Recently a number of forum members voiced some opinions concerning the former CEO of CN, Hunter Harrison, some based on personal observations. Unfortunately, those two threads are no longer with us. In his career, he generated a lot of strong reactions, positive and negative. Certainly he was one of the more colorful railroad execs of the past 50 years. This was seen in the Trains article in July 2009. More thoughts?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
A great railroader. He worked his way up through the ranks, so he understood the business from the ground up. His legacy is what CN is today: the most profitable railroad on the continent and a railroad that is well positioned to do even better in the future.
Ulrich A great railroader. He worked his way up through the ranks, so he understood the business from the ground up.
A great railroader. He worked his way up through the ranks, so he understood the business from the ground up.
And I believe there are quite a few former WC customers that would have a few less-than-complimentary comments about how the CN treated them.
I am not going to attempt to defend Harrison or any other detested Senior Executive on the carriers where they have developed their reputations. That being said, each is a product of their own experiences and the strategies they have observed as working and not working during their careers.
When one attempts to apply the 'one size fits all' theory of management to the carriers it overlooks the geographical realities that each carrier must face in particular circumstance. ie. what works in the flat-lands may not work in the mountains and vice versa.
The biggest problem with these Senior Executives is the necessary ego that must go with the personality. The ego demands that the individual is always right....even when the individual is wrong, the ego won't let them admit it and change their strategies accordingly. The Senior Executives did not get to their positions by being wrong very frequently and they have then developed the personality trait of believing that they are never wrong.
zardoz Ulrich: A great railroader. He worked his way up through the ranks, so he understood the business from the ground up. Is that why soon after the purchase of BCR that he tried to implement 'his' brand of railroading, which led to the rash of derailments due to stringlining? And I believe there are quite a few former WC customers that would have a few less-than-complimentary comments about how the CN treated them.
Ulrich: A great railroader. He worked his way up through the ranks, so he understood the business from the ground up.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
CP's first quarter of 2011 was the worst quarter for them in recent memory, due to costs associated with the bad winter we had here. As I mentioned on the one Harrison thread that is still running, CN has had a very bad second quarter up here, as well as in Illinois and Tennessee which I forgot to mention.
I am going to go out on a limb here and say CN's Earning per Share in second quarter 2011 is going to be less than half of the 2010 number. And that much vaunted expense ratio is going to take an attendant kick in the teeth as well.
Although E.H. Harrison can't control the weather, I will ask the question again. How did the legacies of his management style impact CN's ability to cope with all of the climate related issues they have experienced this spring?
Bruce
So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.
"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere" CP Rail Public Timetable
"O. S. Irricana"
. . . __ . ______
Personal opinion:
Perhaps Harrison Hunter was not the best liked of CEO;s he did turn CN into a profitable corporation
Norm
Bad quarters come and go...bad weather comes and goes... the legacy has more to do with longterm viability and overall longterm performance. From that standpoint Harrison did a fine job. E Hunter Harrison was known for his aggressive no nonsense management style...which may have rankled some folks who are not made that way. His style isn't all that different from others'..JJ Hill was known for having a salty disposition and an aggressive management style..I suspect one doesn't get to the top at any railroad without having the smarts and an aggressive get er done" can do" attitude.
Perhaps it's a question debated since 1532. Machiavelli, in addressing the question of whether it is better for a leader to be loved or feared, wrote, “The answer is that one would like to be both the one and the other; but because it is difficult to combine them, it is far safer to be feared than loved if you cannot be both.” Perhaps Harrison followed that guideline.
Good , bad, or indifferent, Harrison did a good job for getting to the top of the heap. I MAKE NO JUDJEMENT.
It's public record that CN became profitable - and enough so to have its Initial Public Offering of shares - and starting attaining Operating Ratios in the the low 70's while Paul Tellier was CEO, and several years before the merger with IC that brought Harrison on board. Harrison kept that trend going and may have improved on it a little bit, but he was after the fact.
What Harrison did do was implement the "scheduled railroad" concept there, which apparently led to long, efficient trains per a rigid operating plan - and some customer angst.
However, he may not have "known his limitations" - or that of his staff - in transferring his 'flatland' railroading experience to those parts of CN with significant mountain grades.
It remains to be seen whether Harrison was a 'cherry picker' of easy cost-cutting and quick 'juicing' of earnings for each quarter's financial statements, but left behind the resulting 'skeletons in the closet' in the form of deferred maintenance or upkeep of track, bridges, equipment, bad morale, poor customer relations, short-term 'fixes', etc. that will have to be addressed and fixed later on, which is when" the bill will come due" for CN and its shareholders.
- Paul North.
Harrison's record needs to be evaluated on the basis of his entire body of work, at the Frisco, BN, IC as well as the CN.
Tellier was a career civil servant...I suspect alot of what went well on Tellier's watch had to do with his second in command...namely Hunter Harrison. That would make sense...and it doesn't take anything away from Tellier's own impressive track record. CN has indeed been spending on infrastructure upkeep and improvements. Most recently, in February of this year, CN announced a 1.7 billion dollar initiative, 1 billion dollars of which is slated for right of way upkeep and impovement. CN's safety record over the last one, two and five year period speaks for itself. Sure there have been some well publicized incidents, but on the whole CN's safety record is much like its profitability: second to none. Harrison's most important contribution may be his succession planning..like his predecessor, he made sure that CN would be left in good capable hands upon his departure and that CN would continue to grow and prosper over the longterm.
Historical CN operating ratios, starting in 1995 (1996 was 1st year of privatization):
1995 89.3
1996 85.3
1997 78.4
1998 75.3 (Harrison joins CN after IC takeover)
1999 72.0
2000 69.6
2001 68.5
2002 69.4
2003 69.8 (Harrison's first year as CEO)
Harrison joined CN in Jan. 1998. So to say the improvements in OE at CN under Harrison's predecessor Tellier were "a lot" because of Harrison is an exaggeration.
I didn't say anything about the OE..there's more to a business than that ..I stated Harrison's accomplishments did not diminish Tellier's...Surely having an experienced railroader like Harrison, who worked his way up through the ranks over many years, added value to Tellier's management team.
Agreed. I'm quite sure he was an important part on CN's and IC's success. However, there are other indicators of the record of a person besides financial statistics, some of which don't show up on balance sheets and financial statements. There are far too many opinions from people familiar with his work at the various railroads about his relationships with employees and customers to dismiss them as rumors or pure fiction created by soreheads.
schlimm Agreed. I'm quite sure he was an important part on CN's and IC's success. However, there are other indicators of the record of a person besides financial statistics, some of which don't show up on balance sheets and financial statements. There are far too many opinions from people familiar with his work at the various railroads about his relationships with employees and customers to dismiss them as rumors or pure fiction created by soreheads.
Sure there are...opinions...yet he made it to the top at CN after a steady climb up the ladder at other roads. Sometimes one has to make a choice..do you want to be liked and everyone's best friend?...or do you want to do what's right for the business? He was probably a hard boss to work for...aggressive...intractable... opinionated.. hardnosed...but incompetent? I don't think anyone could accuse him of that.. Like Hill or Van Horne, he understood the business backwards and forwards like only someone who worked his way up from carman or greaser could...
It is sad to see many on here focused only on profits, but I guess that is what the world is coming too...
Sure Hunter lowered operating costs and what not, but at what cost? At a big cost, that's what.
My random observations of Hunter, in no particular order:
1. He turned the WC from a modern success story, with great customer service and employees to another run of the mill railroad with crappy service.
2. He made a mockery of the CN's customer service. Just because a company is forced to keep doing business with someone doesn't mean they like it. I guarantee if I could start a competing short line able to haul the volume and frequency CN does, Minntac and Minorca would leave the CN behind as a bad memory for limestone shipments. Just awful service, and the railroad doesn't care.
3. Single handedly destroyed everyone's pride and love for their job. I have NEVER, EVER seen a railroad as demoralized as the Missabe. This time tomorrow, one of my good friends will have become the youngest engineer in the history of the Missabe at age 19. He has already told me he doesn't care about his job anymore. In the beginning, he worked hard to get the extra cars moved and customer spotted. He said he realized that the more work you do, the more chances you have to fail some asinine rule and get fired. He got an investigation for going to the bathroom last month.
4. Harrison plain doesn't understand railroading. He clearly didn't understand weather at least. You see, in the winter in northern MN it gets cold and snows. In his grand idea to run 11,000' trains, over a 2.2% grade, in the dead of winter, he had some oversights. In the summer, they (DWP) installed Helper Link onto locomotives so they could shove these land barges up the hill and cut off on the fly. It worked great. Then, in the middle of winter Hunter, in all his infinite wisdom, decreed that helpers were no longer needed. 3 engines was enough to drag afore mentioned 11,000' train up the 2.2% grade in the middle of the winter. So one evening, a land barge was scheduled to go out, and they actually had a few good trainmasters in Superior at this time. They knew the train would never in a million years make it up that hill without pushers. They needed to make a decision...push the train and get hell, or not have the train leave and get hell. They were between Hunter and Hunter. So they took the phones off the hook, locked the doors, and shoved that *** train up the hill. They were both personally fired by EHH a few days later.
It reminds me of the story our version of a trainmaster always tells, when on the BN this was the normal route of things: New guy would come in, wonder why the train wasn't pumping in -50 weather. Would have 5 crews come and go after 12, just sitting there pumping, until VOILA! train is charged, ready to go. Never mind that the air temp had rose 45 degrees in those 3 days, but by god they were going run than one long train, not 2 shorter ones which would pump up.
5. Hunters way is the best, and everything else is foolish.
Now you have to understand that the Missabe was very frugal in some ways, and there was little they did which didn't serve a direct purpose. So of course the way they ran their trains and maintained their equipment and shops all served the purpose of keeping a well oiled machine running. Their call times for the Proctor Road Switch were made to maximize efficiency. The CN, led by EHH absolutely gutted it. Removing logos and downsizing a bit is fine, whatever, but they way they pillaged the Missabe was sickening. Fired all their managers, let go all the shop employees, mostly and said the hell with 60 years of experience, we are the CN and we know how to run a railroad! What? The Missabe has units made specifically for the Missabe? Naww scrap them and bring in the crappy IC units without dynamic brakes. They made them run trains down Proctor Hill, these are loaded taconite trains with 130 cars down a 2.2% grade over 6.6 miles, without straight air or dynamic brakes. It finally took a call to the FRA by the CMO to get rid of them. PRS times? Naw they decided to put an engine on the dock all night to dump trains. I think my buddy said the most they did was work for 2 hours and then play cards the rest of the night due to lack of work. Maintenance? Whats maintenance? If by repairs you mean duct tape then yes.
7. Managers. Under Harrisons guidance, the CN had managment camps where managers would go to learn how to ruin a railroad. And ruin they did! The Southern Region guys dont even bother to learn the Superintendents names. "oh we call him number 7" I believe they have been through at least 5 in 7 seven years. Trainmasters are pawns for the super. Yardmasters have no leeway to run the yard the way they want too, if they knew how. Everyone hates everyone. Crews despise most managers, even more than usual.
Had a good talk with our FRA MP&E guy, and he told me its scary to go inspect the CN. The things they try to cover up, and not fix, and their general attitude from the mid level managers is terrible. You know who they got it from.
Long story short, sure he may look good on paper, but it came at the expense of common employee, the ones who actually do all the work.
Mechanical Department "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..."
The Missabe Road: Safety First
Yet judging by the numbers (safety, profits, growth) ...CN seems to have done alright since its privatization. Say what you like...the numbers are the numbers..
Ulrich, let me ask you a question. Have you ever done dirty, blue collar work? Have you ever spent time in an industry where there is a significant difference between the workers and the higher ups?
Ulrich schlimm: Agreed. I'm quite sure he was an important part on CN's and IC's success. However, there are other indicators of the record of a person besides financial statistics, some of which don't show up on balance sheets and financial statements. There are far too many opinions from people familiar with his work at the various railroads about his relationships with employees and customers to dismiss them as rumors or pure fiction created by soreheads. Sure there are...opinions...yet he made it to the top at CN after a steady climb up the ladder at other roads. Sometimes one has to make a choice..do you want to be liked and everyone's best friend?...or do you want to do what's right for the business? He was probably a hard boss to work for...aggressive...intractable... opinionated.. hardnosed...but incompetent? I don't think anyone could accuse him of that.. Like Hill or Van Horne, he understood the business backwards and forwards like only someone who worked his way up from carman or greaser could...
schlimm: Agreed. I'm quite sure he was an important part on CN's and IC's success. However, there are other indicators of the record of a person besides financial statistics, some of which don't show up on balance sheets and financial statements. There are far too many opinions from people familiar with his work at the various railroads about his relationships with employees and customers to dismiss them as rumors or pure fiction created by soreheads.
Wasn't aware being the laughingstock of the rail industry was good for the company... Thats what they are,everyone I have talked to agrees.
coborn35 It is sad to see many on here focused only on profits, but I guess that is what the world is coming too... Sure Hunter lowered operating costs and what not, but at what cost? At a big cost, that's what. My random observations of Hunter, in no particular order: 1. He turned the WC from a modern success story, with great customer service and employees to another run of the mill railroad with crappy service. 2. He made a mockery of the CN's customer service. Just because a company is forced to keep doing business with someone doesn't mean they like it. I guarantee if I could start a competing short line able to haul the volume and frequency CN does, Minntac and Minorca would leave the CN behind as a bad memory for limestone shipments. Just awful service, and the railroad doesn't care. 3. Single handedly destroyed everyone's pride and love for their job. I have NEVER, EVER seen a railroad as demoralized as the Missabe. This time tomorrow, one of my good friends will have become the youngest engineer in the history of the Missabe at age 19. He has already told me he doesn't care about his job anymore. In the beginning, he worked hard to get the extra cars moved and customer spotted. He said he realized that the more work you do, the more chances you have to fail some asinine rule and get fired. He got an investigation for going to the bathroom last month. 4. Harrison plain doesn't understand railroading. He clearly didn't understand weather at least. You see, in the winter in northern MN it gets cold and snows. In his grand idea to run 11,000' trains, over a 2.2% grade, in the dead of winter, he had some oversights. In the summer, they (DWP) installed Helper Link onto locomotives so they could shove these land barges up the hill and cut off on the fly. It worked great. Then, in the middle of winter Hunter, in all his infinite wisdom, decreed that helpers were no longer needed. 3 engines was enough to drag afore mentioned 11,000' train up the 2.2% grade in the middle of the winter. So one evening, a land barge was scheduled to go out, and they actually had a few good trainmasters in Superior at this time. They knew the train would never in a million years make it up that hill without pushers. They needed to make a decision...push the train and get hell, or not have the train leave and get hell. They were between Hunter and Hunter. So they took the phones off the hook, locked the doors, and shoved that *** train up the hill. They were both personally fired by EHH a few days later. It reminds me of the story our version of a trainmaster always tells, when on the BN this was the normal route of things: New guy would come in, wonder why the train wasn't pumping in -50 weather. Would have 5 crews come and go after 12, just sitting there pumping, until VOILA! train is charged, ready to go. Never mind that the air temp had rose 45 degrees in those 3 days, but by god they were going run than one long train, not 2 shorter ones which would pump up. 5. Hunters way is the best, and everything else is foolish. Now you have to understand that the Missabe was very frugal in some ways, and there was little they did which didn't serve a direct purpose. So of course the way they ran their trains and maintained their equipment and shops all served the purpose of keeping a well oiled machine running. Their call times for the Proctor Road Switch were made to maximize efficiency. The CN, led by EHH absolutely gutted it. Removing logos and downsizing a bit is fine, whatever, but they way they pillaged the Missabe was sickening. Fired all their managers, let go all the shop employees, mostly and said the hell with 60 years of experience, we are the CN and we know how to run a railroad! What? The Missabe has units made specifically for the Missabe? Naww scrap them and bring in the crappy IC units without dynamic brakes. They made them run trains down Proctor Hill, these are loaded taconite trains with 130 cars down a 2.2% grade over 6.6 miles, without straight air or dynamic brakes. It finally took a call to the FRA by the CMO to get rid of them. PRS times? Naw they decided to put an engine on the dock all night to dump trains. I think my buddy said the most they did was work for 2 hours and then play cards the rest of the night due to lack of work. Maintenance? Whats maintenance? If by repairs you mean duct tape then yes. 7. Managers. Under Harrisons guidance, the CN had managment camps where managers would go to learn how to ruin a railroad. And ruin they did! The Southern Region guys dont even bother to learn the Superintendents names. "oh we call him number 7" I believe they have been through at least 5 in 7 seven years. Trainmasters are pawns for the super. Yardmasters have no leeway to run the yard the way they want too, if they knew how. Everyone hates everyone. Crews despise most managers, even more than usual. Had a good talk with our FRA MP&E guy, and he told me its scary to go inspect the CN. The things they try to cover up, and not fix, and their general attitude from the mid level managers is terrible. You know who they got it from. Long story short, sure he may look good on paper, but it came at the expense of common employee, the ones who actually do all the work.
You just described pretty much every class-1 in the past 30 years. CN isn't that special. Face it, all railroads suck - they just paint their engines different colors.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Ulrich Yet judging by the numbers (safety, profits, growth) ...CN seems to have done alright since its privatization. Say what you like...the numbers are the numbers..
Ah, numbers. There is a famous saying about lies, d**** lies and statistics. For a time they claimed a far lower rate of derailments than any other railway, but it seems they were about average when it came to major incidents. The difference? Apparently for CN it was only a derailment if more than two or three cars derailed. If your transcon freight falls way back, start another of the same number in Edmonton so it appears to have arrived on schedule. The shippers knew better, but the sacred performance numbers looked good. As Paul mentioned, it remains to be seen whether the operating ratio holds up long term or if he took full advantage of a physical plant in good enough shape to survive with less maintenance.
And while perhaps the guy at the top has to be somewhat hard-nosed, from what I heard there was more than a little vindictiveness involved. The best leaders are prepared to listen; at CN many tried to say as little as possible for fear of their jobs.
John
schlimm Historical CN operating ratios, starting in 1995 (1996 was 1st year of privatization): [snipped] 2003 69.8 (Harrison's first year as CEO) Harrison joined CN in Jan. 1998. So to say the improvements in OE at CN under Harrison's predecessor Tellier were "a lot" because of Harrison is an exaggeration.
coborn35 Ulrich, let me ask you a question. Have you ever done dirty, blue collar work? Have you ever spent time in an industry where there is a significant difference between the workers and the higher ups?
Yes, 23 years in the trucking industry and counting. First 10 years were most definitely in blue collar jobs...tire changer, dock worker, driver...etc.
cx500 Ulrich: Yet judging by the numbers (safety, profits, growth) ...CN seems to have done alright since its privatization. Say what you like...the numbers are the numbers.. Ah, numbers. There is a famous saying about lies, d**** lies and statistics. For a time they claimed a far lower rate of derailments than any other railway, but it seems they were about average when it came to major incidents. The difference? Apparently for CN it was only a derailment if more than two or three cars derailed. If your transcon freight falls way back, start another of the same number in Edmonton so it appears to have arrived on schedule. The shippers knew better, but the sacred performance numbers looked good. As Paul mentioned, it remains to be seen whether the operating ratio holds up long term or if he took full advantage of a physical plant in good enough shape to survive with less maintenance. And while perhaps the guy at the top has to be somewhat hard-nosed, from what I heard there was more than a little vindictiveness involved. The best leaders are prepared to listen; at CN many tried to say as little as possible for fear of their jobs. John
Ulrich: Yet judging by the numbers (safety, profits, growth) ...CN seems to have done alright since its privatization. Say what you like...the numbers are the numbers..
I think the performance will hold up over the longterm...as I noted earlier, CN is investing heavily in infrastructure improvements. Furthermore CN has nice long hauls and a relatively simple track network that naturally works to its advantage. But like any business, they're a work in progress.
Paul_D_North_Jr(snip) It remains to be seen whether Harrison was a 'cherry picker' of easy cost-cutting and quick 'juicing' of earnings for each quarter's financial statements, but left behind the resulting 'skeletons in the closet' in the form of deferred maintenance or upkeep of track, bridges, equipment, bad morale, poor customer relations, short-term 'fixes', etc. that will have to be addressed and fixed later on, which is when" the bill will come due" for CN and its shareholders. - Paul North.
Dan
It remains to be seen...because it sure doesn't look like that now. New locomotives on the way...1 billion being spent on infrastructure improvement...public acknowlegement that customer relations needs work. These are all postitive signs.
Just to put this into perspective, nearly every business in the world has this going on to some extent. Chaulk it up to life isn't fair.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Chalk it up to supply and demand...you make what you make...I make what I make...and the CEO of CN makes what he makes largely due to market forces...You too can make a 7 figure salary...just become the CEO of a Fortune 500.
The tone and value of this discussion would be improved if we stayed with Hunter Harrison's performance, based on specifics, not on salaries, the work experience of posters, or generalities about what the CN is doing now. Surely there are some members who can discuss with knowledge his career prior to CN.
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