I was just perusing Amtrak's feasibility study for the Quad Cities - Iowa City segment. At a 79mph build out, it's operating close to covering expenses and the projected ridership is respectable. Now sometimes projected ridership is a "happy number", but even more frequently once the service is instituted, the projections are quickly surpassed. Amtrak is projecting using 2-3 car trains to Iowa City for starters.
In another document I ran across the number of riders from Osceola, IA. About 14,000/year. 2 trains a day at less than optimal times. That's almost 20 per train. But Osceola isn't that big and you really have to want to take the train to drive down there from Des Moines or Ames (I've done that for myself and others). So 20 per train isn't bad for a city with a population of just under 5,000. Now translate that to a train going to a real metro area and the number goes way up…
dakotafredYes, you gave passenger numbers for Champaign, Macomb, Quincy and Galesburg, but no breakout for college students. (I'm sure there is no such stat.)
Good point, Fred.
Amtrak may have those demographics or should if they have any concept of marketing. In any case they are not public. But who do you actually think boards the trains? Just townies? And unlike when we were in college, many students return to there home turf (or head to the big city) on many weekends, not just at break time. And Carbondale, IL, home of SIU, had 106,000 boardings/alightings on the four daily trains in 2012. Again, around the extended weekends, many students are part of that 106K. It's not just townies who ride the train.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
schlimm dakotafred No doubt, because "the environment" is (a) one of the rallying cries of college/university communities and (b) passenger trains are supposedly good for it. Actual ridership would likely be something else. Iowa is lousy with universities and colleges -- private and public -- from border to border. You appear to be hostile to the possibility that college students would patronize passenger trains, if the services were properly targeted. Actual statistics have been given on this thread that show how that has worked very well in downstate Illinois.
dakotafred No doubt, because "the environment" is (a) one of the rallying cries of college/university communities and (b) passenger trains are supposedly good for it. Actual ridership would likely be something else. Iowa is lousy with universities and colleges -- private and public -- from border to border.
No doubt, because "the environment" is (a) one of the rallying cries of college/university communities and (b) passenger trains are supposedly good for it.
Actual ridership would likely be something else.
Iowa is lousy with universities and colleges -- private and public -- from border to border.
You appear to be hostile to the possibility that college students would patronize passenger trains, if the services were properly targeted. Actual statistics have been given on this thread that show how that has worked very well in downstate Illinois.
I think you are correct: local and grant, not state funding. Perhaps given Dubique's close ties to the Illinois economy, the rest of the state of Iowa lets them 'go fish' for dollars?
I've seen where there has been some grant money and local funds come in towards the station in Dubuque. Just haven't seen Iowa DOT or other Iowa state funding. But I may be missing something.
Iowa did come up with some of the money needed for a Dubuque station. The most recent hold-up for the Blackhawk service has been from the host railroad, CN/IC.
dakotafred Iowa is lousy with universities and colleges -- private and public -- from border to border. Dubuque itself has several -- perhaps the reason Illinois is willing to pay for jumping the river there but not at Davenport? (Or is it only that a train terminating at East Dubuque, Ill., would be just too silly?)
Iowa is lousy with universities and colleges -- private and public -- from border to border. Dubuque itself has several -- perhaps the reason Illinois is willing to pay for jumping the river there but not at Davenport? (Or is it only that a train terminating at East Dubuque, Ill., would be just too silly?)
Victrola1 The University of Illinois at Champaign/Urbana, Southern Illinois University at Carbonale, and Western Illinois university at Macomb all have passenger rail..A large number of students at the University of Iowa hail from the Chicago Metro area. There is agitation to extend proposed passenger rail from Moline to the Iowa River at Iowa City. The state of Illinois also plods along with plans for passenger rail service to Dububue. If a large enough number of students from the Chicago metro area attended the University of Nothern Iowa, would there be agitation to extend a reborn Land 'O Corn from the Mississippi to the Cedar River in Cedar Falls?
The University of Illinois at Champaign/Urbana, Southern Illinois University at Carbonale, and Western Illinois university at Macomb all have passenger rail..A large number of students at the University of Iowa hail from the Chicago Metro area. There is agitation to extend proposed passenger rail from Moline to the Iowa River at Iowa City.
The state of Illinois also plods along with plans for passenger rail service to Dububue. If a large enough number of students from the Chicago metro area attended the University of Nothern Iowa, would there be agitation to extend a reborn Land 'O Corn from the Mississippi to the Cedar River in Cedar Falls?
Somewhat qualified speculation as I don't have insight into what the Illinois DOT really (or the governor's office or anyone else involved in planning this) thinks. So far the rail connections to U of Illinois at Champaign/Urbana, Southern Ill. U. at Carbondale, Western Ill U at Macomb and Illinois State at Bloomington/Normal seem more happy coincidence than the result of a plan to connect all the universities with rail. If that was the case, NIU at DeKalb would have passenger rail at their doorstep and not ending over in the next county.
At the same time, there has been talk of East-West passenger rail that would connect the universities from Quad Cities through Champaign.
The coming passenger service to Dubuque I think is more to benefit the northwest corner of Illinois than anything. It may or may not make it across the river into Iowa ever so slightly.
A revived passenger line west of Dubuque, IA to Cedar Falls would be nice, but I don't see that happening until Des Moines gets passenger rail (and is excited about it). Independence, Manchester and Dyersville are not large enough in and of themselves to fill a train. From an Iowa perspective, regional/local passenger service Cedar Falls/Waterloo - Vinton - Cedar Rapids - Iowa City would be much more interesting. There's plenty of commuting going on in the I-380 corridor.
Just my 3 cents…
I dunno.... I'm one state west of Iowa. If someone uses the word "Uni", we'd most likely think of a guy with one, big, bushy eyebrow.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
schlimm Uni is an almost worldwide abbreviation for a university. I am quite aware of UNI (University of Northern Iowa. I said Uni Iowa, different matter.
Uni is an almost worldwide abbreviation for a university. I am quite aware of UNI (University of Northern Iowa. I said Uni Iowa, different matter.
Interesting. I have seen "U" and "UNIV."/"Univ." as the abbreviation for University, but I do not remember ever seeing just "Uni"... At least not in my admittedly sieve of a memory!
So I Googled, "What is the abbreviation for University".
I found several answers hither and yon and all indicate that "Uni." is U.K. usage and "Univ." is American usage.
Since I am an American (no brag, just fact) and we are discussing Iowa, (an American subject - albeit on an international forum) and since the internet is notorious for lacking in respect for names, acronyms and abbreviations by using lower case letters for nearly everything and people generally being lazy about hitting the shift key or proof-reading their internet missives, I will tend toward seeing "Uni" as being somewhat suspect as to meaning and will probably assume that it means the most common local usage, thus "Uni" was seen as University of Northern Iowa. The apparent redundant usage of "Iowa" after the letters should have kicked my brain in the shins, given that you, (unlike me,) don't tend to make such mistakes in your missives here.
Of course, if you had placed a period (".") after the three letters, as in, "Uni. Iowa", I might have seen the letters as an abbreviation for University, instead of a simple typo of not holding down the shift key long enough. I also note that my spell checker flags the three letters as misspelled if I don't put the period after it, so even Microsoft thinks it should have a period after it to be a valid abbreviation (but that might not be much of an endorsement based on what people think of Microsoft!).
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
Schlimm,
You are absolutely right. I knew that. I stand corrected.
CJtrainguy Iowa and Illinois get confusing when it comes to universities. UNI in Iowa is University of Northern Iowa at Cedar Falls. UNI in Illinois is University of Northern Illinois at DeKalb.
Iowa and Illinois get confusing when it comes to universities.
UNI in Iowa is University of Northern Iowa at Cedar Falls.
UNI in Illinois is University of Northern Illinois at DeKalb.
Northern Illinois University at DeKalb is fortunately NIU.
All reminds me of T-shirts sold at my alma mater back in the day proclaiming: University of Iowa, Idaho City, Ohio. That wasn't all that far from some people's perception of the geography. But I digress
Sorry, but "UNI" is the University of Northern Iowa, which is in Cedar Falls. U of I is the University of Iowa and is in Iowa City.
If we cud jus stp usg abrvs w'd b a lt bttr off.
When the flapping lips sportcasters talk about UNI they often say it such that it sounds like they are saying "You and I" as in, "U N I lost the game." And I didn't even know I was playing!
dakotafredC'mon, Schlimm, we're talking Iowa City and the University of Iowa ("U of I"), not Urbana.
OK, I misinterpreted you. Not the first time. At least Indiana is IU. But my points and statistics are still quite relevant to to Uni Iowa situation.
A train running Omaha to Chicago on a day schedule could attract many students, especially if the stops at tiny towns enroute were not part of the plan and college towns are served.. The Illini trains should eliminate several stops berween CHA and CHI. Another IDOT train service runs to Quincy and Macomb, serving WIU and Knox. Total passenger count is 224,000. Macomb has boardings/alightings of 75,000, Quincy 49,372 and galesburg (this service only) another 55,000.
CJtrainguy University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign: 44,500 students University of Iowa at Iowa City: 31,000 students. Both referred to as U of I, so be careful of the context.
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign: 44,500 students
University of Iowa at Iowa City: 31,000 students.
Both referred to as U of I, so be careful of the context.
Be careful of the context, yourself (you and Schlimm). Again, the subject was -- to anybody paying attention -- Iowa City.
CJtrainguy dakotafred First, take note that you have, on your own, extended the experiment all the way to Omaha (and maybe Lincoln). … The subject under discussion is Iowa City-Chicago. The objections become more punishing as you move west. Name me a traveler with reasonable business to transact who would choose the train between Omaha and Chicago. … Iowa Republicans are too canny to sign that blank check. They don't deserve to be criticized by the same people who don't like the CZ and other LD trains. I like those LD trains well and have always stood up for them. But they are a national choice, bankrolled with national dollars, serving a national purpose. I don't see the same rationale for the "Corn Belt Rocket." I didn't "on my own extend the experiment": The Iowa DOT is studying the entire corridor across Iowa, having landed on the IAIS as the logical alignment. Read the reports on the IDOT website. Illinois is committed to Chicago-Quad Cities. The first step in Iowa was to extend the passenger service to Iowa City, to better server Eastern Iowa. The next step is to extend to Des Moines. The next step is to extend to Omaha/Council Bluffs. All outlined at the IDOT website. The decision makers in Des Moines are well aware of those stages and maybe that affects the opposition to the Iowa City segment, maybe not. I will make no further comments about Iowa Republicans and their alleged canniness. History will bear out who was canny and who was not when we look back some years from now. I fully understand that you don't see a purpose for passenger service in Iowa. Again, lots of people do, including many in the business community in Eastern Iowa. Apparently they do believe that passenger rail will be valuable in attracting new companies to the area/getting existing ones to expand. Probably means they don't think the only people who will ride the trains are the elderly, infirm, and Chicago latter day Al Capones.
dakotafred First, take note that you have, on your own, extended the experiment all the way to Omaha (and maybe Lincoln). … The subject under discussion is Iowa City-Chicago. The objections become more punishing as you move west. Name me a traveler with reasonable business to transact who would choose the train between Omaha and Chicago. … Iowa Republicans are too canny to sign that blank check. They don't deserve to be criticized by the same people who don't like the CZ and other LD trains. I like those LD trains well and have always stood up for them. But they are a national choice, bankrolled with national dollars, serving a national purpose. I don't see the same rationale for the "Corn Belt Rocket."
First, take note that you have, on your own, extended the experiment all the way to Omaha (and maybe Lincoln). …
The subject under discussion is Iowa City-Chicago. The objections become more punishing as you move west. Name me a traveler with reasonable business to transact who would choose the train between Omaha and Chicago.
…
Iowa Republicans are too canny to sign that blank check. They don't deserve to be criticized by the same people who don't like the CZ and other LD trains.
I like those LD trains well and have always stood up for them. But they are a national choice, bankrolled with national dollars, serving a national purpose. I don't see the same rationale for the "Corn Belt Rocket."
I didn't "on my own extend the experiment": The Iowa DOT is studying the entire corridor across Iowa, having landed on the IAIS as the logical alignment. Read the reports on the IDOT website.
Illinois is committed to Chicago-Quad Cities. The first step in Iowa was to extend the passenger service to Iowa City, to better server Eastern Iowa. The next step is to extend to Des Moines. The next step is to extend to Omaha/Council Bluffs. All outlined at the IDOT website. The decision makers in Des Moines are well aware of those stages and maybe that affects the opposition to the Iowa City segment, maybe not.
I will make no further comments about Iowa Republicans and their alleged canniness. History will bear out who was canny and who was not when we look back some years from now.
I fully understand that you don't see a purpose for passenger service in Iowa. Again, lots of people do, including many in the business community in Eastern Iowa. Apparently they do believe that passenger rail will be valuable in attracting new companies to the area/getting existing ones to expand. Probably means they don't think the only people who will ride the trains are the elderly, infirm, and Chicago latter day Al Capones.
I know all about the Iowa DOT dream sheet, supported by an Omaha consultant, Mark Hemphill, who would have laughed it off the pages of Trains, when he was getting paid by Kalmbach instead of by his Omaha outfit. The consultant also took a serious look at the old Illinois Central route!
The fact is, we're talking Moline-Iowa City, to start. We've got to swallow that camel before we can move on to more ridiculous yet.
Yes, Iowa is smaller, but not exactly podunkville. It can definitely contribute to the success of passenger service to Iowa City.
dakotafred People who see Chicago college students as a mainstay are kidding themselves. These are like other U of I students, going home at Christmas and spring break. Ask the old Rock Island railroad how well that fueled the original Rockets. First you suggested UI students only go home at Christmas and breaks. The you reveal you were at Urbana in the 60's when no one you knew (but apparently others) had cars. I was there in the 1960's, too, sometimes with a car, other times not. Then as now, parking is the problem. And back then, students went up to Chicago mostly at break time.
People who see Chicago college students as a mainstay are kidding themselves. These are like other U of I students, going home at Christmas and spring break. Ask the old Rock Island railroad how well that fueled the original Rockets.
First you suggested UI students only go home at Christmas and breaks. The you reveal you were at Urbana in the 60's when no one you knew (but apparently others) had cars. I was there in the 1960's, too, sometimes with a car, other times not. Then as now, parking is the problem. And back then, students went up to Chicago mostly at break time.
C'mon, Schlimm, we're talking Iowa City and the University of Iowa ("U of I"), not Urbana.
CJtrainguy dakotafred I find it ironic that some of the same posters -- I do not include you -- who regularly beat up on LD passenger as an economic loser are so keen to inflict such an unpromising "corridor" on Iowans. What's unpromising about a corridor (Lincoln-)Omaha-Des Moines-Iowa City-Quad Cities-Chicago? The population is there. The traffic is there. The business community wants it — because they see the value improved communications will have for the area. The passenger service itself may require an operating subsidy, but its presence will have a positive effect on the communities, ultimately bringing a net gain for Iowa. For that matter, the California Zephyr goes through southern Iowa 2x daily, at less than optimal times. Even so, go talk to the mayors and leaders in the communities where it stops and see if they want to get rid of the train. The do not, because they recognize the value it does bring to their communities.
dakotafred I find it ironic that some of the same posters -- I do not include you -- who regularly beat up on LD passenger as an economic loser are so keen to inflict such an unpromising "corridor" on Iowans.
I find it ironic that some of the same posters -- I do not include you -- who regularly beat up on LD passenger as an economic loser are so keen to inflict such an unpromising "corridor" on Iowans.
What's unpromising about a corridor (Lincoln-)Omaha-Des Moines-Iowa City-Quad Cities-Chicago? The population is there. The traffic is there. The business community wants it — because they see the value improved communications will have for the area. The passenger service itself may require an operating subsidy, but its presence will have a positive effect on the communities, ultimately bringing a net gain for Iowa.
For that matter, the California Zephyr goes through southern Iowa 2x daily, at less than optimal times. Even so, go talk to the mayors and leaders in the communities where it stops and see if they want to get rid of the train. The do not, because they recognize the value it does bring to their communities.
What's unpromising?
First, take note that you have, on your own, extended the experiment all the way to Omaha (and maybe Lincoln). God, there are a lot of empty miles between Iowa City and Omaha, interrupted by only Des Moines. SLOW miles -- even after you've upgraded the Iowa Interstate, at great expense, to a top speed of 79 mph.
You'd get, for the most part, the same retired people and other vacationers who ride LD trains like the California Zephyr, so out of favor with many posters.
dakotafredPeople who see Chicago college students as a mainstay are kidding themselves. These are like other U of I students, going home at Christmas and spring break. Ask the old Rock Island railroad how well that fueled the original Rockets.
50 years later. Students go to Chicago many weekends, sometimes with cars, sometimes by bus and some by train. The Illini/Saluki service runs two trains each way daily, Carbondale (SIU)-Chicago. In 2012, there were 156,158 boardings/alightings at the Champaign station for those 4 trains (not counting the City of New Orleans. That is 428 people per day. Most (88%) of those passengers are riding to Chicago or Homewood, and not many are elderly and/or trainfans. Fridays and Sundays the numbers are higher. The numbers would be higher if there were an early/midafternoon Champaign departure.
You are right, I am not a supporter of LD service as currently setup because most of the trains serve so few. Champaign alone has 40-50% as many riders as many LD trains have in an entire year. try looking at the link blue streak posted to NARP staistics. It is very revealing. The key to serving the public is convenience and speed. If Omaha to Chicago had a train running at a convenient time, serving Iowa population centers on the way, rather than southern Iowa as the CZ does, it could also have high ridership numbers.
Los Angeles Rams Guy DakotaFred - You need to stop living in the 1950's and step into today's real world. Too many people back in my home state of Iowa haven't yet.
DakotaFred - You need to stop living in the 1950's and step into today's real world. Too many people back in my home state of Iowa haven't yet.
Yah, LA, but as long as we're updating, don't forget Megabus, which takes a real interest in Iowa City to Chicago and has that run covered like a blanket. (Check out their website.)
Another big change from the '60s, when I was at U of I: student cars. I had many Chicago friends in those days, not one of whom had "wheels". Now, if they're like college students everywhere else, many will have those -- with which to furnish rides to their carless friends as well as themselves.
I realize somebody would ride a train between Iowa City and Chicago ... little old ladies, railroad nuts like ourselves. But why should anybody else -- particularly since the accommodations will bear more resemblance to a bus than a passenger train?
dakotafred You out-of-state crybabies need to listen to yourselves. $79 million to extend passenger rail 58 miles from Moline to Iowa City? Before the annual subsidy -- conservatively put at $3 million -- kicks in? For the greater good of how many Iowa taxpayers? Iowa City already has interstate, bus and (25 miles away) air. The Rocket wouldn't likely stop at any of the small communities between I.C. and Davenport. For Davenport-area residents, the train would be available just across the river. Sure, a few people might dribble down to the station from Cedar Rapids, but otherwise? People who see Chicago college students as a mainstay are kidding themselves. These are like other U of I students, going home at Christmas and spring break. Ask the old Rock Island railroad how well that fueled the original Rockets.
You out-of-state crybabies need to listen to yourselves. $79 million to extend passenger rail 58 miles from Moline to Iowa City? Before the annual subsidy -- conservatively put at $3 million -- kicks in?
For the greater good of how many Iowa taxpayers?
Iowa City already has interstate, bus and (25 miles away) air. The Rocket wouldn't likely stop at any of the small communities between I.C. and Davenport. For Davenport-area residents, the train would be available just across the river.
Sure, a few people might dribble down to the station from Cedar Rapids, but otherwise?
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