A Sneaker

[natelord]

The Bernina Pass line of the Rhaetian Railways in southeastern Switzerland has some 7% grades, the rest are mainly 6%. Riding up the line from Tornino, Italy, to Pontresina, Switzerland, is quite an experience--especially when the passenger units--passenger car and loccomotive combined--are pulling log-laden flat cars. The line is all adhesion--not a cog in sight.

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mark300

Mookie,

My high school algebra teacher had a mantra......and would repeat it as he demonstrated how to think about gradient;

'Rise over Run."

(& keeping the units the same; feet to feet and so forth),,,For me it's been a big help down through the years.

Mark

Thanx Mark - I will try to remember that. Need to go somewhere so I can actually see this in use!

Mook

[Overmod]

Rimutaka was worked using the Fell system, which is NOT a cog system. It uses horizontal adhesion wheels, clamped against a center rail with very strong springs.

Incidentally, the 'rack' engines are completely separate from the normal locomotive cylinders/drivers, and usually ran at a different speed. Four of these engines, therefore, sounded more like eight. Someone commented that watching four or five of them climb the Spiral was a sight worth coming 12,000 miles to see.

Fell, btw, would be a MUCH better choice for an 'assisted' Saluda than anything with fixed cogs. Wear and alignment problems alone with American loads and weights would prove substantial... we won't get into the probable difficulties with 'cog braking'. Note that there's little practical limitation on the *number* of adhesion-wheel pairs; the solution would then entail the use of 'helper MATEs' equipped with multiple electric-motor Fell units, drawing their power from appropriately-modified mothers (which of course could be useful elsewhere on the system, or provided in substantial enough numbers). Only a small number of the MATEs would be needed for anticipated travel over this relatively short grade, and should be capable of sufficient TE to take relatively long cuts of cars...

[Modelcar]

...But looking west from up on the bridge [and down where the depot used to be], that too is down grade, albeit not as severe as the other side of the summit.

[Modelcar]

....ianwoodmore.....Now it worked. Thanks. I'm trying to understand what I'm looking at in the matter of achieving adhesion...Does it work in the manner of 2 drive wheels horizonally positioned against the sides of the center rail with pressure and achieving proper adhesion to pull the train along the track without slipping....In other words, not using any rack and cog system....or did the sides of the center rail have a fine rack design and the driving wheels have the contacting cog against it...I'm guessing that's it as I now look closer.

[Anonymous]

It's pretty much all flat once you get into Saluda and out for those few miles to the west, or at least looks that way when you're driving on 176 and from the bridge. I'm sure they had it all figured out of course and had more weight of the train behind the crest than over, but it's still amazing just to think about.

[Modelcar]

BRF.....They probably balanced the train across the summit there in Saluda while doing the brake inspection...etc...Wouldn't be too difficult to hold under that situation. But I'm sure everyone had to know what they were doing and make sure they actually did get it strung across the top of the hill so it was mostly balanced. I'm sure everything had to be accomplished there to the book or trouble would start quick...!

[Anonymous]

Hi Modelcar,

The address is correct and the website is OK if you plug it in to Internet Explorer. However, my link above doesn't appear to work. Let's try again.

http://www.rimutaka-incline-railway.org.nz/index.html

OK now it works. Didn't hyperlink it.

Ian

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: ....I'm assuming they kept the train in one piece to decend the grade....
Pulling up the hill at 20 mph is impressive....

The train was kept in one piece for the descent, but the train did stop mostly at the top, the front part of the train was already leaning down the grade and I always thought to myself seeing it there what kept all of that weight from just rolling away. The train crew would inspect the brakes and make sure everything was ok before continuing down.

One time we "chased" the train up the mountain, going mostly parallel to the track on Pearson Falls Rd. It was hard to keep up with at times, it was actually going faster than us! We barely beat it into town. Then again, my grandmother was driving since I hadn't gotten my license yet. If it'd been me, I would have been there a long time before the train[;)]

[Modelcar]

...Is it just my site as I can't make the NZ site work re: Incline railway.

[Anonymous]

Thought you guys would like to see an example of an overseas rack and pinion.
This was a main line solution to get over a mountain divide in New Zealand. It was impressive to see up to four of these little locos taking a train up the grade. One of the added difficulties on this line was the high winds that were experienced. Nowadays a tunnel replaces it, but as you can see from this excellent website there are moves afoot to resurrect it as a tourist attraction.

http://www.rimutaka-incline-railway.org.nz/index.htm
l

[Modelcar]

...."4%, THAT'S NOTHING".....Tell that to the operations people that had to master running over Saluda and one may get a disagreement. Now 20% IS steep for a street or roadway. Was involved in testing years ago and we were on a 19% grade with a 25,000 gvw truck with an automatic...[experimental], and we stalled out not able to make it to the top....and controlling that rig getting it safely back down to where we could turn was not fun...

[Mark300]

Mookie,

My high school algebra teacher had a mantra......and would repeat it as he demonstrated how to think about gradient;

'Rise over Run."

(& keeping the units the same; feet to feet and so forth),,,For me it's been a big help down through the years.

Mark

[Anonymous]

4%?!? That's NOTHING!!!! Live on an island such as St. Thomas or St. John in the U.S.V.I. and you can have grades of 20% or more... course they have no TRAINS there..... but hell on autotransmission cars. Most people drive stick simply because autotransmissions burn out so fast

[phbrown]

Re: Saluda. Mark Hemphill remarked that a cog railroad would have been laid in a striaght line from top to bottom, with the costs being clearing land and trees. That's actually quite close to what they did. While the line from Saluda down to Melrose roughly follows the shape of an L, there's a ravine in the middle of the straight line (the same ravine US 176 squiggles up the other side of). So arguably they did a pretty good job of minimizing construction costs as it was. Operating costs, now, that's another matter ....

[Modelcar]

....I'm assuming they kept the train in one piece to decend the grade....
Pulling up the hill at 20 mph is impressive....Didn't think it would be that fast.
On the cog system....In my way of thinking, that would have been over kill in cost and maintenance, and special equipment needed plus adhesion evidently wasn't the problem....The problem now....for railfans...is no trains...! Too bad.

[Anonymous]

Wow, I can't believe I missed this forum from the start. School's got me bogged down...

Back to Saluda, there are several things to consider. The grade is only 3 miles long (which is 3 miles too many at that kind of grade) with the steepest at the top. It's hardly worthwhile to install a cog system for only 3 miles of track and would be overly complicated. When the trains went up, they were divided into 16 car sections at Melrose and hauled up to Saluda at 20 mph, not too bad of a speed, but takes a long time to do that for a 50 - 100 car long train. Coming down was a different story... but dynamic brakes and an 8 mph speed limit have kept Saluda run-away free for years.

[Modelcar]

PS....To continue a bit of above post of mine....I'm thinking possibly the engines were equipped with computer anti slip electronics and ability to cut power as needed to traction motor, etc...but the case I cited was about 10 years ago...Don't know what was available to handle that situation then.

[Modelcar]

WT....You mention of adhesion being the limiting factor how much a locomotive can pull up a grade....I've been to Horseshoe Curve and watching a long TOFC just about stall as he was exiting the western side of the Cuve and he wasn't slipping...just about stalling the 2 or 3 engines that were on the front. Fortunately he was able to continue to craw on up and made it....I heard him talking on the radio and he actually was talking about the thought they were almost in a stall and wasn't sure if he could make it...But there was no slippage at the time....Just the weight pulling down the engines to almost nothing, etc....

[Anonymous]

Back to the Shay locomotives. Being from West Virginia I have visited and rode behind the Shays at the Cass Scenic Railroad. Also rode on the Yosemite Sugar Pine Railroad behind their Shay. They do have a whole lot of noise with very little forward motion. There are about 17.35 million points to lubricate on a Shay. I have one of the Bachman Shays in G gauge. I think it has about the same number of places to lubricate each Christmas (when it comes out of storage) as the real ones do.

[Anonymous]

Yes adhesion is what determines how many cars can be pulled by a locomotive. A high addhesion locomotive can pull more cars. Doubleheading or trippleheading gets more over the hill in one cut. The problem at Saluda really came from runaways. The cars can start pushing the locomotive down the hill and unless the brakes are whistled for in time the engine cannot stop the train. At Saluda there have been cases of a train trying to go up the hill and having a reverse runaway. The engine is drug back down the hill. Again if brakes are not called for soon enough it is goodby!

[Modelcar]

....Yes, that's all interesting stuff. There was so much going on in shafts, bearings, universal joints [of some kind], and then the gear boxes at each axle...Wow...how was it all maintained to continue to operate reliable....It looks to me like the gear boxes were out in the open susceptible to the elements, dirt, etc...Must have required a bunch of greasing.
One Item: On auto engine rotating many times to drive axle....Some not as much as one might think....Especially with overdrive transmissions now....and middle of the spectrum rear end ratios....My truck in top gear the final drive ratio is 2:39 to 1 so that turns the engine pretty slow going down the road. Of course just a bit over 2 revs. per axle rotation.

[Modelcar]

...Does anyone know if the Shay like [not sure of the brand], engine that was at the Whitewater Valley Railroad, Connersville, In....years ago, is still there. Did they ever operate it on that 18 miles or so of tourist track down to Metamora...?

[Modelcar]

...Mark, I totally agree with all stated in your last post. Ratios and mechanical advantage and adhesion, the whole bit....I have looked over Shays and read about their operation, etc...but never heard one run. That must have been quite a sound...with the 3-cylinders doing their thing in concert.
I would like to have been standing at trackside in Saluda if one ever would have powered up the "hill" even all by itself....That sound must have sounded like a large sewing machine as it wound up to it's "6 mph" at "full speed".....! Wonder what was the primary reason they settled on 3-cylinders.

[Anonymous]

re- Madison Hill...

Last time I was there - tracks were still in place, but was not operated. I don't believe there are any active customers on the down-slope end, but the line is owned by the City of Madison, who is understandably reluctant to pull the tracks up. There is also a large power plant (coal burning, delivered by river barge - boo!) just downstream from the foot of the hill that occasionally has receieved oversize shipments of boilers, turbines, and such that raises a fuss anytime abandonment is brought up.

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Lima Loco



Its COMING DOWN 4% that gets tricky!!! with thousands of tons.. Sweat flows and lots of pucker. Cab heater gets foot prints on it.
[/quote

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