Have you ever been in or seen the inside cab of a SD70..these are very cramped.Even the new diesels are nice,but still,not alot of room,even with all the crew's gear that is on board.As for spare knuckles and couplers,I have not seen any parts inside the nose.Granted the broom with the ice chopper is held in place on the nose of the "new" 8-40c's we got, but again no brooms inside of any other locomotives at the moment.Im sure though there will be as the weather gets cold and the snow starts to come in.Confidentially,we dont put spare parts on the train, as,-we are "assuming" there will be no problems with the rail cars.The inspections of the railcars are usually done in the yard when the train is being made up, and when the cars are being switched to the different tracks.Then there are usually a few things that are seen that need to be repaired like broken stirrups,handrails,air hoses that are too short to connect to the other air hose,knuckles broken.Then those cars are immediately put on a RIP track.I do know that when a headlight needs replacement,those bulbs are as big as a mediun sized lamp shade.The box it comes in is 12 inches squared.
Every BNSF, UP, KCS and NS locomotive we "borrow" for extra power all have a E and F knuckle somewhere on a rack/holder, along with at least one (1) spare air hose for the locomotive, which works just fine on cars also.
Most have either a air hose wrench or a large pipe wrench in the nose compartment, along with a broom which has a ice scraper on the top of the handle, plus a flagman kit and a box of fusees in the nose too..
As Zug pointed out, if you have to, rob the empty knuckle from the other end of the locomotive if that's all you have, they will fit just about every coupler out there.
23 17 46 11
cnwfan2 Sorry...no we dont carry those items.We also dont carry extra air hoses either.The only things we DO carry are flares.
Sorry...no we dont carry those items.We also dont carry extra air hoses either.The only things we DO carry are flares.
Actually, you carry 2 spare knuckles. One on the front of the engine, and one on the rear of the last car. Also a spare airhose up there. Of course you have to rob peter to pay paul, but so be it. I can't believe you don't carry a spare airhose, though. Seems downright stupid.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
cnwfan2 Trains dont carry spare parts on board. If they had to get the part from Homewood....well...go figure.
Me, earlier on this thread: "If there's no spare up front (I've never seen that) ...".
What is your statement based on?
Most railroad companies make sure their trains carry spare knuckles. They are like spare tires. They do make the train heavier though.
Some companies sprinkle them along the ROW on steep grades just to have one handy almost anywhere one could break.
You don't carry knuckles and pins on your train?
Your question of how does an engineer break a coupler knuckle? He does not give slack on the train.Then when it comes time to move the train.......he throttles up and the train 'jolts',causing the coupler to break.It took 2 hours as the nearest supply / spare part is at the rail yard.Trains dont carry spare parts on board.If they had to get the part from Homewood....well...go figure.If Barrington wants to take us (CN) to court....hey all the power to you.We have more money than the city does.Barrington can either deal with the trains or shut up.This goes for the NIMBY's too.
YoHo1975 It seems like CN does value being a good community member http://www.cn.ca/en/media-news-cn-vma-ford-heights-20101104.htm?s_cid=rss-cn-news-releases
It seems like CN does value being a good community member
http://www.cn.ca/en/media-news-cn-vma-ford-heights-20101104.htm?s_cid=rss-cn-news-releases
Well, this isn't addressed to the merits of the press release, just the chuckle I get out of the comment. I have to confess that I have never seen a corporation put out a press release claiming that they were a bad community member.
As they say, here is the rest of the story:
from the Wiki: "Often viewed as one of Chicago's most impoverished suburbs and at one point the poorest suburb in the United States, Ford Heights has experienced high levels of political corruption, decaying infrastructure, and an elevated crime rate. Between 1980 and 2000, the population of Ford Heights declined by 35%. 49% of residents live below the poverty line."
Pretty different situation than Barrington, but I guess you weren't aware of that. Also, if you had looked at a map, you would see that the railroad goes along one edge of the village, and that the only roads that intersect with the CN (Cottage Grove and 394) have overpasses. Again, pretty different situations.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
I wonder if they've tried with Barrington and been rejected?
I once rode the Clinchfield RR and recall seeing knuckles along the mainline every couple hundred feet or so. At the time, I assumed they were all broken knuckles, but from what ICLand has mentioned, I am guessing now that they were strategically placed spare, new knuckles.
n012944 ICLand: So when I see that it took two hours in the relative tropical paradise of Illinois on a comparative pool table surface, it did get my attention. Except according to reports it took an hour and a half, not two.
ICLand: So when I see that it took two hours in the relative tropical paradise of Illinois on a comparative pool table surface, it did get my attention.
So when I see that it took two hours in the relative tropical paradise of Illinois on a comparative pool table surface, it did get my attention.
Except according to reports it took an hour and a half, not two.
Well, I read that it was actually "more than two hours" but tightened it up a bit to "two hours."
http://triblocal.com/barrington/2010/10/19/village-awarded-grant/
"On that same day, a Canadian National train broke down, blocking the highway and Metra tracks for more than two hours during rush hour."
Certainly reports can vary. That's the one I read since that's the one that was initially posted at the beginning of this thread.
However, as I have said, I wasn't there.
zugmann Most yards I've been at have had knuckles and pins in different spots. Not on the mainline, because the breaks are not that common to litter the 200 mile mianline with a knuckle every few hundred feet.
Most yards I've been at have had knuckles and pins in different spots. Not on the mainline, because the breaks are not that common to litter the 200 mile mianline with a knuckle every few hundred feet.
I could have phrased it better. The 2% portion of this mainline was only 9 miles long, and the knuckles were every few hundred yards.
ICLand My limited experience with broken knuckles was in the same general area: 2% grade, 10 degree curves, 200 foot trestles, 600 feet to the valley floor below. I was not T&E but rode once in while when I could because it got me to where I was going and I enjoyed the trip. Spare knuckles were located on the ROW every few hundred yards. On past trips I had always assumed those were broken ones, but as it turned out, some were, but those were mainly good knuckles strategically located. It was an interesting approach to "being prepared" and I haven't noticed that done anywhere else. My most vivid memory there was one winter evening, and a cold air mass hitting a warm air mass, ten degree trip, heavy snowstorm, wet snow, cold wind, cold rails, uphill, 6,000 tons, lots of power up front and helpers behind. Before the days of fancy software. Sanders going all the way, but the wind was blowing and when you slipped you slipped and when it grabbed it grabbed. Broken train. The conductor was an old family friend, so I volunteered to go help him. It was a white-out and likely a ten below zero wind chill. Found the break, about 20 cars back, he kicked around in the snow for a while and found a spare knuckle. I had the light jacket and no gloves, he had the heavy parka and heavy gloves. Since he was 62 and I was 27, I offered to carry the knuckle. He said "sure" and gave me his gloves. He knew the drill. Well, after a couple hundred feet, 75 lbs starts to get pretty heavy. Anyway, it was a reasonably miserable experience for me. It took about 45 minutes, part of it walking backwards into the wind and snow, and that included trying to find the replacement knuckle. So when I see that it took two hours in the relative tropical paradise of Illinois on a comparative pool table surface, it did get my attention.
My limited experience with broken knuckles was in the same general area: 2% grade, 10 degree curves, 200 foot trestles, 600 feet to the valley floor below. I was not T&E but rode once in while when I could because it got me to where I was going and I enjoyed the trip. Spare knuckles were located on the ROW every few hundred yards. On past trips I had always assumed those were broken ones, but as it turned out, some were, but those were mainly good knuckles strategically located. It was an interesting approach to "being prepared" and I haven't noticed that done anywhere else.
My most vivid memory there was one winter evening, and a cold air mass hitting a warm air mass, ten degree trip, heavy snowstorm, wet snow, cold wind, cold rails, uphill, 6,000 tons, lots of power up front and helpers behind. Before the days of fancy software. Sanders going all the way, but the wind was blowing and when you slipped you slipped and when it grabbed it grabbed. Broken train. The conductor was an old family friend, so I volunteered to go help him. It was a white-out and likely a ten below zero wind chill. Found the break, about 20 cars back, he kicked around in the snow for a while and found a spare knuckle. I had the light jacket and no gloves, he had the heavy parka and heavy gloves. Since he was 62 and I was 27, I offered to carry the knuckle. He said "sure" and gave me his gloves. He knew the drill. Well, after a couple hundred feet, 75 lbs starts to get pretty heavy. Anyway, it was a reasonably miserable experience for me. It took about 45 minutes, part of it walking backwards into the wind and snow, and that included trying to find the replacement knuckle.
Most yards I've been at have had knuckles and pins in different spots. Not on the mainline, because the breaks are not that common to litter the 200 mile mianline with a knuckle every few hundred feet. And You better keep them in a good spot so they don't get buried when the ballast train comes by.
Of course if you are near any other cars sitting on a siding, you can always "rob peter to pay paul". And replacing a knuckle is a cinch when you are with someone, esp someone that knows what they are doing. If you had to replace the knuckle by yourself with no help, how long do you think it would have taken?
ICLand So when I see that it took two hours in the relative tropical paradise of Illinois on a comparative pool table surface, it did get my attention.
An "expensive model collector"
schlimm 3. The UP line was also blocked. If the CN had blocked the UP in West Chicago on that extremely busy freight mainline, I wonder if the anti-NIMBY complaints would be different?
3. The UP line was also blocked. If the CN had blocked the UP in West Chicago on that extremely busy freight mainline, I wonder if the anti-NIMBY complaints would be different?
http://www.pioneerlocal.com/barrington/news/2820972,barrington-railroad-102010-s1.article
Was it? According to this article, Metra was only forced to slow down. My guess was that Metra could not get signals accross the diamond, forcing them to be talked by the signal. The article also states that the RT 59 crossing was blocked "at times" so it sounds as though the crew cleared as many crossings as possible.
schlimm zugman: There seem to be varying opinions among the railroaders on how long it would take to replace/repair a broken/pulled knuckle (I believe that was the problem, at least according to the CN spokesperson). As you generally provide us reasonable information these things, what do you think?
zugman: There seem to be varying opinions among the railroaders on how long it would take to replace/repair a broken/pulled knuckle (I believe that was the problem, at least according to the CN spokesperson). As you generally provide us reasonable information these things, what do you think?
Me, reasonable? Don't spread that around - I have a reputation to keep.
How much time? Well, not the greatest answer, but it depends. There are way too many variables that I don't know.
Now once you get the correct knuckle, pin, and some sort of hammering tool right there at the broken knuckle, shouldn't take more then a few minutes - if you know what you are doing. Full disclosure: when I was on the road, I never had to replace a knuckle, and it would have given me a few minutes of head scratching time before I got started. Now that I'm in a yard where we shift without air, we tend to find problem knuckles really fast. Of course if you have a brakeman on the crew (usually me), then it is real easy. Then you at least can have someone hold the cut lever up so the "guts" don't come spilling out.
And that's if something else isn't messed up in the coupler that makes it impossible to swap the knuckle out.
Now getting up to the point above is what causes the biggest delay (and has been touched upon by multiple people in this thread).
Randy Stahl Any engineer who willfully and knowingly breaks a knuckle will be considered incompetent and immediately promoted to management.
Any engineer who willfully and knowingly breaks a knuckle will be considered incompetent and immediately promoted to management.
zugmann But a knuckle is usually a quick fix. By the time you get everything pulled apart, you could have changed it out 3 times. So, what do you do? Just try to fix it and go about your way, or take a gamble and try to find another crew and engine to start towards your train - just to arrive in time for you to have it fixed?
But a knuckle is usually a quick fix. By the time you get everything pulled apart, you could have changed it out 3 times. So, what do you do? Just try to fix it and go about your way, or take a gamble and try to find another crew and engine to start towards your train - just to arrive in time for you to have it fixed?
OK - time for a step back.
How many of us have had the pleasure of changing a knuckle? Raise your hand.
Here's the problem I see. If it was a drawbar pulled out, then yeah, you better mobilize the troops, find another engine and start splitting crossings. But a knuckle is usually a quick fix. By the time you get everything pulled apart, you could have changed it out 3 times. So, what do you do? Just try to fix it and go about your way, or take a gamble and try to find another crew and engine to start towards your train - just to arrive in time for you to have it fixed?
ICLand Murphy Siding: Sorry. I'll try to be less self-affirming with my analysis substituting pre-determined conclusions for actual facts. Actually, it was just a question. I guess I'm suggesting that things might be different now than in 1973. I can't say that you've convinced me otherwise. No need to be snide or sarcastic. If it was "just a question," it didn't need to come fully loaded with your implied answer. I would always caution anyone truly interested in a fair answer to respect the conversation by posing the fair question first. You really can't go wrong that way, can you?
Murphy Siding: Sorry. I'll try to be less self-affirming with my analysis substituting pre-determined conclusions for actual facts. Actually, it was just a question. I guess I'm suggesting that things might be different now than in 1973. I can't say that you've convinced me otherwise.
Sorry. I'll try to be less self-affirming with my analysis substituting pre-determined conclusions for actual facts. Actually, it was just a question. I guess I'm suggesting that things might be different now than in 1973. I can't say that you've convinced me otherwise.
No need to be snide or sarcastic. If it was "just a question," it didn't need to come fully loaded with your implied answer. I would always caution anyone truly interested in a fair answer to respect the conversation by posing the fair question first. You really can't go wrong that way, can you?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
For all you that are decrying the amount of time it took the CN crew to resolve this situation....find a area that has walking conditions similar to main track ballasted tracks...with a sloped ballast shoulder for crewmen to walk on and vehicles to inspect every 30-40 feet (inspection that is more than just a passing glance) and see how long it takes .... especially those that believe said crewman should have in his posession all possible mechanical parts and tools to fix the possible problems that could have stopped the train in the first place. Inspecting trains for mechanical defects is not like taking a afternoon walk around the streets and sidewalks of one's neighborhood.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Murphy Siding I was thinking along the lines of a railroads having more switchers around working in yards back in 1973 than today. Sure, a switcher working 20 minutes away could possibly come help out, if.....there is a switcher working 20 minutes away. In general, it seems like that would be less likely today than in 1973.
In 1973, we did, in fact, have a trailing freight about two hours out, and the train with the incident was ten miles out of the yard. I can neither speculate that this CN train had a switcher in close proximity or a trailing freight close by or that it didn't. My initial reading of this Thread saw arguments about how the rail traffic had made this a heavily congested line in a relatively urban area. That led to one conclusion. The observation that someone else thought that it was a light line of only ten trains a day leads to another conclusion assuming trains were evenly spaced throughout the day.
What I can finally conclude is that 1) non-railroaders have one set of expectations, 2) some "railroaders" would like the railfans to believe there should be no expectations.
I can't say that reasonable expectations of respect for public safety and convenience are, ipso facto, wrong. They may be unrealistic, but the concept is valid at some level. As I have attempted to suggest, there are plenty of reasons, in the self-interest of the railroad industry, to accomodate the reasonable expectations of the public, because when the crisis comes, positioning highway access after a knuckle break is just useful practice for the Hazmat incident.
And for those in the rail industry who downplay it, I will say that they are in minority. Responsible officials do, in fact, plan around these incidents, and for them, and denigrating the public for expecting something that is, in fact, the admitted responsibility of the industry just doesn't serve a purpose.
Maybe it makes somebody feel better or tougher or some serves some psychological need I am unaware of, but issues of public safety are legitimate issues. There's no special "Railroad Exemption"' and there never will be. I don't always agree with the sometimes unrealistically high expectations expressed, but this idea that legitimate public concerns automatically deserve epithets, name-calling, condescension, and abuse is ultimately self-destructive. Fortunately, responsible people in the rail industry do, in fact, see it differently.
Murphy Siding Sorry. I'll try to be less self-affirming with my analysis substituting pre-determined conclusions for actual facts. Actually, it was just a question. I guess I'm suggesting that things might be different now than in 1973. I can't say that you've convinced me otherwise.
The posts on this Thread all seem to agree that utilization of crossings is much higher now than in past times. Liability for negligence is arguably greater now than 40 years ago. Trains are running closer together than 40 years ago, and presumably even more available to provide back-up power to pull a stuck train off of key crossings. The public relations effect, due to increasing population density, is far greater than it was 40 years ago. The public need (and the railroad's need) to ensure crossing availability in the case of a railroad accident or other emergencies is surely greater than ever. The railroad's ability to provide faster response is enhanced by modern communications.
I think we did a pretty good job 40 years ago. I think railroads do a better job today, and must do so in order to be "lean and competitive."
.The resources are much better, and I think they are deployed much better today. They can afford to. That wasn't always the case in the 1970s. For all of the reasons posted, I do think it is much more important today than 40 years ago, as the Barrington situation seems to suggest, because the implications and impact on society -- a society that still includes railroads -- is much greater. More trains, more people, more impact. I still can't tell if this is a "Well, Duh," thread, or something else.
CN just didn't happen do a very good job in this case. That happens. It will never be a perfect world. That's why on the one hand I can't get too worked up over it; its a learning experience and if I had a concern, it would be over a certain reputation CN has gained, or earned, as the case may be and maybe this is part of that. But, I'm not there, CN is not part of my world, and I can't waste my breath on whether or not this is symptomatic of the CN, or whether Barrington is composed of just plain bad people or whatever the point of this thread is really supposed to be.
You forgot the Judge telling the bailiff, “Bailiff, whack his …..” Standard discipline for delaying commuter trains everywhere.
You forgot the Judge telling the bailiff, “Bailiff, whack his …..”
Standard discipline for delaying commuter trains everywhere.
Randy Stahl I hope someone from the CN us reading this .... First I would place the conductor into a health and fitness club , obviously he walks too slow on ballast shoulders. Everyone here is blaming the CN when the fact is the only one to blame is the train crew. All trains operating on the former EJ&E must have airhoses taped to prevent a hose from coming apart All trains on the "J" must have drawbars chained to prevent train separation. All trains at initial terminals must have all draft components magnafluxed as part of the number one airbrake test . Any car owner who's car has a mechanical defect that delays traffic will be party to the costs of installing overpasses. Each car operating on the EJ&E territory will have automatic devices to uncouple cars in the event a crossing needs to be cut, these devices will be fitted as part of the number one airbrake test. The use of endangered monkeys is acceptable. If a crossing is blocked for more than 10 minutes, the engine house laborers will be fired All broken knuckles will be considered as insubordination by the engineers of all previous trains that handled the car and grounds for termination regardless of the railroad that employs the engineers. Any engineer who willfully and knowingly breaks a knuckle will be considered incompetent and immediately promoted to management. Any mechanical department employee that inspects a train at its initial terminal will be spanked in front of his/her peers if a broken knuckle is found. Anyone who bitches about being inundated with stupid rules and regulations shall be vanquished to servitude in Barrington Hills forever.
I hope someone from the CN us reading this ....
First I would place the conductor into a health and fitness club , obviously he walks too slow on ballast shoulders. Everyone here is blaming the CN when the fact is the only one to blame is the train crew.
All trains operating on the former EJ&E must have airhoses taped to prevent a hose from coming apart
All trains on the "J" must have drawbars chained to prevent train separation.
All trains at initial terminals must have all draft components magnafluxed as part of the number one airbrake test .
Any car owner who's car has a mechanical defect that delays traffic will be party to the costs of installing overpasses.
Each car operating on the EJ&E territory will have automatic devices to uncouple cars in the event a crossing needs to be cut, these devices will be fitted as part of the number one airbrake test. The use of endangered monkeys is acceptable.
If a crossing is blocked for more than 10 minutes, the engine house laborers will be fired
All broken knuckles will be considered as insubordination by the engineers of all previous trains that handled the car and grounds for termination regardless of the railroad that employs the engineers.
Any mechanical department employee that inspects a train at its initial terminal will be spanked in front of his/her peers if a broken knuckle is found.
Anyone who bitches about being inundated with stupid rules and regulations shall be vanquished to servitude in Barrington Hills forever.
Murphy Siding Bucyrus: Murphy Siding: ICLand: "Murphy Siding" wrote: Was that a modern day occurence, or back before railroads rationalized manpower and equipment to stay lean and competitive? 1973. Be cautious with self-affirming analysis that substitutes a pre-determined conclusion for actual facts. Sorry. I'll try to be less self-affirming with my analysis substituting pre-determined conclusions for actual facts. Actually, it was just a question. I guess I'm suggesting that things might be different now than in 1973. I can't say that you've convinced me otherwise. In which ways do you suspect that things would have been different? I was thinking along the lines of a railroads having more switchers around working in yards back in 1973 than today. Sure, a switcher working 20 minutes away could possibly come help out, if.....there is a switcher working 20 minutes away. In general, it seems like that would be less likely today than in 1973.
Bucyrus: Murphy Siding: ICLand: "Murphy Siding" wrote: Was that a modern day occurence, or back before railroads rationalized manpower and equipment to stay lean and competitive? 1973. Be cautious with self-affirming analysis that substitutes a pre-determined conclusion for actual facts. Sorry. I'll try to be less self-affirming with my analysis substituting pre-determined conclusions for actual facts. Actually, it was just a question. I guess I'm suggesting that things might be different now than in 1973. I can't say that you've convinced me otherwise. In which ways do you suspect that things would have been different?
Murphy Siding: ICLand: "Murphy Siding" wrote: Was that a modern day occurence, or back before railroads rationalized manpower and equipment to stay lean and competitive? 1973. Be cautious with self-affirming analysis that substitutes a pre-determined conclusion for actual facts. Sorry. I'll try to be less self-affirming with my analysis substituting pre-determined conclusions for actual facts. Actually, it was just a question. I guess I'm suggesting that things might be different now than in 1973. I can't say that you've convinced me otherwise.
ICLand: "Murphy Siding" wrote: Was that a modern day occurence, or back before railroads rationalized manpower and equipment to stay lean and competitive? 1973. Be cautious with self-affirming analysis that substitutes a pre-determined conclusion for actual facts.
"Murphy Siding" wrote: Was that a modern day occurence, or back before railroads rationalized manpower and equipment to stay lean and competitive?
Was that a modern day occurence, or back before railroads rationalized manpower and equipment to stay lean and competitive?
1973.
Be cautious with self-affirming analysis that substitutes a pre-determined conclusion for actual facts.
In which ways do you suspect that things would have been different?
That might be the case. I have no idea how easy it may or may not have been to have gotten another engine out there. Usually, I would expect the crew would just want to deal with it and get going asap. If you cut the crossing, you have to re-couple that cut. It is extra work. If you call for help, it will take more time maybe.
However, the problem with the crew dealing with the break as the most direct assistance, is that time can really slow down when you are moving trains in small switching type moves. To be clear, I mean it takes more time and time seems to go by faster.
After all this discussion, it would be really interesting to know the first hand information as to exactly what did happen with this Barrington incident.
As others have mentioned, there is some local activism that is still riled up over the CN coming in. Perhaps much ado was made of nothing in order to use the incident to campaign for a very expensive public works project. There might be $100-million riding on making a big deal of the CN blockage. Or maybe not.
With all the publicity, though, I would think CN would have explained it clearly to the public. Did I miss that?
Bucyrus Murphy Siding: ICLand: "Murphy Siding" wrote: Was that a modern day occurence, or back before railroads rationalized manpower and equipment to stay lean and competitive? 1973. Be cautious with self-affirming analysis that substitutes a pre-determined conclusion for actual facts. Sorry. I'll try to be less self-affirming with my analysis substituting pre-determined conclusions for actual facts. Actually, it was just a question. I guess I'm suggesting that things might be different now than in 1973. I can't say that you've convinced me otherwise. In which ways do you suspect that things would have been different?
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.