Returning, gently, to the railway tracks of the North-East corridor where are the slow bits that could benefit from a 10-20mph upgrade?
schlimm Phoebe Vet: Mr. Railman: How about if you and I start at a hotel in lower Manhattan with two suit cases each. We will leave at the same time and meet at a hotel in down town DC. You fly and I'll travel by Amtrak. We will then see who gets there first, and who spent the most money. Be sure to count all the point to point transportation, such as rental cars, buses or taxis and all bag fees. Include in the time, all the time spent standing in line at the airport to get strip searched and waiting for your bags. THEN you can tell us whether or not train travel is a joke. Sounds like a good segment for "The Great Race" although I would not bet on the guy who is flying.
Phoebe Vet: Mr. Railman: How about if you and I start at a hotel in lower Manhattan with two suit cases each. We will leave at the same time and meet at a hotel in down town DC. You fly and I'll travel by Amtrak. We will then see who gets there first, and who spent the most money. Be sure to count all the point to point transportation, such as rental cars, buses or taxis and all bag fees. Include in the time, all the time spent standing in line at the airport to get strip searched and waiting for your bags. THEN you can tell us whether or not train travel is a joke.
Mr. Railman:
How about if you and I start at a hotel in lower Manhattan with two suit cases each. We will leave at the same time and meet at a hotel in down town DC. You fly and I'll travel by Amtrak.
We will then see who gets there first, and who spent the most money. Be sure to count all the point to point transportation, such as rental cars, buses or taxis and all bag fees. Include in the time, all the time spent standing in line at the airport to get strip searched and waiting for your bags.
THEN you can tell us whether or not train travel is a joke.
Sounds like a good segment for "The Great Race" although I would not bet on the guy who is flying.
And it's the plane by a nose! A photo finish!
Let's start the race from the Roosevelt Hotel. I have stayed there on many occasions. It is a great hotel in midtown Manhattan, near Grand Central Station, and it is favored by many business people.
A taxi from the Roosevelt to LaGuardia takes an average of 30 minutes, according to information furnished by the airport and the New York Taxi Commission. The average fare is $27.00, again according to the New York Taxi Commission.
According to the TSA, the average times required to clear security at LaGuardia at 7:30 a.m. on a Wednesday morning, which is a representative business day, range from five to 13 minutes. If one gets to the airport with 30 minutes to spare, she should have no trouble clearing security and making it to the gate on time if she has purchased an on-line ticket, which most people do these days.
Our pro-forma passenger, who is staying at the Roosevelt but is attending a conference at the Willard Hotel in Washington, has one carry-on, which is normal for business people traveling between New York and Washington. If they have two suitcases, however, as long as they are sized properly, one could go under the seat and the other in the overhead bin.
The chock to chock time on the 8:00 a.m. Shuttle from New York to Washington is one hour and nineteen minutes. The fare for May 18th is $200.
Deplaning in Washington should take no longer than 10 minutes, with another 10 minutes to get to the train (subway) station for the ride into the district. Assuming our business person is going to the Willard Hotel for her conference, it will take approximately 17 minutes to get from the airport station to the stop closest to the Willard. It will take maybe five minutes to walk to the hotel. The cost of the subway is $1.60.
Getting from the Roosevelt to Penn Station by taxi, which I have done often, should take approximately 10 to 12 minutes on a Wednesday morning according to the New York Taxi Commission. The fare averages $7.75, again according to the New York Taxi Commission. One should be on the Penn Station concourse at least 12 to 15 minutes before train time so as to be able to board and get settled timely.
The travel time on the 8:00 a.m. Acela from New York to Washington is two hours and 48 minutes. The cost of a business class seat is $186.
De-training and getting to the Metro stop at Union Station in Washington should take no longer than 10 minutes. The travel time from Union Station to the stop closest to the Willard is six minutes, with another five minutes to walk to the hotel.
The total cost to go from the Roosevelt Hotel in New York to the Willard Hotel in Washington by surface and air is $228.60. The total cost to take the Acela, including local transport, is $195.35. The out-of-pocket savings for the Acela passenger would be $33.25.
The price of the plane ticket covers the airline's proportional costs and produces a small return for the shareholders. The price of the Acela ticket covers the proportional share of the operating costs and contributes to the NEC capital costs, but it is not sufficient to cover all of the allocable costs. A conservative estimate of the capital subsidy for the Acela passenger between New York and Washington ranges from $28.58 to $51.20 per person. The actual amount, which Amtrak does not disclose, would depend on a number of variables, but if it charged the full cost of the service between New York and Washington, the price of an Acela ticket (business class) could be $223.93 to $246.55. In addition, Amtrak pays no fuel taxes, power taxes, or property taxes. When these factors are included in the numbers, the real cost of the Acela is somewhat higher than the airline fare.
The door to door travel time on the shuttle would be approximately 194 minutes. The door to door time on the Acela would be approximately 201 minutes. Both trips would be lengthened a bit because of waits to hail a cab in New York and get local transit in DC, but they should be equal for both parties.
Assuming cost is a consideration, the seven minute flying time advantage does not appear to be worth it. However, there are many variables associated with travel between New York and Washington. Comparisons are difficult to make, although they are fun. Each traveler's situation is different. For example, if I lived in Manhattan, I would take the train if I were going to center city Washington, but if I were going to one of the Virginia suburbs, where many offices are located, I would fly. If I lived on Long Island or in West Chester County or in New Jersey, where many business managers and professionals reside, I would probably opt for the plane as opposed to making my way to Penn Station New York or Penn Station Newark.
Cricketer Returning, gently, to the railway tracks of the North-East corridor where are the slow bits that could benefit from a 10-20mph upgrade?
There are 2 S curves one near Elizabeth and the other location I cannot recal right now south of Elizabeth. At one time both were 60 MPH but now?? and both are in the AMTRAK upgrade proposal
But Sam, Metroliner succeded and Acela is such a success because the airplane doesn't make it on this corridor...paper schedules were one thing, but air congestion coupled with getting to and from the airports...have given the edge to Acela and Regional Rail. If air were supreme, we wouldn't have Amtrak's NE Corridor.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
Henry:
Notice that she also lowered the air price and time by eliminating the two bags I put in the challenge.
I understand using the business class on the Acela price because this thread specifically addressed the Acela, but the train would be even cheaper ($49) if you went coach on the NE Regional. The 6:00 AM Acela is $162. The 8:50 AM is $186.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
EDITED AT 7:20 PM:
By blue streak 1: There are 2 S curves one near Elizabeth and the other location I cannot recal right now south of Elizabeth. At one time both were 60 MPH but now?? and both are in the AMTRAK upgrade proposal
Don't know if this is the one you mean, but as oltmannd reminded me a couple years ago, there is a 45 ? MPH curve at SHORE tower, with another though shallower one a little further northeast - in the near northeastern part of Philadelphia - a little southeast of the Frankford/ Bridesburg neighborhoods, at these Lat./ Long. coords.: N 40.00132 W 75.09327
I can see a way to relocate that curve to ease it and speed up this portion of the line considerably: Extend the existing tangent that's off to the northeast - parallel to and a little south of Torresdale Ave. -about 1 mile to the southwest, so that it intersects and returns to the existing line at about where I Street crosses under the tracks, [EDIT] or maybe further west at about Front St./ St. Christopher's Hospital for Children. Yes, it would require disrupting and clearing several city blocks. But none of them are gems, and it would make an ideal Transit-Oriented Development / urban redevelopment project: SEPTA's Market-Frankford Elevated Line runs right over the middle of the proposed line change area, and I-95 and the Betsy Ross Bridge over to NJ is only a few blocks to the southeast, with numerous entrance and exit ramps to Aramingo Ave. and Richmond Ave. EDIT: This might also make a good multi-modal passenger stop: SEPTA Trenton Line commuter train - it's a long distance between the N. Phila. and Bridesburg stations; SEPTA El train; SEPTA bus; I-95 car; Amtrak Regional train (instead of/ in addition to North Phila. station), etc. In a far-off (out ?) scenario, I could see this station largely supplanting 30th Street, because it would have better access to people arriving/ departing via I-95. [END EDIT] Anybody interested ?
Phoebe Vet Henry: Notice that she also lowered the air price and time by eliminating the two bags I put in the challenge. I understand using the business class on the Acela price because this thread specifically addressed the Acela, but the train would be even cheaper ($49) if you went coach on the NE Regional. The 6:00 AM Acela is $162. The 8:50 AM is $186.
As I pointed out, the majority of travelers, whether on the shuttle or Acela, are business persons who are not carrying two bags. You can, of course, rig the outcome anyway you want by changing the variables.
Your scenario has the person departing from a downtown hotel. It would take longer to get to Penn Station from downtown, unless you planned to get the train from Newark, in which case it would still take longer to get to the rail station than to get from the Roosevelt to Penn Station.
If you leave at 6:00 a.m., the flight takes only 59 minutes. And you can get a fare for as little as $149. In fact, if your going to one of the northern suburbs, you can get a flight to BWI for $79.
Downtown to downtown, I would opt for the train. If I lived in Flushing, however, I probably would fly. Ditto if I lived in Mountain Lakes, NJ. I had family in both communities. Frankly, liked Flushing best of all.
Flushing out is a bad example....hassle to LaGuardia is just as bad or good as the LIRR to Penn Sta. But the truth is that Metroliner and Regional successor did the Eastern Shuttle in and Acela is doing well on its own. With the market driven pricing of Amtrak ticketing, the sooner you make your plans and reservations, the better the price!
henry6 But Sam, Metroliner succeded and Acela is such a success because the airplane doesn't make it on this corridor...paper schedules were one thing, but air congestion coupled with getting to and from the airports...have given the edge to Acela and Regional Rail. If air were supreme, we wouldn't have Amtrak's NE Corridor.
The Shuttle offers 32 flights a day between LGA and DCA. Delta offers 26 flights a day between the same points. United has 38 flights a day between LGA and BWI or DCA. And there are many more offerings by Continental, American, etc. These numbers don't support the argument that the airplane does not make it in the corridor. The air corridor is congested. Nevertheless, the on-time performance figures for LGA and DCA are approximately 80 to 82 per cent.
Getting to National Airport in Washington is a breeze. Just take the Metro. Getting to LGA is a bit more challenging, but if you allow sufficient time to do so, you can catch a bus right outside of Grand Central that will get you to the airport in approximately 40 minutes for $13.
The NEC is not a success because of New York and Washington. It is successful, assuming one is not considering the financial picture, because most of the passengers travel between the end points and an intermediate city, i.e. New York to Philadelphia, Philadelphia to Washington, etc. Although Amtrak claims that it has more than 50 per cent of the air/train travelers on the NEC, it does not have more than 50 per cent of the end point travelers. Its claim is based on the fact that it has high loads between the intermediate cities. Amtrak claims that it has more than 50 per cent of the air/rail travelers on the NEC, but that is different than to claim that it has more than 50 per cent of the air/rail travelers between New York and Washington. It does not make the segment figures available in its monthly reports, but I have ridden the Acela between Philadelphia and New York or Washington and New York. The load factors were higher between Philadelphia and New York, with relatively light loads south of Philadelphia.
As I said, between New York center city and Washingon center city, I would take the train. But if I lived on Long Island, I would probably opt to take the plane.
Bottom line: either mode is better depending on the conditions and variables you put in place.
So these "race" ideas are useless. Take the train or the plane (or a donkey leading a hound)....it's having that choice that is the winner.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
henry6 Flushing out is a bad example....hassle to LaGuardia is just as bad or good as the LIRR to Penn Sta. But the truth is that Metroliner and Regional successor did the Eastern Shuttle in and Acela is doing well on its own. With the market driven pricing of Amtrak ticketing, the sooner you make your plans and reservations, the better the price!
My uncle lived at 159XX Station Road in Flushing. We could get to LaGuardia by car a lot quicker than we could get to Penn Station on the LIRR. And I took the train into the city practically every day whilst visiting my uncle. Moreover, I lived in New York for more than eight years and return practically every year to visit friends and family. I am not unfamiliar with NYC.
The Eastern Shuttle was not done in. Eastern Airlines, along with many others, collapsed because it could not make the transition to a competitive air market. The shuttle was taken up by successor airlines. It still operates, although I am not sure that U.S. Airways calls it the shuttle anymore. In any case, U.S. Airways has hourly departures from LGA to DCA all day long, just like the shuttle.
zugmann Bottom line: either mode is better depending on the conditions and variables you put in place. So these "race" ideas are useless. Take the train or the plane (or a donkey leading a hound)....it's having that choice that is the winner.
Depends on your perspective. Putting together the information for a hypothetical race forces one to check out the facts. It is amazing how many people think that they know about a transport market only to be proven wrong when the facts are presented. And it is fun.
Of course, one can rig the outcome by changing the variables. The choice would be a winner if both competitors were required to survive without direct government subsidies. Unfortunately, this is not the case.
Sam1 Of course, one can rig the outcome by changing the variables. The choice would be a winner if both competitors were required to survive without direct government subsidies. Unfortunately, this is not the case.
Why not indirect?
Winner would be walking!
If Eastern and Delta and all the airlines are doing such business...then you can understand the value and success of Acela and Regional and imagine how badly congested and unsafe the skies would be without Amtrak! Probably more room for expansion on the ground than in the air, too.
blue streak 1 Paul_D_North_Jr: . . . It would be interesting to see a list of running time improvement projects for/ from the existing NorthEast Corridor's alignment and location, ranked in order of the most time gained per $ - or more accurately, $Million or even $Billion - involved. Such a list much already exist someplace . . . Amtrak does not directly provide those figures however under the Amtrak reports the NEC improvement plan lists both costs and minutes saved. Maybe some one will do the math. http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=Page&pagename=am%2FLayout&p=1237608345018&cid=1241245669222 However I would like to see these figures go a step further. Why not passenger minutes saved per dollar spent? If I spend $10M to gain 10 minutes for just one train instead of 10 trains which is the better money spent? The Amtrak request to upgrade the NEC from the west portal of the north river tunnels to south of Trenton appears to follow my premise? something like 13 minutes savings for a heck of alot of passengers including all the NJ Transit commuters into NYP. Several restrictions. . . . 2. How do you factor in the additional passengers attracted?
Paul_D_North_Jr: . . . It would be interesting to see a list of running time improvement projects for/ from the existing NorthEast Corridor's alignment and location, ranked in order of the most time gained per $ - or more accurately, $Million or even $Billion - involved. Such a list much already exist someplace . . .
Amtrak does not directly provide those figures however under the Amtrak reports the NEC improvement plan lists both costs and minutes saved. Maybe some one will do the math.
http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=Page&pagename=am%2FLayout&p=1237608345018&cid=1241245669222
However I would like to see these figures go a step further. Why not passenger minutes saved per dollar spent? If I spend $10M to gain 10 minutes for just one train instead of 10 trains which is the better money spent? The Amtrak request to upgrade the NEC from the west portal of the north river tunnels to south of Trenton appears to follow my premise? something like 13 minutes savings for a heck of alot of passengers including all the NJ Transit commuters into NYP.
Several restrictions. . . .
2. How do you factor in the additional passengers attracted?
2. Yes, it's 'dynamic' - not 'static' - but by basing it on current passengers, it's 1) grounded in reality, and 2) they get the most benefit, which 3) tends to attract more there. (See course in "Linear Programming", I think it's called.)
- Paul North.
I don 't see what value "passenger minutes saved" would have except as a measure of success vs. no time saved. You cannot put a dollar value on it as a return if you don't know the value of the minute for the passenger, thus it can only be used as a cost per minute saved but there is no value you can judge it against. It seems to be just another statistic that can be generated for conversation; to me such statistics are good only for baseball announcers who have to fill time.
henry6 If Eastern and Delta and all the airlines are doing such business...then you can understand the value and success of Acela and Regional and imagine how badly congested and unsafe the skies would be without Amtrak! Probably more room for expansion on the ground than in the air, too.
Maybe Delta is doing such business but Eastern has been gone only since January 19, 1991 - 20 years.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Guys- I trimmed out a bunch of posts that got into the *this party verses that party* politics. Let's keep this thread on track please.-Norris user/ moderator
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
schlimm henry6: If Eastern and Delta and all the airlines are doing such business...then you can understand the value and success of Acela and Regional and imagine how badly congested and unsafe the skies would be without Amtrak! Probably more room for expansion on the ground than in the air, too. Maybe Delta is doing such business but Eastern has been gone only since January 19, 1991 - 20 years.
henry6: If Eastern and Delta and all the airlines are doing such business...then you can understand the value and success of Acela and Regional and imagine how badly congested and unsafe the skies would be without Amtrak! Probably more room for expansion on the ground than in the air, too.
For some reason I knew that. For some reason I forgot that. I think maybe because the Eastern Shuttle was the frame of reference for comparing Metroliner to air at that time. But the point remains true...if there weren't Acela and Regional, there would be much more congestions in the skies and onthe highways to the airports!
Absolutely!! People complain about the cost of upgrades to the NEC. What would whatever additional Interstate lanes each direction that are needed to cover traffic for the next 10-15 years cost?
Sam1 . The Eastern Shuttle was not done in. Sam is right however it is more complicated than stated here. As a many year operator of EAL shuttle airplanes lets straighten the record. EAL operated the shuttle on a guaranteeded seat. If you showed up before deprture time and all the seats on first section were taken a back up airplane was initiated even though only might have one passenger. My own experience was 10 passengers on a third section. All fares were collected on board during flight. Passengers just left bags at gate to be loaded on their airplane. Eastern Airline sold the shuttle service to Donald Trump circa 1985 (don't remember the financial details but vaguely remember Trump only had his usual minority interest). It was called the Trump shuttle. Eastern Airlines, along with many others, collapsed because it could not make the transition to a competitive air market. Not so: EAL collasped because of a labor strike and Frank Lorenzo removing all assets of value and transferred good assets to Continental Air Holdings. Books have been written on these very suspect shenanigans. Bankers were also a big player (anyone surprized?). Unable to retire junk debt EAL went under first Chap 11 then to Chap 7. GHW Bush pardoned all the main players just before leaving office (another whole story) The shuttle was taken up by successor airlines. See above -- was called Trump shuttle. The usual Trump almost bankruptcy was about to occurr so US airways bought the assets, pilots, and other employees. ( I know dumb move on my part not to go to Trump shuttle) It still operates, although I am not sure that U.S. Airways calls it the shuttle anymore. In any case, U.S. Airways has hourly departures from LGA to DCA all day long, just like the shuttle. I have not followed how US Air operates it now but I believe ther is no longer a guaranteed seat. What with TSA, required reservations, no-fly list, must pay for ticket, etc etc I certainly would not call it a shuttle. Note: PAN-AM staarted a competing shuttle from the LGA Marine Air terminal which went to Delta when Delta bought some of PAA. In early 70s American AAL tried runniing a shuttle with BAC-111s but did not last long??
.
The Eastern Shuttle was not done in.
Sam is right however it is more complicated than stated here. As a many year operator of EAL shuttle airplanes lets straighten the record. EAL operated the shuttle on a guaranteeded seat. If you showed up before deprture time and all the seats on first section were taken a back up airplane was initiated even though only might have one passenger. My own experience was 10 passengers on a third section. All fares were collected on board during flight. Passengers just left bags at gate to be loaded on their airplane.
Eastern Airline sold the shuttle service to Donald Trump circa 1985 (don't remember the financial details but vaguely remember Trump only had his usual minority interest). It was called the Trump shuttle.
Eastern Airlines, along with many others, collapsed because it could not make the transition to a competitive air market.
Not so: EAL collasped because of a labor strike and Frank Lorenzo removing all assets of value and transferred good assets to Continental Air Holdings. Books have been written on these very suspect shenanigans. Bankers were also a big player (anyone surprized?). Unable to retire junk debt EAL went under first Chap 11 then to Chap 7. GHW Bush pardoned all the main players just before leaving office (another whole story)
The shuttle was taken up by successor airlines.
See above -- was called Trump shuttle. The usual Trump almost bankruptcy was about to occurr so US airways bought the assets, pilots, and other employees. ( I know dumb move on my part not to go to Trump shuttle)
It still operates, although I am not sure that U.S. Airways calls it the shuttle anymore. In any case, U.S. Airways has hourly departures from LGA to DCA all day long, just like the shuttle.
I have not followed how US Air operates it now but I believe ther is no longer a guaranteed seat. What with TSA, required reservations, no-fly list, must pay for ticket, etc etc I certainly would not call it a shuttle.
Note: PAN-AM staarted a competing shuttle from the LGA Marine Air terminal which went to Delta when Delta bought some of PAA. In early 70s American AAL tried runniing a shuttle with BAC-111s but did not last long??
Some other thoughts. Downtown NYC to LGA 30 minute taxi??. Only during a very restricted tiime periods. Could actually get to EWR airport faster thru Holland tunnel but the taxi cost sky high (EAL shuttle also operated out of EWR). Air traffic delays then were sometimes long. Many a day would take over 2 hours block to block. One day when especially bad weather day in DCA and was out of time (8 hr flight time limit) D/H to NYC on Metroliner and beat crew to apartment although we three started from National terminal. That's what got me hooked on idea of HSR
[quote use
[/quote]
How do you know whether or not the plane covers the airline's costs? What is the basis for your conservative estimate of the capital subsidy for the Acela passenger, etc. since Amtrak does not disclose the actual amount? Some inside information?
The labor problems at Eastern Airlines were as much a function of ineffective management as intransigent unions. The sale to Texas Air, which culminated in a variety of corporate missteps, ultimately helped kill Eastern Airlines. But at the end of the day, had the company been properly managed, as was the case for Delta, etc., it might very well have survived. When ever a company goes belly up, the major contributor, in most instances, is ineffective management, although changing markets, technologies, labor relations, etc. can play a significant role.
Southwest Airlines has been successful in part because of excellent labor relations. And they have come about largely because management determined that was how it would be. Contrary to popular believe, Southwest Airlines is a highly unionized organization.
The current shuttles, if you like, don't guarantee a seat. Reservations are required. But given the number of flights and seat available between New York and Washington, air operations appear to emulate the shuttle in substance if not exact form. Flights leave every half hour from LGA to DCA and return. If you cannot get on the 8:00 a.m. flight, there is a pretty good chance that you can get on the 8:30 a.m. flight, especially if you book a few days in advance.
In my scenario, the traveler is departing from mid-town. The estimated time for a taxi to get from Grand Central, which is nearly next door to the Roosevelt Hotel, is 20 to 40 minutes as per the New York Taxi Commission. I split the difference. The cost of a taxi from the Roosevelt Hotel to EWR is nearly $50, again according to the New York Taxi Commission. The time estimate is 40 to 50 minutes.
Of course, one can always point to exceptions, i.e. unusual air traffic delays, power failures on the NEC, etc., and generalize the exceptions. However, at the end of the day, according to the FAA, flights between New York and Washington are on-time about 80 to 82 per cent of the time. Comparatively, for FY10, the Acela was on-time 80.6 per cent.
Don't get me wrong. As I said in my post, if I was going from center city New York to center city Washington, I would take the Acela. But the argument that it beats flying, at least time wise, as argued by several posters, is not correct, and that is what I wanted to show.
[quote user="schlimm"]
The price of the plane ticket covers the airline's proportional costs and produces a small return for the shareholders. The price of the Acela ticket covers the proportional share of the operating costs and contributes to the NEC capital costs, but it is not sufficient to cover all of the allocable costs. A conservative estimate of the capital subsidy for the Acela passenger between New York and Washington ranges from $28.58 to $51.20 per person. The actual amount, which Amtrak does not disclose, would depend on a number of variables, but if it charged the full cost of the service between New York and Washington, the price of an Acela ticket (business class) could be $223.93 to $246.55. In addition, Amtrak pays no fuel taxes, power taxes, or property taxes. When these factors are included in the numbers, the real cost of the Acela is somewhat higher than the airline fare. [/quote]
How do you know whether or not the plane covers the airline's costs? What is the basis for your conservative estimate of the capital subsidy for the Acela passenger, etc. since Amtrak does not disclose the actual amount? Some inside information? [/quote]
Airlines get no direct subsidies, with the exception of the regional carriers that provide service under the Essential Air Services Program. Over the long run they have to cover their costs, or they go out of business. Because they are competitive, investor owned companies, they cannot afford too many lose leaders. I don't think the LGA to DCA operations are a lose leader. If they were not covering their costs on the LGA to DCA runs, they would not be offering the number of flights that they put up every day. Equally important, they have high load factors on the LGA to DCA flights. There are more than 100 flights a day between LGA and DCA or BWI. I'll see if I can get some segment data for U.S. Airways, Delta, etc., which are the major carriers on the LGA to DCA and BWI runs.
The major financial difference between the commercial airlines, bus companies, etc. and Amtrak is the former entities will fail and go out of business if they don't cover their costs. Amtrak, which has lost more than $25 billion since its inception, plus opportunity costs totally $71.9 billion, is immune to investor forces. Had it been forced to operate like its competitors, which it should have, it would have been out of business by the late 70s.
The basis for my estimate of the capital subsidy for the Acela passenger was layed out extensively in a previous post. Amtrak's interest and depreciation expense can be found in its financial reports. I used a range of scenarios to make an educated estimate of the amount of annual interest and depreciation attributable to the NEC and Acela operations. I don't know the exact amounts to attribute to the Acela, and Amtrak does not provide them. But my estimates are, I believe, conservative. In any case, the range reflects an A to D scenario. If anyone has anything better, I would be pleased to learn of it.
Sam1 The price of the plane ticket covers the airline's proportional costs and produces a small return for the shareholders. The price of the Acela ticket covers the proportional share of the operating costs and contributes to the NEC capital costs, but it is not sufficient to cover all of the allocable costs. A conservative estimate of the capital subsidy for the Acela passenger between New York and Washington ranges from $28.58 to $51.20 per person. The actual amount, which Amtrak does not disclose, would depend on a number of variables, but if it charged the full cost of the service between New York and Washington, the price of an Acela ticket (business class) could be $223.93 to $246.55. In addition, Amtrak pays no fuel taxes, power taxes, or property taxes. When these factors are included in the numbers, the real cost of the Acela is somewhat higher than the airline fare.
Sam,
I have some reservations about your comparison of costs and subsidies with the airlines vs Amtrak.
Fuel/power taxes: My understanding is that the fuel taxes charged on aviation fuel is intended for airport/airway development and operation. Whether or not these taxes are used strictly for those purposes is another story. Since Amtrak provides its own track, signaling and dispatching, there is no reason to collect fuel or property taxes. Back in the pre-Amtrak days, not only did the RR's have to provide the capital for the equivalent of airports and airways, the RR's had to treat those expenses as capital expenses where the airlines could simply expense the fuel tax.
Property taxes: I'd be surprised if the airlines weren't paying property taxes on their aircraft and airline owned real estate, I don't think they are paying property tax for the airports or airways (which is mostly a federal gov't operation).
Subsidies: Granted that Amtrak has received considerable direct subsidization. The airlines have received indirect subsidies largely in the form of R&D spent on military projects. Examples include airframe design as most airlines are descendants of the B-47 (thin swept wings with engines hanging off the wing is pods), engines and air traffic control (based on the Semi-Automatic Ground Environment - SAGE).
Return to shareholders: I've heard a claim that the airline industry as a whole has never earned a return on investment. Needless to say, there have been some airlines that have been consistently profitable, best example is Southwest, who copied many things that PSA did right and largely avoided what PSA did wrong.
As for trip times: The trip time for Acela could be significantly reduced with sufficient capital expenditure. I don't see opportunities in air travel for equivalent reductions in trip times. Whether or not the additional capital expenditures for Acela is a good idea is a whole 'nother story.
Some other considerations: Airliners require liquid hydrocarbon fuel with a relatively low vapor pressure and these fuels are likely to get more expensive with time (per BTU price of distillates is 3 to 6 times higher than natural gas). Acela runs on electricity, which has multiple choices for fuel. There is strong evidence that contrails lead to localized warming - your guess is as good as mine whether this becomes an issue for the airlines.
- Erik
http://bungalowbillscw.blogspot.com/2010/11/federal-airline-subsidies-in-airline.html
http://www.joplinglobe.com/local/x150253919/Congress-eyes-ending-airline-subsidies
http://www2.timesdispatch.com/business/business/2010/dec/02/jetb02-ar-689270/
blue streak 1 Cricketer: Returning, gently, to the railway tracks of the North-East corridor where are the slow bits that could benefit from a 10-20mph upgrade? There are 2 S curves one near Elizabeth and the other location I cannot recal right now south of Elizabeth. At one time both were 60 MPH but now?? and both are in the AMTRAK upgrade proposal
http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/BlobServer?blobcol=urldata&blobtable=MungoBlobs&blobkey=id&blobwhere=1249210500966&blobheader=application%2Fpdf&blobheadername1=Content-disposition&blobheadervalue1=attachment;filename=Amtrak_NECMasterPlan_FinalReport_5-19-2010_v1a.pdf
Three areas with sharp curves are mentioned at various places: Elizabeth, NJ area; northeast Philadelphia, PA area; and somewhere in northern MD (not further identified or specified - see last sentence of 1st paragraph on page 34 of Part I: Looking Ahead to 2030 - Infrastructure Improvements [page 53 of 178 of the 'PDF' format version] ). Details on the proposed Curve Realignments in the first 2 areas are as follows, from Part III: Capital Program Summary by Segment, page 36 (page 174 of 178 of the 'PDF' version):
Elizabeth - MP 255 to MP 255; Lincoln Interlocking Area - MP 267 to MP 267
Neshaminy - MP 303 to MP 304; Torresdale MP 306 to MP 308; Frankford MP 314 to MP 315; Shore to 30th Street - MP 315 to MP 322
In Table 19: Phase I Program of Improvements, New York-Washington, under "TRIP-TIME IMPROVEMENTS" on page 38 of Part I: Looking Ahead to 2030 - Infrastructure Improvements (page 57 of 178 of the 'PDF' format version), all of these are lumped together as "New Jersey / Pennsylvania Curve Realignments" with an estimated magnitude of cost of $500 Million.
Otherwise, with a quick review, I did not see anything that illuminated the question of "minutes saved/ $ spent" anywhere in this document. There are other documents and publications at the link below, but I don't have time to review them today:
At what, approximately 2 hours 50 minutes running time NY to Boston or D.C., how man more minutes can be deducted that will make a difference? At what cost and for what gain? Going fast to go fast should not be the goal of HSR but going fast to accomodate and serve the needs of the traveling public should be. Another minute or two clipped off the current schedules mean nothing...maybe a half hour off would mean something, but I doubt the cost would be worth it. New construction of HSR is wide open but the expectations of the public have to be defined and met. Go 100 miles in a half hour? Maybe, if there are no stops in that 100 miles. But two stops and your 200 mph is down to 160 mph and your over the road time could be as much as 1 hour and 15 minutes allowing for accleration, dwell time, and deceleration. So choose your values, choose your needs, then choose your hardware.
Paul_D_North_Jr blue streak 1: Cricketer: Returning, gently, to the railway tracks of the North-East corridor where are the slow bits that could benefit from a 10-20mph upgrade? There are 2 S curves one near Elizabeth and the other location I cannot recal right now south of Elizabeth. At one time both were 60 MPH but now?? and both are in the AMTRAK upgrade proposal [snipped] Otherwise, with a quick review, I did not see anything that illuminated the question of "minutes saved/ $ spent" anywhere in this document. There are other documents and publications at the link below, but I don't have time to review them today: http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=Page&pagename=am%2FLayout&p=1237608345018&cid=1241245669222
Cricketer: Returning, gently, to the railway tracks of the North-East corridor where are the slow bits that could benefit from a 10-20mph upgrade? There are 2 S curves one near Elizabeth and the other location I cannot recal right now south of Elizabeth. At one time both were 60 MPH but now?? and both are in the AMTRAK upgrade proposal
[snipped] Otherwise, with a quick review, I did not see anything that illuminated the question of "minutes saved/ $ spent" anywhere in this document. There are other documents and publications at the link below, but I don't have time to review them today:
http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/BlobServer?blobcol=urldata&blobtable=MungoBlobs&blobkey=id&blobwhere=1249200685700&blobheader=application%2Fpdf&blobheadername1=Content-disposition&blobheadervalue1=attachment;filename=Amtrak_AmtrakNortheastCorridorAssessment.pdf
Note that per these Tables, the Curve Realignments/ Modifications are estimated to cost $500 Million to save 2 minutes - that's about the same cost as installing the Constant Tension catenary, which with other Track and Signal upgrades, would save an estimated 5 minutes . . .
Finally, relating to that last point, I can't resist stealing this little piece of humor by TREnecNYP on Wed. May 19, 2010 at 4:25 PM from: http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=72276&start=30 :
"The PRR era wires in use now are a source of constant tension both in washington and in the electrical manience dept.... "
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.