have been taken differently as well..ha ha) !.. I'm just getting around to learning what all that is...and I always seem to be behind the eight ball on technology. Personally I prefer simple.. not everything needs a GPS or a camera.. And kitchen appliances don't all need to whistle or play melodies, but that's just my "outdated man from the 70s" opinion. Anyone remember appliances that you turned on by pressing an ON button? In retrospect that's so intuitive...now it seems you've got airplane controls for everything and you've pretty much got to do a raindance to get anything to work properly anymore.
But it affects us all..no one is immune. All we can do is embrace change and try to keep up. Although I say that, I find it as hard as anyone to do it...I grew up in the 70s when high technology was a black and white TV and a telephone in the house. Now I've got customers who want to know if I'm hooked up to "the cloud" (back in the day that could have been taken differently as well..ha ha) !.. I'm just getting around to learning what all that is...and I always seem to be behind the eight ball on technology. Personally I prefer simple.. not everything needs a GPS or a camera.. And kitchen appliances don't all need to whistle or play melodies, but that's just my "outdated man from the 70s" opinion. Anyone remember appliances that you turned on by pressing an ON button? In retrospect that's so intuitive...now it seems you've got airplane controls for everything and you've pretty much got to do a raindance to get anything to work properly anymore.
Yea but it's hard for me to embrace the idea of being replaced by a *** machine, just as so many people have been in the past. Robots have no place out here running trains up and down the mainline. Robots have no emotion, no feeling, no soul.....me and my brothers do and we'll fight this thing tooth and nail when and if it ever comes up. This isn't just my job, it's my life and I'll be damned if I go down without a fight. Rant over...
Georgia Railroader I'm dead against anything that takes our jobs away. This technology is getting ridiculous.
Well said sir! And as someone who works with technology let me remind all that circuit boards fail, wiring fails, control panels fail, keyboards fail, anything that's man-made can fail. Trust me, it can fail when you least expect it and it's never conveinient. If they want some 12,000 ton juggernaut out there on the rails with no-one on board, well, don't come crying if it goes "BANG!"
We went from discovering the very fundamentals of aviation on the sand dunes of North Carolina to landing a man on the moon in 65 years... I don't think we'll have to wait half that long for artifical intelligence to arrive... at which point some have suggested that we and our technology will merge to become one and the same.
Until the rights of way are completely separated and inaccessible to all but deliberate trespassing, or the railroads are completely indemnified against any interaction between them and the public, you won't see completely crewless trains. I don't look for remote controlled thru trains. If they feel comfortable with no one on board, it will be because the computer is in total control between terminals where work is to be done.
We are getting closer to the point where the computer will run the train and an "observer" will be onboard in case something fails or to do intermediate work. We are getting the LEADER system (something we've discussed on the forums before) and while it dosen't actually run the train (yet) it does tell the engineer how to run the train. (Following the Leader, some have experienced train separations but haven't been held accountable for it. They were doing what the computer said.) The current system also doesn't recognize signal indications or authority limits, it thinks the blocks are always clear. (For those situations you have to ignore the computer's prompts. Following the computer isn't an excuse for running a stop signal.) Eventually, as technology improves and any bugs are worked through, the computer will be able to run the train directly. It will be tied into PTC and operate the train accordingly. I think you'll still see engineers, and even conductors, for a while for a few reasons. At some point, there will be pressure to remove one of the crew members. Long before that I think there will be pressure to reduce wages and benefits as the skills needed are perceived to be reduced.
Railroad executives and stock holders may not be the only ones looking forward to crewless trains. Back in the late 1990s I read a column in a now defunct railfan magazine written by someone who worked for a railroad customer. He was looking forward to crewless trains because he thought the railroad would pass along the savings from having no crew members to his company in reduced freight rates. I myself have doubts that any savings would trickle down to the customers in any great amounts.
Jeff
The people movers at some airports run automatically, but their ROW is pretty well protected in all respects from possible interlopers.
"Over the road" railroading is a good distance from running robotically - there are too many factors involved, as has already been mentioned.
Go back to the Trains article about the Quebec ore railroads for an idea of one issue - support for problems like broken couplers, etc.
I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for any train crews to get replaced by a guy with a joystick in an office in {name a location}.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
zardoz Ulrich: Maybe that can be done from a home office as well. Time to log in as I'm running a double stack over Cajon in a minutes...but before I do I'll put out the trash and feed the dog. Kinda like how the military controls its drone airplanes? Oh, wait...didn't a super-high-tech stealth drone crash in Iran recently, allowing the enemy access to the technology? And weren't there rumors that Iran had actually caused the crash by hacking the controls? (8th paragraph: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/08/world/middleeast/drone-crash-in-iran-reveals-secret-us-surveillance-bid.html ) How interesting things will become when hackers learn how to hack the train controls. The TSA will have lots more to worry about than a grandpa standing trackside, or a grandma trying to 'smuggle' her shampoo on board an aircraft, resulting in a strip-search. But at least the news will become more interesting; too bad for those that will be paying the price....
Ulrich: Maybe that can be done from a home office as well. Time to log in as I'm running a double stack over Cajon in a minutes...but before I do I'll put out the trash and feed the dog.
Maybe that can be done from a home office as well. Time to log in as I'm running a double stack over Cajon in a minutes...but before I do I'll put out the trash and feed the dog.
Oh, wait...didn't a super-high-tech stealth drone crash in Iran recently, allowing the enemy access to the technology? And weren't there rumors that Iran had actually caused the crash by hacking the controls? (8th paragraph: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/08/world/middleeast/drone-crash-in-iran-reveals-secret-us-surveillance-bid.html )
How interesting things will become when hackers learn how to hack the train controls. The TSA will have lots more to worry about than a grandpa standing trackside, or a grandma trying to 'smuggle' her shampoo on board an aircraft, resulting in a strip-search.
But at least the news will become more interesting; too bad for those that will be paying the price....
I'm not a fan either...but I can see it coming. Sure, technology can go awry...but terrible things can happen when people are at the controls as well...anyone remember the CN accident near Hinton, AB in the 1980s? Two fully crewed trains ran head on into each other... no attempt to apply the brakes by either crew was made although passengers in the dome car of the VIA train who survived the collision could see it coming well in advance, one man reportly shouting OMG he's on our track!!!
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