http://trn.trains.com/Railroad%20News/News%20Wire/2011/09/Union%20Pacific%20boss%20positive%20train%20control%20a%20terrible%20waste.aspx
My comments...does PTC even work at all? It essentially is a waste when it isn't working, and I heaven't heard much about this, just that there doesn't seem to be any confirmation that it works at all, and plenty of grumblings of it not working. Sure, if it works, it may quite well be worth it for obvious reasons, but if it's marginally functional at best, would it actually be seriously problematic, besides a massive waste of $$$? How all has PTC come along so far?
I've worked in territory with waysides only. I've worked on lines that need track warrants/authorities. I worked lines with cab signals. And I've worked lines with cab signals and LSL. Guess which I prefer? Guess which one just about every RRer I work with prefers?
Cab signals have been around since 1920-30s? Maybe if the roads would have slowly been upgrading their lines with cab signals and LSL/ATS through the years, there wouldn't be such a huge PTC push. That's just my opinion, for what it is worth.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
I don’t think there is any way to put the toothpaste back in the tube now that this is rolling forward. Whether or not it works will make no difference at all. I doubt it will be possible to even definitively prove it works or does not work. Wasting money does not matter to people who have the power to mandate. And incidentally, you can bet that the cost will be at least four times the projected price.
It flunks a cost/benefit analysis, Especially when $19B could be used on more productive safety enhancements.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD It flunks a cost/benefit analysis, Especially when $19B could be used on more productive safety enhancements.
Such as?
How much did Graniteville cost?
zugmann BaltACD: It flunks a cost/benefit analysis, Especially when $19B could be used on more productive safety enhancements. Such as? How much did Graniteville cost?
BaltACD: It flunks a cost/benefit analysis, Especially when $19B could be used on more productive safety enhancements.
Measures much more cost effective than PTC would have prevented Graniteville which occurred in unsignaled territory. A 'simple' Automatic Block Signal system would have prevented Graniteville, even with the rule failures of the local crew that tied up with the main track switch open.
I still like cab signals and a form of auto train stop. Even if it is not 100% foolproof (WMATA), it sure is better than relying on a human 100% of the time.
Those who drove Yugo's prefered Rolls Royce's too,
zugmann I still like cab signals and a form of auto train stop. Even if it is not 100% foolproof (WMATA), it sure is better than relying on a human 100% of the time.
BaltACD Those who drove Yugo's prefered Rolls Royce's too, zugmann: I still like cab signals and a form of auto train stop. Even if it is not 100% foolproof (WMATA), it sure is better than relying on a human 100% of the time.
zugmann: I still like cab signals and a form of auto train stop. Even if it is not 100% foolproof (WMATA), it sure is better than relying on a human 100% of the time.
But there are more choices than a Yugo or a Rolls. Even if every single mile of track isn't full PTC.. there is a lot of track that (IMO) should be.
Bucyrus I don’t think there is any way to put the toothpaste back in the tube now that this is rolling forward. Whether or not it works will make no difference at all. I doubt it will be possible to even definitively prove it works or does not work. Wasting money does not matter to people who have the power to mandate. And incidentally, you can bet that the cost will be at least four times the projected price.
Sounds like the exact same description of airbags in cars.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
The OTR industry is saying the Same thing about EBOR's why because most of our Accidents like 75-80% are not even the Truckers fault in any way shape or Form regardless of how you cut it, Or you will be in an accident in either a Truckstop Parking lotor a Shipper or Reciever. when you get backed into or things like that. Yet the FMCSA is pushing for EBORs since they think they will stop all accidents from happening. No what will stop them from happening is when Drivers have the time to get places without rushing from place to place and a stop for meals again.
"Cab signals have been around since 1920-30s? Maybe if the roads would have slowly been upgrading their lines with cab signals and LSL/ATS through the years, there wouldn't be such a huge PTC push. That's just my opinion, for what it is worth. "
-This makes me wonder then why the push for PTC, when instead pushing for this type of upgrade across much of the system has long been wanted, needed, and likely effective.
"Sounds like the exact same description of airbags in cars"
-Well, even having been in a wreck myself, I am familiar with airbags actually working. The thing is, in my 3-car accident, all of us had our seatbelts on, and we had no real injuries. To those of you who have listened to emergency responders, especially over the scanner, you know how different those calls are for people in accidents who were not wearing their seatbelts, regardless of if the airbags deployed (which they likely did). Perhaps PTC is like a raw airbag, and cab signals and ATS are like the seatbelts that should have been used all along.
"No what will stop them from happening is when Drivers have the time to get places without rushing from place to place and a stop for meals again."
-Well, having the time is one thing as well, but even many people with the time still rush or are careless, if not aggressive drivers. It's way more about attitude. Of course, it's stupid for anybody to think that EBORs (whatever they are?), or anything at all, will prevent all accidents. Now I can't assess what good EBORs might be as I don't know what they are, but it sounds that like with many things, they'll only be effective if used realistically, rather than expecting everything from them.
EBORs are the Electronic Logbook that can and WILL shut off the truck when the driver of said truck runs out of hours regarless of WHERE HE IS when he runs out of time on his clock for the day. Now can you imagine the time up in say Chicago driver hits 14 for the day when his Logboog Shuts off the Truck in the Center lane of the IKE or the Stevenson on a Friday in a COnstruction zone and he gets REAR ENDED. Now can you imagine the tie up in Rush hour from that one. That is what the Current FMCSA is forcing on Truckers now.
WHOA! That is such an incredibly bad idea on so many levels, I can't see how they'd be so dumb as to try to create such a thing! Even worse that your scenerio...what if he starts to make a left turn toward a parking lot to stop for the day, but he is seconds too late...the trucks shuts off, stranding the truck suddenly in oncoming traffic. Now there's a pileup with a massive loss of life. Great idea. And what about if an emergency situation requires a trucker to ignore the HOS and drive his truck for whatever reason, and he's at the end of his shift. Big boy, you had better be a fast runner, 'cause you ain't taking that thing nowhere!
There should perhaps be electronic monitoring, viewing, and enforcement of penalties to those who violate the laws, just as there are with other types of drivers who do things like running red lights, speeding, or drunk driving. Habitual breakers of the time requirements could face a loss of their liscences just as drunk drivers do. But to act like there can never be any reason a truck would run beyond the 14-hour mark and forcibly shut it off there and then is so obviously stupid, I don't see how it ever made it past the drawing board!
EBOR's are a person that has NEVER seen what an OTR trucker deals with never sat behind the Wheel of a Truck or Never dealt with delays in getting a cup of coffee. These are also the same people that refuse to allow a Trucker to Idle to stay cool or warm as needed in Certain states in this nation want us to REMOVE ICE from our trailers after a blizzard from the roofs. But if you hurt a dog will throw your but in jail and Throw away the key. See where I am going a Dog has more right than someone that controls 80K lbs down the highway.
Anymore DOT enforcement is all about MONEY not saftey. They know you will not be able to cheat an EBOR so that is why they are pushing them once they get them then they can go after the shippers that are causing the Delays and look out for massive cost increases.
These same people are the ones that decreed that OTR drivers do not deserve to stop for a Meal break or other stuff. Why do you think so many drivers with 20+ years are getting out of the industry tired of all the Regs being rammed down the throats of the industry.
So as railroad rules are to try to make railroads safer, trucking rules "railroad" the truckers. That's the DOT, alright. Sounds a lot like the way hunting has gone come to think of it, though that's a whole 'nother issue.
You think the EBOR crap is sad since 9/11 the Haz-Mat rules have gotten FRACKEN Stupid if you drive OTR to get your Endorsement for your CDL. You pay to have the FBI do a FUll Criminal background on you and if you pass you cna get the Haz-mat endorse ment. However your still not allowed to haul it. Since most Hazmat goes into and out of Ports you need to get a TWIC card which needs another CBI check. You just had one to get your Haz-mat however getting your hazmat means SQUAT to the IDIOTS at the TSA they want you to pay for another Federal background check. Heaven help your butt if your hauling Explosives for the Goverment anymore.
Now lets look at what it was 15 years ago you went in to the local DMV picked out what endorsements you needed for you CDL and took the tests. Now without that CBI your not able to haul Haz-Mat of anykind. Yet there has not been one instance of a Driver of a company stealing anything that could be used as a weapon before or after 9/11 yet we are the ones that got HAMMERED with more red tape than you can shake a stick at.
Re: EBORs... The railroads already have EBORs, only they call them dispatchers. The dispatcher either knows when a crew will run out of time, or checks with them to find out, then plans where they'll tie up/recrew so it will occur before they "die on the law."
Assuming that the EBOR isn't a completely black box operation, the driver should know that he/she isn't likely to get where they're going before the timer "dings." Any driver that runs out of time in the middle of a busy expressway (or a company that allows them to do so) needs some time management training.
Mind you, that doesn't mean I agree with the whole concept. I'm sure that it's a small minority of abusers that brought the whole thing down on the industry. I'd bet that the majority of truckers live by the rules.
But it does mean that perhaps the trucking industry needs to rethink things a bit.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Tree with OTR you can not tell when when some idiot in front of you takes out someone else your stuck in traffic for hours Burning your Clock for hours next thing you know BANG your on your 14 and your truck is shur off. Do not laugh it will happen. Back in 99 when we could stopour clock I spent 10 hours in traffic when an accident shut down the Interstate in NV. Well with the Current HOS I would have run out of HOS since I had been running for 6 hours for 8 hours on my clock. Now with an EBOR I would not have been able to MOVE my truck and alot of drivers behind me would have been in the same boat.
Also Tree if a Dispatcher was so good at keep his territory so fluid then why do Train crews still run out of HOURS and need to be Dogcaught. The RR industry is no where close to what the Trucking Industry is like. You need to remember this we deal with traffic and distances that would make every Yardmaster PUKE. Try blindsiding into a cave in KC area that is barely wider that the trailer been there Done that.
Anything that disables a piece of transportation equipment for a statutory hours of service issue .... should permanently disable the individual(s) that thought it was a idea worth enacting into law.
While the law should not be violated - Public Safety in certain circumstances REQUIRE that the law be violated.
Remember this is the Same Goverment that wants to force OD a major LTLcarrier to return a Driver with a Major Alcohol Problem having gone thru Rehab 3 times now. Old Dominon foun him an Office Job he Sued using the EEOC for his Driving job and the EEOC ruled that OD was DISCRIMINATING against him. Now under FMCSA which OD is required to OBEY you get ONE chance to clean up NOT 2 however OD went above to find him a Non-Driving job. Just remember that the Goverment can not e ven figure out which rules apply for OTR drivers.
Now if OD does do this and returns this driver to Driving and he shows up drunk and KILLS people who gets SUED sure as hell not the GOVERMENT that ordered him back to Driving it is OD only.
Ed - I don't disagree with you at all.
I would opine, however, that in the vast majority of cases, it should be possible to at least find "safe haven" where one can park so as not to be tying up the Dan Ryan at 5pm. If it's happening on a regular basis, then something is wrong with the scheduling (which is no doubt an issue in and of itself).
I would agree that there should be a method for incorporating "rest," much as the railroads do, and as may well be appropriate if dealing with unforeseen circumstances or known delays. I would also agree that there should be a way to "forestall" a shutdown if necessary. In both cases, though, I feel that such actions should be documented and subject to audit - perhaps even by the feds (at least create a reporting requirement). If a driver has to "forestall" on a daily basis, something ain't right.
As to RR dispatchers - they may be chasing their tails trying to keep things fluid and dealing with crews that are "dying" on the road, but at least they are keeping track of it and, I believe, finding a home for a train whose crew is going dead on hours with no relief in sight besides on a busy mainline.
Tree I have had times when I would go to Unload at Jewl in Melrose Park off of Manheim Rd at 7 AM get out of there at 12 BTW I had to Leave Bloomington IL since there was no parking in the area so I am out already 2 hours before I get to Jewel so no sitting at 7 gone. Now move to reload 30 mins away. They take 5 hours and it can easily in Chicago. I have 1.5 hours left to get out of Chicago IN Rush hour and I am heading EAST. I am Praying I can get to Gary before my 14 hour clock Dies. Accident on the Ryan I am SCREWED. Hit my 14 and the EBOR shuts me DOWN where I stand.
Under the old system all that waiting time was OFF DUTY and the clock was Stopped and I would not have burned up the time I get paid for driving with NON paid for Waiting time.
edbenton Also Tree if a Dispatcher was so good at keep his territory so fluid then why do Train crews still run out of HOURS and need to be Dogcaught. The RR industry is no where close to what the Trucking Industry is like. You need to remember this we deal with traffic and distances that would make every Yardmaster PUKE. Try blindsiding into a cave in KC area that is barely wider that the trailer been there Done that.
ED: Having driven OTR I agree with you completely. A further point that has not been made. If there is a national or regional emergency that requires persons to ignore HOS rules what will happen if EBORs start shutting down? we certainly DO NOT need some truck to block an evacuation route. At least the FRA or someone in government can tell the RRs to ignore HOS and get the trains out of "dodge" Its the old law of unintended consequences.
BaltACD Anything that disables a piece of transportation equipment for a statutory hours of service issue .... should permanently disable the individual(s) that thought it was a idea worth enacting into law.
Johnny
Sorry, but it sounds like you guys want it both ways...you want train crews to keep on rocking along if stopping on the hours of service inconveniences the public or the carrier, but then you turn around and condemn the industry for not having adequate rest times for crews, which causes fatigue related accidents....
And no, the FRA cannot order any crew to violate the hours of service except in two very special circumstances...
One is if leaving the train where it is at when the HOS is reached presents a clear and present and obvious danger to the public, such as having every crossing in a small town blocked, and the second is if stopping the train leaves a car with hazmat such as chlorine, ammonia or such located under a bridge used by the public...
The second is the train is operating under the auspices of the US military and is in service during a national emergency.
It the very rare occurrence when a train crew hits the HOS in such a situation as above, we and the dispatcher know when we are close to that, and we plan accordingly.
23 17 46 11
edblysard Sorry, but it sounds like you guys want it both ways...you want train crews to keep on rocking along if stopping on the hours of service inconveniences the public or the carrier, but then you turn around and condemn the industry for not having adequate rest times for crews, which causes fatigue related accidents.... And no, the FRA cannot order any crew to violate the hours of service except in two very special circumstances... One is if leaving the train where it is at when the HOS is reached presents a clear and present and obvious danger to the public, such as having every crossing in a small town blocked, and the second is if stopping the train leaves a car with hazmat such as chlorine, ammonia or such located under a bridge used by the public... The second is the train is operating under the auspices of the US military and is in service during a national emergency. It the very rare occurrence when a train crew hits the HOS in such a situation as above, we and the dispatcher know when we are close to that, and we plan accordingly.
Russell
Why do these discussions ALWAYS have to degrade into discussions on OTR trucking? this is trains.com isn't it?
Having said that, I think I'd rather walk away from the job then go from Bloomington->Melrose Park->Gary.
On the one hand, I'm pretty sure it's absolutely impossible to make that trip in 14 hours given the unload time and on the other hand, I wouldn't want to go those places if I had 30 hours, no traffic and was getting paid a million bucks. I mean Gah, Proviso yard is the most scenic thing in Melrose Park and it's a frickin railyard. And I mean for non-train fans it's the most scenic.
I like to call Melrose Park the ugly speedbump between River Forest and Elmhurst. Or, the ugly speedbump between LaGrange and O'hare. Take your pick.
Well, OK, I'd take the million bucks.
On topic. Seeing as Trains just ran an article on PTC. It looked to me like there could potentially be many benefits to PTC from a dispatching perspective. And of course, PTC is just the latest version of in Cab signalling and ATS. Which have existed and as this thread shows, some would prefer.
Being able to judge how effective this technology will be is going to be extremely subjective, but again, a look at the systems that have existed should tell yo what you need to know.
edbentonUnder the old system all that waiting time was OFF DUTY and the clock was Stopped and I would not have burned up the time I get paid for driving with NON paid for Waiting time.
Because of the potential for abuse (and we all know that it will be attempted), I do maintain that such times should be logged and audited.
Another potential issue would be if someone else were to need to move a truck if the driver is unavailable (ie, across the street catching lunch, and assuming that said person is authorized to move the truck in the first place). That time shouldn't be held against the driver in any way, shape, or form.
I should think that it would be fairly easy to require a driver to log in to the device at the beginning of HOS, and log off, with an appropriate code (rest, loading, etc), when ending HOS time. The computer can then figure out whether the driver gets x more hours on the clock, or even deserves a reset.
Then again, how does such a system handle team drivers? I know there are teams, some involving husband/wife pairs, which allow a truck to keep moving almost constantly.
Talk to Groups such as PATT CRASH and the ABA on why when the USDOT and FMCSA rewrote the HOS for the 3rd time in less than 10 years they took away the abilty to Stop the Clock from drivers. Why did they they wanted all drivers to have to sleep for 10 hours ONLY and wanted us to be forced to get REST not be able to do Laundry eat and other things we used to be able to do in the Truckstop Now when a Trucker is in the Truckstop he is NOT considered rested til he has had 10 hours in the Sleeperberth.
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