The purpose of Efficiency Testing is not to trip up crews. The purpose is to gain rules compliance. On line of road, the most frequently performed test is the so call 'Banner Test'. The train being tested is given verbal permission by the Dispatcher to enter the appropriate track under rules that require operating the train at Restricted Speed, which on my carrier is a speed that will permit stopping the train within 1/2 the range of vision, not exceeding 15 MPH. The Trainmaster sets up his 'Banner' (which is a device that can be readily seen and will do no damage to the train) across the track and waits....If the train hits the 'Banner' test is failed. If the train stops prior to the 'Banner' the test is passed.
Our division has had several accidents caused by trains operating under Restricted Speed striking the train ahead during recent years.
The Accidents and Injuries that occur on a particular territory have a big weight on what types of Efficiency Tests are performed on that territory.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Rule enforcement-the big yellow wrench
The battle of wits between train-crew and TrainMaster goes way back. Recommending reading Charles F. Steffes' "Life and Times of a Locomotive Engineer" (ISBN # 1-880365-13-8, Old World Publishers, 1992.) Charles was fire-craker of an engineer from 1942 to 1976 on the Souther Pacific and he documents many a battle with the TrainMaster trying their best to trip crews up.
From an outsider looking in with an MBA and 28 years in the IT project experience, this 1800 era thinking of a TrainMaster cooking up ways to test crew behavior would have been replaced with more modern methods of labor management. I don't ever recall reading about United Airlines or Delta management flying a plan for a "near miss" to test pilot reaction or seeing an FAA inspector pull a rules book inspection while passengers are boarding the plane. There are better ways of testing then to put several millions of dollars worth of equipment at risk by jumping out of a bush with a lite flare on a downgrade curve and expecting the whole thing to stop right there.
Be interesting to read what comes of your post.
"As for weed weasels, oh, the things I'd like to say but hesitate to, usually the rules being interpreted are being interpreted increasingly by some low-level official who spent little or no time doing the actual job they are supervising. " That does indeed happen with some 'college wonders'. They graduate, then wonder what is happening.
I am friends with a track foreman of many years experience who recently got a new track supervisor. I asked if the super had any experience, The answer I got was 'No, but he's making a sincere effort to learn'.
Seems to me that at least some of the supervisors do make a serious effort to work with those they supervise and keep things running smoothly while they learn the tricks of the trade.
Disclaimer: I've not had any contact with YM's or RFE's.
Norm
ValleyX As for weed weasels, oh, the things I'd like to say but hesitate to, usually the rules being interpreted are being interpreted increasingly by some low-level official who spent little or no time doing the actual job they are supervising. That's my opinion, based on long years of observation and participation from a T&E standpoint
As for weed weasels, oh, the things I'd like to say but hesitate to, usually the rules being interpreted are being interpreted increasingly by some low-level official who spent little or no time doing the actual job they are supervising. That's my opinion, based on long years of observation and participation from a T&E standpoint
This is one major problem. Ask ten Trainmonsters what a rule means, and you'll get ten different interpretations, of at odds with each other. The street hired ones often have bizarre interpretations that leave you going If I do it that way, I'll be breaking six other rules .
Also, rule may not be applied equally across a system. We have a certain type of PPE that always must be carried on a certain division; only needed under certain conditions on my division; and flat out banned on others.
BaltACD With the injury pyramid as the model, Senior Management has 'hard facts' on the number of injuries and Major Rule Violations...their thinking is....If we have had X Injuries/MRV's then we MUST have had Y failures of subordinate rules to reach the top of the pyramid. Why haven't our Trainmasters uncovered this 'pattern' of rule violations in their efficiency tests? Let's apply more pressure to the Trainmaster's to find failures in their efficiency tests.
With the injury pyramid as the model, Senior Management has 'hard facts' on the number of injuries and Major Rule Violations...their thinking is....If we have had X Injuries/MRV's then we MUST have had Y failures of subordinate rules to reach the top of the pyramid. Why haven't our Trainmasters uncovered this 'pattern' of rule violations in their efficiency tests? Let's apply more pressure to the Trainmaster's to find failures in their efficiency tests.
This is the other. Trainmonsters are required to preform a certain number of E-tests every month, and are expected to have a certain percentage of failures. So Trainmonsters "find" failures. Even though something like 90% of failures resulting in investigations are later overturned.
Nick
Take a Ride on the Reading with the: Reading Company Technical & Historical Society http://www.readingrailroad.org/
I've heard the stories of eggs but have never seen them used. The stories always came from another terminal, one place always mentioned was a city bordering on Lake Erie, draw your own conclusions and yet, it goes back to before the Conrail split.
As for weed weasels, oh, the things I'd like to say but hesitate to, usually the rules being interpeted are being interpeted increasingly by some low-level official who spent little or no time doing the actual job they are supervising. That's my opinion, based on long years of observation and participation from a T&E standpoint
21st Century Rule Books, both Safety and Operating, seem to be written more by lawyers trying to play 'gotcha' with the employees than by railroaders trying to operate at safe and efficient railroad.
Remember, Trainmasters are the bottom level of company official supervision. They are REQUIRED to perform X number of efficiency tests monthly and submit the results of those tests. Performing 30 efficiency tests a month (number from the air) and having no failures is not viewed by Senior levels of management as being 'realistic'.
zugmann The rulebooks today are nothing more than an exercise in trying to replace common sense with words. Some people just have no business being around large machines. Unfortunately, that's why half the rules exist.
The rulebooks today are nothing more than an exercise in trying to replace common sense with words. Some people just have no business being around large machines. Unfortunately, that's why half the rules exist.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
People who complain about safety rules are usual tend to be the types who find them "constricting." In other words, "dangerous" is their middle name, and odds are we're better off without them.
If you're in the Navy, you better know how to save your "home..." Your nearest neighbor may be miles and miles away, and there may well be things in the water which value you for your caloric value.
And just like the ERG 'orange book' is only good for the first 10 minutes of a hazmat incident, a 2.5 Lb fire extinguisher is only good for the little stuff. I'm not sure I'd want to stand on top of several thousand gallons of fuel oil dealing with a spitting on a bonfire. And I am a trained firefighter.
It's said that the rules in the rulebook are written in blood. There are all too many people willing to ignore that piece of wisdom since they know that they know how to do it safely, rules be darned. Hated though they are, weed weasels exist to make sure we don't get overconfident. One seemingly (at the time) insignificant mistake can get very costly very quickly.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Rick in Ohio The railroad industry, being governed by the archaic FELA instead of no fault workers compensation, has a greater paranoia about injuries that any other industry.
The railroad industry, being governed by the archaic FELA instead of no fault workers compensation, has a greater paranoia about injuries that any other industry.
Well, that "archaic" piece of law will get you a bigger settlement if you get injured than workers' comp will. That's why there are law firms that deal with only FELA. If I get injured through no real fault of my own, but due to the company's negligence in maintaining the property, equipment, etc., I'd rather have a hefty settlement than a paltry sum, thank you very much. If you don't believe me, talk to one of the firms. I'm not that much more fond of lawyers than I am of management, but at least I know who's going to be on my side.
If you saw a video, then you are good to go!
I never knew how to walk until they showed me the video. High tech stuff.
I'm aligned with the cops. If you think it is necessary use your gun and answer to your superiors later.
zugmann selector: Whew! I wonder how that would fly on a Navy vessel, or on an Air Force tanker, or in the turret of a main battle tank. We were trained to fight fires in the military because the burning objects were considered to be valued property, and essential to the success of the mission. Crandell Key word in bold.
selector: Whew! I wonder how that would fly on a Navy vessel, or on an Air Force tanker, or in the turret of a main battle tank. We were trained to fight fires in the military because the burning objects were considered to be valued property, and essential to the success of the mission. Crandell
Whew! I wonder how that would fly on a Navy vessel, or on an Air Force tanker, or in the turret of a main battle tank. We were trained to fight fires in the military because the burning objects were considered to be valued property, and essential to the success of the mission.
Crandell
Key word in bold.
But I saw the 5 or 10 minute video on fire extinguisher operation that's shown during rules classes.
Jeff
If a locomotive burns up, the natives don't come out and shoot you! I also think that the liability issues are a bit different, as in the military not coming home is an acceptable outcome.
Rick Rowlands
J&L Narrow Gauge Railroad
Youngstown, OH
selector Whew! I wonder how that would fly on a Navy vessel, or on an Air Force tanker, or in the turret of a main battle tank. We were trained to fight fires in the military because the burning objects were considered to be valued property, and essential to the success of the mission. Crandell
Rick in Ohio ... I do remember being told that in event of a locomotive fire the crew was not permitted to fight that fire with the extinguishers on board, but was to stop the movement, get away and let it burn. Their rationale was that because railroaders were not trained in the proper use of extinguishers the railroad would be liable if an employee was injured fighting a fire. The extinguishers are there in compliance with FRA regulations, but are not to be used in any circumstance. Certainly flies in the face of common sense.
...
I do remember being told that in event of a locomotive fire the crew was not permitted to fight that fire with the extinguishers on board, but was to stop the movement, get away and let it burn. Their rationale was that because railroaders were not trained in the proper use of extinguishers the railroad would be liable if an employee was injured fighting a fire. The extinguishers are there in compliance with FRA regulations, but are not to be used in any circumstance. Certainly flies in the face of common sense.
The Great Lakes Division Manager once told a group of us employees that each injury cost the railroad an average of $200,000, and that their goal was to reduce the number of injuries of all seventies. Large companies do cost benefit analysis of every aspect of their operation and feel that the payback from certain rules outweigh the loss of productivity. The railroad industry, being governed by the archaic FELA instead of no fault workers compensation, has a greater paranoia about injuries that any other industry.
Hey Jeff, I do not know who was responsible for the egg test. There were actually a couple of tactics supposedly employed to catch railroaders making violations. I never actually saw this or any of the tricks rumored to catch people breaking rules. I never understood why a company would pay so much to hire a persson and then spend so much time trying to get rid of them. I was there only a short while. 3 months to be exact. Nearing the end of the third month my previous employer called me and asked if I would be willing to come back. It was nights and weekends off and more money than when I left. So I took it.
Thanks Rick, when we were in school in Georgia, we were at a waffle house and we were approached by a guy from CSX who told us he thought that they were too strict and wanted to know if NS was hiring. I don't remeber what craft he told us he was in, But we told him that obviously he didn't know about NS legendary commitment to safety. It does make me wonder why he thought they were too strict there. What you mentioed above doesn't seem that bad
Norm48327 Zugman, Considering the paranoia people have developed since 9/11 you are correct in that there may be people lurking just to discover if the posters are perhaps one of their employees. I'm not a 'rail' but the attitude toward 'security' bugs me.
Zugman,
Considering the paranoia people have developed since 9/11 you are correct in that there may be people lurking just to discover if the posters are perhaps one of their employees.
I'm not a 'rail' but the attitude toward 'security' bugs me.
Well the way I see it, if the man is no longer in the business, then he no longer has a need to know.
Besides, did you notice how the original posted morphed from "I want examples of how Trainmaster dealt with safety violations and rules violators" to "I'm writing a fictional book".
Again...it just doesn't add up.
I'm not talking about 9/11 and security.
jeffhergert I want to know, was the egg left in it's original white/brown color or was it dyed black? The one who supposedly did this retired a few years ago. Jeff
I want to know, was the egg left in it's original white/brown color or was it dyed black? The one who supposedly did this retired a few years ago.
I heard that this "test" was also considered by some in the regulatory industry as "switch tampering".
The Conductor 03 Wow okay, quite a suspicious bunch we have here. The railroad was Norfolk Southern. Yes I was a conductor with them. I quit on my own volition (the company I left to work for the railroad offered me a handsome amount of money to come back and take over my original position after they had a number of walk outs shortly after I quit. I am working on a story however, a fictional story, but I want it based on some reality so I need to know if other railroads are similar. The egg story was just a rumor I had heard. I'm not even sure they really do that.
Wow okay, quite a suspicious bunch we have here. The railroad was Norfolk Southern. Yes I was a conductor with them. I quit on my own volition (the company I left to work for the railroad offered me a handsome amount of money to come back and take over my original position after they had a number of walk outs shortly after I quit. I am working on a story however, a fictional story, but I want it based on some reality so I need to know if other railroads are similar. The egg story was just a rumor I had heard. I'm not even sure they really do that.
Yeah...yeah....that's it...I'm...uh....writing a book....yeah...that's it...that's the ticket.
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiggggggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhttttt..............
You must not have worked for the railroad very long if you do not understand why we are suspicious. Esp.when you just join and ask such a loaded question. Any rules violations I've had are between me and the managers that discovered said violation. I would caution any RRer about publicly disclosing any specific information. You never know who is watching...
I didn't have as many problems with the discipline from rules violations as I did with some of the rules themselves. For example. I don't know if CSX still does this, but when I was there we were required to keep a log of signal indications, including speed, track, direction and time. It really was a waste of time and a big distraction. Most of the time I would just only write down any change in tracks or a restrictive indication, then fill in the rest in the hotel. There were some other dumb ones as well. I can only imagine what new rules have been written in the last seven years since I left.
Why worry about discipline. Sign up for derail insurance and look forward to a two week paid vacation next time you make an order of "scrambled switch points".
Conductor03 - I guess you crushed the egg when you didn't check the points for obstructions and got 15 days off after the fair and impartial hanging.
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