Railfans get no Respect!

[Anonymous]

I have had countless experiences with authorities of all types. 2 years ago, I was filming the CN/IC line northeast of Centralia, IL., in Edgewood. I was at a good site on the East edge of town. Unknown to me, a car had driven by my van and placed a partly-filled bottle of Methamphetamine substance behind my left rear tire. I guess they were hoping I would run over and destroy it. The state trooper came by, and I only learned from him that the bottle was there. I had to fill out a report as to what I had seen, although I had not seen anything except trains and a rail line. He asked me to go to the other side of town, stating that the investigators would likely want to confiscate my video tape. I complied.


Most recently, I went this June to film the DMIR in Northeast Minnesota. That was a hell of a trip. I went first directly to the yard office in Proctor for permission to get some yard action. It was around sundown. I was first told that "I have nothing coming through right now." I replied that my intentions were for tomorrow. I was then told that the Trainmaster would be in tomorrow. I said ok, but then reflected how I had really been just blown off, so I thought to myself, "Screw it", and continued on up the line for the next week and got great footage of the ore trains, some of which was ruined due to extremely high winds that developed later in the day every day, along with clouds and showers. I had no encounters with anyone else after that, except for an employee who stated that I had been reported, when I was later over West of Staples, MN. I told him what I was doing and he said there was no problem then.

Otherwise, I frequently have runins with cops and authorities of all kinds here in Illinois. Every time I see them coming, I think to myself, "Here we go again". But every time I tell them what I am doing, they leave me alone. Here are some tips from my experiences.......Always have your ID, stay on public property, and if you are not sure whose property it is, just make sure there are not any "NO TRESPASSING" signs near you. If you have to do some walking to get to your destination, try to cut through some woods along the side if you can, and/or walk a road and then cut into your setup location. Although I walk the tracks in some situations because there is not really an alternative, remember that you usually cannot hear railrod inspection vehicles until they are right up on you. Lastly, watch out for UP personnel especially. They seem to be paranoid around here anyway.

[MP57313]

QUOTE: Originally posted by slotracer
I continued to be exposed to large numbers of weirdo's......folks who had severe wardrobe issues, half shaved, or had hygiene issues and were downright offensive.

<<MP57313: Yikes! There's a guy like that at the local station...might be homeless. Just sits at the end of the platform all day>>

When my wife and kids accompanied me up to Tenessee pass I combined a bunch of activities, for them as well as me, visits to antiques shops, short hikes, a nice lunch of stops at historical sites were all mixed in so it was enjoyable to all and I had no desire to be a foamer and devote a day non-stop to picture taking

That's one way to do it...keep some balance. But an occasional foam-filled day or weekend is ok, especially if one is out of town on business and your co-workers are doing chores or yard work [mowing the grass not switching freight cars[:D]]

[Junctionfan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by erikthered

Madame La Mook,
Most of the trainwatchers I've come in contact with, especially here in the forums, don't have a problem with being questioned. Some are even happy to answer my questions and understand why I'm asking them.

Recently, I went through a mandatory training session from Homeland Security. They told us to be aware of some of the commonalities found with folks with evil and explosive intentions. Some of those commonalities were:
-Single men with out of state or rental plates ignorant of local traffic laws or acting "lost".
-A set of binoculars, a map, and a notebook in the front seat. They might have a camera and a GPS, too. It's even stranger if they have a scanner tuned to local police, fire... or railroad channels.

Does that sound like anyone doing something we know and love dearly?

Most cops don't understand that there is an appeal for some to watching trains. And taking pictures of them. All they know is that there is a strange person parked next to a yard (or main line) doing odd things. Their experience with railroads is usally confined to doing fatal accident reports at crossings. Some have been through Operation Lifesaver courses.

My perspective is resenting the general attitude of a lot of my fellow citizens. It reminds me of the homeowner whose house catches on fire and gets upset when a bunch of uncouth firemen dump water all over the big screen TV or soak the rug. The same thing can be said about terrorism today. Frankly, the 9/11 terrorists did nothing illegal that day until they hijacked the aircraft. That doesn't stop people from asking questions like "Why weren't they stopped?" It also doesn't stop righteous law abiding citizens from protesting their civil rights are being violated when they take their shoes off in airports. Both sides of the coin have merit; both sides have good legal points; but it's plainly a no win situation for most cops. Today, it's better and safer to stop and ask questions, rather than watch a building collapse and know you could have stopped it. Or watch a loaded chemical train derail.

Thanks for the soapbox- I'll get down now.
Erik

When I come down to Alabama for that Hootenanny I have heard about, I will be more than cooperative to the police. I will be the one with the I.D that says I am a customs officer.

Stay safe.

Andrew

[slotracer]

Tree, it seems to me certain hobbies draw an unussually high number of weidos and other ones don't, can't explain why. When I was a teen, my parents started to meet various rail buff friends I had at teh time and were less than pleased. They found many to be unmotivated by the things they needed to focus on and have jobs and move out of the house before age 40. The really oddball ones, they worried were perhaps pedaphiles or some other form of physcotices. The rest were mega unconfident anti social types. I can understand why they felt that way, I would too if it were my kid. As I became active in historical orgs, fan trips and model clubs I continued to be exposed to large numbers of weirdo's......folks who had severe wardrobe issues, half shaved, or had hygene issues and were downright offensive. The types that you don't even know, but get between you and someone else, invading your personal space, interupting your conversation with your buddy and never ceasing to talk even when you turn your back on them. People who you don't know aanting to invite themselves to you layout or into your car, people who talk about nothing but trains and never shut up. People who go on into painful detail about some obtuse aspect of some train that don't pick up on the fact no one is listening.....You get the picture.

I changed to S Scale in teh mid eitghtees and quit the historical orgs and gave the impression then I had dropped the hobby just to get detached from the oddballs. Some would call up to set up picture taking trips, people I ahrdly new who goit my number out of the phone book and kept it up after I was to the pont of being rude....they still did not get it. The S guys were pretty normal guys you felt comfortable hanging with, we enjoyed the trains but talked about many other topics of interest we had......folks with a bit more well rounded lives.

My wife to be was turned off by some of the more rude and abrasive types one time when she was out to see NKP 75 and take some photos. She got yelled at for something that din't even happen, I almost flattened the guy, but I threatened him so bad, he left in a hurry. It was the last fantrip occurance she has ever been a part of and that was 2 decades ago....no wait longer than that.
I can ell you that I was part of a vintage warplane museum with my father in the late eighties and those guys were socially aware, well rounded and motivated people, the kind you like to be around. The vintage military and war history guys who came to our airshows though remeinded me of train buffs....a strong contingent of oddballs. I had a friend who restored old cars and the car show guys were OK too, but I went to an antique truck show with him one time and those guys seemd to have the visable oddball contingent again. Star Wars fanatics seem to be the poster child of hobbies with people who have no social skills and live life in an artificial rut of sorts.

By the time I was in the waning period of taking photos after UP gobbled up SP, I too did not "hang out" at the tracks for hours, I'd stop if I saw a train and shoot, maybe chase it if it was slow at normal highway speed and get a few more pics and then break for other activities. When my wife and kids accompanied me up to Tenessee pass I combined a bunch of activities, for them as well as me, visits to antiques shops, short hikes, a nice lunch of stops at historical sites were all mixed in so it was enjoyable to all and I had no desire to be a foamer and devote a day non-stop to picture taking

[Anonymous]

Madame La Mook,
Most of the trainwatchers I've come in contact with, especially here in the forums, don't have a problem with being questioned. Some are even happy to answer my questions and understand why I'm asking them.

Recently, I went through a mandatory training session from Homeland Security. They told us to be aware of some of the commonalities found with folks with evil and explosive intentions. Some of those commonalities were:
-Single men with out of state or rental plates ignorant of local traffic laws or acting "lost".
-A set of binoculars, a map, and a notebook in the front seat. They might have a camera and a GPS, too. It's even stranger if they have a scanner tuned to local police, fire... or railroad channels.

Does that sound like anyone doing something we know and love dearly?

Most cops don't understand that there is an appeal for some to watching trains. And taking pictures of them. All they know is that there is a strange person parked next to a yard (or main line) doing odd things. Their experience with railroads is usally confined to doing fatal accident reports at crossings. Some have been through Operation Lifesaver courses.

My perspective is resenting the general attitude of a lot of my fellow citizens. It reminds me of the homeowner whose house catches on fire and gets upset when a bunch of uncouth firemen dump water all over the big screen TV or soak the rug. The same thing can be said about terrorism today. Frankly, the 9/11 terrorists did nothing illegal that day until they hijacked the aircraft. That doesn't stop people from asking questions like "Why weren't they stopped?" It also doesn't stop righteous law abiding citizens from protesting their civil rights are being violated when they take their shoes off in airports. Both sides of the coin have merit; both sides have good legal points; but it's plainly a no win situation for most cops. Today, it's better and safer to stop and ask questions, rather than watch a building collapse and know you could have stopped it. Or watch a loaded chemical train derail.

Thanks for the soapbox- I'll get down now.
Erik

[Junctionfan]

I don't mind if people ask me what they are doing. Interestingly enough, a police officer actually ask if a particular train was coming through. He gave the I.D number. I told him no, because that particular train does usually go through until later but he stayed for awhile until he had to leave on a call. Can't feel any more safe from harrassment if you are railfaning with the police.

[Mookie]

Erik - I said what I said with a bit of humor, but I was very serious about the thought. I have the utmost respect for people who risk their lives daily. I couldn't do it. Don't have the temperment for it, or the nerve - gun or no.

But people in general will always respond to courtesy and a smile - and don't adopt (as the kids say) a "tude". If you are legal, you have nothing to worry about. I think some trainwatchers pu***he envelope a little and then get all miffy when someone asks what they are doing. Duh?

Mookie

[Anonymous]

I'm a deputy in rural Alabama, and a rail fan bordering on foamer. I've also been present when a "routine traffic stop" turned into a gun fight. I learned caution after that incident.

Last week, it was discovered that terrorists had been happily taking pictures of financial centers in New York and New Jersey. It wasn't so long ago that a New Jersey state trooper- making a routine stop on a speeding ticket- caught someone with a car load of explosives. A customs officer in the Northwest stopped a car based on a "feeling" that something wasn't right. Inspection found bombs. Timothy McVey got caught on a traffic stop in Oklahoma right after he blew up the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City.

Face it folks, someone standing alongside railroad tracks is odd, especially when they are taking pictures. (Perhaps "odd" is too harsh- "eccentric" might be more, ah, accurate.) Madame Mookie was bang on when she described exactly the kind of person I'm going to pull up behind. I genuinely have no idea what you're doing there. You may be broken down and need help. (That's what's going on, most of the time.) You might be talking on your cell phone, and were smart enough to pull over to take that order of a quart of milk on your way home. You might be waiting for a train to hop- some idiots actually do that as a hobby. Or, you might be Osama Bin Lauden waiting to see the results of your latest political statement.

I would really hate to be the cop whose dashboard video tape shows me ignoring the guy who has been found to blow up a NS freight carrying Army equipment. That's about as much fun as watching the poor *** security guard at Washington National airport who let the terrorists through on their one way trip to the Pentagon.

I'm not going to be rude to you, but I will be asking some questions. I'll be asking for a driver's license or some form of ID. (In Alabama, you have to produce ID on request. No probable cause needed.) You can bet that I have already called in your tag, and exactly where I am. My radio will crackle from dispatch with the results of your tag. It's all going to be shot on video tape. That's for my own protection; if I end up getting shot by Osama Bin Lauden, my partners need to know who he is and what he's driving.

I'll ask you if you need help. I'm not hassling you; I'm trying to do my job. If it turns out you missed a court date for a speeding ticket, and there's a bench warrant out on you, guess what? You're under arrest. Yes, I'm going to handcuff you. Yes, you will go into the back of my car. I'm not going to raise my voice; I won't swear at you; all that does is make a scary situation (for the driver, not me) worse. Scared people do some crazy things. The last thing I want to do is to get into hand to hand combat with a 300 pound person in the middle of a panic attack. If I am arresting you, you can bet that I'm going to check the inside of your car. (It's called 'search incidental to a lawful arrest') Your car will be towed and impounded.

Yes, I am an American deputy. My weapon is prominently displayed- it's so I can get to it when I need it. It also has a great deterrent effect on most people who size me up and wonder if they can beat the mud out of me. It has also saved my life. I hope it stays in my holster the rest of my law enforcement career.

You don't have to be a brain surgeon to figure out that if blowing up a few commuter trains during rush hour in Madrid worked well, imagine the wonderful results you can get if you blow up a commuter train in LA. I suspect the transit cops in Madrid are a trifle edgy right now. I would suspect that there's a lot of cops in metropolitan areas feeling a mite bit suspicious, too. They have a lot of reasons to be that way.

I don't intend to excuse rude or obnoxious behavior on the part of the cops. Me, I want to keep the peace and go home at night, preferably intact. Being polite, respectful and soft spoken works for me. Some cops don't see it that way; intimidation gets answers to their questions faster and more efficiently for them.

My experience as a rail foamer is that you stay off their tracks, don't climb on their equipment, and be cooperative when someone asks you for an ID. If they tell you to move on, don't make matters worse by trying to argue law with them. You will be seen as a rectal orifice if you do. Like the middle aged man in the proctologist's office, you will invite examination that will alter your perception of personal privacy. Just understand that most police officers and deputies have good reason for doing what they do. It's never a personal attack on you, unless you make it that way.

Erik

[tregurtha]

My four-year-old son and I spend time at "Conrail's" Sterling Yard in Michigan, the CN line through Pontiac, Michigan, in Durand, and I've also been to Fostoria, Ohio a couple of times and have never had a problem. But we play by the rules, don't trespass and stay safe. The guys at Sterling Yard pretty much know us by now and they're a really nice bunch of people who have even treated my son to a quick look inside a loco a couple of times. They have nothing to gain by us being there, but they go out of their way to be nice. It's a rare treat. I think common sense comes into play here!

[Mookie]

MP57313 - will take your editing with pleasure! And I realize I do have it pretty nice - I drive a couple of miles thru my own city and park to watch about small part of the BNSF rolling stock go by me. Don't have to leave town, don't have to worry about being bothered except by an occasional bug and driver likes trains enough to indulge me in my hobby.

Now if they would just move a porta-potty close by......perfection!

Mook

[MP57313]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie

You know if you think about it - what kind of a picture do you present to people? You are a lone male sitting in {edit: an SUV or a Ford Taurus}, got <snip> camera and probably most of your train watching gear, {maps and SPV and DeLorme atlases}. A mickey d's {or Sheetz or BK or ...} bag by your side and an oversized drink on the dash.

I resemble that remark, as edited above, especially when railfanning out of town! But I rarely sit by the tracks...more often drive from town to town and get pictures of trains as they come by. Yeah, I miss some by doing that.

I stop in at "tourist information centers", which sometimes unintentionally have railfan-useful stuff, such as detailed county maps with RR lines drawn on them. The ones in former RR stations (Front Royal, VA; Orange, VA) are used to railfans stopping by.

As for bringing the wife, that might work for maybe 15 minutes, in a scenic mountain area. But an entire day (or half-day) of railfanning with her...no way. Best to find a shopping center and meet up later. But she did like the parade of trains on the BNSF main while driving along I-40, through Arizona...

[MP57313]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Overmod
He arrogantly struts down the length of the car, a sneer of disdain for the hoi clear on his face. <snip> There was something wrong with this guy's stub. He gets HANDCUFFED, HAULED OFF THE TRAIN AND STUCK IN A SQUAD CAR -- now I see that there are three of these guys conducting the run-through. <snip> This cured me of any delight, and really of any interest, in riding this system.

Whoa! I'm not saying that didn't happen, but that is definitely not the norm. I have ridden the VTA [the San Jose-area system] several times - the $3 daypass is a bargain. I've ridden several other light rail lines with "honor fare" systems too...the only time I saw any kind of confrontation was on the [Los Angeles] MTA Green Line, and it was nothing like what you described.

IMHO your greater risk in some areas is from the questionable passengers, and not law enforcement. Of the lines I have ridden, I would rate the Sacramento RTA (along the former SP branch to Folsom) and Baltimore's system as the ones with the most "creeps on board". Los Angeles MTA's Blue Line passes through some very dangerous and run-down areas, but on the times I've ridden it the on board passenegers are ok...

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SubwayJeff

Why does it seem that the railfans are always called the weird ones and not people who are into other things like planes, hot air balloons etc. I knew a guy who was fascinated by 18 wheelers. I don't personally slam people who have "odd" interests. Why do we seem to bear the brunt of the criticism? If we are foamers I wonder what they call people who are into planes? I wouldnt want to use the term Airheads for fear of offending anyone.

We're probably just being over sensitive. The biggest problem is that we have a limited arena of study. Trains only go so many places. Hot Rods, Semis, motorcycles, guns, quilts, duck decoys, what-have-you, are all so much more portable. Heck, a lot of places have little car shows every week. Show off your hot rod! Of course, everyone enjoys seeing trains in static displays, but how often do they sit still (UP notwithstanding[;)])?

Anyone who is overly interested in one thing can be though of as eccentric.

[Anonymous]

Why does it seem that the railfans are always called the weird ones and not people who are into other things like planes, hot air balloons etc. I knew a guy who was fascinated by 18 wheelers. I don't personally slam people who have "odd" interests. Why do we seem to bear the brunt of the criticism? If we are foamers I wonder what they call people who are into planes? I wouldnt want to use the term Airheads for fear of offending anyone.

[Overmod]

I wish you weren't so RIGHT about what the next terrorist attack is going to be!

I'm still convinced that that fourth plane on September 11th was headed for Calvert Cliffs, not the White House. Only one such 'incident' would be needed to cause exactly the kind of panic, fear, and disaster so beloved of extreme terrorist groups...

I would also concur with Tom Blasingame that there's an attack on some, perhaps many, US refineries coming soon. Expect to see it carefully planned and targeted for specific effect. Makes me almost yearn for the bad old days where a couple of hotheads tried to sneak a bomb past gate security, and got caught every time.

Instructive little (non-political) detail regarding September 11th, to put things in perspective: I don't know if anyone on list remembers the Lockerbie crash hearings. A little detail sneaked through early coverage (and, I believe, was subsequently quashed for reasons of security) -- the number of ACTUAL attempted bomb plots that were intercepted and stopped for one week, either the week in which the plane was bombed or another week close to that time. IIRC, that number was something like 2400. That being just the number of real efforts stopped in progress... not the tips, hunches, or synergistic occurrences that surely occurred during the same period of time.

It's easy in hindsight to say 'what about this private guy from overseas with no flight experience, learning to fly commercial jetliners but not land them'. Easier still to figure out how to express blame in just the politically-damaging form. But, in context, it was one of the things that didn't get acted on until, as it turned out, it was too late...

...and it seems that, at least regarding public terror, enough didn't get learned. The people aboard the 'Syrian musician' flights were terrorized, whether or not there was a real threat or not. And THAT, to me, is just as important a terror weapon as an actual bomb. Shining Path, in Peru, made a successful career out of turning government into 'the heavy' and suppressing civil rights in order to restrict terrorist activity. Let's hope that our current crop of domestic terrorists don't figure this out too well! ;-O

The other half of Mookie's comment, though, has a bit more to it: Just because the less-obvious approaches will be the more devastating doesn't mean that the obvious ones won't still be tried... and won't be any less devastating if, or perhaps when, one of them succeeds...

[Overmod]

slotracer et al.

I've noticed some of this, too. I used to joke that I liked trains "because I loved watching EL commuter service [RS3s and Stilwells] when I was three, and never grew up" -- but I wouldn't be quite as happy if someone else said the same thing...

There are several kinds of railfan, some of which deserve better respect than, er, 'others.' I first observed this in practice in our Railroad Club in high school (with Karl R. Zimmermann, no less) where we had two distinct types of members. One type was interested in learning about, and observing, railroading; the other (which we called "Junior Railfans") was more interested with putting nickels on the track, woo-hooing at the sound of the horns, etc.

My first fantrip was with 2102, and it was here that I came across a third category... the guys with thousands of patches, buttons, pins, etc. decorating their hats and vests. Nowadays the word "Asperger's" pops into my mind in connection with people who do this. I can't say I've seen this kind of railfan setting up photos on live tracks, climbing on equipment, etc. excessively, but they do seem to gravitate to the 'watch the choo-choo' end of the spectrum.

I won't dignify with much comment what I think of 'archaeological' railfans -- those who extract 'souvenirs' from the places they visit -- except to note that they're most of the reason railroaders run fans off some places. (With cavalier safety precautions being the next greatest imho).

Be interesting to see who's developed 'taxonomies' of the railfan community. Where's Dave Barry when he's most wanted? ;-}

[Overmod]

slotracer et al.

I've noticed some of this, too. I used to joke that I liked trains "because I loved watching EL commuter service [RS3s and Stilwells] when I was three, and never grew up" -- but I wouldn't be quite as happy if someone else said the same thing...

There are several kinds of railfan, some of which deserve better respect than, er, 'others.' I first observed this in practice in our Railroad Club in high school (with Karl R. Zimmermann, no less) where we had two distinct types of members. One type was interested in learning about, and observing, railroading; the other (which we called "Junior Railfans") was more interested with putting nickels on the track, woo-hooing at the sound of the horns, etc.

My first fantrip was with 2102, and it was here that I came across a third category... the guys with thousands of patches, buttons, pins, etc. decorating their hats and vests. Nowadays the word "Asperger's" pops into my mind in connection with people who do this. I can't say I've seen this kind of railfan setting up photos on live tracks, climbing on equipment, etc. excessively, but they do seem to gravitate to the 'watch the choo-choo' end of the spectrum.

I won't dignify with much comment what I think of 'archaeological' railfans -- those who extract 'souvenirs' from the places they visit -- except to note that they're most of the reason railroaders run fans off some places. (With cavalier safety precautions being the next greatest imho).

Be interesting to see who's developed 'taxonomies' of the railfan community. Where's Dave Barry when he's most wanted? ;-}

[slotracer]

I think Mookie hit some of it spot on. I don't see many people parked at crossings waiting for trains like I used to, but when I did, the thought "Looser" immediately came into my head and that was when I was still somewhat of a buff myself. I recall when I was a foamer decades ago and the high percentage of social misfits who whould hang out with some of us in our group and what a wierd lot they were a real turn off and one of the reasons why I became an undergrond buff for years before I more or less dropped out of being active int he hobby all together. If these wierdo's gave a fellow buff that impression, imagine the picture that paints to the average John Q public ? It is a stretch for th average Joe to understand whya nayone would want to take pictures of trains instead of watching the NFL or having a bar b que at home or something, the the public, trains are an annoyance and delay at grade crossings.....even normal folks are subspect as some form of looser byt the average non buff, but the wierdo contingent justifys the impression......

Most railroad employees I knew in my workings with Uncle Pete thought buffs were oddballs who were unsuccessful in getting a life, or friends with normal interests....

[Overmod]

I wish you weren't so RIGHT about what the next terrorist attack is going to be!

I'm still convinced that that fourth plane on September 11th was headed for Calvert Cliffs, not the White House. Only one such 'incident' would be needed to cause exactly the kind of panic, fear, and disaster so beloved of extreme terrorist groups...

I would also concur with Tom Blasingame that there's an attack on some, perhaps many, US refineries coming soon. Expect to see it carefully planned and targeted for specific effect. Makes me almost yearn for the bad old days where a couple of hotheads tried to sneak a bomb past gate security, and got caught every time.

Instructive little (non-political) detail regarding September 11th, to put things in perspective: I don't know if anyone on list remembers the Lockerbie crash hearings. A little detail sneaked through early coverage (and, I believe, was subsequently quashed for reasons of security) -- the number of ACTUAL attempted bomb plots that were intercepted and stopped for one week, either the week in which the plane was bombed or another week close to that time. IIRC, that number was something like 2400. That being just the number of real efforts stopped in progress... not the tips, hunches, or synergistic occurrences that surely occurred during the same period of time.

It's easy in hindsight to say 'what about this private guy from overseas with no flight experience, learning to fly commercial jetliners but not land them'. Easier still to figure out how to express blame in just the politically-damaging form. But, in context, it was one of the things that didn't get acted on until, as it turned out, it was too late...

...and it seems that, at least regarding public terror, enough didn't get learned. The people aboard the 'Syrian musician' flights were terrorized, whether or not there was a real threat or not. And THAT, to me, is just as important a terror weapon as an actual bomb. Shining Path, in Peru, made a successful career out of turning government into 'the heavy' and suppressing civil rights in order to restrict terrorist activity. Let's hope that our current crop of domestic terrorists don't figure this out too well! ;-O

The other half of Mookie's comment, though, has a bit more to it: Just because the less-obvious approaches will be the more devastating doesn't mean that the obvious ones won't still be tried... and won't be any less devastating if, or perhaps when, one of them succeeds...

[Anonymous]

I railfan at railroad crossings most of the time, something I don't like to do because there's always people driving by and watching you. I've actually had people stop and ask me "Are you ok? What are you doing standing next to train tracks?". I reply "I'm taking pictures of trains". Then they look at me lke I'm a freak and drive away.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tracy15

Someone tell me why railfans still get treated like we are doing something wrong. I know since 9/11 that a lot has changed as far as security and other issues, but I still think that we are a railroads best friend. I've been run off by railroad employees as well as local police for wanting to take photos. [:0]
I'm sure others have experienced problems also. I just move on even though I wasn't on their property. There are some places that I never have issues with, but not many. Please share any stories you might have.[:)]

who would want to blow up a train!??!?!
it would only derail it and spill some stuff

[Mookie]

I will admit to not being very literate on who governs what . On the statement I made about City Councils, I was thinking while I was typing about our city police. I agree, the city council saying it is ok, doesn't make it ok all the time. But they are our elected officials, just like our Unicameral - and they do set down the rules and regs for us to follow.

And in the case of transit authority - I would figure that would be more federal/state than local. We don't have transit here in the great unknown - only Amtrak twice a day.

Me thinks we really do live in two different worlds.

Mookie

[Overmod]

LA is something of a different world, too. I got to witness something fascinating going westbound on Olympic Boulevard right before Century City. There was some bigwig motorcade coming the other way, in the far distance... lots of lights, sirens, etc. A black guy in a BMW (going eastbound) didn't pull over fast enough to suit a motorcycle cop, who actually drew down on him and made him lie on the pavement at gunpoint until the motorcade had passed by. (This seemed more than a little extreme for failure to obey). Didn't arrest him afterward, either (I admit to pulling over and stopping to watch how this came out) so it wasn't warrants or anything else. This was about 1990 or 1991. Later you may have heard about an Oriental guy who was shot when he 'tried to run down officers in a parking lot'. At about 3mph pulling out of a space. By officers who emptied full magazines into him, and reloaded. Something like 42 bullet holes in the car... (And, of course, there's Rodney King, or for the flip side the trucker who was beaten up in the subsequent riot while the police.... well, what WERE the police doing that day???...

I do sympathize with the amount of crap that most police officers encounter... and with the amount of routine paperwork, rules, etc. they encounter, and with much of the public opinion and prejudice that police officers have to endure. I spent considerable time with a New Jersey State Police detective, who was promoted to Inspector during that time, and so had firsthand contact with both many of the people in the State Police and with the paperwork, training, policies, etc. that were used. That didn't help them get branded with the 'racial profiling' tag, even though they used technical grounds (a favorite one for drug cases evidently being 'pulled over for doing 65 in a 55 zone on the New Jersey Turnpike', which I heard fairly often during my stints in jury duty; those of you who've driven this road will know why this is a technical excuse-for-a-traffic-stop of the first water!).

We won't go into how lawyers think it's SOP at trial to make police look like incompetent, biased bunglers.

Question for whoever said 'if the city council said it's OK, it's OK':

In Alabama, there is a state law forbidding the collection of 'court costs' on speeding tickets in work zones. The prosecutor's staff and judges in Tuscaloosa, Alabama routinely levy substantial court costs in such cases, one must presume with the concurrence of the city authorities. By your argument, this would be OK.

There have been enough constitutionally-grounded overturnings of local laws and ordinances... and even state laws and ordinances... to make me less inclined to give such arguments moral weight. I do wonder, not knowing for sure, whether local city authorities have jurisdiction over this kind of public transportation (or, if not, who does). The guys on the train didn't strike me as being typical San Jose city officers.

[Mookie]

I heard that about the Syrian Musicians - interesting, if we got all the facts. I would have been scared to death - like I said, if we got the straight of the story.

We are walking a fine line in today's world. You want to have law enforcement; you don't want Gestapo. But this is not a very kind or gentle place anymore. And on the other hand, you will always have the militants that will get into some kind of law enforcement.

I still maintain we are looking at the obvious - and if there is going to be some kind of terrorism, it will be the not so obvious. Kind of a red herring in a novel.

Good conversation - have enjoyed the exchange of opinions.

Mookie

[Overmod]

I should probably add that after September 11th, and more particularly after Madrid, I would expect increased security action regarding passenger railroads. In order to be 'fair', police enforcement has to be consistent... no 'racial profiling' permitted, even though it might seem 'better' to concentrate enforcement on what the police, etc. consider 'obvious' subjects. (A somewhat terrifying example of this appears to be seen in the recent reports of flights with "Syrian musicians" aboard...)

So I don't mind being quizzed, or even 'followed up on' by the FBI. On the other hand, actually arresting me for photographing trains (or confiscating the camera, film, chips, etc.) would be more extreme... but perhaps still justifiable, especially in conditions of known emergency (such as those announced in Washington this past week). Just as long as I don't get 'singled out' for selective enforcement...

[Mookie]

I don't disagree with you that this was possibly an incident that could have been handled differently. LA and Chief Gates found out all about that.

I just wanted to make sure we had a possible other side to the equation. I listen to our police on my scanner and some of the garbage they get sent out on - I am pretty patient, but believe me, I would never qualify. I would have trouble controlling the urge to slap someone silly about some of the things they whine about.

And if the transit authority has set down the rules about what steps should be taken and the city council has said it is ok - or the committee in charge of laws in San Jose, then you can't very well blame the police. They are told how to handle the situations. (Here in Lincoln, they ask permission to arrest in a lot of the cases!)

Mookie

[tree68]

And one cannot dismiss the idea that he might be a repeat offender, well known to the cops, etc.

That said, I've been involved with police work for a long time, although on the periphery. My father and uncle wore badges, one part-time, one full-time, and I count a lot of friends in the business. There are officers that carry themselves professionally. And there are officers who seem to center on the authority of their badge. Sometimes it's an individual thing, and sometimes it's cultural. What was that movie about the feud between some state troopers and local cops? Super Trooper?

[Overmod]

I couldn't agree more -- if you have suspects for violent crime, by all means come aboard and take them off to the pokey.

The problem in San Jose, in part, is PRECISELY in what the definition of 'bad guy' is. I find it incredibly hard to class farebeating -- of any kind -- in the same league as armed robbery, even in California.

I suppose I don't mind the idea that uniformed personnel will periodically patrol transit vehicles checking up to see that the fares have been paid. We used to see them... called 'conductors'. In our current world, it's more cost-effective to eliminate such people (so we can pay for things like kickbacks to the husbands of important California legislators, presumably) and to use the police power to enforce fare collections. Even that, I suppose, is OK (although one wonders whether the police don't have enough real criminal activity to go after with all the resources I saw used, or better put, might not have been quite so eager had there been any likelihood of forcible resistance on the part of transit-car riders, or the potential for lucrative income in fine$).

I've been a supporter of police since I can remember... and I indeed know how professional officers do their job. In Virginia, now many years ago, a friend of mine was pulled over for suspected drunk driving. Despite repeatedly insulting the officer and otherwise behaving badly, he was treated politely and not abused. The officer allowed me to drive his car back to a safe parking spot instead of impounding it. I spent an hour or so talking about favorite bass fishing spots with the Charlottesville magistrate and ensured that he was released on recognizance early the following morning. THAT is the way that the police and justice system ought to operate in America, regardless of how severely the operation of the courts and subsequent enforcement might be invoked.

One presumes that when the bus was stopped, the police didn't threaten anyone else on the bus, and explained what they were doing after the fact. In short, didn't enjoy domination over the plain folks because they were the police. Which is what was so striking about what I saw.

[Anonymous]

This is a very difficult topic in today's time. I myself have never had a problem with this, but understand some where the otherside is coming from. Being that I live in rural central MN is probably why I never have a problem, I always get waves from the train crews, track inspectors and track gangs. It is a shame that often the best set of eyes watching for trouble (the railfan) has their motives questioned.

How many times have you taken debris off the track or spotted something that could pose a problem for the next train? I know I'm always watching for things like this and help whenever I can, and I'm sure the rest of us are too!