Thomas 9011 I have worked for the brotherhood of locomotive engineers, the Teamsters, the boilermakers, and many other unions. I don't understand their logic and believe they are out of touch with reality. They refuse to budge on their pay scale even if it results in the entire plant closing down and everyone losing their jobs. I understand people don't want to take a pay cut even if it is 50%. But the alternative is no job, and no money. Maybe Unions will start to realize that times have changed, and if they are stubborn and greedy they will end up on the unemployment line with everyone else.
I have worked for the brotherhood of locomotive engineers, the Teamsters, the boilermakers, and many other unions. I don't understand their logic and believe they are out of touch with reality. They refuse to budge on their pay scale even if it results in the entire plant closing down and everyone losing their jobs.
I understand people don't want to take a pay cut even if it is 50%. But the alternative is no job, and no money. Maybe Unions will start to realize that times have changed, and if they are stubborn and greedy they will end up on the unemployment line with everyone else.
I think there is a segment of our population that thinks that anyone who's job dosen't require a 4+ year college degree doesn't deserve a middle class level of compensation. It dosen't matter if the job is a basic assembly line worker or a more skilled trade, like welder, electrician, plumber, etc. I have seen that sentiment in comments made locally in the past when a couple of larger appliance plants in Iowa have been closed and the jobs moved.
Upper management and those who make most of their income from investments certainly have this attitude, but it seems to be growing in the general population too. It seems too many people who have been downsized in their own lives turn their anger towards those whose jobs still pay well, instead of the corporations that (fill in the blank) them and their communities over.
Jeff
.....Another article in Muncie paper today.
WWW.thestarpress.com if interested.
Quentin
jeffhergert I think there is a segment of our population that thinks that anyone who's job dosen't require a 4+ year college degree doesn't deserve a middle class level of compensation. It dosen't matter if the job is a basic assembly line worker or a more skilled trade, like welder, electrician, plumber, etc. I have seen that sentiment in comments made locally in the past when a couple of larger appliance plants in Iowa have been closed and the jobs moved.
I agree totally -- and today we see more and more people going to college, often picking up degrees of questionable value, just because they have bought this line. When the truth is that, when everybody has a college degree, some will still be flipping burgers and driving taxi, just like in the Philippines. Because society doesn't need their questionable "skills" -- whereas it could badly use an electrician or plumber.
I blame our giveaway trade and tax policies, not Caterpillar or the union, for the loss of well-paying jobs such as London's. (Yes, that was in Canada, but the same principle will be at work in Muncie.) If, through reform of both, we should be "protectionist" -- what of it? We are still wealthy enough, and a sufficient market unto ourselves, to afford a lot of "protection."
Just was browsing the Trains 70 Years DVD and came across a piece about La Grange ending locomotive construction.
Always thought moving everything to London was a mistake. The obvious distance issues seperating the workforce and various departments, not to mention the expensive transportion of large and heavy components like prime movers from Illinois to Canada. The various border and exchange issues. The limited capacity of London that meant their lead times between order and delivery were significantly longer than Erie even in soft years for EMD. The constant outsourcing of locomotives during times when the order books had anything more than a trickle on them just in order to try to satisfy demand for EMD locomotives that was a fraction of what Erie was delivering (There were times in the past 20 years when EMD locomotives were being outshopped for half a dozen different sites due to capacity issues at London). The distinterest from Canadian railways in EMD products that started to happen almost concurrently with the consolidation of locomotive construction to London. And so on...
Makes you wonder if they shouldn't of consolidated and upgraded things at La Grange which had far more capacity and killed off London 25 years ago. Would've sacrificed a slightly more modern plant in London, but I bet it would've been to their benefit in the end. Especially in light of the events over the past year or two.
MerrilyWeRollAlong Thomas 9011: I have worked for the brotherhood of locomotive engineers, the Teamsters, the boilermakers, and many other unions. I don't understand their logic and believe they are out of touch with reality. They refuse to budge on their pay scale even if it results in the entire plant closing down and everyone losing their jobs. I understand people don't want to take a pay cut even if it is 50%. But the alternative is no job, and no money. Maybe Unions will start to realize that times have changed, and if they are stubborn and greedy they will end up on the unemployment line with everyone else. Thomas 9011, I don't know and I don't care what you do, but ask yourself, if your boss came to you and said take a "10% pay cut or lose your job", how would you feel? You'd probably feel really shizzy with a "z" and angry. So you say 10% isn't so bad. I don't know how much you make but let's say it's $50,000. A 10% cut is $5,000 less, so now you make $45,000. Maybe you could live on that. Now let's pretend you work for Catapiller and you make $50,000 and are asked to take a 50% pay cut. You're being asked to work for only $25,000 per year. What if you had a mortgage and kids? Can you honestly really live on that and be happy that you still have a job with a 50% pay cut?! It's an insult. And by the way, yes unions have sometimes been unreasonable for asking for too much or not taking a cut which results in job losses. But seriously, put yourself in a position where your boss says take a pay cut or take a hike. It's not fun, it's insulting and it emasculates people, especially if the company is doing just fine. Based on Caterpillar's financial statements, it looks like they're doing just fine. They're not in bankruptcy or close to it. I've highlighted some of their key financial indicators below (all $ in billions): Sales: 2008 - $51.324; 2009 - $32.396; 2010 - $42.588; 2011 - $60.138 <=records sales! Profit (Sales minus all expenditures/taxes): 2008 - $3.557; 2009 - $0.895; 2010 - $2.700; 2011 - estimated $3.500 Dividends Declared: 2008 - $0.981; 2009 - $1.038; 2010 - $1.103; 2011- estimated $1.153 Source: 2010 Caterpillar Finances; Caterpillar Dividend History; Caterpillar 2011 4Q Results So getting back to the original question, if you worked at EMD's London plant and management came and told you to take a 50% pay cut or they're closing the plant, how would you feel about that if you knew the company had record sales of $60,138,000,000 and the dividends paid out to shareholders has consistently increased every year since 2003? Seriously, union or not, would you be open to taking a paying cut if you knew sales and profits are up from the previous year and before the recession? It's easy to tell someone else to work for less because you don't feel their pain. It's not painful to you because you're not the one who will either be 1) making 50% less for doing the same work, or 2) making nothing cause management closed the factory and moved elsewhere. And I'm not saying that pay cuts should never happen, all I'm saying is have a little have a little compassion. If Caterpillar was in a poor financial position, I would understand the need for pay cuts, but the company is doing fine, so what is the point of the drastic pay cuts?
Thomas 9011: I have worked for the brotherhood of locomotive engineers, the Teamsters, the boilermakers, and many other unions. I don't understand their logic and believe they are out of touch with reality. They refuse to budge on their pay scale even if it results in the entire plant closing down and everyone losing their jobs. I understand people don't want to take a pay cut even if it is 50%. But the alternative is no job, and no money. Maybe Unions will start to realize that times have changed, and if they are stubborn and greedy they will end up on the unemployment line with everyone else.
Thomas 9011,
I don't know and I don't care what you do, but ask yourself, if your boss came to you and said take a "10% pay cut or lose your job", how would you feel? You'd probably feel really shizzy with a "z" and angry. So you say 10% isn't so bad. I don't know how much you make but let's say it's $50,000. A 10% cut is $5,000 less, so now you make $45,000. Maybe you could live on that. Now let's pretend you work for Catapiller and you make $50,000 and are asked to take a 50% pay cut. You're being asked to work for only $25,000 per year. What if you had a mortgage and kids? Can you honestly really live on that and be happy that you still have a job with a 50% pay cut?! It's an insult. And by the way, yes unions have sometimes been unreasonable for asking for too much or not taking a cut which results in job losses. But seriously, put yourself in a position where your boss says take a pay cut or take a hike. It's not fun, it's insulting and it emasculates people, especially if the company is doing just fine.
Based on Caterpillar's financial statements, it looks like they're doing just fine. They're not in bankruptcy or close to it. I've highlighted some of their key financial indicators below (all $ in billions):
Sales: 2008 - $51.324; 2009 - $32.396; 2010 - $42.588; 2011 - $60.138 <=records sales!
Profit (Sales minus all expenditures/taxes): 2008 - $3.557; 2009 - $0.895; 2010 - $2.700; 2011 - estimated $3.500
Dividends Declared: 2008 - $0.981; 2009 - $1.038; 2010 - $1.103; 2011- estimated $1.153
Source: 2010 Caterpillar Finances; Caterpillar Dividend History; Caterpillar 2011 4Q Results
So getting back to the original question, if you worked at EMD's London plant and management came and told you to take a 50% pay cut or they're closing the plant, how would you feel about that if you knew the company had record sales of $60,138,000,000 and the dividends paid out to shareholders has consistently increased every year since 2003? Seriously, union or not, would you be open to taking a paying cut if you knew sales and profits are up from the previous year and before the recession?
It's easy to tell someone else to work for less because you don't feel their pain. It's not painful to you because you're not the one who will either be 1) making 50% less for doing the same work, or 2) making nothing cause management closed the factory and moved elsewhere. And I'm not saying that pay cuts should never happen, all I'm saying is have a little have a little compassion. If Caterpillar was in a poor financial position, I would understand the need for pay cuts, but the company is doing fine, so what is the point of the drastic pay cuts?
Plus, Indiana is a state where you're not required to be in a union to work in said field of work, so EMD is also being greedy since they can manipulate tings much easier there.
Mr. Railman I think you are looking at Caterpillar at a whole when looking at your sources. CAT doesn't just produce locomotives, and EMD just became a part of CAT in 2010. You have to focus on EMD and its finances for the past years, as well as CATs decisions to keep facilities close together. Who's to say that EMD has been oing down in the revenue charts?
Actually I did look for EMD's financial statements as well as those of Progressive Rail. Unfortunately, since both companies private and are wholly-owned subsidiaries of Caterpillar, neither is required by the Securities and Exchange Commission to release their annual returns. So this makes hard for an outsider to understand how EMD is performing financially outside of the "sanitized" press releases about plant closures/openings or locomotive orders, etc. The numbers I pulled from Caterpillar is from their consolidated financial sheets which is combined financial data of Caterpillar and all its subsidiaries. Without SEC filings, it's almost impossible to tell the financial state the EMD. One can only speculate.
The pay cuts were simply a preamble to shutting down the plant. CAT is not stupid, and they would have realized that a 50% pay cut would not go over. They did this for one reason only...because they could. They understand the political climate in the United States and that a move from Canada to the US now would make favorable headlines in the US, and that would play well where it counts for them. They also realized that a plant in Canada is nolonger that attractive to them for other reasons...our dollar is much stronger today than it was 5 years ago...and there are all kinds of complexities when dealing internationally that can be sidestepped by bringing the plant to the US. As a Canadian I don't view this as a totally bad development. It is a further stark reminder and wakeup call that we in Canada need to put some effort into creating our own industry instead of simply selling off everything we have to foreign interests or relying on large multinationals who don't have any interest in local ties. Hopefully the plant closure in London will make that abundantly clear to our business and political leaders.
Ulrich The pay cuts were simply a preamble to shutting down the plant. CAT is not stupid, and they would have realized that a 50% pay cut would not go over. They did this for one reason only...because they could. They understand the political climate in the United States and that a move from Canada to the US now would make favorable headlines in the US, and that would play well where it counts for them. They also realized that a plant in Canada is nolonger that attractive to them for other reasons...our dollar is much stronger today than it was 5 years ago...and there are all kinds of complexities when dealing internationally that can be sidestepped by bringing the plant to the US. As a Canadian I don't view this as a totally bad development. It is a further stark reminder and wakeup call that we in Canada need to put some effort into creating our own industry instead of simply selling off everything we have to foreign interests or relying on large multinationals who don't have any interest in local ties. Hopefully the plant closure in London will make that abundantly clear to our business and political leaders.
Ulrich, I totally agree with you and what was said. What Cat done to London, EMD done to La Grange both decisions were total motivation of profits. Companies such as Cat have share holders to answer to and as a result do not care about local ties and make decisions solely on profit margins.
I was fortunate enough to go for a tour of the London plant last year. Being an electrician that has worked in the Cambridge Toyota plant, Woodstock Toyota plant, Ingersoll GM plant and the ex St., Thomas Sterling/Freightliner plant it was easy to see that there were no large assembly lines. These locomotives are hand assembled with very skilled labour. It is a shame that Cat will pay their new work force department store wages to do this work that requires a lot of skill in some cases. A great way to destroy the middle class by underpaying what the work is truly worth.
Here is to hoping that the production of these locomotives will not move to Brazil South America from their plant in the US. It is highly unlikely that the production would shift to China because of the transportation costs of moving such huge pieces of cargo.
I also feel for the workers of the plant that are still striking outside of the plant. Apparently there is a SD80ACe that is still in the plant, and I guess a lot of equipment as well. I drove past the plant last Friday.
Personally, I think it would be great if Bombardier would start producing locomotives for the North American market in that plant. They have the TRAXX series of locomotives in Europe and the rest of the world that are proving to be quite competitive. It would be great to see a third player in the North American locomotive market.
Frank
"If you need a helping hand, you'll find one at the end of your arm."
Yes, would be great if Bombardier or someone else could step in where CAT left off in London. Somehow I doubt that will happen though. Locomotives are just too big and sophisticated now...any newcomer to the North American locomotive market niche would have to overcome some near impossible obstacles to win away any market share from CAT or GE. But never say never I guess. Baldwin, Lima, and Alco were also once dominant locomotive builders and look where they are now. Who knows...maybe there's an industrial genius in our midst who can turn things around for us.
da_kraut It is highly unlikely that the production would shift to China because of the transportation costs of moving such huge pieces of cargo.
It is highly unlikely that the production would shift to China because of the transportation costs of moving such huge pieces of cargo.
Also, do not forget what happened when NYS&W tried to import a locomotive made in China.
R.I.P. NYS&W #141
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