ericsp Perhaps they ship pigs in passenger car now. "Porter, is my sty ready?"
Perhaps they ship pigs in passenger car now. "Porter, is my sty ready?"
A couple of the hog confinements around here use converted school buses to take small lots to the local packing plant. Possibly to transfer between confinement facilities, too.
Jeff
greyhounds erikem: That idea had been implemented well before Bill walked into your office. White in his The American Railroad Freight Car described cars that had been built with watering and feeding troughs. These were built decades before long distance trucking became common, so the inventors weren't thinking of truck competition. Good insight on Bill's part about what could be done easily on a railcar as opposed to a truck. - Erik Which leaves us to wonder why the concept of a stock cars with feed and water for the stock wasn't adopted.
erikem: That idea had been implemented well before Bill walked into your office. White in his The American Railroad Freight Car described cars that had been built with watering and feeding troughs. These were built decades before long distance trucking became common, so the inventors weren't thinking of truck competition. Good insight on Bill's part about what could be done easily on a railcar as opposed to a truck. - Erik
That idea had been implemented well before Bill walked into your office. White in his The American Railroad Freight Car described cars that had been built with watering and feeding troughs. These were built decades before long distance trucking became common, so the inventors weren't thinking of truck competition.
Good insight on Bill's part about what could be done easily on a railcar as opposed to a truck.
- Erik
Which leaves us to wonder why the concept of a stock cars with feed and water for the stock wasn't adopted.
Some cars were built and put into service, but apparently there wasn't enough benefit to justify the extra expense. I'd wonder about how much of the water managed to stay in the troughs long enough for the animals to drink it and similar thoughts about the food. In addition, there would be the issue of copious amounts of organic fertilizer in both liquid and solid form.
[Edit] Since only a portion of the livestock cars were equipped for self watering and self feeding, the RR's still had to provide the infrastructure fr handling livestock with ordinary stockcars. It is possible that the RR's would have been ahead with all of the stock cars being equipped with watering and feeding troughs, but that never came about.
White did make the comment that RR's didn't particularly like handling livestock, the revenues weren't all that great and the claims department was kept really busy...
P.S. With respect to shipping ice cream: Ice cream needs to be kept colder than almost any other frozen food. This probably not a big issue with a properly running mechanical reefer, but I rather doubt that an ice-cooled reefer would say cold enough no matter how much salt was added to the ice.
Excerpts from Archeological Documentary Study, No. 7 Line Extension / Hudson Yards Rezoning (2004)
Historically, meat marketing and processing facilities in Manhattan were established along the shoreline to facilitate the movement of livestock and feed since the waterfront, with accessible transportation routes, was ideal for receiving goods from Long Island, upstate New York, New Jersey, and eventually the Midwest. Manhattan's supply of beef in the 19th and 20th centuries came from local slaughterhouses, with livestock arriving by rail at terminals on the west shore of the Hudson River. Large stock pens were maintained primarily in New Jersey, where the cattle were kept until needed by the slaughterhouses in Manhattan.
When needed, livestock was loaded onto special stock barges that were brought by tugboat across the Hudson. In the mid-20th century, beef slaughtered and prepared outside of New York City began to impact the slaughtering business on Manhattan, with the majority of City slaughterhouses and processing facilities closed sometime in the 1960s...
A major catalyst in bringing the livestock industry north into the project area in a more formal sense was the Pennsylvania Railroad Co., which transported livestock via rail to Jersey City and then across the Hudson to Manhattan. The company served a set of slaughterhouses located along West 39th and 40th Streets off of Twelfth Avenue, and another set at West 34th Street. The Manhattan Abattoir had a dock at the foot of West 34th Street in the 1870s, and cattle were brought to their slaughterhouse between Eleventh and Twelfth Avenues beneath the streets via a cow tunnel...
Sometime between 1928 and 1930 a two-story concrete cattle pen was built at the southeastern intersection of West 39th Street and Twelfth Avenue. Another underground cattle pass was built from the shoreline to this pen to allow cows to be driven under, instead of across, Twelfth Avenue. On the western end a covered ramp was entered from inside Pier 78, leased by the Pennsylvania Railroad. Pens were built on the pier itself to handle the livestock before the animals were moved through the tunnel to the West 37th Street yard...
http://members.trainweb.com/bedt/indloco/prrpier78hr.jpg
http://members.trainweb.com/bedt/indloco/prrpier78cattleboat.jpg
Pier 78 at W. 38th St. on the right, Con Edison gas storage tank at W. 44th St., NYC 60th Street Yard and the IRT Powerhouse (with 6 smokestacks) at W. 58th St. on the left.
Right headlight of a southbound truck on 12th Ave.
Northbound truck. Pier 78 is to the left of the pictures. The triagular-shaped cattle pen is in the northwest corner of the PRR freight yard. For more info and great pictures, be sure to visit the BEDT website.
http://members.trainweb.com/bedt/indloco/prr37.html
PRR yard from 12th Ave. & W. 38th St., southeast wall of cattle pen on the left.
Cattle pen with canvas in 1937, viewed from the shadow of the West Side Highway, which made the cow tunnel necessary. Sign says, "Open 1938" The Port of New York Authority (Lincoln Tunnel).
Looking south on 12th Ave. at W. 39th St. in 1933, cattle pen on the left, Pier 78 on the right. In the distance, water towers on the roof of LV's Starrett Lehigh Building.
Yet, from another website I learned that FGWX 300000 was seen yesterday - June 15, 2011 - EB through Cresson, PA (approaching the summit above Horseshoe Curve). It's stencilled as:
"USDA - GRAIN INSPECTION, PACKERS and STOCK YARDS ADMINISTRATION"
Then underneath in smaller lettering on its "plug' door on the side is a good clue to its true purpose in this life:
"Scales and Weighing Program"
See these photos (none are mine) of it - note the end door in the 2nd one - pretty unusual to see that large of what is essentially a scale test car !
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2141604
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2116409
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2116408
- Paul North.
well see the diffrance there they could not pull over and sleep for the night unlike u can a truck that is the diffrance between the truck and the train
the diffrance is they coulnt pull the train over for the night and sleep ike they can a semi truck and there for that is the diffrance between trucks hauling them and the trains hauling them.
Jeffery_Oday1211 the diffrance is they coulnt pull the train over for the night and sleep ike they can a semi truck and there for that is the diffrance between trucks hauling them and the trains hauling them.
Confined animals don't know if they are in a truck stock trailer or a railroad stock car, all they know is they want feed and water. Truck driver can sleep & rest - stock not so much.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
It's an odd thing about trains carrying livestock: they're better in the abstract. If you saw one today you wouldn't like it.
When my family lived next door to the NKP main line (in East Cleveland) we had trains carrying livestock pass our house (eastbound) rather often, at least in the early 1950's, and sometimes those trains even stopped because of a red (signal) light. In any event, I always felt my heart go out to those poor beasts. Whether swine, cattle, or sheep, they all looked crammed into those (open) slat-sided cars. The sounds emanating from those cars were, to this kid, heart-rending. In the winter I recall seeing snow and ice caked on their wool or the wooden sides of the car.
Nonetheless, I ate their meat and wore their wool; it was the way of the world and I accepted it. Today, however, I am glad that such trains no longer exist, although I can still hear in my mind the mournful sounds of those animals enduring a long, uncomfortable journey to their slaughter.
AroUnd here we call "The aroma of animal business" THE SWEET SMELL OF AMBROSIA!!!"
BaltACD Truck driver can sleep & rest - stock not so much.
blue streak 1 BaltACD Don't know how truck drivers can sleep. Have you ever tried to sleep in a rest stop and a stock trailer pulls in beside you ? Stock trailers at truck stops are frowned upon.
BaltACD
College days I was reduced to hitchhiking.....got picked up by a empty 18 wheel stock truck - rough ride in more ways than one.
Interstate rest areas don't have the 'high class' ambiance of recognized truck stops.
BaltACD College days I was reduced to hitchhiking.....got picked up by a empty 18 wheel stock truck - rough ride in more ways than one.
BaltACD: A hearty salute to your perservience. Don't know if many of us could have done the same. Congrats.
Being an old farm boy, 50's & 60's, Ain't no big deal. The farm house was down wind from the barns - 300+ pigs, 75 milk cows & 150+ sheep. The aroma of stock trailers now just bring back memories of why I'm NOT on the farm anymore.
I definitely remember seeing (and have the photos) livestock cars on sidings on the UP in eastern Nebraska for hog service for the movement out to the Farmer John's facility in Los Angeles back in the mid- to late 80's. Sadly, there just aren't a lot of long-haul opportunities out there for the Class I's but if there were, I think they could find ways to capitalize on them if they knew how.
This is a fascinating thread. Thanks for starting the thread FOUR years ago, Thomas 9011. Where have I been?
Union Pacific’s Los Angeles & Salt Lake Line used to host a hot westbound hog train that unloaded somewhere near Los Angeles. I once saw (late 1970’s / early 1980’s) one of those hog trains go into the siding at Dry Lake, NV in the M.P. 374 area The hogs were watered there. The hog train ironically had gotten in the way of a hot westbound passenger special with GP40X’s on it (you can see how long ago that was). The hot passenger special rounded the final curve, previously passing a yellow, expecting a red in mountainous terrain. It saw a high green, and gunned it. What a show! The hog train then partially backed out of the siding, and the remaining hogs were watered while slowly going forward again. Cool show! Too bad that is not likely to be repeated in today’s world of no hog trains.
---------
A personal memo to Los Angeles Rams Guy (10-01):
Years ago my father-in-law had season tickets to Los Angeles Rams games in an Anaheim stadium, tickets I think he received because of his then railroad employment, and occasionally gave my wife and I tickets. Then the Rams became the St Louis Rams. It just so happened that my daughter and her husband moved to the St. Louis area. Quite a coincidence! What is the status of the continuing rumor that the Rams want to come back to Los Angeles? Are the Rams just playing games with the cities, or are they serious? Do you know anything about this?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
Since this thread was revived, note that Kalmbach came out with the Jeff Wilson book "Livestock & Meatpacking", which actually covers quite a bit of what was discussed on this thread.Not wanting to cover ground already gone over in this thread, one thing Mr Wilson mentions in his book is that Iowa Beef Processors (IBP) was a major force in changing how the meat industry was organized up to that point (stockyards to central urban slaughterhouses to local packing houses/distributors to retail clients) to the more decentralized yet more vertical system of the later 20th century:"NYT: IOWA BEEF REVOLUTIONIZED MEAT-PACKING INDUSTRY"
Founded in 1960 in Denison, Iowa, the company transformed the staid processing business by moving its plants out of big cities into cattle-raising areas and introducing assembly-line butchering. By getting each meat cutter along the line to make the same cut over and over, Iowa Beef was able to argue that its workers were not skilled butchers but semiskilled laborers and should be paid accordingly.<snip>But the innovation for which it is most famous was the boxed-beef concept. Instead of just slaughtering cattle and shipping the boneheavy carcasses to market, Iowa beef pre-cut the steer, trimmed off much of the bone and fat -thus slashing transportation costs -and shipped the meat in vacuum-packed boxes to the stores. Thus it was able not only to offer the lowest cost beef, but also to permit its supermarket customers to employ fewer butchers.
We should all eat less meat and have more respect for the animals who share this earth with us. I'm no fan of stock trains and am glad that they're for the most part a thing of the past.
chutton01 Since this thread was revived, note that Kalmbach came out with the Jeff Wilson book "Livestock & Meatpacking", which actually covers quite a bit of what was discussed on this thread.Not wanting to cover ground already gone over in this thread, one thing Mr Wilson mentions in his book is that Iowa Beef Processors (IBP) was a major force in changing how the meat industry was organized up to that point (stockyards to central urban slaughterhouses to local packing houses/distributors to retail clients) to the more decentralized yet more vertical system of the later 20th century:"NYT: IOWA BEEF REVOLUTIONIZED MEAT-PACKING INDUSTRY" Founded in 1960 in Denison, Iowa, the company transformed the staid processing business by moving its plants out of big cities into cattle-raising areas and introducing assembly-line butchering. By getting each meat cutter along the line to make the same cut over and over, Iowa Beef was able to argue that its workers were not skilled butchers but semiskilled laborers and should be paid accordingly.<snip>But the innovation for which it is most famous was the boxed-beef concept. Instead of just slaughtering cattle and shipping the boneheavy carcasses to market, Iowa beef pre-cut the steer, trimmed off much of the bone and fat -thus slashing transportation costs -and shipped the meat in vacuum-packed boxes to the stores. Thus it was able not only to offer the lowest cost beef, but also to permit its supermarket customers to employ fewer butchers. Admittedly, by 1960 truck hauling of cattle direct to slaugherhouses was becoming more common than by rail (which was true of many commodities at the time), but IBP changed the industry in a rather drastic fashion.
Admittedly, by 1960 truck hauling of cattle direct to slaugherhouses was becoming more common than by rail (which was true of many commodities at the time), but IBP changed the industry in a rather drastic fashion.
I suspect that the accelerated abandonment of a lot of branchline trackage from the post-war period forward also contributed to the demise of shipping cattle by rail. If the tracks aren't there to serve rural areas, then trucks are the only way to get cattle to market.
John Timm
I grew up on a farm with a few cows, and had to help drive them to the pen, get them into the pen, get them into the trailer to go to market and clean the trailer afterward (!!!). With that experience, I would rather be shot than to deal with the quantities of cattle the railroads hauled. Cows pee and poop a lot under normal circumstances, and they pee and poop twice as much under the stress of being moved. While being moved they are scared and do stupid things; even 800-lb. brood cows can hurt the handlers or themselves, much less 1200-lb. fattened steers or bulls. When you factor in unloading the cattle once or twice during transit for food and water, and building and maintaining the facilities, dealing with large quantities of cattle is difficult, nasty and expensive. The railroads were probably happy when the business went away. I certainly wouldn't want to be one of the handlers.
K. P. Harrier This is a fascinating thread. Thanks for starting the thread FOUR years ago, Thomas 9011. Where have I been? Union Pacific’s Los Angeles & Salt Lake Line used to host a hot westbound hog train that unloaded somewhere near Los Angeles. I once saw (late 1970’s / early 1980’s) one of those hog trains go into the siding at Dry Lake, NV in the M.P. 374 area The hogs were watered there. The hog train ironically had gotten in the way of a hot westbound passenger special with GP40X’s on it (you can see how long ago that was). The hot passenger special rounded the final curve, previously passing a yellow, expecting a red in mountainous terrain. It saw a high green, and gunned it. What a show! The hog train then partially backed out of the siding, and the remaining hogs were watered while slowly going forward again. Cool show! Too bad that is not likely to be repeated in today’s world of no hog trains. --------- A personal memo to Los Angeles Rams Guy (10-01): Years ago my father-in-law had season tickets to Los Angeles Rams games in an Anaheim stadium, tickets I think he received because of his then railroad employment, and occasionally gave my wife and I tickets. Then the Rams became the St Louis Rams. It just so happened that my daughter and her husband moved to the St. Louis area. Quite a coincidence! What is the status of the continuing rumor that the Rams want to come back to Los Angeles? Are the Rams just playing games with the cities, or are they serious? Do you know anything about this?
that "aroma of animal business waffe out of the car" is called "AMBROSIA" here in Pennsylvania where plenty of cattle are raised. Take a deep breath and enjoy the aroma.
O T.Back in the day horses were also transported by rail.Near our home, the thru freight would set off cars containing horses in the spur, as they were usually on head end for easy switching, like reefers for icing, and set over for the next transfer, then pull out for the Hump, Power usually FA/B 1 or 2 and a gaggle of 244 RSs.Once the drag left, we would go over and look at the horses thru the slats in the stock cars, they pushing their noses thru to smell and lick. We wold go down in the ditch and get grass and poke it up to them, creating a stir. Last ripe natural food they would get?They were doomed, and some knew it.We also knew if we let them out, the Cops would chase them and shoot them in a real rodeo in the City, as no 'Cowboys' within miles.We also knew what happened to horses still in use pulling milk wagons and bread wagons that failed in their duty in the streets. Block Ice and large orders of coal and coke for heating traveled by motor truck.We had already seen the abattoirs where horses were processed, opposite the Main Shops in the East end, it's smell advertising their presenceShortly, a transfer would show up, usually a hand-fired 2-8-0, and couple on for the last miles, SOMETIMES with two or three or so written-off high speed post-war steam engines, rods off, cobwebs, rust and broken glass, spaced six cars apart bound for the Shops and the Torch, and make the lift and pull out.At night the same job would lift here, and the fire reflecting up to the smoke and steam above thru the ajar fire door would go Bright-Bright-Bright-Bright in answer to the exhaust.In the East end, both the engines and the horses were cut up on each side of the track.We went to watch them cut up steam, and two of the gas electrics, but, never went across the track, the smell was bad enough.Mikado handling stock cars on head end. Packing plant sidings to right, Main shop to Left, out of frame.https://rockontrains.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/cpr-no-5114-montreal-qc-6-23-59-credit-bob-krone.jpg
Another view, further along, on the flat. Streamlined Mikado.
Main Shops to left, Stock Cars in Packing Plant to right.http://www.railpictures.net/photo/301503/
A few months later the older Mikado waiting for it's Last Trip to the East End, horses on the point, in cars, to the same location, Left and Right.http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/pictures%5C67684%5CCanadian%20Pacific%202140.TIF-1.jpgAs kids we would sneak thru the bush to the right and play on the locomotives, 'til we got caught one too many times.Life and Death, for a kid.CP 5114 was one of my faves, spewing cinders far and wide.Thank You..
Went to Battle Creek in the G/Y 9000 EMD F3 days, and the hog place adjacent really watered the eyes.
So many people refer to our baggage cars as "cattle cars" that I made a placard to post in one of the cars explaining what it was really for.
That said, there were some baggage-style cars used to haul horses (probably mostly race horses) around the country.
Sometimes I'll tell them about other things that got carried in baggage cars...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
My father told me of about 20 stock cars of a C&NW freight derailing in Wheaton in 1941. Some steers escaped that survived the crash, only to be shot by police as they ran through town.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
tree68 So many people refer to our baggage cars as "cattle cars" that I made a placard to post in one of the cars explaining what it was really for. That said, there were some baggage-style cars used to haul horses (probably mostly race horses) around the country. Sometimes I'll tell them about other things that got carried in baggage cars...
Thanks, Larry (tree68) That was a heart wrenching, beautiful poem.
I realize that this Thread's major topic here is rail movement of animals in specialized rail cars. But, with Tuesday of this week being FLAG DAY (6/14/2016) Never forget the important role that the railroads played in our history with other 'special movements'...
After WWII in 1947 from Port of NY the Joseph V. Connolly and in San Francisco the ship Honda Knot brought home some 231,181 repatriated, U.S. fighting men to be reinturred on American soil. The majority of them returned to homes all over the country by rail.
see this link with photos, from the website for Brooklyn Army Terminal & Bush Terminal @ http://members.trainweb.com/bedt/milrr/batbtww2repat.html
see also this link @ http://www.memorialdayfoundation.org/articles/safely-rest.html
Ok; Off my soapbox
I have a baggage ticket for one of those "other things." Found it many years ago in the local depot.
As mentioned, High Value Horses and such were moved in special Passenger Horse Cars which were modified Baggage Cars w Psgr Braking and Journals, Signal and Steam lines and heating.
There may well have been bunks and other accomidation for the handlers account Value.I understand these cars had two hinged End Doors on one end.On their final miles to the Race Track, the Horse Cars some times were moved over the streetcar tracks behind a Box or Steeple Cab electric, as the Park had streetcar loops and so forth.The race horses' paddocks faced the Ry. tracks, and they could view the Transfer with IT'S horses in stock cars passing by, if so inclined?Maybe the race horses went there, too, when THEIR day was done?? Probably by truck.Hmmm.
[for our Dakota members]
(from the C&NW Hist. Soc.) This F-7A "extra" is hauling a lot of stock cars somewhere on the C&NW system, probably out in the Dakotas. It is a C&NW company photo with no information as to where or when it was taken
Drivers in the Midwest know to roll their window up when a livestock truck approaches. Did train crews do the same when passing livestock cars?
NDGI understand these cars had two hinged End Doors on one end.
The hinged end doors were primarily for stage scenery, which is what the cars carried when not carrying horses. Not all horse-equipped baggage cars had scenery doors. PRR had several that also were used for ordinary "express" service when not needed for horses or scenery.
Instead of stopping at the pens (with all of the unloading/reloading issues) required for rest stops for cattle and sheep, cars carrying hogs could be flushed using multi-head sprayers. One more thing to freeze up in the winter.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.