fire in the tunnel in the Cascades....

[Anonymous]

While he catches his breath, let me point out that nobody has suggested that ABS "grants or modifies authority." Let me also point out that, after previously saying ABS has virtually no impact on capacity, he now is willing to say it does increase capacity "if it enables higher train speeds." That was precisely my point from the get-go. I'm not nit-picking him. I just want to clear up any confusion you all may have had about my earlier posts.

[zardoz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Clemente

Book smart or street smart. How many months were you at that KCS DS job? I'll try to keep all of this in mind next time I visit my favorite ABS mainline and a bunch of westbounds go roaring by me doing better than 50mph on roughly 20 minute headways, each crew clutching track warrants that were called out by the dispatcher in one move while the fleet was approaching the end of CTC. Can't run 'em like that in dark territory. Dems da facts, out where the flange meets the rail.

I can imagine that if all trains are moving in the same direction, and the dispatcher is too busy to grant/release TWC or DTC blocks individually, then ABS would be beneficial. Otherwise, I do not see how in 'dark territory' more than one train can be given authority for a section of track, unless the second train is granted "after" permission, such as:
"UP 4321 South is authorized in the Alpha block AFTER the UP1234 South has passed your location. UP4321 shall operate at restricted speed to the next block". That second train better not be doing 50 mph under that authority.

Regarding "cramming more trains per mile with ABS", I think that would be a generalization, for I know of a few locations where switch engines and way freights operate on the main, and the dispatcher can do more 'creative' railroading in dark territory, without worrying about "direction of traffic" on a particular track, or about "running against the current of traffic" which causes any conflicting movement to be stopped at a controlled point awaiting the conflicting traffic, instead of just going to the next DTC/TWC block limit.

[Anonymous]

By any chance are you related to Jim Hemphill who worked in the UP Bridge Department office in Omaha around 1971?

Thanks.

[Anonymous]

I am glad to see the tunnel re-opened. My first job out of engineering school was with the UP Bridge Department, 33 years ago. Out of that job, I had bought UP stock which I still own. If the tunnel needed to be rebuilt, there would be a good chance I would be selling my precious stock from which I get a beautiful annual report and calendar.

Thank heavens that did not happen.

[Junctionfan]

I was concerned about the track mostly. I though the tie might catch on fire and the rail slightly warped from the heat.

[jeaton]

I suppose we may have been the source of the rumors of collapse, especially if the post weren't read with care. There was a lot of discussion about what would be done in a worst case scenario, but I think that came from posters knowing that a long period closing would have some pretty serious consequences for the UP, Amtrak and freight shippers that use that route. It is good to hear that operation is back up.

Bergie and crew certainly did a good job of reporting this on the newswire.

Jay

[Modelcar]

....Just checked "news wire" and sure enough, it has the full story of reopening the number 7 tunnel...in fact trains have already moved through it...!

[Modelcar]

dblstack....That is astounding....! After all the speculation with many on here I believe the consensus is there would be damage...How can it return to service without repair of some magnitude....This will be interesting.

[Anonymous]

UP reports fire out and tunnel returning to service tomorrow.

[Junctionfan]

What kind of damage is UP figuring they will have to face? Do they believe it was caused by a locomotive?

[highballer1]

My Great Uncle helped to "bore" those tunnels on the Cascade Line and even suffered a concussion to his head when a fellow worker dropped a 16 pound sledge hammer from above on a scaffold in one of those tunnels. He talked about "voids" caused by rock splitting off or cracking ahead of blasting and drills and thus, in that time period and given the availability of timber, those voids were filled with cut and split cord wood and then rough lumber with bents placed to the inner facing of the tunnels. Eventually, the SP tried guniting the linings and it's my understanding that UP was going to. But for now, let's hope they learned their lesson well, cut down on the number of GE "belchers," and continue guniting and covering the lining of those tunnels. This line is the most exceptional engineering feat for a mountain pass crossing. It was one of the fastest done for that time and given the materials and machinery they had to work with, and is most "modern" by anyone's standards. My uncle also stated that when they brought the two ends together, they were only inches off!

For that many twists, turns and the terrain they had to conquer, it was an engineering feat many would be very proud of. It is for you folks not in the Northwest, one of the most pictuesque and beautiful areas I've seen and I've lived in Oregon all my life. About 16 years ago I often took day road trips down there and came into areas from Forest Service roads and picnicked as well as photographed the tracks, trains and the surroundings. I also collected some of the small gravel and dirt from the cuts for my model railroad.

[Anonymous]

Back to the Modoc line. The Modoc was built by the Southern Pacific as a shortcut between central Nevada on the old Central Pacific line to Northwest. This line saved SP from going over Donner pass and down the American River canyon to the Sacramento area where they turned north for Oregon. The line undulated over several hills and dells and was an operational nightmare. When the UP bought the SP they had their Salt Lake to the Columbia River line for traffic to the northwest which made the Modoc redundant. As much as I hate to see a rail line abandoned my professional engineering experience says that it had to go. The same objectives can be obtained cheaper on the UP line and a secondary line did not have to be maintained. A good history of the Modoc is contained in a recently published book called MODOC.

[Anonymous]

Book smart or street smart. How many months were you at that KCS DS job? I'll try to keep all of this in mind next time I visit my favorite ABS mainline and a bunch of westbounds go roaring by me doing better than 50mph on roughly 20 minute headways, each crew clutching track warrants that were called out by the dispatcher in one move while the fleet was approaching the end of CTC. Can't run 'em like that in dark territory. Dems da facts, out where the flange meets the rail.

[WDGF]

Would it be at all worthwhile for a RR to reactivate the Modoc, to serve as a backup for problems like this? Or, would it simply be more expense and trouble than it's worth?

[MP57313]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wrwatkins

What is the current status of the Modoc line?

Several miles of the Modoc line has been dismantled through northern California. The rails were removed in the past year or so [info provided courtesy of Craig at www.asite2see.com]

[Anonymous]

To my knowledge there are three north-south lines in the area, the one with the fire, the original SP line to Portland that has been sold to RailAmerica, and the Deschutes line. It was mentioned that the Deschutes line is near capacity, but what about the original SP line that RailAmerica owns? I am a little rusty on my geography, but there is the out of service (hopefully not abandoned) Modoc line. I think it may tie into the I-5 corridor south of the tunnel fire and not be an alternative. What is the current status of the Modoc line?

[Anonymous]

My apologies for my loose use of the term "block" when referring to a defined stretch of track. The fact remains that what I've seen and heard on UP, BNSF, MRL, NS, CSX, CR, etc., etc., proves that you can cram more trains per mile into a railroad with ABS than without. Wasn't that where we got started? I appreciate your quoting of some rules, but they don't change any of what I've witnessed. As for the notion that ABS on the Oregon Trunk is mostly for slide protection, that statement is true for the 95 or so miles OT Jct. to Paxton, but from Paxton to Bend (just over 50 miles) it's open plateau country. Disingenuous for using an assumed name? You're describing the vast majority of posters here and elsewhere.

[Anonymous]

ABS does increase capacity, and dispatching efficiency, when trains are fleeted in the same direction, at least on the routes I've been able to observe. In unsignalled TWC territory on a certain UP route in the Northwest, multiple trains running the same direction usually get track warrants in short chunks at a time because their blocks can't be overlapped. Dispatcher and crews spend a lot of time on the radio, and trains end up being spaced a half hour or more apart, often having to stop until the guy ahead gives up his warrant. Any closer would require so many warrants being issued and released in such rapid succession as to drive everybody involved crazy. On a number of TWC routes I've seen where ABS signals are present, warrants for trains traveling the same direction can be issued simultaneously for the same strech of track, so trains run as quickly and as close together as the changing signal aspects will allow.

[Modelcar]

....Sounds like UP is between a rock and a hard place regarding that route to get across the mountain range...I suppose it will depend on what kind of tunnel damage is found when they finally can get in to it and take a look as to what they will do. On the other hand as Mark pointed out their choices seem to be limited to repairing the tunnel damage and get it opened back up. If the tunnel has those vertical voids in the structure of the rock that must be a major problem to repair permanently.

[Anonymous]

Last I saw, the Oregon Trunk (OT Jct./Wishram to Chemult) DOES have signals, at least as far south as Bend, mostly SP&S/OT style searchlights. Perhaps it's the ex-GN/WP track south of Klamath Falls you guys are thinking of.

[Anonymous]

thanks for the Reply. I didn't realize that the Oregon Trunk line didn't have Signals, Now I understand why they Aren't going to do that. I wonder why they were thinking about going over that route for the upcoming maintence on the route. AT least that is what I heard when I as on the train last about 6 months ago.
Brad

[Modelcar]

...Just reading the current info on that line and especially that tunnel...it seems UP has a real serious threat to that route....That must be a beast in winter too. With all the tunnels and reported grades one would wonder why an improvement hasn't been undertaken some years past....

[Modelcar]

Zardoz....A great additional amount of tunnel fire info....Good Job.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for all the replies, I was wondering, can't they send Amtrak through the Deschutes river Canyon, and then Through the Gorge? I know that I had heard that they were going to do work on the cascades for a while, and that is what they said they were going to do. Why can't they do that now, instead of annuling the train. It is beautiful up there, I lived in Eugene, so I have been up that mountain many times. Thanks again for the info.
Brad

[zardoz]

For more info and a brief history of the tunnel, I invite you to check out this story on Railroadforums.com


http://www.railroadforums.com/forum/showthread.php?p=5167#post5167


I wonder if it really was the GE that started the fire. Maybe that is why they are called "toasters".

[jeaton]

I just did an online search for any updates to this story and found none. Appearantly the Trains.com Newswire has scooped this story. Nice work.

I assume there will be updates later today, but if the situation is as bad as it could be the UP is screwed, and anything that Amtrak could cobble together for the Coast Starlight would make the Sunset Limited look like a star.

So anyway, I was wondering about the option of a building new tunnel on a somewhat different alignment using a tunnel boring machine. I have no idea if a new alighnment is even possible at that location, but on the plus side, TBM's can be relatively fast, they can handle both solid rock and unconsolidated material, and and the process of lining the tunnel right behind the machine eliminates the need to deal with weak or fallen roof using wood cribbage. MAJOR bucks? You bet!! But how long could UP run a dozen or so trains via Salt Lake City?

Jay

[Anonymous]

To top it all off, the most scenic area of the Coast Starlight's route is in the Williamette Pass area where this tunnel is located.... It won't be long before we hear that the ridership on the Coast Starlight dropped significantly last year and the route should be eliminated by the anti-Amtrak people......

Most of the tourists ride the Coast Starlight to see this area.....southern Oregon and northern California...... There is no sense in riding the train to Seattle from Los Angeles is it doesn't go the full distance......

[locomutt]

Okay Mark, I did find it;Thank you.

I guess I wasn't looking in the right place.[:I]

[locomutt]

Thank you Mark. But nowhere in this thread can I find a link to anything about the fire.
The News Wire Link that you say,does not show up on my computer,And can not find
it.