CSX had an interesting line running from New Buffalo to Lacrosse, In. Back in the 70's I knew the B&O operator at Wellsboro adn would spend time with him. There was a local which came down from New Buffalo, but do not recall the destination for the train. I have a photo on my office wall of the conductor picking up orders at Wellsboro.
That line of course was more known as the swing point for the C&O out of Cincinnati to reach the B&O for the final sprint to Chicago (also handled the Amtrak's Cardinal). If I recall, C&O/B&O operated 3 or 4 trains daily each way on that line, plus the Amtrak and local and it was a nice little operation. Today, CSX runs a pair of Cincy - Chicago trains - Q500/Q501, running those up the old B&O to Deshler then west on the mainline.
I ran across a website the other night that listed the C&O freights running on the Grand Rapids sub. My how that business has dropped off. There were 3 or 4 each way plus the SOO/CP trains. That was a pretty busy stretch of single track.
What I realize while typing this, is how many "boxcar" freight trains have disappeared over the years on certain lines. C&O used to run 3-4 each way between Chicago and Cincy and Michigan...now down to only 1 each way in both directions. Not too hard to figure out...we dont make much stuff in USA anymore.
Ed
Coal trains could be two a day then not any for a couple of days. Flow is rather inconsistent.
D700, the local from GRP only goes to Livingston/Bridgeman, the location of a big sand operation. It goes to the siding at Sawyer, the first one north of NB, to service a steel customer a few times a month.
New Buffalo used to be a major player in classifing Chicago traffic. Most of that traffic has either dried up to the changes in automotive or by routing the western traffic to Salem, Ill or St. Louis for interchange, It goes to Toledo, then Indy on westward. More revenue for CSX cause they hold the car for a longer distance. New Buff used to send a train of Lincolns every nite to the NKP interchange at Belfast on their Indy/MC line. Both lines gone for the most part. 60 or 70 racks of Continentals and a couple of parts cars came from the Ford Wixom plant every day. All gone. Worked the job many times in the 70's.
Dan in Rockford
The yard struck me as fairly large. It was hard to access, so I could not tell exactly. But, it had to be at least 15 tracks. There were some double box cars parked at one end of it, and some tank cars parked on the opposite end.
The museum was still there--but not much of a museum. I should not knock it, as someone obviously put a lot of work into it. But, it struck me as tired, so to speak.
Gabe
P.S. The NS night local was the return trip--the starting trip might have been in the morning.
I didnt realize NS ran at night thru there, a couple of years ago that local would head east thru Porter around 9am. Perhaps they changed times.
How big is the CSX yard? I found an old CSX track chart for that line online last night and it showed about 15 tracks. There was a museum there at one time, was it still there?Ed
MP173 Was the big coaling tower still there?Did you eat at Casey's? NS runs a local nearly daily out of Burns Harbor on the line. Usually EB in the AM and returns later. Ed
Was the big coaling tower still there?Did you eat at Casey's?
NS runs a local nearly daily out of Burns Harbor on the line. Usually EB in the AM and returns later.
Yes, and yes. Both were interesting--the coal tower still had the Chesee Logo affixed to it.
The NS local was pretty consistent--9:30 p.m. south bound every night. One of the hotels has a 5th story roof where you can see the lake and the rail line pretty well. The local was consistently a bunch of steel coil cars with a few tankers mixed in. One of them was 39 cars though--which surprised me. I would also be willing to bet that it was doing at least 55mph each time it went through town and I would not be surprised by 65mph. She was moving.
I vacationed in New Buffalo this year, and the Condo I rented was pretty close to this line. In the six days I was there, I took three hour walks near the tracks daily and I only saw one coal train. It was quite notable, as they parked it in the siding at New Buffalo for approximately 30 hours--which I found kind of weird. I did not see a single freight train or a local on the CSX line the entire time I was there outside of the coal train. But, maybe I was at the lake or pool too much. Nonetheless, I certainly spent a lot of time near the line and there was a dearth of freight action. I did manage to see several Amtrak trains on the line. I figured all of the new signals--which were notable--were part of stimulus money for Amtrak.
Strangely, I saw more freight trains on the NS line (which I thought was virtually all Amtrak). It was notable how fast NS ran its freight trains through town.
New Buffalo is a funny place. Very small town, and it has two, separate, Amtrak lines that go through it.
There is a fairly impressive yard on the CSX line you guys are talking about. Do they use it for anything anymore?
Glad to hear things are moving along on the Grand Rapids sub. I noticed the signal replacement a couple of years ago near Porter and wondered about that. From my point of view, the track looks pretty good out our way, of course I do not have to travel on it.
Currently they run a 334/335 pair from Chicago thru GR. Last winter they sent an intermodal pair to Detroit, but with North Baltimore in place seems to be ancient history.
How frequently does the coal trains run (daily? every other day?)? I know that is hard to peg, but just an approximation would be good.
Just returned from a day in Chicago. Not much better in a car...tho the food is great.
Did the Barr Yard runs up until 1999. Went to the orientation for the Conrail merger for 4 days in Chicago for the new routes we would use and then I went into Yard service here in Wyoming never to return. I used to think Chitown was neat and all the yards and different routes but no more. Hope I never have to see any of it again. Tired of sitting in motels for way too many hours and same with sidings too. Now its a regular job and go home 5 days a week. I like that much better.
Sad to see/say but I think managment is proud of the fact that they got rid of the CP stuff. I wish CP had purchased the Michigan Division but c'est la vie...
We have many coal trains to West Olive on the GRP/Chicago sub along with a manifest and a local. On the east we have a lot of grain, a manifest each way and locals. CSX is dumping millions into the signals and roadbed too. We are curious, with their hiring binge, as to whats up. Hard to say and speculation is just that. Why ask why?
Dano
Those were great discussions back in the day. No doubt you did ruffle some feathers.
I havent read the Trains article yet, but am looking forward to it. I monitor the CSX on my scanner and they seem pretty busy these days (old B&O line in NW Indiana). Those intermodal trains are a running hot and heavy and long (Q004-06 just cleared the scanner with 10,000 ft of train).
Back in the day, your railroad was handling the CP traffic. Kinda surprized CSX held on to the line, but it seems there is a coal train that runs on that line from time to time plus a regular freight each way.
Well, it is good to have you back. Just to check, I went to the CSX message board on Yahoo this afternoon...nothing but financial porn trying to convince people to buy stocks.
One more thing...did you ever run to Chicago out of your terminal? I might have ran into you at Porter about 15 years ago.
Yes its the one and the same SOB as used to post on Yahoo! Finance. CSX managment wasn't too happy with Das Doktor or so I was told and I felt that my 'critque's' were unwelcome so TIME TO QUIT. Didn't do any good anyway.
The CSX story in this months TRAINS ...does not reflect the feelings of the employees in almost every way. Notice the "the parking lot is empty" quote and how proud they are of that. Take the jobs and sell the proverbial 5$ apple. WHy sell a bushel when you can sell one apple?
I'd rather talk about the old days when men were men so enough of this...looking forward to retirement in 4 years and 5 days...not that I'm counting. Then I can wander northern Indiana again and drink beer at Milford Jct and leave the empties for the B&O boys.
Dan in Michigan/Doktor No:Are you by chance the same "Doc" which used to frequent the CSX Yahoo Finance discussions years ago?
If so, glad to see you around. Your discussions about the industry were very interesting.
The EL crossed old US 31 on the north edge of Rochester. Their station was just west of this crossing and probably seven to eight blocks north of downtown. New US 31 bypassed Rochester to the west of town and crossed the EL by with an overpass. It's been several years since I've been through Rochester on old 31, but as I recall, the EL tracks still ran west of the ex-NKP tracks to a grain operation west of the EL station location. By using the ex-NKP line north to Argos, a rail connection has been maintained to the NS.
Garen Bushong
We took a 'busmans holiday' (i am a csx conductor and I went with an engineer friend) a few years ago down along Indiana 15 looking for the Erie concrete triple bridge near Laketon. Drove right by it...it was gone! Noticed the signal bridge to the east where the double track started was still in place in the middle of a corn field. The high line westward was stil intact for the most part. Line wires were still there, ballast and cinders too. Wandered over towards Huntington and viewed what was left of the yards and terminal...NOTHING. I noticed in the ...what was it Hilton photo website?.. a pic of the Huntington depot door. It had a very nice scarab beetle etched in it. I wonder if that door still exisists? Very nice it was indeed.
As for the Erie remaining in place and running as a viable concern? Probably not. No traffic left. While intermodal seems to be king and profit margins have increased the other traffic still pays the bills and there was no local traffic to speak of other then the occasional farm town/ elevator here and there and they have consolidated into mega elevators in a few places. The steel traffic in NE Ohio was wiped out years ago. Boxcar traffic to the northeast was too.
Then again a connection to the Kankakee Belt for a route AROUND Chicago for intermodals...that may have had some potential. CN sees it in The J. Heck I tried to get csx managers to listen about that years ago but they thought I was just a conductor what do I know? C'est la vie.
Another Indiana line I miss is the C&O from Cinci. Our line thru Michigan looks a lot like that line did in archtecture etc. Sad to see that tore up too.
Dan in Michigan
CSSHEGEWISCH John G. Kneiling once proposed in one of his columns an intermodal-only road between Chicago and New York/Boston comprised of EL, D&H and B&M.
John G. Kneiling once proposed in one of his columns an intermodal-only road between Chicago and New York/Boston comprised of EL, D&H and B&M.
IIRC, he also proposed that the Milwaukee Road shuck its common-carrier obligations (like EL) and become EL's connection to the West Coast for intermodal.
Murphy Siding I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn last night, but I have been to Indiana....once. When we crossed the state line, and saw the "welcome to Indiana...." sign, my then girlfriend, now my wife, turned to me and said "What's a hoser"?
I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn last night, but I have been to Indiana....once. When we crossed the state line, and saw the "welcome to Indiana...." sign, my then girlfriend, now my wife, turned to me and said "What's a hoser"?
Johnny
rrnut282 oops, you're right, it is East, maybe I was supposed to face South for a Northbound Moose. I guess I can't tell the difference between 20 year old and 40 year old track, either.
oops, you're right, it is East, maybe I was supposed to face South for a Northbound Moose.
I guess I can't tell the difference between 20 year old and 40 year old track, either.
I only know that because sometime in the summer of 1986, I walked all around the Newton Tower area. Part of the tower was still standing then, although very derelict, but the rail was gone. I think one of the home signal masts was still standing, too, but I'd have to hunt up the handful of pictures I took that day to see how good my memory is.
Actually, Laketon is east of Rochester, Laketon is south of Warsaw, near North Manchester, IN. Also, the track was not left in place .but taken up and later relaid sometime in the last 15-20 years.
Don: I respect your reply...you have been "on the scene" and obviously have much more knowledge than I do. It just seems that it would have been difficult for EL, et al. to have pulled this off. How much intermodal was moving back in the early/mid 70's? That was prior to the double stack explosion. I dont recall that the "piggyback" business was huge then, more freight moved via boxcar, it seemed. It was kinda rare for meto get photos of pigs back then. Granted PC was a mess, but EL wasnt much better, was it?
ed
tabeckett If my aging brain cells recall, it passed under US 31 just north of IN 14. There was a long(4 mile) stretch of double track the last time I was there around 2000 that was being used to access a grain elevator. I'm not sure that is still in service. It was odd, because it gave the appearance of being a main route that had suffered from lack of maintenance, which, of course, it was. I have followed other parts of the line across Indiana, mostly in the last 10 years. so at least 20 years(Erie Western ran there for a few years in the late 70's) after most of it was abandoned. It's amazing how much of what had been for the most part a double track line has been almost completely retaken by nature, where it has not been plowed under by farmers. There are some places you really have to look to see the right of way.
If my aging brain cells recall, it passed under US 31 just north of IN 14. There was a long(4 mile) stretch of double track the last time I was there around 2000 that was being used to access a grain elevator. I'm not sure that is still in service. It was odd, because it gave the appearance of being a main route that had suffered from lack of maintenance, which, of course, it was.
I have followed other parts of the line across Indiana, mostly in the last 10 years. so at least 20 years(Erie Western ran there for a few years in the late 70's) after most of it was abandoned. It's amazing how much of what had been for the most part a double track line has been almost completely retaken by nature, where it has not been plowed under by farmers. There are some places you really have to look to see the right of way.
There was a stretch of the Erie left in place West of Rochester to service the Laketon Refinery.
I know what you mean about it being harder to see. Now that INDOT has removed the highway bridges over the former Erie in my area, it is even harder to pick it out of the landscape. However, if you look for bridges that carried the Erie, many are still there. In Huntington, the deck bridge across the Little Wabash River just South of the former yard is still there, and NW of town there is a plate girder bridge visible from a county road that still says "E-L."
MP173 I am at a disadvantage of being away from home (Bethlehem, Pa) and my attention has been on the former LV and CNJ the past few days, so my EL books are not at hand. At Marion, Ohio the EL had a branch for Dayton, Ohio. They ran a pair of trains between Marion and Dayton, which was a nightmare to get into and out of Marion. The branch line was EAST of the EL yard and had a turnout which facilitated a move only frm east to southwest. So, the train had to back out of the yard all the way thru town, then reverse and head back west, then swing southwest on the line to Dayton. Preston Cook's excellent book on EL describes in detail this movement. It seems like the EL handed off this traffic to B&O in Dayton for movement to Cincinnati and Indianapolis. Much has been discussed about the EL's superior routing to NYC for intermodal, but let's take a closer look. The EL line picked up the UPS intermodal by default...Penn Central simply couldnt handle the demands of UPS. EL had difficulty as the financial situation melted. For an excellent review of UPS/EL secure a copy of The Diamond, the historical society magazine of the EL. Once Conrail rebuilt the former New York Central route, that line had the capacity and the profile to move massive amounts of freight, including intermodal. Also condusive to that route was the ability to swap blocks at important markets such as Cleveland, Syracuse, and Selkirk. EL could not have competed except on possibly Chicago - NYC, and that would have required a large investment. Lets face it, intermodal trains look impressive at 60mph, but the general freights (boxcar freight) and coal made railroads bigger margins. A mixture of intermodal, unit trains, and general freight were necessary for financial security. EL didnt have coal and their general freight was drying up. Two or three intermodals each way would have been difficult to pay for the infrastructure. Ed
I am at a disadvantage of being away from home (Bethlehem, Pa) and my attention has been on the former LV and CNJ the past few days, so my EL books are not at hand.
At Marion, Ohio the EL had a branch for Dayton, Ohio. They ran a pair of trains between Marion and Dayton, which was a nightmare to get into and out of Marion. The branch line was EAST of the EL yard and had a turnout which facilitated a move only frm east to southwest. So, the train had to back out of the yard all the way thru town, then reverse and head back west, then swing southwest on the line to Dayton.
Preston Cook's excellent book on EL describes in detail this movement. It seems like the EL handed off this traffic to B&O in Dayton for movement to Cincinnati and Indianapolis.
Much has been discussed about the EL's superior routing to NYC for intermodal, but let's take a closer look. The EL line picked up the UPS intermodal by default...Penn Central simply couldnt handle the demands of UPS. EL had difficulty as the financial situation melted. For an excellent review of UPS/EL secure a copy of The Diamond, the historical society magazine of the EL.
Once Conrail rebuilt the former New York Central route, that line had the capacity and the profile to move massive amounts of freight, including intermodal. Also condusive to that route was the ability to swap blocks at important markets such as Cleveland, Syracuse, and Selkirk. EL could not have competed except on possibly Chicago - NYC, and that would have required a large investment.
Lets face it, intermodal trains look impressive at 60mph, but the general freights (boxcar freight) and coal made railroads bigger margins. A mixture of intermodal, unit trains, and general freight were necessary for financial security. EL didnt have coal and their general freight was drying up.
Two or three intermodals each way would have been difficult to pay for the infrastructure.
It would have to have been more than a few a day.
The EL, D&H and B&M were sinking into the swamp at the time. Trying to be a "regular railroad" for each of them was a losing proposition. So, rather than trying to be all things to all people, I imagine the Kneiling was suggesting that they concentrate their remaining assets and try to do one thing well, and that one thing should be in a growth area. Assuming they would have been allowed, a high performance, intermodal-only road could have beaten the pants off PC at the time and might have been able to grab a significant share of highway traffic in the lane. It could have resulted in more that a few trains a day. Maybe something more in line with current level of traffic on NS and CSX in the lane - a dozen or more trains a day, each way.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
A lot of the EL in Indiana was lifted in 1981, thirty years later, its as you say, it's obliterated in places, with little trace of its passing. The terminal in Huntington, IN, would be easy to miss if you didn't know where to look. It's sad, it was one of my favorite lines that I didn't get to see enough of.
Actually, in the early days of stacks-1985 into the 90's, Conrail did run their stacks on the part of the Erie it still operated, from Croxton Yard in Secaucus, to Buffalo, where it connected with the former NYC lines. I lived near Binghamton from 1988 thru 2006, used to see a lot of them there. The Erie would have made a great clearance route for through trains, intermodal, or otherwise. Its great disadvantage was that it had the longest NY area-Chicago route at 997 miles. As CR got its act together in the mid 80's, it would have been hard for even a rebuilt and deregulated EL to compete, as Conrail would have gone all the same places on a better route. If the Rock Island was a "poor man's Burlington", then Erie, and later EL, was a poor man's NY Central.
I often wonder if the Erie would have made it had the regulators allowed Pennsy - N&W and NYC - C&O instead of stearing for the disaster that was the PC.
I have heard a few people who seem to know what they are talking about on here claim that the Erie would have survived were it not for the hurricane.
I know: what ifs are pretty wrought with undue speculation. I think it would be cool to hang out in Rochester and watch EL trains though . . .
Conrail was all about eliminating redundant lines. There were already the NYC and the PRR routes to NYC. A third line, just for the doublestacks, would not have made economic sense. Plus recall the doublestack movement did not occur until the 1980's. EL was eliminated about 1 minute after Conrail was formed.
Perhaps I am mistaken, but it seems that the best method of operating a railroad would be to maximize the volume on as few of lines as possible. EL had quite a few good benefits, but the lack of on line business was a killer for it. Thru Indiana, I cannot think of any communities it served which was major generators of traffic. I am not sure, but dont believe the EL even ran a local out here on the west end.
Murphy Siding ValleyX: Akron, Ohio, was the last city of any size the Erie passed through going west. I've thought for years what a wonderful route with its clearances it could have been for today's intermodal service but it still had to go through Chicago. I've read this before, about clearances on the Erie, but don't quite understand. Overhead clearances because of a lack of tunnels, or the fact that missing all those cities also meant missing a lot of low overpasses?
ValleyX: Akron, Ohio, was the last city of any size the Erie passed through going west. I've thought for years what a wonderful route with its clearances it could have been for today's intermodal service but it still had to go through Chicago.
Akron, Ohio, was the last city of any size the Erie passed through going west. I've thought for years what a wonderful route with its clearances it could have been for today's intermodal service but it still had to go through Chicago.
The Erie also had generous side to side clearances, too. This may have been an artifact of it originally being a broad-gage road that was standard-gaged. However, by the time it made it across Indiana, it was built as a standard gage line. Looking at photos of the thru-truss bridges over the St Mary's River in Decatur, In, I can't say these had any more clearance than bridges on other railroads.
When the line was double-tracked, there are many places where the tracks are some distance apart. At North Judson, for example, the C&O and NYC had a diamond (and tower?) between the EB and WB Erie tracks.
In hindsight, Conrail could have saved a lot of money if they had kept the Erie, it had double-stack clearances long before there were double-stack trains.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.