Railfans get no Respect!

[Anonymous]

Someone tell me why railfans still get treated like we are doing something wrong. I know since 9/11 that a lot has changed as far as security and other issues, but I still think that we are a railroads best friend. I've been run off by railroad employees as well as local police for wanting to take photos. [:0]
I'm sure others have experienced problems also. I just move on even though I wasn't on their property. There are some places that I never have issues with, but not many. Please share any stories you might have.[:)]

[adrianspeeder]

Sounds like we got another foamer.

I use the line "Hey, i like your diesel. Wanna trade?"

Usually gets a laugh and a peek in the cab.

Adrianspeeder

[ericsp]

It seems like there has been several threads on this forum regarding this. Some people tell stories like yours. Others say they never have a problem. I guess it just depends on the RR management, RR workers, local police, or how the local citizens react to seeing someone looking at trains (some person driving by might report you) at a particular location.

[UPTRAIN]

Like I've said before, I report people if they do something wrong, like steal or trespass, for taking photos, no way!!!

[ericsp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by UPTRAIN

Like I've said before, I report people if they do something wrong, like steal or trespass, for taking photos, no way!!!

I am not saying all railroaders would do this, but I am sure some would. All of my encounters with railroaders have been pleasant and I have never been told to leave by anyone.

[Randy Stahl]

Take a look around at this world friend, almost nobody has respect for their fellow humans. It's a rough place!!!
Randy

[tree68]

The recent release of several photos taken by terrorists of American landmarks isn't going to make life any easier for the rail photographer. In the words of Buffalo Springfield: "Paranoia strikes deep..."

Along the lines of a paraphrase I posted in another thread ("Stay there and let them wonder if you're guilty, or run and erase all doubt."), one might do well to be VERY conspicuous when railfanning. Of course, if somebody has decided you're guilty, it won't make any difference what you're doing, but if you railfan openly, then at least it should be apparent to rational people that you have nothing to hide.

As has also been discussed, if challenged, stay calm and explain your actions. Show your log, some pictures you've taken, or whatever. If the local cop understands what you're doing, you're less likely to get hassled again. Challenge them back, and you may end up explaining the hobby to a judge...

QUOTE: Originally posted by ericsp:
how the local citizens react to seeing someone looking at trains (some person driving by might report you) at a particular location.

Geez, I hate cell phones sometimes - John B. Goodcitizen sees something 'suspicious' and cops and firefighters are out chasing down the paperboy or a backyard barbeque.

If all else fails, move on as already suggested, or call it a day.

[Willy2]

I've never been told to leave, or to not take photos, but I'm sure that it does happen sometimes.

[Anonymous]

No comment!

[RudyRockvilleMD]

Railfans get no respect because of the nitwit behavior of a few, although security concerns have a lot to do with it too.

I have either been lucky or doing something right;, but that depends but so far nobody has challenged me when I have been out photographing trains. Yesterday (August 8) I went down to Orange, Va on the ex Southern.s Washington - Atlanta line, and, I waited right behind the police statiion to photgragraph the Cardinal passing through At no time was I hassled,. or
told to leave, but then again I was on public property

I understand NJ transit has been giving railroad photographers a hard time eventhough they were on public property, so much so that a group of railfans in New Jersey is trying to get the ACLU to take up the check.

[MP57313]

I take pictures of both "active" and abandoned railroads, and have run into minor issues. In June I was in the mall parking lot at what used to be RF&P's Potomac Yard, in Virginia. I took a couple pictures of the CSX line and Metro Rail route, but most pictures were of the approach bridges at what used to be the north end of the yard. Some guy on a bike started circling around where I was, and got on his cell phone. When I tried to go over to talk to him he bailed.

Just last weekend I was in San Bernardino, following the remnants of the Pacific Electric lines (there still are a few traces). I parked next to an abandoned mall, but in the few minutes I was away a security guard came by and told me to leave (the parking lot did not have any signs saying I couldn't park there). I explained what I was doing and then left...

I do "railfan in plain sight" and have a car with a personalized RR plate [tip-off - foamer?]
but cooperate with guards etc.

If there are guard stations near where I want to take pictures I go ask the guards on duty first. Usually they are ok about it, but one guy said it was ok so long as I "made it quick"

[Anonymous]

I live in Toronto and quite often I nip into the Macmillan Yard to take some shots. I stay in one spot and no one seems to take issue with this, which I appreciate. They just drive right past me with sometimes a honk of the horn to disrupt my video-taping (and a laugh within the cab of the truck)
The only time I got run off was when I got close to the Diesel Shop. It was quick and painless.

[Junctionfan]

I plan on working as a customs officer so depending where I am assigned I may see trains constantly. Plus I would imagine that if the railroads know I am a customs officer, they may not be so suspicious of me. But for so far, I have had no problems; mind you I haven't tried to railfan KCS.

[JoeKoh]

Tracy
First welcome to the forums. take pics leave footprints.If asked whats going on just mind your manners.sometimes its about attitude.
stay safe
Joe

[Mookie]

Even the Mookie and the driver were approached by the police - finally! Been waiting a long time for this.

Sunday morning about 7 am - sitting in Millie reading the Sunday funnies. Two nice young police officers pulled up to see if we were ok. (actually, they probably thought we were nuts, but we were enjoying the sunrise and the funnies and the trains!) They were very gracious when the driver said he was helping his wife pursue her hobby of trainwatching. The one closest to us said he enjoyed watching trains also! Maybe, maybe not. But it was nice of them to see if we needed help and they left us to our train watching.

Police go by all the time, but usually don't even glance our way. 'Course, it is usually a little later in the day!

Mook

[Anonymous]

That's when all the morons come out mookie!
Be safe!
I have licence plates that say "BNSF" even though I live in Blair,Ne.............What a Joke! I wanted them to say BNSF railfan. But you can ONLY have 7 letters on your plate.[banghead]
P.S. HAVE A NICE DAY!

[locomutt]

I've been semi-hassled,and run off from various places over the years,but I think the most memorable,was here in Louisville several years ago. CW & I were sitting in the car on a public street and a Southern RY (before NS) officer came over to the car and wanted to know what we were doing. So we did the best thing we could do then;leave.[:)]

[halifaxcn]

Interesting thread. This topic seems to be the mainstay of many discussion groups.

I have never been approached or asked what/why I was photographing trains. I have been trackside along the NEC here in Attleboro, MA. Also in Fostoria, Ohio and many hotspots in Chicago area.

I am always polite when dealing with railroad staff or the local police if needed be. In fact many times when railfanning Palmer MA over the years the local PD has asked if I had seen a suspect they were looking for.

I also have an ace up my sleeve when dealing with the local constabulary, I work in law enforcement so they usually start talking shop and leave me along.

My advise to all is simple, be polite answer the questions, they can ask you for your name and ID. Just keep the attitude in check and you should be ok, unless of a trespass or other dangerous act.

Regards
Frank San Severino
CP 198 Amtrak NEC
Attleboro, MA

[JoeKoh]

QUOTE: Originally posted by halifaxcn

Interesting thread. This topic seems to be the mainstay of many discussion groups.

I have never been approached or asked what/why I was photographing trains. I have been trackside along the NEC here in Attleboro, MA. Also in Fostoria, Ohio and many hotspots in Chicago area.

I am always polite when dealing with railroad staff or the local police if needed be. In fact many times when railfanning Palmer MA over the years the local PD has asked if I had seen a suspect they were looking for.

I also have an ace up my sleeve when dealing with the local constabulary, I work in law enforcement so they usually start talking shop and leave me along.

My advise to all is simple, be polite answer the questions, they can ask you for your name and ID. Just keep the attitude in check and you should be ok, unless of a trespass or other dangerous act.

Regards
Frank San Severino
CP 198 Amtrak NEC
Attleboro, MA

hey next time through fostoria or deshler email me[:)]
stay safe
joe

[Overmod]

I regularly parked on the gravel at the junction between the Birmingham Line and the Chattanooga line in Austell, Georgia. Not only did the local cops take no notice (as they frequently rolled past on the roads), the NS police only stopped to chat. (I suppose it helped that I was wearing a Waffle House shirt and was known to many of the boys...)

One thing about NJT: We had either NJT or Amtrak police start to run us off the platform at Newark Station in the early 1970s, with the 'you need a permit, private property' argument. Turns out the problem was that private detectives were photographing people on the sly, and when the rail folks allow this they can be sued for invasion of privacy (as it's not a full 'public place'). Once the cops realized we were high-school railfans, they let us stay... but did keep a more careful eye on what we were doing...

My guess is that there's some sort of enforcement blitz, perhaps involving CYA for the next time something goes BOOM unexpectedly, along similar lines. It probably doesn't help that northern New Jersey gets its share of pilfering, trespassing railfans (probably eager to sue if they slip while on the ROW?)

I grew up being from northern New Jersey and so cannot be blamed for any perceived regional bias.

[fuzzybroken]

I've had three run-ins with police, security, or just regular folk while railfanning, and a fourth while taking a picture of an Amoco station.
1. Near CP's yard in Milwaukee is a complex of buildings that were once tanneries and breweries, but are now being converted to offices, condos, and apartments. The CP yard lead goes right between several of the buildings, and it sounds really cool when the horns blow for the lone (unsignalled) grade crossing. I had dashed into the parking lot several times to get pictures of railroad equipment, but on one particular day, I was peaceably confronted by a security guard who told me that I can't take pictures in the parking lot.

2. After waiting for a UP train in Oak Creek for over an hour while it was parked on a siding, I headed back north, and found the perfect spot to take pictures of some of the freight cars -- the northeast corner of General Mitchell International Airport! There was a parking lot, no "No Trespassing" signs, so what the heck? Well, after taking my pictures, a couple of Milwaukee County Sheriffs pull up, take my picture and get my information, and send me on my way. But it gets better...

A couple weeks later, I am greeted at the door by a Federal Air Marshal and a FBI agent. I showed them my pictures, gave them a little more info, and politely informed them that I was not a terrorist (they asked).

3. One day I stopped down at UP's Mitchell Yard and took a few pictures of freight cars and the locomotive that was hanging around the yard. While walking back, a guy walked off his porch and asked what I was doing. I told him, and he said, "You can't be too careful these days."

4. I am also working to capture the remaining Amoco stations "on film", mostly as I find them. I even have an Amoco page on my website. I took a leisurely drive north to Saukville one day, finding a couple Amoco stations on the way to Saukville, where I had spotted an Amoco on my way home form Manitowoc one weekend. I took several pictures of the Saukville Amoco, trying to get just the right angle, when a store employee came out and asked why I was taking pictures of the gas station. I explained my web site and gave the address, and she looked at me kind of funny.

So all in all, not too bad for a guy who kinda sticks out... 6'5" 222 lbs. But I bet not too many of you have had a FBI agent stop by!!! [sigh][:-^]

-Mark
http://www.geocities.com/fuzzybroken

[RudyRockvilleMD]

Let me add a little more fuel to the fire (er discussion). Another reason railfans may get no respect can be traced to what has recently been printed in two railfan publications. In one publication the writer called a railroad "the black plague from....", and in another publication the New Jersey Transit's police were referred to as "the gestapo."

This is for Overmod. When you were run out of the Newark Station in the early 1970's it was probably still under Penn Central ownership so it really was private property. But your reason for forbidding photography in that railroad station is interesting and possible, i.e. privacy. New Jersey Transit started to require permits to photograph trains from its station platforms in 2000 so privacy could well have been the reason. However, New Jersey Transit didn't start to actively enforce its requirement for permits for photographing trains from its station platforms until a few months ago.

[Mookie]

You know if you think about it - what kind of a picture do you present to people? You are a lone male sitting in mostly an SUV, pick-em-up type truck, got binoculars, a camera and probably most of your train watching gear, camera items in bags, suitcases or boxes. A mickey d's bag by your side and an oversized drink on the dash.

What would you think if you were a police/bull officer?

Now if you will follow my suggestions: Try to shave before going - so you look like a business man instead of a person looking to grab a ride on the local freight. Keep a smile on your face and don't look like Arnold looking for someone to rumble with. And take your girlfriend, wife, the neighbor lady, anyone female that will sit for a few hours and not keep distracting you and a kid or two if you can.

It is the picture that you present that makes the difference. Oh and drive a Buick if you can borrow one. Old people drive Buicks and no one hassles old people. They just want to always help you across the street.

If all else fails - smile a lot, wave at everyone and laugh....everyone will avoid you like the plague!

Moo

[Overmod]

You want 'gestapo' -- I'll tell you about what it REALLY is (not surprisingly, it was in California)

This was in the San Jose area, shortly after they introduced their light-rail system. I came into town for a software-development conference, and decided to combine civic conscience and love of railroading by riding the light rail into town. Not coincidentally, my hotel was just a short walk from one of the stations.

The 'ticketing' arrangement was the usual indifferently-designed machines... you put your coins in, get your little printed tag out. Some mention was made to keep your tag or whatever they called it in case anyone wanted to see it. I'd seen this kind of note before... on New Jersey Transit, come to think of it... so didn't think that much of it. As on many of the European systems, fare-paying was on the 'honor system'; there weren't any gates, turnstiles, etc. to get on the train.

I rode this train a couple of days, and was starting to like it... a little overbuilt for the quality of service, but that's California Democrats for you. Then, the third day, something different.

About two stops down, the train gets held in the station. On gets Officer Blackshirt, in his finest terror-inspiring black uniform and SS-recruitment-poster expression, radio crackling, gun prominently displayed. He arrogantly struts down the length of the car, a sneer of disdain for the hoi clear on his face. I look around me to see what this might be, and note that everyone, with more or less an expression of fear showing, is holding out their little ticket stub, like garlic to a vampire. Pass laws in '70s South Africa, anyone?

The guy walks down to the vestibule, where somebody has brought his bicycle on board. There was something wrong with this guy's stub. He gets HANDCUFFED, HAULED OFF THE TRAIN AND STUCK IN A SQUAD CAR -- now I see that there are three of these guys conducting the run-through. The minimum statutory fine for this offense is $273... (!!!) Fun to watch everyone shrink in their seats, thinking 'not my turn today',

This cured me of any delight, and really of any interest, in riding this system. If that's the way an 'honor system' is going to be enforced, I think I'll just keep driving. I'm not going to run the risk that I can't find my little stub in my pocket when the polizei demand it... not with THAT kind of consequence! Even New Jersey Transit doesn't treat its patrons that way...

[tree68]

When I rode the light rail in Baltimore (BWI to Camden Yards) a transit cop got on during my return trip. He was big and burly, but not threatening - although he did want to see everyone's ticket. We were still rolling when he walked through, though.

[Mookie]

Are you sure they didn't radio in his ID and he had outstanding warrants? They possibly were notified that he was on the train and purposely came on board for him?
What if they were arresting him for carrying something illegal. Handcuffs and squad cars come because this person was not a law-abiding citizen on a ride to or from wherever.

You have no clue what went on before they even entered the car. Sorry it ruined your day, but unless they physically beat him in front of you and did a strip search right there, I don't think they were at all out of line. Truth be known, they were probably very professional about it all.

Mookie

[Overmod]

Oh, no, you don't pull that 'maybe he was guilty of something else' crap on me (in all respect for you otherwise).

If he was 'carrying something illegal' they didn't search him for it... on board the train, or before they made the stop. It was very clear from the radio chatter that his arrest was entirely related to documentation for the correct amount of his fare. Nothing to do with his "ID" or requests for personal information was done during the entire time... this was only about 10 feet from me, so I can state it without equivocation.

I don't need a clue about 'what went on before they even entered the car' to know that arrogance is not part of "professional" police demeanor... anytime, anywhere.

Handcuffs and squad cars were evidently part of SOP for transit fare operations... they were there before anyone got arrested, and the guy was only arrested after he failed to satisfy the demand to produce an appropriate receipt.

Least of all, perhaps, on 'public transportation' that takes longer to get there, isn't as comfortable or convenient, and stops running much of the time I would otherwise 'need' to be using it, than the equivalent. That only adds to the irritation.

You could, of course, make the claim that because he didn't have the proper receipt, he was guilty and could be hauled away, incarcerated, etc. for having broken the law. That's your right, Mookie, and this is America where you have a Constitutional right to say it. But the way in which the police conducted themselves is not characteristic of anything I would be proud to admit to be "American" in that sense. Period.

[Junctionfan]

I was on the bus in my city and the police actually stopped the bus to arrest a youth. I didn't know at the time that he was being arrested for armed robbery. This thankfully is not true; this has never happened to me before but I do know that it is true for others. If the police want to arrest bad guys on a train, go right ahead I say.

[Anonymous]

This is a very difficult topic in today's time. I myself have never had a problem with this, but understand some where the otherside is coming from. Being that I live in rural central MN is probably why I never have a problem, I always get waves from the train crews, track inspectors and track gangs. It is a shame that often the best set of eyes watching for trouble (the railfan) has their motives questioned.

How many times have you taken debris off the track or spotted something that could pose a problem for the next train? I know I'm always watching for things like this and help whenever I can, and I'm sure the rest of us are too!

[Overmod]

I couldn't agree more -- if you have suspects for violent crime, by all means come aboard and take them off to the pokey.

The problem in San Jose, in part, is PRECISELY in what the definition of 'bad guy' is. I find it incredibly hard to class farebeating -- of any kind -- in the same league as armed robbery, even in California.

I suppose I don't mind the idea that uniformed personnel will periodically patrol transit vehicles checking up to see that the fares have been paid. We used to see them... called 'conductors'. In our current world, it's more cost-effective to eliminate such people (so we can pay for things like kickbacks to the husbands of important California legislators, presumably) and to use the police power to enforce fare collections. Even that, I suppose, is OK (although one wonders whether the police don't have enough real criminal activity to go after with all the resources I saw used, or better put, might not have been quite so eager had there been any likelihood of forcible resistance on the part of transit-car riders, or the potential for lucrative income in fine$).

I've been a supporter of police since I can remember... and I indeed know how professional officers do their job. In Virginia, now many years ago, a friend of mine was pulled over for suspected drunk driving. Despite repeatedly insulting the officer and otherwise behaving badly, he was treated politely and not abused. The officer allowed me to drive his car back to a safe parking spot instead of impounding it. I spent an hour or so talking about favorite bass fishing spots with the Charlottesville magistrate and ensured that he was released on recognizance early the following morning. THAT is the way that the police and justice system ought to operate in America, regardless of how severely the operation of the courts and subsequent enforcement might be invoked.

One presumes that when the bus was stopped, the police didn't threaten anyone else on the bus, and explained what they were doing after the fact. In short, didn't enjoy domination over the plain folks because they were the police. Which is what was so striking about what I saw.