Hello everyone, I am doing some research on how rule compliance is handled by trainmasters on the various class 1 railroads. I am looking for any feedback from train service personel who have been working in the field for the past 10 years only please. Having been previously employed by one of the most strict class one railroads out there, I am looking for examples from others on the various ways the trainmasters with your railroad have caught rule violators (Example, my previous employer hid raw eggs in the switches in the yards to see if the points were being checked for obstructions before lining the switches) and how violations are dealt with (My employer hand a method called S.T.A.R.T. which the minimum punishment was 15 days on the street without pay) Please keep this clean, Do not use names of trainmasters but do tell me your postion (engineer / conductor) and which railroad you work for: Union Pacific, CSX, BNSF, Kansas City Southern or CN/IC
Thanks in advance for your contributions to my research
Research for what?
Sorry, but something here isn't kosher. You won't name which RR you worked for (though it is obvious) yet you want others to do so?
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zugmann Research for what? Sorry, but something here isn't kosher. You won't name which RR you worked for (though it is obvious) yet you want others to do so?
Zug, spoken like a true rail!!
The original post smells like a set-up.
The Conductor 03: Please read the private message I sent you and get back to me. Click on the *conversations* button to the right of your post, 5 lines above the box that says *control panel*.-Thanks-Norris user/moderator
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
The plot thickens.
Conductor03 - I guess you crushed the egg when you didn't check the points for obstructions and got 15 days off after the fair and impartial hanging.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I didn't have as many problems with the discipline from rules violations as I did with some of the rules themselves. For example. I don't know if CSX still does this, but when I was there we were required to keep a log of signal indications, including speed, track, direction and time. It really was a waste of time and a big distraction. Most of the time I would just only write down any change in tracks or a restrictive indication, then fill in the rest in the hotel. There were some other dumb ones as well. I can only imagine what new rules have been written in the last seven years since I left.
Why worry about discipline. Sign up for derail insurance and look forward to a two week paid vacation next time you make an order of "scrambled switch points".
Rick Rowlands
J&L Narrow Gauge Railroad
Youngstown, OH
Wow okay, quite a suspicious bunch we have here. The railroad was Norfolk Southern. Yes I was a conductor with them. I quit on my own volition (the company I left to work for the railroad offered me a handsome amount of money to come back and take over my original position after they had a number of walk outs shortly after I quit. I am working on a story however, a fictional story, but I want it based on some reality so I need to know if other railroads are similar. The egg story was just a rumor I had heard. I'm not even sure they really do that.
The Conductor 03 Wow okay, quite a suspicious bunch we have here. The railroad was Norfolk Southern. Yes I was a conductor with them. I quit on my own volition (the company I left to work for the railroad offered me a handsome amount of money to come back and take over my original position after they had a number of walk outs shortly after I quit. I am working on a story however, a fictional story, but I want it based on some reality so I need to know if other railroads are similar. The egg story was just a rumor I had heard. I'm not even sure they really do that.
You must not have worked for the railroad very long if you do not understand why we are suspicious. Esp.when you just join and ask such a loaded question. Any rules violations I've had are between me and the managers that discovered said violation. I would caution any RRer about publicly disclosing any specific information. You never know who is watching...
Yeah...yeah....that's it...I'm...uh....writing a book....yeah...that's it...that's the ticket.
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiggggggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhttttt..............
I want to know, was the egg left in it's original white/brown color or was it dyed black? The one who supposedly did this retired a few years ago.
Jeff
Zugman,
Considering the paranoia people have developed since 9/11 you are correct in that there may be people lurking just to discover if the posters are perhaps one of their employees.
I'm not a 'rail' but the attitude toward 'security' bugs me.
Norm
jeffhergert I want to know, was the egg left in it's original white/brown color or was it dyed black? The one who supposedly did this retired a few years ago. Jeff
I heard that this "test" was also considered by some in the regulatory industry as "switch tampering".
Norm48327 Zugman, Considering the paranoia people have developed since 9/11 you are correct in that there may be people lurking just to discover if the posters are perhaps one of their employees. I'm not a 'rail' but the attitude toward 'security' bugs me.
I'm not talking about 9/11 and security.
Well the way I see it, if the man is no longer in the business, then he no longer has a need to know.
Besides, did you notice how the original posted morphed from "I want examples of how Trainmaster dealt with safety violations and rules violators" to "I'm writing a fictional book".
Again...it just doesn't add up.
Thanks Rick, when we were in school in Georgia, we were at a waffle house and we were approached by a guy from CSX who told us he thought that they were too strict and wanted to know if NS was hiring. I don't remeber what craft he told us he was in, But we told him that obviously he didn't know about NS legendary commitment to safety. It does make me wonder why he thought they were too strict there. What you mentioed above doesn't seem that bad
Hey Jeff, I do not know who was responsible for the egg test. There were actually a couple of tactics supposedly employed to catch railroaders making violations. I never actually saw this or any of the tricks rumored to catch people breaking rules. I never understood why a company would pay so much to hire a persson and then spend so much time trying to get rid of them. I was there only a short while. 3 months to be exact. Nearing the end of the third month my previous employer called me and asked if I would be willing to come back. It was nights and weekends off and more money than when I left. So I took it.
The Great Lakes Division Manager once told a group of us employees that each injury cost the railroad an average of $200,000, and that their goal was to reduce the number of injuries of all seventies. Large companies do cost benefit analysis of every aspect of their operation and feel that the payback from certain rules outweigh the loss of productivity. The railroad industry, being governed by the archaic FELA instead of no fault workers compensation, has a greater paranoia about injuries that any other industry.
I do remember being told that in event of a locomotive fire the crew was not permitted to fight that fire with the extinguishers on board, but was to stop the movement, get away and let it burn. Their rationale was that because railroaders were not trained in the proper use of extinguishers the railroad would be liable if an employee was injured fighting a fire. The extinguishers are there in compliance with FRA regulations, but are not to be used in any circumstance. Certainly flies in the face of common sense.
Rick in Ohio ... I do remember being told that in event of a locomotive fire the crew was not permitted to fight that fire with the extinguishers on board, but was to stop the movement, get away and let it burn. Their rationale was that because railroaders were not trained in the proper use of extinguishers the railroad would be liable if an employee was injured fighting a fire. The extinguishers are there in compliance with FRA regulations, but are not to be used in any circumstance. Certainly flies in the face of common sense.
...
Whew! I wonder how that would fly on a Navy vessel, or on an Air Force tanker, or in the turret of a main battle tank. We were trained to fight fires in the military because the burning objects were considered to be valued property, and essential to the success of the mission.
Crandell
selector Whew! I wonder how that would fly on a Navy vessel, or on an Air Force tanker, or in the turret of a main battle tank. We were trained to fight fires in the military because the burning objects were considered to be valued property, and essential to the success of the mission. Crandell
Key word in bold.
If a locomotive burns up, the natives don't come out and shoot you! I also think that the liability issues are a bit different, as in the military not coming home is an acceptable outcome.
zugmann selector: Whew! I wonder how that would fly on a Navy vessel, or on an Air Force tanker, or in the turret of a main battle tank. We were trained to fight fires in the military because the burning objects were considered to be valued property, and essential to the success of the mission. Crandell Key word in bold.
selector: Whew! I wonder how that would fly on a Navy vessel, or on an Air Force tanker, or in the turret of a main battle tank. We were trained to fight fires in the military because the burning objects were considered to be valued property, and essential to the success of the mission. Crandell
But I saw the 5 or 10 minute video on fire extinguisher operation that's shown during rules classes.
I'm aligned with the cops. If you think it is necessary use your gun and answer to your superiors later.
If you saw a video, then you are good to go!
I never knew how to walk until they showed me the video. High tech stuff.
Rick in Ohio The railroad industry, being governed by the archaic FELA instead of no fault workers compensation, has a greater paranoia about injuries that any other industry.
The railroad industry, being governed by the archaic FELA instead of no fault workers compensation, has a greater paranoia about injuries that any other industry.
Well, that "archaic" piece of law will get you a bigger settlement if you get injured than workers' comp will. That's why there are law firms that deal with only FELA. If I get injured through no real fault of my own, but due to the company's negligence in maintaining the property, equipment, etc., I'd rather have a hefty settlement than a paltry sum, thank you very much. If you don't believe me, talk to one of the firms. I'm not that much more fond of lawyers than I am of management, but at least I know who's going to be on my side.
People who complain about safety rules are usual tend to be the types who find them "constricting." In other words, "dangerous" is their middle name, and odds are we're better off without them.
If you're in the Navy, you better know how to save your "home..." Your nearest neighbor may be miles and miles away, and there may well be things in the water which value you for your caloric value.
And just like the ERG 'orange book' is only good for the first 10 minutes of a hazmat incident, a 2.5 Lb fire extinguisher is only good for the little stuff. I'm not sure I'd want to stand on top of several thousand gallons of fuel oil dealing with a spitting on a bonfire. And I am a trained firefighter.
It's said that the rules in the rulebook are written in blood. There are all too many people willing to ignore that piece of wisdom since they know that they know how to do it safely, rules be darned. Hated though they are, weed weasels exist to make sure we don't get overconfident. One seemingly (at the time) insignificant mistake can get very costly very quickly.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
The rulebooks today are nothing more than an exercise in trying to replace common sense with words. Some people just have no business being around large machines. Unfortunately, that's why half the rules exist.
21st Century Rule Books, both Safety and Operating, seem to be written more by lawyers trying to play 'gotcha' with the employees than by railroaders trying to operate at safe and efficient railroad.
Remember, Trainmasters are the bottom level of company official supervision. They are REQUIRED to perform X number of efficiency tests monthly and submit the results of those tests. Performing 30 efficiency tests a month (number from the air) and having no failures is not viewed by Senior levels of management as being 'realistic'.
With the injury pyramid as the model, Senior Management has 'hard facts' on the number of injuries and Major Rule Violations...their thinking is....If we have had X Injuries/MRV's then we MUST have had Y failures of subordinate rules to reach the top of the pyramid. Why haven't our Trainmasters uncovered this 'pattern' of rule violations in their efficiency tests? Let's apply more pressure to the Trainmaster's to find failures in their efficiency tests.
zugmann The rulebooks today are nothing more than an exercise in trying to replace common sense with words. Some people just have no business being around large machines. Unfortunately, that's why half the rules exist.
I've heard the stories of eggs but have never seen them used. The stories always came from another terminal, one place always mentioned was a city bordering on Lake Erie, draw your own conclusions and yet, it goes back to before the Conrail split.
As for weed weasels, oh, the things I'd like to say but hesitate to, usually the rules being interpeted are being interpeted increasingly by some low-level official who spent little or no time doing the actual job they are supervising. That's my opinion, based on long years of observation and participation from a T&E standpoint
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.