fire in the tunnel in the Cascades....

[Anonymous]

So how long does it usually take to burn out one of those fires, as I know someone that is supposed to come on that train soon? Thanks,
Brad

[Anonymous]

Thanks, It looks like it is still Burning, even behind the walls. I hope that doesn't put the route out for months, but i guess that would give the time to fix the rest of the Tunnels up there that they are planning on doing.

[Modelcar]

Can someone brief us on the above fire being mentioned in the Cascades Tunnel....
Are we talking about the 8 mile tunnel....
If so, is that tunnel lined with anything such as brick or stone or concrete....
A little more info please.

[corwinda]

No; the article said tunnel #7 - 3164 feet long.

There were severe thunderstorm warnings in the area that day; I wonder if lightning could have started the fire?

[Willy2]

If there were thunderstorms in the area, lightning could have started it, but I'm not an expert. I do think that if lightning can start a forest fire, it could set a tunnel on fire.

[Modelcar]

....Ok, I jumped over to "news wire" and read the story on it...Sounds like it will be down for some time. Can't understand what would start such a fire in such hidden cracks and corners.

[locomutt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by goduckies

So how long does it usually take to burn out one of those fires, as I know someone that is supposed to come on that train soon? Thanks,
Brad

Well, as M.Hemphill said ,BUS.
There is knowing how long this fire will burn.
One of the only ways that I know how to put it out;is to
seal both ends of the tunnel,and pour CO/2 into it.
I don't know if this can be daylighted or not.

No matter, GOOD LUCK!

[Modelcar]

....One would think a tunnel over 3000' long probably can't be daylighted.

[locomutt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

....One would think a tunnel over 3000' long probably can't be daylighted.

Okay,thank you;but I'm not at all familiar with area,that would be a major
problem,wouldn't it?

[Modelcar]

....And I am not familar with the area either...And yes, a major problem. From what they said in that "rail news"article...I'd think they might be looking at weeks and maybe months.

[locomutt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

....And I am not familar with the area either...And yes, a major problem. From what they said in that "rail news"article...I'd think they might be looking at weeks and maybe months.

How about a link to it, if possible?

[Modelcar]

Great info on the tunnel situation Mark....Thanks. I can relate to underground fires somewhat...[not personally], but being from the area of soft coal deep mines in Pennsylvania. A mine fire can rage for a long time...even a year or so...and even with trying to seal it up. It can still burn and does. Of course not as many deep mines are operational as in the past and hence, not as many mine fires now, etc....

[locomutt]

Thank you Mark. But nowhere in this thread can I find a link to anything about the fire.
The News Wire Link that you say,does not show up on my computer,And can not find
it.

[locomutt]

Okay Mark, I did find it;Thank you.

I guess I wasn't looking in the right place.[:I]

[Anonymous]

To top it all off, the most scenic area of the Coast Starlight's route is in the Williamette Pass area where this tunnel is located.... It won't be long before we hear that the ridership on the Coast Starlight dropped significantly last year and the route should be eliminated by the anti-Amtrak people......

Most of the tourists ride the Coast Starlight to see this area.....southern Oregon and northern California...... There is no sense in riding the train to Seattle from Los Angeles is it doesn't go the full distance......

[jeaton]

I just did an online search for any updates to this story and found none. Appearantly the Trains.com Newswire has scooped this story. Nice work.

I assume there will be updates later today, but if the situation is as bad as it could be the UP is screwed, and anything that Amtrak could cobble together for the Coast Starlight would make the Sunset Limited look like a star.

So anyway, I was wondering about the option of a building new tunnel on a somewhat different alignment using a tunnel boring machine. I have no idea if a new alighnment is even possible at that location, but on the plus side, TBM's can be relatively fast, they can handle both solid rock and unconsolidated material, and and the process of lining the tunnel right behind the machine eliminates the need to deal with weak or fallen roof using wood cribbage. MAJOR bucks? You bet!! But how long could UP run a dozen or so trains via Salt Lake City?

Jay

[zardoz]

For more info and a brief history of the tunnel, I invite you to check out this story on Railroadforums.com


http://www.railroadforums.com/forum/showthread.php?p=5167#post5167


I wonder if it really was the GE that started the fire. Maybe that is why they are called "toasters".

[Anonymous]

Thanks for all the replies, I was wondering, can't they send Amtrak through the Deschutes river Canyon, and then Through the Gorge? I know that I had heard that they were going to do work on the cascades for a while, and that is what they said they were going to do. Why can't they do that now, instead of annuling the train. It is beautiful up there, I lived in Eugene, so I have been up that mountain many times. Thanks again for the info.
Brad

[Modelcar]

Zardoz....A great additional amount of tunnel fire info....Good Job.

[Modelcar]

...Just reading the current info on that line and especially that tunnel...it seems UP has a real serious threat to that route....That must be a beast in winter too. With all the tunnels and reported grades one would wonder why an improvement hasn't been undertaken some years past....

[Anonymous]

thanks for the Reply. I didn't realize that the Oregon Trunk line didn't have Signals, Now I understand why they Aren't going to do that. I wonder why they were thinking about going over that route for the upcoming maintence on the route. AT least that is what I heard when I as on the train last about 6 months ago.
Brad

[Anonymous]

Last I saw, the Oregon Trunk (OT Jct./Wishram to Chemult) DOES have signals, at least as far south as Bend, mostly SP&S/OT style searchlights. Perhaps it's the ex-GN/WP track south of Klamath Falls you guys are thinking of.

[Modelcar]

....Sounds like UP is between a rock and a hard place regarding that route to get across the mountain range...I suppose it will depend on what kind of tunnel damage is found when they finally can get in to it and take a look as to what they will do. On the other hand as Mark pointed out their choices seem to be limited to repairing the tunnel damage and get it opened back up. If the tunnel has those vertical voids in the structure of the rock that must be a major problem to repair permanently.

[Anonymous]

ABS does increase capacity, and dispatching efficiency, when trains are fleeted in the same direction, at least on the routes I've been able to observe. In unsignalled TWC territory on a certain UP route in the Northwest, multiple trains running the same direction usually get track warrants in short chunks at a time because their blocks can't be overlapped. Dispatcher and crews spend a lot of time on the radio, and trains end up being spaced a half hour or more apart, often having to stop until the guy ahead gives up his warrant. Any closer would require so many warrants being issued and released in such rapid succession as to drive everybody involved crazy. On a number of TWC routes I've seen where ABS signals are present, warrants for trains traveling the same direction can be issued simultaneously for the same strech of track, so trains run as quickly and as close together as the changing signal aspects will allow.

[Anonymous]

My apologies for my loose use of the term "block" when referring to a defined stretch of track. The fact remains that what I've seen and heard on UP, BNSF, MRL, NS, CSX, CR, etc., etc., proves that you can cram more trains per mile into a railroad with ABS than without. Wasn't that where we got started? I appreciate your quoting of some rules, but they don't change any of what I've witnessed. As for the notion that ABS on the Oregon Trunk is mostly for slide protection, that statement is true for the 95 or so miles OT Jct. to Paxton, but from Paxton to Bend (just over 50 miles) it's open plateau country. Disingenuous for using an assumed name? You're describing the vast majority of posters here and elsewhere.

[Anonymous]

To my knowledge there are three north-south lines in the area, the one with the fire, the original SP line to Portland that has been sold to RailAmerica, and the Deschutes line. It was mentioned that the Deschutes line is near capacity, but what about the original SP line that RailAmerica owns? I am a little rusty on my geography, but there is the out of service (hopefully not abandoned) Modoc line. I think it may tie into the I-5 corridor south of the tunnel fire and not be an alternative. What is the current status of the Modoc line?

[MP57313]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wrwatkins

What is the current status of the Modoc line?

Several miles of the Modoc line has been dismantled through northern California. The rails were removed in the past year or so [info provided courtesy of Craig at www.asite2see.com]

[WDGF]

Would it be at all worthwhile for a RR to reactivate the Modoc, to serve as a backup for problems like this? Or, would it simply be more expense and trouble than it's worth?

[Anonymous]

Book smart or street smart. How many months were you at that KCS DS job? I'll try to keep all of this in mind next time I visit my favorite ABS mainline and a bunch of westbounds go roaring by me doing better than 50mph on roughly 20 minute headways, each crew clutching track warrants that were called out by the dispatcher in one move while the fleet was approaching the end of CTC. Can't run 'em like that in dark territory. Dems da facts, out where the flange meets the rail.

[Anonymous]

Back to the Modoc line. The Modoc was built by the Southern Pacific as a shortcut between central Nevada on the old Central Pacific line to Northwest. This line saved SP from going over Donner pass and down the American River canyon to the Sacramento area where they turned north for Oregon. The line undulated over several hills and dells and was an operational nightmare. When the UP bought the SP they had their Salt Lake to the Columbia River line for traffic to the northwest which made the Modoc redundant. As much as I hate to see a rail line abandoned my professional engineering experience says that it had to go. The same objectives can be obtained cheaper on the UP line and a secondary line did not have to be maintained. A good history of the Modoc is contained in a recently published book called MODOC.