Does anyone have any links to EOBRs shutting down a truck when the driver's time expires? I looked at something on the FMCSA website and some articles from trucking websites but couldn't find anything. One site belonged to an attorney telling of unforseen problems, but didn't mention trucks being turned off as one of them. Admittedly, I haven't looked at everything and sometimes if you don't get the right key words you can find everything but what you're looking for. That's why I ask.
Or could there be some misinformation floating around. I know around the railroad there's always some rumor of impending doom going around and I imagine trucking is no different. I also imagine there's some drivers who don't particularly like the idea of a device recording there every move. Makes it harder to fudge the log book. (I took the driving course at Kirkwood Comm. College in Cedar Rapids many years ago. The instructor said they used to teach how to fudge the log books. That is until one of CRST's students turned out not to be a prospective driver but a newly hired safety officer.)
Jeff
jeffhergert Does anyone have any links to EOBRs shutting down a truck when the driver's time expires? I looked at something on the FMCSA website and some articles from trucking websites but couldn't find anything. One site belonged to an attorney telling of unforseen problems, but didn't mention trucks being turned off as one of them. Admittedly, I haven't looked at everything and sometimes if you don't get the right key words you can find everything but what you're looking for. That's why I ask. Or could there be some misinformation floating around. I know around the railroad there's always some rumor of impending doom going around and I imagine trucking is no different. I also imagine there's some drivers who don't particularly like the idea of a device recording there every move. Makes it harder to fudge the log book. (I took the driving course at Kirkwood Comm. College in Cedar Rapids many years ago. The instructor said they used to teach how to fudge the log books. That is until one of CRST's students turned out not to be a prospective driver but a newly hired safety officer.) Jeff
Jeff The FMCSA and USDOT in the Last round said TRUST us we are NOT going to make it impossible to stop the clock THEN THEY DID. They alos said we will not touch the 15 hour timeframe then they made it 14 hours. Everyone knows the US EBORS will be based off the EU model which is dacronian to say the least. Over in Europe you speed even DOWNHILL you end up with a suspended license. Your EBOR has a tatetale to the local LEO's that will call them if you speed. Lastly theirs DO SHUT THEM DOWN if they get over hours makes them run 10 KMH to they get off the road. I can crawl faster than that.
Maybe we shoud have EOBR's attached to Congress - of course it's hard to tell if they are working and to automatically stop inaction is difficult.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
edbenton Also Tree if a Dispatcher was so good at keep his territory so fluid then why do Train crews still run out of HOURS and need to be Dogcaught.
Also Tree if a Dispatcher was so good at keep his territory so fluid then why do Train crews still run out of HOURS and need to be Dogcaught.
Because things happen. Trains have air trouble, engine trouble, they have defects, switches don't throw, signals don't come in, meth heads that live along the track steal code line and a million other things that can go wrong do. Most dispatchers are very good at keeping ther territory fluid when every thing works. The dispatchers that can keep things fluid when things are not working so well are the real good ones.
An "expensive model collector"
edbenton EBORs are the Electronic Logbook that can and WILL shut off the truck when the driver of said truck runs out of hours regarless of WHERE HE IS when he runs out of time on his clock for the day. Now can you imagine the time up in say Chicago driver hits 14 for the day when his Logboog Shuts off the Truck in the Center lane of the IKE or the Stevenson on a Friday in a COnstruction zone and he gets REAR ENDED. Now can you imagine the tie up in Rush hour from that one. That is what the Current FMCSA is forcing on Truckers now.
EBORs are the Electronic Logbook that can and WILL shut off the truck when the driver of said truck runs out of hours regarless of WHERE HE IS when he runs out of time on his clock for the day. Now can you imagine the time up in say Chicago driver hits 14 for the day when his Logboog Shuts off the Truck in the Center lane of the IKE or the Stevenson on a Friday in a COnstruction zone and he gets REAR ENDED. Now can you imagine the tie up in Rush hour from that one. That is what the Current FMCSA is forcing on Truckers now.
Dan
n012944 edbenton: Also Tree if a Dispatcher was so good at keep his territory so fluid then why do Train crews still run out of HOURS and need to be Dogcaught. Because things happen. Trains have air trouble, engine trouble, they have defects, switches don't throw, signals don't come in, meth heads that live along the track steal code line and a million other things that can go wrong do. Most dispatchers are very good at keeping ther territory fluid when every thing works. The dispatchers that can keep things fluid when things are not working so well are the real good ones.
edbenton: Also Tree if a Dispatcher was so good at keep his territory so fluid then why do Train crews still run out of HOURS and need to be Dogcaught.
Johnny
CNW 6000Plus this is about trains and not trucks.
True that. I think we morphed over when the idea of people in ivory towers making rules they know nothing about came up.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
CNW 6000 edbenton: EBORs are the Electronic Logbook that can and WILL shut off the truck when the driver of said truck runs out of hours regarless of WHERE HE IS when he runs out of time on his clock for the day. Now can you imagine the time up in say Chicago driver hits 14 for the day when his Logboog Shuts off the Truck in the Center lane of the IKE or the Stevenson on a Friday in a COnstruction zone and he gets REAR ENDED. Now can you imagine the tie up in Rush hour from that one. That is what the Current FMCSA is forcing on Truckers now. Then maybe the trucker should think before getting on the road. If you don't think you can make it then get in the clear before you get "shut down". Plus this is about trains and not trucks.
edbenton: EBORs are the Electronic Logbook that can and WILL shut off the truck when the driver of said truck runs out of hours regarless of WHERE HE IS when he runs out of time on his clock for the day. Now can you imagine the time up in say Chicago driver hits 14 for the day when his Logboog Shuts off the Truck in the Center lane of the IKE or the Stevenson on a Friday in a COnstruction zone and he gets REAR ENDED. Now can you imagine the tie up in Rush hour from that one. That is what the Current FMCSA is forcing on Truckers now.
Plus this is about trains and not trucks,Thank you CNW 6000...........
Russell
csxns Plus this is about trains and not trucks,Thank you CNW 6000...........
Let's think about this, though - PTC got rammed down our throats because an engineer was texting instead of watching where he was going.
If EBOR exists in the trucking community, all it's gonna take is one high profile rail incident where HOS even thinks about being part of the cause...
Then it'll be relevant. Use ATS. It works...there's this place called Chicago. Ask them.
tree68 Let's think about this, though - PTC got rammed down our throats because an engineer was texting instead of watching where he was going.
If it wasn't that, it would have been something else.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
For the OTR guys it was that Idoit Crete Driver that was sitting on 92 hours in 8 days that fell asleep behind the wheel in FL about 5 years ago and Ran over a School Bus. Yeah that was the HOLY CRAP Moment for the DOT meaning they Lie on the book. Since the Statue of Limitations is run out on me and my company it was Nothing for me in 99 to go 4-5000 miles SOLO week in week out hauling Produce Hours used in a week about 90 but still I ran the miles assigned to me. Hell if I DID NOT RUN THEM SOMEONE ELSE AS OVER ON THE BOOK AS ME WOULD HAVE DONE THEM ANYWAY. See the Problem we will run as many miles as we can. I was getting 32 cents for Every mile that truck roled plus 10% pier diem so roughly 35 cents a mile. So on a 4000 Mile week I would be grossing 1400 and would net 1000 if I hammered out the 5000 it was a gross of 1750 and I would bring home over 1200 every WEEK.
So you tell me your not gpoing to run your tail off for that kind cash. I kept the log book looking legal enough for the DOT aka I could have been there if I got pulled behind the scale. The boys at Trukee hated to see me why I was legal everytime.
With all due respects to Ed, those kind of shenanigans go a long way in explaining why EBOR exists and why over-the-road drivers have little respect from the motoring public.
Thank groups like the ATA and the TEAMSTERS union that for YEARS fought to keep OTR drivers EXEMPT from the Fair wage Act which means No OVERTIME after 40 HOURS. Also the fact most drivers are paid per mile which means the wheels are not turning we are not EARNING a penny in pay. Then the ATA also forced longer Heavier trailers and weight limits on the Industry and LOWERED the Training Standard on the Drivers that came into the INDUSTRY. I see the drivers that the Mega Carriers like Swift Schiender JB Hunt Maverick TMC hire today and to be honest with you I trained 11 years ago and NOT one of the Steering Wheel holders these Schools are turning out I would let NEAR my truck 11 Years ago.
11 Years ago I required all my Trainees to know how to drive a Stick Shift Trans Missiion now companies put in Automatics since the New Breed can not even figure out how to use a Clutch. Reefer Units have Presets for the produce on them you look at a Picturefind what your hauling and the Computer sets the Temp. I had to manually set it and keep an eye on it. These things don't tell the Driver if they have an Issure THEY CALL THE SHOP on tgheir OWN since these NEW AGE IDIOTS can not even tell the shop what is wrong. Do not blame the Driver he might be an old breed Blame his carrier that lowered their Standards so low that if you have a Pulse and can pass the Pee test your sitting in the seat. Here is how bad it is. Most everyone on this board knows I have Epilepsy and that is a FULL Auto DQ from Driving Interstate Commerce hell I do not even have a CDL let alone a Regular DL anymore. CR England one of the Worst of the Worst of the Mega Carriers just 3 Months ago Wanted me to Become a Freaking OTR trainer for them at 55 CPM now I have no CDL could not pass the Medical Exam and all that junk. They were going to LIE on my Medical card to get me in the truck. What does that tell you about them. Why because the FMCSA is on them about their Training Methods and either they Straighten up or they are going to be Shut Down forever.
The carriers do not care WTF happens out there all they want is that next driver trained to fill that seat. Some carriers have drivers with as few as 6 MONTHS total OTR being TRAINERS. That in RR terms would be like making the Junior Yardmaster the CEO of the UP after a week. These so called trainers are still wet behind their Balls ears Noses heck most of them have never driven in heavy Snow yet they are given a trainee to teach. Sure and I could drive Daytona as well as Dale JR at 200 MPH. Anymore the Drivers are begining to Push back and we are pushing back HARD companies realized something if the trucks stop they are screwed so now carriers are begining to rtreat us like Humans except for the Bottom Feeders and even they are coming around slowly. Called drivers are talking and word is getting out.
I still have't found any referrence, other than rumor, about EOBR shutting down trucks. I was even on a trucker's forum. And you thought we had "spirited" discussions.
Anyway, there have been flyers posted in the crew rooms for about a week or so about something we're getting in the near future. I think I've seen some items in Trains and Railway Age about it. It's called LEADER from New York Air Brake Co. It's not exactly PTC, but it's kind of close to the EOBR. We already have "Black Box" event recorders and some can be downloaded via satellite at any time. This seems to be an enhanced black box, with add ons. It can be used in either a information only mode or an assist mode. That's where it tells the engineer what throttle or braking position he should be in. This (so far) is just for train handling and fuel conservation. It doesn't show signal indications or movement authority. The UP engines that I've seen that actually have a screen for the PTC display, the trade name on the screen is Wabtech.
The push is for fuel savings, claims on the flyer say it can save 11% over current usage. We have a fuel bonus program with monthly rankings. All engineers are going to be sent thru the simulator eventually for fuel conservation. They are starting with those consistently at the bottom of the list. The talk is already going around that if fuel savings don't occur, discipline will start being given.
http://www.nyab.com/media/documents/downloadsservices/products_1/leader_1/leader.pdf
Jeff what we are going by is what the SEC trans has said the Head of FMCSA has said on what they want for the EBOR requirements. They want it set up on the European modal where they are Shut Down if you run over their HOS. Under the Current Administartion the DOT has hammered the trucking industry with regulations that make the life of the OTR trucker so hard to live it has driven the old timers out of the IUdustry allowed UNSAFE and we are talking UNSAFE Mexican trucks to have free Reign on the USA plus refused to fund the Highway Trust Fund all at the Same TIME.
Just like they're going to start requiring farmers to get CDLs to operate farm machinery over public roads.
You have just answered your own question about why it is being done. Log book as they are being kept at present are just a exercise in creative writing for those that use and abuse the system.
edbenton So you tell me your not gpoing to run your tail off for that kind cash. I kept the log book looking legal enough for the DOT aka I could have been there if I got pulled behind the scale. The boys at Trukee hated to see me why I was legal everytime.
Actually anymore the DOT will match about any reciept with a time in your truck to where your logbook and if it does not match Lord help your butt. So will your company since the DOT does it that way, plus most companies use the Qualcoms anyway for the Logbook with an Elogbook so your not even filling out a piece of paper and can not cheat on it anymore. That plus it is not worth the risk. Anymore if I was still out there I would not even risk it. CVSA makes it way to expensive to my livelyhood to risk doing anything illegal. Between CVSA 2010 and USIS aka DAC you screw up your done as a driver if you screw up.
I know of one driver that got placed OOS for not logging his Meal stop at a Mc Donalds he was 30 mins off and he got stopped for speeding. God forbid you have an Accident and your wrong on your log book the other Parties Lawyer is going to Bend your Comapny and you so far over you will be able to part yoru hair with your toes.
jeffhergert [snipped] Anyway, there have been flyers posted in the crew rooms for about a week or so about something we're getting in the near future. . . . It's called LEADER from New York Air Brake Co. . . . This seems to be an enhanced black box, with add ons. It can be used in either a information only mode or an assist mode. That's where it tells the engineer what throttle or braking position he should be in. This (so far) is just for train handling and fuel conservation. It doesn't show signal indications or movement authority. The UP engines that I've seen that actually have a screen for the PTC display, the trade name on the screen is Wabtech. The push is for fuel savings, claims on the flyer say it can save 11% over current usage. We have a fuel bonus program with monthly rankings. All engineers are going to be sent thru the simulator eventually for fuel conservation. They are starting with those consistently at the bottom of the list. The talk is already going around that if fuel savings don't occur, discipline will start being given. http://www.nyab.com/media/documents/downloadsservices/products_1/leader_1/leader.pdf Jeff
Wonder if any of the NS operating folks here - zugmann, wabash1 (if he's still around), and maybe some others - could comment on it.
- Paul North.
Ed: having been out of the industry for ten years, you sent me back to the ' books'.
I think that this is what you meant??
From this Linked article:
http://www.adslogistics.com/blog/?&&&Tag=FMCSA&BBPage=1
Refrencing "Electronic On Board Recorders [EBOR's]"
FTL:"...Department of Transportation Secretary (DOT) Ray LaHood said, “We cannot protect our roadways when commercial truck and bus companies exceed hours-of-service rules. This proposal would make our roads safer by ensuring that carriers traveling across state lines are using EOBRs to track the hours their drivers spend behind the wheel..."
FTL:"...The main purpose of the new rule is to crack down on HOS violations. EOBRs make it much easier for hours to be tracked, even across state lines. Carriers that are in violation of this EOBR requirement will face penalties of up to $11,000 for each offense, and failing to comply will also negatively impact a carrier's safety fitness rating and DOT operating authority..."
FTL:'...The change was proposed on January 31, 2011 as a follow up to a rule made in 2010 that made larger carriers switch to EOBR’s because of their consistent HOS violations. The rule was that if a carrier had violations over 10% they were required to start using EOBR’s. In the rule the FMCSA made a note that a broader implementation of EOBR’s would soon follow. The January 31st proposal is the broader mandate that was alluded to by the FMCSA..."
I am including this part because it references a site for public feedbac(?)
FTL:"...The proposal is another step that Cornell and the DOT have taken together on their e-Rulemaking Initiative (CeRI). The CeRI makes the federal regulatory process more accessible to the public through Regulation Room, which is an online public participation site where people can learn about and discuss proposed federal regulations. The public is also allowed to provide effective feedback to the DOT. This is another big step toward keeping President Obama's promise of allowing more citizen participation in the government..."
FTL:'...Mandating that all interstate carriers use EOBR’s will definitely have an impact on the trucking industry. It will make HOS much easier to track and it will help prevent further violations. All of this is an attempt to make roads safer by decreasing the amount of fatigued driving done by commercial truckers. Whether or not cracking down on HOS violations will actually increase safety is still being debated. The general consensus is that it will definitely increase the amount of cash in the government’s pocket, but as for the safety I guess we’ll have to wait and see..." ;emphasis added by Samfp1943]
The meat of this issue seems to be in the last paragraph, IMHO. Their mandating of this provision has some very onerous meanings for the OTR Trucking industry. Implementation of these rule making regulations will surely cost the general population more at the grocery store, and for everything else we buy as consumers. It will add exponentially to the cost of transportation across the board, and will force the further creation of transportation centers ( origins and destinations of longer hauls for TOFC and COFC freight.
Paul_D_North_Jr I believe NS has been running LEADER - "Locomotive Engineer Assist Display and Event Recorder" - for several years now, starting with a 'pilot project' from 2003 to 2005, and a broader 'roll-out' in 2006. See: http://www.nscorp.com/nscportal/nscorp/Investors/Financial_Reports/Investor%20Book/technology.html Wonder if any of the NS operating folks here - zugmann, wabash1 (if he's still around), and maybe some others - could comment on it.
I believe NS has been running LEADER - "Locomotive Engineer Assist Display and Event Recorder" - for several years now, starting with a 'pilot project' from 2003 to 2005, and a broader 'roll-out' in 2006. See: http://www.nscorp.com/nscportal/nscorp/Investors/Financial_Reports/Investor%20Book/technology.html
Think you may want to have some asbestos underwear handy...
- Erik
Yeah, I knew that 'going in', Erik. But 'user community' folks like jeff could benefit from the experiences - good, bad, indifferent - of the NS engineers over the past 5 years, and be guided accordingly, instead of thinking that it's all completely new, untried, no experience base, etc. There are likely extensive comments at YardLimits.com, JReb's NS discussion board forum, and perhaps union-related websites or forums. Just googling "NS" + "LEADER" + "locomotive" led to many results. I had another NS link that didn't get posted for some reason, so here it is: http://www.nscorp.com/nscportal/nscorp/Media/News%20Releases/2005/ny_airbrake.html
Also, here's a link to a NS PowerPoint overview for investors (!) dated June 3, 2009 which consists of 12 slides (approx. 539 KB in size): http://www.nscorp.com/nscorphtml/pdf/09invday-jcl-color.pdf
Back to the original topic (Erik, if you have a spare pair, I'm sure gonna need 'em now ! )
Here's a link to just one entry of a fascinating blog that i just ran across by Ron Lindsey, who apparently invented, designed, and implemented the 1st PTC "overlay" system in the US some years ago. In essence, he appears to claim that the present 'roll-out' is way too expensive, but that is largely self-inflicted by the system architecture as selected by the 4 lead RRs pursuant to the Rail Safety Act and FRA rules mandates. I don't have time to go into depth there or here, but for those with an interest or the technical knowledge, have at it !
http://strategicrailroading.com/2011/05/ptc-spring-sale-80-off/
Knowing the manner in which PTC was knee jerkingly mandated by Congress, the carriers know going into the design phase if the can't account for the 1/999999999999999999999 (excuse me I forgot to take all those 9's to the 999999999999999th power) chance that something was foreseeable and have a bell & whistle in the system they design to prevent it they will be crucified in the court of public opinion if not in the courts of law. The system is overly complex because you have lawyers mandating it and when it comes to court for any failings - lawyers tearing it apart.....if only the lawyers would tear each other apart end leave the rest of society to live productive lives.
Paul_D_North_Jr Here's a link to just one entry of a fascinating blog that i just ran across by Ron Lindsey, who apparently invented, designed, and implemented the 1st PTC "overlay" system in the US some years ago. In essence, he appears to claim that the present 'roll-out' is way too expensive, but that is largely self-inflicted by the system architecture as selected by the 4 lead RRs pursuant to the Rail Safety Act and FRA rules mandates. I don't have time to go into depth there or here, but for those with an interest or the technical knowledge, have at it ! http://strategicrailroading.com/2011/05/ptc-spring-sale-80-off/ - Paul North.
Welcome to the Wonderful World of being SUED by everyone and their Mother for accidents. For Years everyone has known the DOT here in the States has been pushing for 2 things EBORS and Speed Limiters. However the Last one will never come thru why there are Enough Independant Owner Operators out there that would refuse to go along with that to kill that off. That and there are enough states with High speed Interstates that if you do run 65 your going to need a sign Slow Moving Vechile on your Back end. Why did Swift raise their Speed Jerry Moyles got tired of getting tickets for IMPEDEDING traffic made out to him. So he raised the speed to 62 same with Scheinder. It was not the Drivers getting the tickets it was the Companies getting them.
The best part of being sued by Everyone you get to realize this man it SUCKS and the Goverment could NOT get itself out of a Wet Paper Sack even equipped with a Chainsaw topped with a Flamethrower.
BaltACD Knowing the manner in which PTC was knee jerkingly mandated by Congress, the carriers know going into the design phase if the can't account for the 1/999999999999999999999 (excuse me I forgot to take all those 9's to the 999999999999999th power) chance that something was foreseeable and have a bell & whistle in the system they design to prevent it they will be crucified in the court of public opinion if not in the courts of law. The system is overly complex because you have lawyers mandating it and when it comes to court for any failings - lawyers tearing it apart.....if only the lawyers would tear each other apart end leave the rest of society to live productive lives.
Nah I think the Best saying was from my father who I teamed with in 97-98 when the Goverment says we are going to Improve things you need to grab 3 things 1st is our Wallets as we all know when the Govermnet mandates something it is going to COST US HUGE. Second is our ankles as it is time to BEND OVER. Last grab the Vasoline we are going to be needing it as the Goverment has never believed in LUBE.
Why did I say that for me it is look no further than the OTR industry when the EPA mandated all their Emission BS that the Engine boys had already agreed to but the EPA decided they wanted rolled out in half the time. Trucks went up in Cost by over 20K each new and Mileage went DOWN 20% reliablity went way the hell down and repairs went up from what I have heard 30%. Now via an Excutive Order the Obama Administration wants 18 MPG out of a Class 8 Semi at all times. It is not going to freaking happen. I want to know what Looney Planet he lives on. There is no way in Hell that class 8 rig is going to be able to get 18MPG at all times.
edbenton It is not going to freaking happen. I want to know what Looney Planet he lives on. There is no way in Hell that class 8 rig is going to be able to get 18MPG at all times.
And we'll never send a man to the moon, either. I know us americans like to take pride in our ignorance, but c'mon... I bet we could do it pretty darn easily if we wanted to.
Zug Before the EPA mandated all the Current Emissions Bullcrap onto OTR trucks Peterbilt did a Test with a 387 model their Most Areo truck with Full Fairings equipped with a 9 direct and 470 Detroit 60 Series a truck that is Known to be the BEST for fuel mileage. They then had the Best Fuel savers added to the Trailer such as Whale tails Super Singles and belly sheilds. This was back in 1999. The Best they could get at 60 MPH to avoid being a target on the road was 9.5 MPG. That was with the drivers sleeping in a Hotel everynight and a 3% idle time. Freighliner shows their Cascadia their Most Areo truck they can Come up with will only get 8.5 MPG that is Less than what we could get 11 years ago. Why EPA emissions crap takes more fuel to Regenarate the DPF that they mandated 4 years ago. Yet the President wants something that can not be met. The only way this might be met 100 hp engines and chains to help pull trucks UP the HILLS all across the nations.
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