We have a whole list of rules to follow on this forum. So when a thread that is complying with the rules generates enough interest to run to 16 pages, 237 posts, and almost 3000 views, and is locked with no explanation of why; I have to assume that it is because the ideas being expressed are offensive to either the moderators or forum members who cannot tolerate such ideas.
It is obvious that the problem with that thread is that it was running against the grade crossing orthodoxy. It is perfectly fine to have a thread run on endlessly, dancing on the grave of some grade crossing victim. This is the industry template, and most railfans embrace it. But when the signals fail, it amounts to a fly in the ointment of this orthodoxy. And that leads into dangerous ideas that challenge the orthodoxy.
If you want to see an example of this orthodoxy, look at the three pages of comments following this Chicago Tribune report:
http://discussions.chicagotribune.com/20/chinews/chibrknews-2-cars-crash-into-freight-train-on-south-side-4-injured-20110214/10?page=2
The comments ran the gamut of opinion, same as here, but with a lot less detailed discussion of facts and legalities, plus a whole lot of rudeness and name-calling/flaming. But the Trib let it be. The question (as I attempted to ask on the Question thread) is why did the accident thread on the Trains General forum need to be locked? And why? And aside from a few of us, does anybody even care?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Bucyrus,
I looked at the subject thread once early on and have avoided it since becuase I had no interest in it.
After looking at the last two pages, I have no idea why the thread was locked. If someone is uninterested they can simply not follow the thread.
I am of the opinion that "politically incorrect" statements and threads that generate politically incorrect statements are more likely to be locked than other threads. I once had a few discussions with some of the moderators and made specific suggestions to Kalmbach for changes to the "political" rule. No changes were made, but the moderators seemed to be more tollerant for a while.
Somebody got upset about something in the locked thread, but who, and over what are not clear to me.
Mac
Good point, Mac. I was following the thread and occasionally commented, but I failed to see what was "not politically correct," personally offensive or what. The only thing was, as Bucyrus noted, that it tried to examine/challenge the orthodoxy or conventional wisdom on this forum about rail crossing accidents. But that should not cause a lock down, even if some member doesn't like it as long as it is not an ad hominem attack and within the bounds of average taste and non-offensive language.
The dead horse was objecting to the continued beating.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Mechanical Department "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..."
The Missabe Road: Safety First
I think the whole point of the thread was not the grade corssing orthodoxy that Bucyrus talks about - but mroe of a question of whether the absence of operating automatic protection relieves a driver of exercising due care and diligence while operating a motor vehicle.
Just because some have this idea that a grade crossing is a sacred cow - does not make it true.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
I'm just wondering how many more threads we need on the subject? I'm thinking at least 12...
One thread got locked.
From this, two more threads started up.
I can't help thinking of Mickey Mouse as the Sorcerer's Apprentice and the brooms carrying buckets of water.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Bucyrus We have a whole list of rules to follow on this forum. So when a thread that is complying with the rules generates enough interest to run to 16 pages, 237 posts, and almost 3000 views, and is locked with no explanation of why; I have to assume that it is because the ideas being expressed are offensive to either the moderators or forum members who cannot tolerate such ideas.
I was unhappy about the locking because I had just set up a thought process pertaining to the rights to discovery that I was about to harvest, but ...that's the breaks.
On the suface, it probably appeared to the moderators that the thread had no potential to "go" anywhere, with both sides entrenched for the duration, so (from their perspective) their action probably seemed as euthanasia.
Never know though, juries have to be made up from somewhere, and perhaps Kalmbach was worried that some potential juror might disqualify himself after reading what was about to become my master stroke...
Just start another thread...sometimes threads are locked....it is helpful to remember that the forum is privately owned, and the owners or their representative may thus lock threads at their sole descretion. It shouldn't be a big deal...
I am one of the moderators of an aviation forum. I'm loathe to lock a thread, but there are times it wanders so far off topic and gets into a pi$$ing match i/we are forced to do that. We refer to is as 'beating a dead horse to death', and when we close a thread we explain that to the users. I don't think the moderators use a different standard.
Norm
zugmann I think the whole point of the thread was not the grade corssing orthodoxy that Bucyrus talks about - but mroe of a question of whether the absence of operating automatic protection relieves a driver of exercising due care and diligence while operating a motor vehicle.
There are trial lawyers who will argue that. But in reality, it is the driver that has the burden of following the law, no matter how obscure it may be. What people were injecting into the conversaton was speculaton, to which I don't buy into. Those who wish to invent things such as 'Orthodoxy' and other meaninless ideas, are just as guilty as the public (and a certain FD official), who only see the prima facie case.
I only read the comments section of news paper atricles for comedic value, most of it is very uninformed. However I don't think the absance of automatic protection or flairs relives the drives of excersising care around railroads.
If you're caught by a train at a crossing you're either dead right or dead wrong... but dead is dead...so I don't see much to argue about..
In thinking more about this, I conclude that threads about complex ideas don’t work well. Forum communication is fundamentally too impaired for the discussion of complex subjects. The problem is not just that complex threads are difficult to participate in. There is a larger problem in that complex threads stir up resentment among non-participating spectators, so they complain to the moderator to make it stop.
Because they don’t make the effort to understand what is being said in a thread, they complain that the thread is circular or going nowhere. They say it is beating a dead horse. But is it really? Or does it just seem that way to those who simply resent a complex discussion by others? Everything appears to be going nowhere if you refuse to make the effort to understand it.
And even the most productive threads have slow spots. Some threads just require 15 pages to unravel a technical idea. Anybody who actually makes the effort to understand what was being said on last Sunday’s locked thread would see that the thread was much more substantive and constructive than most threads here are. And since when do threads have to be always “going somewhere” to have legitimacy? We have threads here that are happily going nowhere and nobody seems bothered by those.
So I don’t buy the beating-a-dead-horse charge. While it must have been very irritating to several forum members who were pushing the abuse button, it nevertheless must have been interesting to others. It has been viewed about 500 times since it was locked.
We once had a long and technical thread about the return of steam locomotives, and that stirred up a lot of resentment among non-participating spectators who would come on every so often and make snide comments about how the thread was too long and going nowhere. Obviously they just resented other people having a technical discussion.
IMO, the question of any thread "beating a dead horse: and "going around in circles" offending members enough to get it locked is a smokescreen for the real, unspoken reason: the subject matter touches some raw nerves and that just isn't allowed.
schlimm IMO, the question of any thread "beating a dead horse: and "going around in circles" offending members enough to get it locked is a smokescreen for the real, unspoken reason: the subject matter touches some raw nerves and that just isn't allowed.
Oh baloney!
I think threads get locked when people start 'voicing' comments that would, if they were in a crowd, be spoken "under their breath" after nudging a friend that they knew were of a like mind.
If we were invited to attend a gathering and someone was speaking to everyone and said something we dissagreed with, we might nudge a friend standing next to us and make a quiet comment 'under our breath' to them about what was said or maybe about the speaker. Most of us would never consider embarrassing the host of the gathering by shouting an insulting comment. Most would see that as being rude and insensitive, both to the speaker and the host.
On computer forums like this one it seems we tend to forget that we are invited guests and there are no "quiet little comments" that are not broadcast to everyone reading the thread.
I am not saying that you should never dissagree with statements being made, but to rebut a comment with an insult is being rude and insensitive. And to just make an insulting comment is what is not allowed.
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
Bucyrus In thinking more about this, I conclude that threads about complex ideas don’t work well. Forum communication is fundamentally too impaired for the discussion of complex subjects. The problem is not just that complex threads are difficult to participate in. There is a larger problem in that complex threads stir up resentment among non-participating spectators, so they complain to the moderator to make it stop. Because they don’t make the effort to understand what is being said in a thread, they complain that the thread is circular or going nowhere. They say it is beating a dead horse. But is it really? Or does it just seem that way to those who simply resent a complex discussion by others? So I don’t buy the beating-a-dead-horse charge. While it must have been very irritating to several forum members who were pushing the abuse button, it nevertheless must have been interesting to others. It has been viewed about 500 times since it was locked.
Once a frail mind is made up, it doesn't like being disturbed. Rethinking one's position is too much like work for some.
But hey, this is just another example of how modern technology has helped mankind. Back in the 14oo's, people like that would be out burning books. But thanks to the modern convenience of the [REPORT ABUSE] button, there are no fires to light, no ashes to clean up, and (best of all) they don't even have to leave their chairs....
In more modern times, too.
So.. does this thread have a point? Ever notice how some of these posters seem to only ever participate in threads where they can whine about the forum (or just state their personal political leanings, or criticize railroaders)?
Who knows - maybe it's just me.
Predictable. If you have no interest in the thread, why can't you just ignore it as all of us do with other threads? Is there a posting in this thread that personally insults you or anyone else? And in fact I just posted my strong agreement with you on a serious issue.
schlimm Predictable. If you have no interest in the thread, why can't you just ignore it as all of us do with other threads? Is there a posting in this thread that personally insults you or anyone else? And in fact I just posted my strong agreement with you on a serious issue.
I didn't go to the moderator. I just asked - esp. after the big issue here with forum size awhile back. I just wonder if all this virtual back and forth and kum-bye-ya crap (which as nothing to do with RR discussion) is worthy of knocking another topic to page two? Besides, it';s hard to ignore a thread that keeps popping to the top. I read most anything on this page. It's like if I tell you to not think about bananas. What are you thinking of?
PS. No such thing as a stupid question.
PPS Besides schlimm, at least you post to other topics...
zugmann schlimm: Predictable. If you have no interest in the thread, why can't you just ignore it as all of us do with other threads? Is there a posting in this thread that personally insults you or anyone else? And in fact I just posted my strong agreement with you on a serious issue. I didn't go to the moderator. I just asked - esp. after the big issue here with forum size awhile back. I just wonder if all this virtual back and forth and kum-bye-ya crap (which as nothing to do with RR discussion) is worthy of knocking another topic to page two? Besides, it';s hard to ignore a thread that keeps popping to the top. I read most anything on this page. It's like if I tell you to not think about bananas. What are you thinking of? PS. No such thing as a stupid question. PPS Besides schlimm, at least you post to other topics...
schlimm: Predictable. If you have no interest in the thread, why can't you just ignore it as all of us do with other threads? Is there a posting in this thread that personally insults you or anyone else? And in fact I just posted my strong agreement with you on a serious issue.
Its a thread on rationalization.
.
I contacted both moderators and asked why last Sunday’s thread was locked before I said anything about it on the forum. I was told that the thread was locked because someone complained that we were making errors in our discussion of Illinois grade crossing law. Other than that, I was given no specific reason for the locking.
But to the point of rude comments: Rude comments are against the rules. Publicly asking a moderator why a thread was locked is not against the rules, so why should it even be considered to be a problem? It can be characterized as being rude by referring to is as “calling a moderator out,” but that is just using inflammatory rhetoric in an attempt to elevate it to the level of an offense.
A thread is in the public domain. When a moderator locks one, he does so on the thread, in public. Often when he does so, he announces the reason publicly. Sometimes moderators personally and publicly scold a forum member whom they believe is causing a problem. Sometimes they harshly chastise a group of thread participants collectively, painting them with a broad brush, leaving the impression publicly that they have all violated a rule when all have not. If moderators can do this in public, why should be considered wrong to question them publicly?
What seems really rude to me is to lock a thread that is not violating any rules, but rather only because another member complained that they did not like it; and to do this without any explanation to the participants of the thread.
BucyrusBut to the point of rude comments: Rude comments are against the rules. Publicly asking a moderator why a thread was locked is not against the rules, so why should it even be considered to be a problem? It can be characterized as being rude by referring to is as “calling a moderator out,” but that is just using inflammatory rhetoric in an attempt to elevate it to the level of an offense. A thread is in the public domain. When a moderator locks one, he does so on the thread, in public. Often when he does so, he announces the reason publicly. Sometimes moderators personally and publicly scold a forum member whom they believe is causing a problem. Sometimes they harshly chastise a group of thread participants collectively, painting them with a broad brush, leaving the impression publicly that they have all violated a rule when all have not. If moderators can do this in public, why should be considered wrong to question them publicly? What seems really rude to me is to lock a thread that is not violating any rules, but rather only because another member complained that they did not like it; and to do this without any explanation to the participants of the thread.
Bucyrus, you are absolutely correct. Rude comments are considered to be an ad hominem attack. Like when Schlimm posted his "Question" thread and mentioned me directly by name, that was in my opinion an ad hominem. Now Schlimm to his credit did at least have the maturity to apoligize later in the thread when I called him on it.
I was also accused by you and Convicted One for having been the person that caused the "Crossing" thread to be locked. You received an answer from both the moderators which confirmed that their action was not precipitated from me. Yet I stood accused by both you and Convicted One (in addition to Schlimm who at least had the maturity to apologize), and was unfairly accused of causing the thread to be locked.
Would that not be grounds for a public apology (or at the very least an affirmation) that both you and Convicted One were also wrong in your accusations towards me?
Regarding your statement about this domain: Unlike what Schlimm stated in the "Question" thread yesterday...this is not a public domain. This is owned by Kalmbach under the guise of trains.com for the the benefit of folks who registered to use said site. Therfore, we all operate under their rules. Rules are of course subject to interpretation, but the final arbiter of the rules are the moderators.
Now Bucyrus, you clearly have an issue with what the moderators have done. They gave you their opinion and justification. Yet you continue to address this like you have had a great wrong committed against you. Bucyrus, think of it as a baseball game. You got a call you didn't like it. The mature player would just turn and walk away instead of yelling and arguing and risking being ejected.
Bucyrus, Convicted One and Schlimm, don't you think its time to give this a rest and move on?
Just think - if this was another popular forum (not naming names, but it rhymes with grainorders) this thread would be deleted, we'd all be banned, and the fan club would cheer the moderators for keeping the site "civil".
Sometimes we forget how good we have it here. And I'm being serious.
zugmann Just think - if this was another popular forum (not naming names, but it rhymes with grainorders) this thread would be deleted, we'd all be banned, and the fan club would cheer the moderators for keeping the site "civil". Sometimes we forget how good we have it here. And I'm being serious.
Absolutely correct Zug.
Look gentlemen...can't we all be friends here?
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