henry6 If Eastern and Delta and all the airlines are doing such business...then you can understand the value and success of Acela and Regional and imagine how badly congested and unsafe the skies would be without Amtrak! Probably more room for expansion on the ground than in the air, too.
If Eastern and Delta and all the airlines are doing such business...then you can understand the value and success of Acela and Regional and imagine how badly congested and unsafe the skies would be without Amtrak! Probably more room for expansion on the ground than in the air, too.
Maybe Delta is doing such business but Eastern has been gone only since January 19, 1991 - 20 years.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
I don 't see what value "passenger minutes saved" would have except as a measure of success vs. no time saved. You cannot put a dollar value on it as a return if you don't know the value of the minute for the passenger, thus it can only be used as a cost per minute saved but there is no value you can judge it against. It seems to be just another statistic that can be generated for conversation; to me such statistics are good only for baseball announcers who have to fill time.
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blue streak 1 Paul_D_North_Jr: . . . It would be interesting to see a list of running time improvement projects for/ from the existing NorthEast Corridor's alignment and location, ranked in order of the most time gained per $ - or more accurately, $Million or even $Billion - involved. Such a list much already exist someplace . . . Amtrak does not directly provide those figures however under the Amtrak reports the NEC improvement plan lists both costs and minutes saved. Maybe some one will do the math. http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=Page&pagename=am%2FLayout&p=1237608345018&cid=1241245669222 However I would like to see these figures go a step further. Why not passenger minutes saved per dollar spent? If I spend $10M to gain 10 minutes for just one train instead of 10 trains which is the better money spent? The Amtrak request to upgrade the NEC from the west portal of the north river tunnels to south of Trenton appears to follow my premise? something like 13 minutes savings for a heck of alot of passengers including all the NJ Transit commuters into NYP. Several restrictions. . . . 2. How do you factor in the additional passengers attracted?
Paul_D_North_Jr: . . . It would be interesting to see a list of running time improvement projects for/ from the existing NorthEast Corridor's alignment and location, ranked in order of the most time gained per $ - or more accurately, $Million or even $Billion - involved. Such a list much already exist someplace . . .
Amtrak does not directly provide those figures however under the Amtrak reports the NEC improvement plan lists both costs and minutes saved. Maybe some one will do the math.
http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=Page&pagename=am%2FLayout&p=1237608345018&cid=1241245669222
However I would like to see these figures go a step further. Why not passenger minutes saved per dollar spent? If I spend $10M to gain 10 minutes for just one train instead of 10 trains which is the better money spent? The Amtrak request to upgrade the NEC from the west portal of the north river tunnels to south of Trenton appears to follow my premise? something like 13 minutes savings for a heck of alot of passengers including all the NJ Transit commuters into NYP.
Several restrictions. . . .
2. How do you factor in the additional passengers attracted?
2. Yes, it's 'dynamic' - not 'static' - but by basing it on current passengers, it's 1) grounded in reality, and 2) they get the most benefit, which 3) tends to attract more there. (See course in "Linear Programming", I think it's called.)
- Paul North.
Sam1 Of course, one can rig the outcome by changing the variables. The choice would be a winner if both competitors were required to survive without direct government subsidies. Unfortunately, this is not the case.
Of course, one can rig the outcome by changing the variables. The choice would be a winner if both competitors were required to survive without direct government subsidies. Unfortunately, this is not the case.
Why not indirect?
Winner would be walking!
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zugmann Bottom line: either mode is better depending on the conditions and variables you put in place. So these "race" ideas are useless. Take the train or the plane (or a donkey leading a hound)....it's having that choice that is the winner.
Bottom line: either mode is better depending on the conditions and variables you put in place.
So these "race" ideas are useless. Take the train or the plane (or a donkey leading a hound)....it's having that choice that is the winner.
Depends on your perspective. Putting together the information for a hypothetical race forces one to check out the facts. It is amazing how many people think that they know about a transport market only to be proven wrong when the facts are presented. And it is fun.
henry6 Flushing out is a bad example....hassle to LaGuardia is just as bad or good as the LIRR to Penn Sta. But the truth is that Metroliner and Regional successor did the Eastern Shuttle in and Acela is doing well on its own. With the market driven pricing of Amtrak ticketing, the sooner you make your plans and reservations, the better the price!
Flushing out is a bad example....hassle to LaGuardia is just as bad or good as the LIRR to Penn Sta. But the truth is that Metroliner and Regional successor did the Eastern Shuttle in and Acela is doing well on its own. With the market driven pricing of Amtrak ticketing, the sooner you make your plans and reservations, the better the price!
My uncle lived at 159XX Station Road in Flushing. We could get to LaGuardia by car a lot quicker than we could get to Penn Station on the LIRR. And I took the train into the city practically every day whilst visiting my uncle. Moreover, I lived in New York for more than eight years and return practically every year to visit friends and family. I am not unfamiliar with NYC.
The Eastern Shuttle was not done in. Eastern Airlines, along with many others, collapsed because it could not make the transition to a competitive air market. The shuttle was taken up by successor airlines. It still operates, although I am not sure that U.S. Airways calls it the shuttle anymore. In any case, U.S. Airways has hourly departures from LGA to DCA all day long, just like the shuttle.
henry6 But Sam, Metroliner succeded and Acela is such a success because the airplane doesn't make it on this corridor...paper schedules were one thing, but air congestion coupled with getting to and from the airports...have given the edge to Acela and Regional Rail. If air were supreme, we wouldn't have Amtrak's NE Corridor.
But Sam, Metroliner succeded and Acela is such a success because the airplane doesn't make it on this corridor...paper schedules were one thing, but air congestion coupled with getting to and from the airports...have given the edge to Acela and Regional Rail. If air were supreme, we wouldn't have Amtrak's NE Corridor.
The Shuttle offers 32 flights a day between LGA and DCA. Delta offers 26 flights a day between the same points. United has 38 flights a day between LGA and BWI or DCA. And there are many more offerings by Continental, American, etc. These numbers don't support the argument that the airplane does not make it in the corridor. The air corridor is congested. Nevertheless, the on-time performance figures for LGA and DCA are approximately 80 to 82 per cent.
Getting to National Airport in Washington is a breeze. Just take the Metro. Getting to LGA is a bit more challenging, but if you allow sufficient time to do so, you can catch a bus right outside of Grand Central that will get you to the airport in approximately 40 minutes for $13.
The NEC is not a success because of New York and Washington. It is successful, assuming one is not considering the financial picture, because most of the passengers travel between the end points and an intermediate city, i.e. New York to Philadelphia, Philadelphia to Washington, etc. Although Amtrak claims that it has more than 50 per cent of the air/train travelers on the NEC, it does not have more than 50 per cent of the end point travelers. Its claim is based on the fact that it has high loads between the intermediate cities. Amtrak claims that it has more than 50 per cent of the air/rail travelers on the NEC, but that is different than to claim that it has more than 50 per cent of the air/rail travelers between New York and Washington. It does not make the segment figures available in its monthly reports, but I have ridden the Acela between Philadelphia and New York or Washington and New York. The load factors were higher between Philadelphia and New York, with relatively light loads south of Philadelphia.
As I said, between New York center city and Washingon center city, I would take the train. But if I lived on Long Island, I would probably opt to take the plane.
Phoebe Vet Henry: Notice that she also lowered the air price and time by eliminating the two bags I put in the challenge. I understand using the business class on the Acela price because this thread specifically addressed the Acela, but the train would be even cheaper ($49) if you went coach on the NE Regional. The 6:00 AM Acela is $162. The 8:50 AM is $186.
Henry:
Notice that she also lowered the air price and time by eliminating the two bags I put in the challenge.
I understand using the business class on the Acela price because this thread specifically addressed the Acela, but the train would be even cheaper ($49) if you went coach on the NE Regional. The 6:00 AM Acela is $162. The 8:50 AM is $186.
As I pointed out, the majority of travelers, whether on the shuttle or Acela, are business persons who are not carrying two bags. You can, of course, rig the outcome anyway you want by changing the variables.
Your scenario has the person departing from a downtown hotel. It would take longer to get to Penn Station from downtown, unless you planned to get the train from Newark, in which case it would still take longer to get to the rail station than to get from the Roosevelt to Penn Station.
If you leave at 6:00 a.m., the flight takes only 59 minutes. And you can get a fare for as little as $149. In fact, if your going to one of the northern suburbs, you can get a flight to BWI for $79.
Downtown to downtown, I would opt for the train. If I lived in Flushing, however, I probably would fly. Ditto if I lived in Mountain Lakes, NJ. I had family in both communities. Frankly, liked Flushing best of all.
EDITED AT 7:20 PM:
By blue streak 1: There are 2 S curves one near Elizabeth and the other location I cannot recal right now south of Elizabeth. At one time both were 60 MPH but now?? and both are in the AMTRAK upgrade proposal
Don't know if this is the one you mean, but as oltmannd reminded me a couple years ago, there is a 45 ? MPH curve at SHORE tower, with another though shallower one a little further northeast - in the near northeastern part of Philadelphia - a little southeast of the Frankford/ Bridesburg neighborhoods, at these Lat./ Long. coords.: N 40.00132 W 75.09327
I can see a way to relocate that curve to ease it and speed up this portion of the line considerably: Extend the existing tangent that's off to the northeast - parallel to and a little south of Torresdale Ave. -about 1 mile to the southwest, so that it intersects and returns to the existing line at about where I Street crosses under the tracks, [EDIT] or maybe further west at about Front St./ St. Christopher's Hospital for Children. Yes, it would require disrupting and clearing several city blocks. But none of them are gems, and it would make an ideal Transit-Oriented Development / urban redevelopment project: SEPTA's Market-Frankford Elevated Line runs right over the middle of the proposed line change area, and I-95 and the Betsy Ross Bridge over to NJ is only a few blocks to the southeast, with numerous entrance and exit ramps to Aramingo Ave. and Richmond Ave. EDIT: This might also make a good multi-modal passenger stop: SEPTA Trenton Line commuter train - it's a long distance between the N. Phila. and Bridesburg stations; SEPTA El train; SEPTA bus; I-95 car; Amtrak Regional train (instead of/ in addition to North Phila. station), etc. In a far-off (out ?) scenario, I could see this station largely supplanting 30th Street, because it would have better access to people arriving/ departing via I-95. [END EDIT] Anybody interested ?
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Cricketer Returning, gently, to the railway tracks of the North-East corridor where are the slow bits that could benefit from a 10-20mph upgrade?
Returning, gently, to the railway tracks of the North-East corridor where are the slow bits that could benefit from a 10-20mph upgrade?
There are 2 S curves one near Elizabeth and the other location I cannot recal right now south of Elizabeth. At one time both were 60 MPH but now?? and both are in the AMTRAK upgrade proposal
schlimm Phoebe Vet: Mr. Railman: How about if you and I start at a hotel in lower Manhattan with two suit cases each. We will leave at the same time and meet at a hotel in down town DC. You fly and I'll travel by Amtrak. We will then see who gets there first, and who spent the most money. Be sure to count all the point to point transportation, such as rental cars, buses or taxis and all bag fees. Include in the time, all the time spent standing in line at the airport to get strip searched and waiting for your bags. THEN you can tell us whether or not train travel is a joke. Sounds like a good segment for "The Great Race" although I would not bet on the guy who is flying.
Phoebe Vet: Mr. Railman: How about if you and I start at a hotel in lower Manhattan with two suit cases each. We will leave at the same time and meet at a hotel in down town DC. You fly and I'll travel by Amtrak. We will then see who gets there first, and who spent the most money. Be sure to count all the point to point transportation, such as rental cars, buses or taxis and all bag fees. Include in the time, all the time spent standing in line at the airport to get strip searched and waiting for your bags. THEN you can tell us whether or not train travel is a joke.
Mr. Railman:
How about if you and I start at a hotel in lower Manhattan with two suit cases each. We will leave at the same time and meet at a hotel in down town DC. You fly and I'll travel by Amtrak.
We will then see who gets there first, and who spent the most money. Be sure to count all the point to point transportation, such as rental cars, buses or taxis and all bag fees. Include in the time, all the time spent standing in line at the airport to get strip searched and waiting for your bags.
THEN you can tell us whether or not train travel is a joke.
Sounds like a good segment for "The Great Race" although I would not bet on the guy who is flying.
And it's the plane by a nose! A photo finish!
Let's start the race from the Roosevelt Hotel. I have stayed there on many occasions. It is a great hotel in midtown Manhattan, near Grand Central Station, and it is favored by many business people.
A taxi from the Roosevelt to LaGuardia takes an average of 30 minutes, according to information furnished by the airport and the New York Taxi Commission. The average fare is $27.00, again according to the New York Taxi Commission.
According to the TSA, the average times required to clear security at LaGuardia at 7:30 a.m. on a Wednesday morning, which is a representative business day, range from five to 13 minutes. If one gets to the airport with 30 minutes to spare, she should have no trouble clearing security and making it to the gate on time if she has purchased an on-line ticket, which most people do these days.
Our pro-forma passenger, who is staying at the Roosevelt but is attending a conference at the Willard Hotel in Washington, has one carry-on, which is normal for business people traveling between New York and Washington. If they have two suitcases, however, as long as they are sized properly, one could go under the seat and the other in the overhead bin.
The chock to chock time on the 8:00 a.m. Shuttle from New York to Washington is one hour and nineteen minutes. The fare for May 18th is $200.
Deplaning in Washington should take no longer than 10 minutes, with another 10 minutes to get to the train (subway) station for the ride into the district. Assuming our business person is going to the Willard Hotel for her conference, it will take approximately 17 minutes to get from the airport station to the stop closest to the Willard. It will take maybe five minutes to walk to the hotel. The cost of the subway is $1.60.
Getting from the Roosevelt to Penn Station by taxi, which I have done often, should take approximately 10 to 12 minutes on a Wednesday morning according to the New York Taxi Commission. The fare averages $7.75, again according to the New York Taxi Commission. One should be on the Penn Station concourse at least 12 to 15 minutes before train time so as to be able to board and get settled timely.
The travel time on the 8:00 a.m. Acela from New York to Washington is two hours and 48 minutes. The cost of a business class seat is $186.
De-training and getting to the Metro stop at Union Station in Washington should take no longer than 10 minutes. The travel time from Union Station to the stop closest to the Willard is six minutes, with another five minutes to walk to the hotel.
The total cost to go from the Roosevelt Hotel in New York to the Willard Hotel in Washington by surface and air is $228.60. The total cost to take the Acela, including local transport, is $195.35. The out-of-pocket savings for the Acela passenger would be $33.25.
The price of the plane ticket covers the airline's proportional costs and produces a small return for the shareholders. The price of the Acela ticket covers the proportional share of the operating costs and contributes to the NEC capital costs, but it is not sufficient to cover all of the allocable costs. A conservative estimate of the capital subsidy for the Acela passenger between New York and Washington ranges from $28.58 to $51.20 per person. The actual amount, which Amtrak does not disclose, would depend on a number of variables, but if it charged the full cost of the service between New York and Washington, the price of an Acela ticket (business class) could be $223.93 to $246.55. In addition, Amtrak pays no fuel taxes, power taxes, or property taxes. When these factors are included in the numbers, the real cost of the Acela is somewhat higher than the airline fare.
The door to door travel time on the shuttle would be approximately 194 minutes. The door to door time on the Acela would be approximately 201 minutes. Both trips would be lengthened a bit because of waits to hail a cab in New York and get local transit in DC, but they should be equal for both parties.
Assuming cost is a consideration, the seven minute flying time advantage does not appear to be worth it. However, there are many variables associated with travel between New York and Washington. Comparisons are difficult to make, although they are fun. Each traveler's situation is different. For example, if I lived in Manhattan, I would take the train if I were going to center city Washington, but if I were going to one of the Virginia suburbs, where many offices are located, I would fly. If I lived on Long Island or in West Chester County or in New Jersey, where many business managers and professionals reside, I would probably opt for the plane as opposed to making my way to Penn Station New York or Penn Station Newark.
Perhaps I should have looked this up before posting my previous post.
Here are numbers from the Amtrak timetable, giving a total distance of 225.2 miles from Penn Station to Washington Union Station:
0.0
New York Penn
8.6
Hudson
7.1
89.2
West Philadelphia
1.5
136.0
Washington
So, the Pennsy charged through passengers for three miles they did not travel–and still went broke.
Johnny
There is also a milage difference between Newark and NY...acutal PRR milage was from Exchange Pl. Jersey City. (MP0) to Philadelphia. NYP is MP0 and is calculated only as far as where it intersects or joins the old main line. There is a lot of trackage in the railroad system where lines overlapped onto or used portions of lines mixing up or changing mile post designations...Erie from Harriman to Howels via Middletown or via Campbell Hall had two different milages thun NJT's Port Jervis trains change milages; Denville on the former DL&W has two different milages from Hoboken because the Boonton Line was about 2 miles longer...but the Boonton Line MP is actually wrong today because of the change from DL&W to Erie Greenwood Lake Div with mileposts from JC instead of Hoboken and now tripping across to the former DL&W Montclair Line. which...well, you get my drift. There are literally thousand of misapllied milages because of situations like the above because of abandonmdents, mergers, and other route changes.
schlimm Once again, it is important to get the facts. 1. The distance from Washington Union Station to Boston South Station is actually 458.6 miles (from a PRR timetable, Amtrak's doesn't show the distance). 2. Acela takes 6h 40 m, so the average speed, including the 11 intermediate stops) is 68.75 mph.
Once again, it is important to get the facts.
1. The distance from Washington Union Station to Boston South Station is actually 458.6 miles (from a PRR timetable, Amtrak's doesn't show the distance).
2. Acela takes 6h 40 m, so the average speed, including the 11 intermediate stops) is 68.75 mph.
Phoebe Vet Mr. Railman: How about if you and I start at a hotel in lower Manhattan with two suit cases each. We will leave at the same time and meet at a hotel in down town DC. You fly and I'll travel by Amtrak. We will then see who gets there first, and who spent the most money. Be sure to count all the point to point transportation, such as rental cars, buses or taxis and all bag fees. Include in the time, all the time spent standing in line at the airport to get strip searched and waiting for your bags. THEN you can tell us whether or not train travel is a joke.
Cricketer It was me that mentioned station throats - and the Peterborough example illustrates a good few points. 1. Clearing the track and having a high speed through service for non-stop trains is a good thing esp if many trains don't actually stop at the station, as was the case before at Peterbrough which in the 1970s was a relatively small city employing people locally 4. You could have platforms on the fast tracks, though then you need to be careful to make sure passengers keep back from high speed trains passing
It was me that mentioned station throats - and the Peterborough example illustrates a good few points.
1. Clearing the track and having a high speed through service for non-stop trains is a good thing esp if many trains don't actually stop at the station, as was the case before at Peterbrough which in the 1970s was a relatively small city employing people locally
4. You could have platforms on the fast tracks, though then you need to be careful to make sure passengers keep back from high speed trains passing
If the fast tracks are straight thru with no platform then speed is no problem. A double track HSR can have 80 MPH turn outs in and out of the platforms to allow for slowiing, stopping, and acceleraation. That IMHO is the best way to design any staation whether HSR or conventional rail. No worring about passengers being run over and freight trains not clearing the platform + a fence can isolate station track from main track. This how JPB's OaklaND cOLLISELIUM STATION FOR aMTRAK IS CONSTRUCTED.
2. This is less of a good idea when most trains stop at the station. Peterbrough's high speed commuter service to London (created by the high speed trains to London) meant that more trains needed to stop, at which point the through lines were less useful.
3. You have to design the station and signalling correclty. Peterbrough suffers from trains having to slow down for the turnouts to and from the platforms.
5. Modern trains accelerate and decelerate pretty quickly now, so even if all trains stop the exit (esp) speeds from platforms through turnouts need to reflect this.
6.Cab signalling is the ultimate solution - eg Lille in France where trains head through at 140mph (or so) and others stop at the platforms without too much extra slow running. The cab-signalling makes sure the train heading for the platform turnout slows down (and the brakes go on if the speed exceeds the limit).
Paul_D_North_Jr "+1" to Don's post above - couldn't have said it better myself - both paragraphs, too ! It would be interesting to see a list of running time improvement projects for/ from the existing NorthEast Corridor's alignment and location, ranked in order of the most time gained per $ - or more accurately, $Million or even $Billion - involved. Such a list much already exist someplace . . . - Paul North.
"+1" to Don's post above - couldn't have said it better myself - both paragraphs, too !
It would be interesting to see a list of running time improvement projects for/ from the existing NorthEast Corridor's alignment and location, ranked in order of the most time gained per $ - or more accurately, $Million or even $Billion - involved. Such a list much already exist someplace . . .
Several restrictions.
1. Not everyone is going to travel the whole distance.
3. There would be a need to have number of passengers for each trip leg.
The need to upgrade the slow orders more than gaining top speed is paramount IMHO. Slow orders also waste energy speeding up and slowing down.
One observation: In Europe the station throats are usually much higher speeds than here in the USA. Someone mentioned a station in the UK as an example. Again very well spent money? Getting in and out of the station seems like a no-brainer?
It is a matter of time saved not speed that comes in at the end of the dday.
Got to run.
It's all known as progress. There is an continual acceleration of change as time passes. The reality is that few people (outside of these forums) would regard a real rail service that can cut the time between major metro areas to under 4 hours for a distance of 400 miles as a fantasy. Such a service is more than competitive with air and takes pressure off the roads. But I guess there are some who prefer to slow down.
The discussion of Acela here, coupled with the concept of HSR, and the complains elsewhere about the slowness of the internet (problems aside) I find all of the same ilk: speed today vs whatever yesterday. On land 200 -300 years ago, a walk was the way to travel with a trotting horse or oxen a wee bit better; riding the waters with the current was fast until the train came along; then the automobile allowed everyone a 15 mph clip while the iron horse and the car grew to speeds close to 100 mph; the commercial airplane flew in in excess of 100 mph to several hundreds of miles per hour. So we look for ways to trim minutes and second from a trip. Likewise, that walk of two to three hundreds of years ago carried the mails which had replaced the likes of smoke signals and drums...how long did it take the cannon to relay the marking of the opening of the Erie Canal?...and gave way to the stage coaches and the pony express; this was followed by the telegraph, the telephone, radio/tv, internet, which meant you could type a message push send and within seconds we are communicating huge amounts of information around the world. And now we are mincing minute fractions of seconds to the point we virtually expect a reply the microsecond we push send. We have to slow down and look at what speed is, what it can and does accomplish, and both the cost and price against the return. How impatient I am to push "post" but less so to receive the rebukes.
The Boston to Washington time and average speed don't really mean that much - not much ridership on that OD pair. The train really serves two markets: NYC south and NYC to Boston. The train's market share in these markets shows that it's a formidable competitor to the available alternatives.
Wanna make it better? Have $117B laying around you don't know what to do with? That's the price tag for a new, HSR NEC that Amtrak is proposing. That's "only" $390 for every man, woman and child in the US...
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
You are all proving the perceptions vs the realities of speed mean HSR is an illusion, a dream, a political buzz word unless expectations are stated and actual results calculated. Again, I am not opposed to speed, but warn that we must understand what it really is and what it really will do and what it will really cost agains expectations and executions.
As for speeding up the Hell Gate Bridge Route...I am sure the track speed is ok but comeing down off the bridge into an interlocking with the LIRR and Sunnyside Yard leads, then into the East River tunnel, means speeds aren't going to be picke up much if at all.
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