The concept of a wayside horn is simple.
It is found advisable for a train to make loud noises to announce it is coming. The simplest way of doing that in the past was to put a noisemaker (whistle or horn) aboard the train so the engineer could make it sound when the train was approaching a place where the warning was deemed necessary.
Unfortunately, noise makers are not very unidirectional. Yes, they can be "aimed' but are still often nearly as loud behind and beside them as they are in the direction they are aimed. Thus, people are warned nearly as far behind and beside the train as ahead of it and those people do not need the warning.
Also, if the train mounted warning device were highly directional then if it were on a curve approaching a danger point it would be warning people that are tangent to the curve and not in danger, and not warning people around the curve that might be.
The noise maker needs to be loud enough to be heard in front of the train to be able to give enough time for people to get out of the way. That distance is based on the speed of the train but as a "fer instance" equates to about 1/4 mile. This means the noisemaker needs to be loud enough to be clearly recognized for about 1/4 mile and that means that people anywhere in the area for about 1/4 mile radius in all directions (1/2 mile diameter) are hearing it and the majority of those people are being alerted for no reason at all.
The people that need to heed the warning are more capable of taking evasive action to avoid the approaching train (easier than for the train to do so anyway) and thus do not need to be warned when they are a long distance from the path of the train. Thus a noisemaker of lesser volume can be placed at the danger point and still provide adequate time for people to be warned, but only disturb people in a 1 or 2 city block (diameter) area, and could be made a bit more unidirectional to limit the disturbance to people not approaching the danger area.
Modern technology can also now provide a method of sounding the wayside warning device (even by the engineer if necessary) so it is no longer necessary for the noisemaker to be aboard the train itself.
So... Is it necessary for this device to continue to make loud noises after the train is occupying the area that was deemed to need a warning? Hmmm... Seems we have had other forum discussions of folk that drive right into the side of a train, so... Hmmmm... Well... ???
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
All the crossing gates around here used to only ring the bell when the gate was lowering, then it would shut off. But newer installations (and when older crossings are rehabbed) are being set up so the bell rings the whole time the gates are lowered. I don't even pretend to understand the reasoning.
Semi-related, but I never understood the concept of wayside horns, either. But that's not my department.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Perhaps what is needed is a sign that reads:
"Persons who venture beyond this sign when it is flashing will be killed."
zugmann It has to be better - since it is LOUDER! My personal opinion is there is too much extra noise - both from this warning message and from the crossing gates constantly ringing e-bell - and that is drowning out what should be heard: the actual train. Maybe if the crossing gates wouldn't keep ringing, you could hear the train as it passes the other one, and thus wouldn't need to be lectured by the crossing. I wouldn't mind seeing one of these in person, though. Hopefully I'll remember ear plugs.
It has to be better - since it is LOUDER!
My personal opinion is there is too much extra noise - both from this warning message and from the crossing gates constantly ringing e-bell - and that is drowning out what should be heard: the actual train. Maybe if the crossing gates wouldn't keep ringing, you could hear the train as it passes the other one, and thus wouldn't need to be lectured by the crossing.
I wouldn't mind seeing one of these in person, though. Hopefully I'll remember ear plugs.
I have to agree with you here, Zug. My solution (mentioned above) might help a little, but the clanging bells have long been an annoyance of mine. This is apparently a UP thing--on the BNSF "Racetrack" this isn't a problem: as soon as a train enters the island circuit for the crossing, the bell quits. If a second train approaches the crossing, the bell rings for it. I don't know where to find the video of the lady getting clobbered by a BN E9 at Fairview Avenue, but that is exactly what happens there, IIRC.
You forgot the Metra PA announcements trying to compete with all of this. By all means, bring those ear plugs (or, if you come out this way, I might be able to give you a pair)!
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
tree68 And this helps the bozo with his/her I-Pod cranked up to infinity as he/she is busy texting while crossing the tracks how?
And this helps the bozo with his/her I-Pod cranked up to infinity as he/she is busy texting while crossing the tracks how?
(*) get your search engine of choice, put in Quillen, Denver Post & Stupid Zone and see what you get.
There is another thread on this forum about these warnings and when I first saw the thread I misunderstood the meaning of the subject line... it was "Another Train Warning System"... which I interpreted as a complaint that someone was proposing, "(Yet) Another Train Warning System" as in, "Just one more method of warning about trains", not that it was a warning that there is another train in the area that one needs to be aware of.
I realize that there is a need to keep the message short, but I think a more proper English sentence would make a big difference in the understanding of what the message is about.
"Warning! There is another train approaching this area on an adjacent track."
Longer, but not so ambiguous.
MAYBE after many years, and people have gotten the idea of what it is about, the message could be shortened somewhat.
We know what the message means, so it seems like the message is unambiguous. But I think that many, if not most pedestrians are going to simply associate the message with the train that they see, and miss the actual meaning of the message.
I see your point. if you look at the Metra/UP video, it seems to make more sense. Perhaps it needs to be programmed differently?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Off the video at the start of this thread....if that is the warning that is being given, and the circumstance under which it is being given....it is just adding more noise to be blocked out of our lives....it is not presenting any NEW information. For a additional warning to be effective, it actually has to indicate a new threat....just throwing more wattage at the same old threats creates a additional layer of immunity to the brain of those that have to process the warning. Just more clutter to be passed over.
schlimm Hopefully, this system will prevent accidents, although there are some bugs to be worked out. Unfortunately some people on here still seem to regard pedestrians (and vehicles) as either annoyances or potential targets for trains and/or that any safety expenditures are a waste of money.
Hopefully, this system will prevent accidents, although there are some bugs to be worked out. Unfortunately some people on here still seem to regard pedestrians (and vehicles) as either annoyances or potential targets for trains and/or that any safety expenditures are a waste of money.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I think this is a flawed concept.
“Another train coming” could simply be interpreted to mean another train in the succession of trains that pass by every day. Therefore, I see no reason why a pedestrian would necessarily conclude that the warning refers to the anomaly of a second train approaching, but obscured by a visible train, as the system intends.
A pedestrian is likely to conclude that the ATC message is just a supplementary warning to the bells and lights of the crossing, and therefore, miss the point of the ATC warning. After all, the bells, gates, and flashers are all working at the same time as the ATC warning. And like those bells, gates, and flashers, the ATC will sound an alarm when trains are merely standing in the circuit, further reinforcing the perception that all the warning devices opereate together and mean the same thing.
I believe Wheaton, Lombard, Bellwood and Berkeley are in the next phase of the project. The UP West improvement project website did originally say West Street was going to get ATWS, but I don't even see the page for Wheaton up on there anymore. I would guess that West Street is eventually going to get it though.
Robby, the fact that crossovers are to be installed at Wheaton and Lombard is not the reason that ATWS signals weren't put at those places. That work is sufficiently far from the stations to not present any problems. In fact, the Wheaton control point is going to be closer to the College Avenue station (which has ATWS at both ends) than to the downtown Wheaton station.
In Lombard, the pedestrian crossing at the station platform is going to be replaced by a tunnel beneath the tracks, at roughly the same location. Elizabeth Street is off the platform as things now stand, and would probably be ineligible for ATWS (though one could make the argument that that grade crossing is also a school crossing and could use the enhancement).
There is supposed to be a pedestrian overpass somewhere in the vicinity of the Wheaton depot, but I can't figure out why West Street doesn't have, and didn't get, ATWS, unless they plan on closing it to cars as well as pedestrians.
It is just another element of background noise to be tuned out of a persons daily life.
In the video clip shown I fully expected a train to blast past on the middle track....not announcing the two trains that plainly visible and were already at the station.
EJE818 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sn9LKA6iylE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sn9LKA6iylE
Yes it will be quite confusing as others have posted. Suggest that some announcements will need modifying. Not enough thought.
One suggestion "danger third train approaching" ??/?
another stop announcement as soon as 2nd train gets to far side of island circuit?.....unless 3rd train approaching??
It goes on an on???? A possible 36 different combinations??
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Here's my main problem with it, it continues saying the warning even after the second train has gotten on to the crossing. It would be far less annoying if it shut off once the second train enters the crossing, rather than repeating over and over again. If they don't do that, I think the entire point of putting it there becomes redundant.
One of these days when they do start running express trains past local trains, if there are two trains stopped in a station and the warning keeps going after the train has entered the crossing, people are going to assume that the second train is activating the system. Knowing people's impatience up in that area, someone is going to ignore the warnings, thinking the trains stopped in the station are activating it, and step out in front of a third express train. It needs to shut off after the train enters the crossing! That is really going to be important when they install the system at Wheaton and Lombard, both of which have blind curves in both directions.
Currently the UP is still using the hold short rule at Wheaton, Lombard, Berkeley and Bellwood. ATWS has been installed at Maywood, Melrose Park, Elmhurst, Villa Park, Glen Ellyn, College Avenue, Winfield and Geneva, but not yet at those four stations, mainly due to other projects presently going on at those stations. I am going to guess those stations will get ATWS installed once those projects are complete. New crossovers are being installed at Wheaton and Lombard, Berkeley is supposed to get triple-tracked and Bellwood's present station is supposed to be closed once a new one opens further east at 25th Avenue, which I'm going to guess would get ATWS installed.
kolechovski I tried to post this on youtube, but it kept giving me errors, so here it is here instead: ! DANGER ! Polititions think this is a good use of $$$! DANGER ! Polititions think this is a good use of $$$*ding* *ding* *ding* *ding* *ding* *ding* *ding* *ding* *ding*! DANGER ! Polititions think this is a good use of $$$! DANGER ! Polititions think this is a good use of $$$*ding* *ding* *ding* *ding* *ding* *ding* *ding* *ding* *ding*! DANGER ! Polititions think this is a good use of $$$! DANGER ! Polititions think this is a good use of $$$...
I tried to post this on youtube, but it kept giving me errors, so here it is here instead:
! DANGER ! Polititions think this is a good use of $$$! DANGER ! Polititions think this is a good use of $$$*ding* *ding* *ding* *ding* *ding* *ding* *ding* *ding* *ding*! DANGER ! Polititions think this is a good use of $$$! DANGER ! Polititions think this is a good use of $$$*ding* *ding* *ding* *ding* *ding* *ding* *ding* *ding* *ding*! DANGER ! Polititions think this is a good use of $$$! DANGER ! Polititions think this is a good use of $$$...
You may want to use spell check when referring to "politicians"...really it's more likely METRA legal staff pushed this idea (same difference, I guess)..
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
I wrote a little about this in "Trackside Lounge" a week ago. Thanks for the actual pictures. That scene recurs nearly every hour throughout the day, because Elmhurst is likely to be the meeting point between the daytime scoots, with a minute's dfifference between scheduled departure times.
Annoying? Yes. Attention-getting? Maybe. It was probably required because UP will stop holding its trains clear of station platforms when a Metra train is loading or unloading. Mind you, that doesn't mean that the passing trains won't be sounding their own horns--they will, because the rules require it at grade crossings, even when they're in a quiet zone. This sign is aimed purely at the people who habitually or absent-mindedly start across the tracks, regardless of the gates, as soon as their train has cleared. I suggested some alternative messages for some of the rest of us over in the Lounge last week. I'm sure that non-railfans could come up with messages of their own as well.
The point I tried to make, however, is that this system, as it's currently set up, is not only far more annoying than it needs to be, but also is crying "wolf" a lot of the time. As could be seen, both of the trains at Elmhurst were leaving the scene, and this thing is still yakking away about "another train". I could only wish! They need to set it up so that the approach of a second train triggers the alarm, but so the alarm stops when all trains have occupied the island circuit for the crossing in question. Because one of these times, you'll have people getting off the train, wanting to cross, hearing the signal, thinking, "Oh, it's just these two trains, and they're leaving now", only to have a freight or a rush-hour scoot bearing down on them at track speed on the third track. We're right back to Square One.
Sorry to see this thread get political, but were I have to cross active tracks I would like a warning of a high speed train approaching.
My tail end is worth more to me than the damage to a locomotive than the railroad can imagine.
Norm
! DANGER ! Politicians think this is a good use of $$$! DANGER ! Politicians think this is a good use of $$$*ding* *ding* *ding* *ding* *ding* *ding* *ding* *ding* *ding*! DANGER ! Politicians think this is a good use of $$$! DANGER ! Politicians think this is a good use of $$$*ding* *ding* *ding* *ding* *ding* *ding* *ding* *ding* *ding*! DANGER ! Politicians think this is a good use of $$$! DANGER ! Politicians think this is a good use of $$$...
(edit-I knew it wasn't spelled right before, but I couldn't remember why it was preventing it at first. Oh well, fixed.)
Many stations on the Metra UP-W Line (The Geneva Sub) now have crossing equipped with this new system, ATWS (Another train warning system).
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