She who has no signature! cinscocom-tmw
QUOTE: Originally posted by M.W. Hemphill 1 foot rise in 100 foot run = 1% 2 foot rise in 100 foot run = 2% 3.4533 foot rise in 100 foot run = 3.4533% That's all there is to it. 4% is pretty steep if you're walking up -- you'll feel it very quickly if you're not in shape.
QUOTE: Originally posted by dgwicks The previous topic where this was discussed is "Horse shoe curve"
Quentin
QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan Anything over 4% and you might as well use the clog system like they use in Switzerland.
QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie OK - silly me - I will ask - why wouldn't you use a cog system on the Saluda? Not efficient enough? Too heavy? Takes too long to move trains? I don't know - that's why I am here. Just seems like a really scary way to get from point to point to do it the "normal" way. Mook
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
QUOTE: Originally posted by tree68 QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie OK - silly me - I will ask - why wouldn't you use a cog system on the Saluda? Not efficient enough? Too heavy? Takes too long to move trains? I don't know - that's why I am here. Just seems like a really scary way to get from point to point to do it the "normal" way. Mook Maintenence issues notwithstanding - you would have to have a dedicated set of locos just for Saluda. It's not that they couldn't be used anywhere else on the system, but they'd be needed on the grade, so couldn't leave. Given enough traffic, that could be worthwhile. You'd also have to have enough spare cog-equipped locos to cover downtime for the primary set, and they would also be captive to the area near Saluda so they would be available if needed.
Being Crazy,keeps you from going "INSANE" !! "The light at the end of the tunnel,has been turned off due to budget cuts" NOT AFRAID A Vet., and PROUD OF IT!!
Originally posted by Lima Loco Its COMING DOWN 4% that gets tricky!!! with thousands of tons.. Sweat flows and lots of pucker. Cab heater gets foot prints on it. [/quote Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, August 20, 2004 11:47 PM re- Madison Hill... Last time I was there - tracks were still in place, but was not operated. I don't believe there are any active customers on the down-slope end, but the line is owned by the City of Madison, who is understandably reluctant to pull the tracks up. There is also a large power plant (coal burning, delivered by river barge - boo!) just downstream from the foot of the hill that occasionally has receieved oversize shipments of boilers, turbines, and such that raises a fuss anytime abandonment is brought up. Reply Edit Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Saturday, August 21, 2004 8:24 AM ...Mark, I totally agree with all stated in your last post. Ratios and mechanical advantage and adhesion, the whole bit....I have looked over Shays and read about their operation, etc...but never heard one run. That must have been quite a sound...with the 3-cylinders doing their thing in concert. I would like to have been standing at trackside in Saluda if one ever would have powered up the "hill" even all by itself....That sound must have sounded like a large sewing machine as it wound up to it's "6 mph" at "full speed".....! Wonder what was the primary reason they settled on 3-cylinders. Quentin Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Saturday, August 21, 2004 8:51 AM ...Does anyone know if the Shay like [not sure of the brand], engine that was at the Whitewater Valley Railroad, Connersville, In....years ago, is still there. Did they ever operate it on that 18 miles or so of tourist track down to Metamora...? Quentin Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Saturday, August 21, 2004 9:00 PM ....Yes, that's all interesting stuff. There was so much going on in shafts, bearings, universal joints [of some kind], and then the gear boxes at each axle...Wow...how was it all maintained to continue to operate reliable....It looks to me like the gear boxes were out in the open susceptible to the elements, dirt, etc...Must have required a bunch of greasing. One Item: On auto engine rotating many times to drive axle....Some not as much as one might think....Especially with overdrive transmissions now....and middle of the spectrum rear end ratios....My truck in top gear the final drive ratio is 2:39 to 1 so that turns the engine pretty slow going down the road. Of course just a bit over 2 revs. per axle rotation. Quentin Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, August 23, 2004 2:19 PM Yes adhesion is what determines how many cars can be pulled by a locomotive. A high addhesion locomotive can pull more cars. Doubleheading or trippleheading gets more over the hill in one cut. The problem at Saluda really came from runaways. The cars can start pushing the locomotive down the hill and unless the brakes are whistled for in time the engine cannot stop the train. At Saluda there have been cases of a train trying to go up the hill and having a reverse runaway. The engine is drug back down the hill. Again if brakes are not called for soon enough it is goodby! Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, August 23, 2004 2:23 PM Back to the Shay locomotives. Being from West Virginia I have visited and rode behind the Shays at the Cass Scenic Railroad. Also rode on the Yosemite Sugar Pine Railroad behind their Shay. They do have a whole lot of noise with very little forward motion. There are about 17.35 million points to lubricate on a Shay. I have one of the Bachman Shays in G gauge. I think it has about the same number of places to lubricate each Christmas (when it comes out of storage) as the real ones do. Reply Edit Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Monday, August 23, 2004 2:31 PM WT....You mention of adhesion being the limiting factor how much a locomotive can pull up a grade....I've been to Horseshoe Curve and watching a long TOFC just about stall as he was exiting the western side of the Cuve and he wasn't slipping...just about stalling the 2 or 3 engines that were on the front. Fortunately he was able to continue to craw on up and made it....I heard him talking on the radio and he actually was talking about the thought they were almost in a stall and wasn't sure if he could make it...But there was no slippage at the time....Just the weight pulling down the engines to almost nothing, etc.... Quentin Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Monday, August 23, 2004 2:37 PM PS....To continue a bit of above post of mine....I'm thinking possibly the engines were equipped with computer anti slip electronics and ability to cut power as needed to traction motor, etc...but the case I cited was about 10 years ago...Don't know what was available to handle that situation then. Quentin Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, August 23, 2004 5:56 PM Wow, I can't believe I missed this forum from the start. School's got me bogged down... Back to Saluda, there are several things to consider. The grade is only 3 miles long (which is 3 miles too many at that kind of grade) with the steepest at the top. It's hardly worthwhile to install a cog system for only 3 miles of track and would be overly complicated. When the trains went up, they were divided into 16 car sections at Melrose and hauled up to Saluda at 20 mph, not too bad of a speed, but takes a long time to do that for a 50 - 100 car long train. Coming down was a different story... but dynamic brakes and an 8 mph speed limit have kept Saluda run-away free for years. Reply Edit Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Monday, August 23, 2004 7:51 PM ....I'm assuming they kept the train in one piece to decend the grade.... Pulling up the hill at 20 mph is impressive....Didn't think it would be that fast. On the cog system....In my way of thinking, that would have been over kill in cost and maintenance, and special equipment needed plus adhesion evidently wasn't the problem....The problem now....for railfans...is no trains...! Too bad. Quentin Reply 12 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. 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