Christie just came back from an 8 day trip testing the waters for his ascent to Washington, DC as the Presidential candidate for the Tea Partiers.
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schlimm 1. Gov. Christie wanted, at some point in this convoluted story, to use the "saved" NJ share for the tunnel project and use it for road building/repair. I don't see how saving NJ taxpayers' money has anything to do with the issue if he spends it elsewhere.
1. Gov. Christie wanted, at some point in this convoluted story, to use the "saved" NJ share for the tunnel project and use it for road building/repair. I don't see how saving NJ taxpayers' money has anything to do with the issue if he spends it elsewhere.
He might be thinking that the road work has got to be done one way or the other, so if the tunnel goes forward, they will have to pay for road work plus the tunnel.
Perhaps germane to this discussion are two points:
2. Gov. Christie is the step-nephew of the recently deceased Mafia chief of NJ, Tino "The Greek" Fiumara. Given the level of corruption in NJ, rivaled only by Illinois, one wonders about possible Mafia influence: more connections in road than tunnel building? Just speculating.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
henry6 I've got to get political here and say that Tea Party thinkng is populist pablum and ignores the realities of life, business, and politics in the greater picture. So what that Christie has won, NJ and its residents have lost.: by his lies, his deception, his ego, his political aspirations, or his total lack of understanding of how things really work! You can't say there is no money because he refuses to raise gas tax, one of the lowest in the nation, nor would he negotiate with anybody.
I've got to get political here and say that Tea Party thinkng is populist pablum and ignores the realities of life, business, and politics in the greater picture. So what that Christie has won, NJ and its residents have lost.: by his lies, his deception, his ego, his political aspirations, or his total lack of understanding of how things really work! You can't say there is no money because he refuses to raise gas tax, one of the lowest in the nation, nor would he negotiate with anybody.
You mentioned the realities of life. One reality of life is that if you tax people enough, they stop producing because the effort outweighs the reward.
I can’t see how Christie is advancing his political aspirations, as you say, when he is doing something that you contend is against the will of the people. If Christie is cutting finding for political points, there must be somebody besides him that thinks the tunnel is a money pit the state can’t afford.
What makes you think you can take whatever funding from the taxpayers that the Infrastructurists say we need?
A reality of life is the whole country needs to conserve money in order to cultivate a strengthening economy, and stop listening to these tooth fairy Keynesian economists that tell us that the road to recovery is borrowing and spending money.
But if you take into account the money alread spent, take into account he includes the Portal Bridge over runs and not just the ARC over runs, if you take into account what NJ will have to spend anyway whether alloted or not he is gaining nothing at best and putting the state in a big hole in the long run. I've got to get political here and say that Tea Party thinkng is populist pablum and ignores the realities of life, business, and politics in the greater picture. So what that Christie has won, NJ and its residents have lost.: by his lies, his deception, his ego, his political aspirations, or his total lack of understanding of how things really work! You can't say there is no money because he refuses to raise gas tax, one of the lowest in the nation, nor would he negotiate with anybody. King Christie and Hot Tea! Wrong for America!
henry6,
Christie says they don't have the money. If a project can overrun from 8.7 billion to 13.7 billion, why is there any reason to believe it will end at 13.7 billion? If you place too much burden on the taxpayers of NJ in future taxes, they will move to another state. I don’t buy your claim that if the tunnel does not get built, nobody will get to work, or your claim that there is zero possibility of expanding highway capacity in the area. If the infrastructure boosters had their way, there would be no end to the amount of money they would spend or the reasons they would offer for needing to spend it. Part of politics is indeed closing the wallet and walking away.
But if you read the Morris Daily Record article, and if you know anything about planning and projects, you therefore know that Christie has done just that: left the problem to the next Governor and at greater expense. If the cost was only the dollar outlay of today, then you'd be right. But there is so much more to government and the management of public works than just closing the wallet and walking away. This guy hasn't even offered alternative programs and rejected all advice of planners, et al, and rejected all attempts by others to help the situation. Lets look at the business angle: business needs people to be able to get to and from their jobs so they can afford to buy that business's products, be able to get to and from that business for jobs, to pay taxes, to grease the wheels. If no one can get to work then where's the income to come from to bolster big business by being able to get to jobs and to have income to purchase the products. And if there is no income, who is going to pay politicians...even graft has to have a source.
What is really precious is the bandwagon of public spending advocates asking us to believe their low estimates of cost overrun. There would not be cost overruns if their estimates were reliable in the first place.
With the level of credit a big, prosperous nation has, it is easy to spend money like the credit has no limit. But despite how much many of us want things, there is a certain reality about spending money. And the U.S. is in the midst of conducting a practical experiment to measure its financial credit by spending money until it runs out. At least then we will finally have the concrete knowledge of exactly how much credit we have (or had).
Train boosters are quick to declare that reducing spending is a political ploy without recognizing that spending public money is also a political ploy.
When Christie says that NJ can’t afford it, what exactly is the proper response to that claim?
Here is some interesting information including the revelation that, through a federal loan program, NJ could have put off repayment of the $8.7 billion plus overruns until 2016. So if Christie were really a political opportunist, he could have postponed the problem for the next governor:
http://www.dailyrecord.com/article/20101031/OPINION01/101029034/-1/LIFEFRONT/So+much+for+the+tunnel++Christie+s+refreshing+approach
blue streak 1 Excuse me for being very cynical. This decision is all about political ambitions and the playing to the electorate that says "I got mine (automobile roads) now you will not get yours" (that way no new taxes?) A politician will always kiss up to whomever he or she thinks will get them elected or reelected?u
Excuse me for being very cynical. This decision is all about political ambitions and the playing to the electorate that says "I got mine (automobile roads) now you will not get yours" (that way no new taxes?) A politician will always kiss up to whomever he or she thinks will get them elected or reelected?u
No reason to excuse you, several of us have pointed out the same. But the fact is that this guy has at least two more years as Governor unless the American people feel he should be President. (At present it could be argued that he is not acting like the Governor of NJ but more like what he thinks the 2012 Tea Party Presidentlal candidate should be like.) He stops this tunnel project now and so many positive things won't happen in NJ in the next 25 or more years, he is actually choking the status quo while preventing a growth for the future. He is not a leader but a man bent on a mission to salve his ego and enlarge his purse.
Here's a more direct link to the Morris Record news story that henry6 cited:
http://www.dailyrecord.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2010101030016
For those interested in the topic rather than semantics check out www.dailyrecord.com, the Morris Record in NJ, today's (Sat 10/30) story about "The Cost of Killing the NY-NJ Tunnel". Very revealing at what stooping for a penny can do when dollars are the goals. I do understand one statement from a Rutgers's prof saying jobs in NYC are or will not be as important in the future as in the past. OK. But that gives jobs, now and in the future, to those who live in NY and CT, while NJ certainly won't supply the same number nor necessarily the quality. The expected ratables by local politicians are revealing as are other expected positive results should the, or a, tunnel project be completed. Transit times will lengthen as more people do work in NYC or those in NY and CT come to NJ to work (if what the Rutger's prof says is correct). The article, nor anyone else, has taken into account the number of NY'ers from west of the Hudson and those commuters from PA who travel across NJ to get to NYC. If their transportation needs aren't taken care of they will be taking more from NJians than they are now. Then there is the amount of pollutants expected not to be put into the air on top of what's already there (and deemed bad). All information points toward the demise of this project being more costly if not done. The conversations here indicate that such project in the future will only be more costly than now. And even if Christie were to get "someone else" to pay for it, it would still land on his taxpayers in some way or another. Only Nancy Reagan got away with just saying "no".
henry6 Thinking and linking big business and public projects, the question arises: isn't it big business doing public projects? So how often is it the big business's fault for the cost over run rather than the fact that it is a public project? Is not big business taking advantage of the fact that it is is a public project and therefore can bid low, overlook whatever, and when the time comes send an bloated invoice for services rendered?
Thinking and linking big business and public projects, the question arises: isn't it big business doing public projects? So how often is it the big business's fault for the cost over run rather than the fact that it is a public project? Is not big business taking advantage of the fact that it is is a public project and therefore can bid low, overlook whatever, and when the time comes send an bloated invoice for services rendered?
Ultimately, it is the responsibility of the public sector management to control the bidding process, and the performance of the private sector contractors on public projects. It is the same as with a private sector project where the general contractor will control the bidding and performance of the sub-contractors. If the sub-contractors don’t perform, they don’t get paid. If they overcharge, the general contractor refuses payment.
greyhounds schlimm: Since the mantra of many "free market" advocates is that all corporate taxes are ultimately passed on to the end consumer, it follows that the cost overruns can be as well. Since in many cases we do not actually have a competitive free market, the market does not act to restrain the pass through. If you're going to use this, please use it correctly. It's not a "mantra", it's reality. And nobody said corporate taxes are all ultimately passed on to their customers. The taxes are passed on to one of three entitites: 1) the consumers, 2) the investors, 3 the employees. The customers may be charged more, the investors may see less of a return (which means less investment and dimiinished economic activity), and/or there will be fewer employees drawing wages. These are the only places the businesses have to get the money to pay the taxes, and they've got to get it somewhere.
schlimm: Since the mantra of many "free market" advocates is that all corporate taxes are ultimately passed on to the end consumer, it follows that the cost overruns can be as well. Since in many cases we do not actually have a competitive free market, the market does not act to restrain the pass through.
Since the mantra of many "free market" advocates is that all corporate taxes are ultimately passed on to the end consumer, it follows that the cost overruns can be as well. Since in many cases we do not actually have a competitive free market, the market does not act to restrain the pass through.
If you're going to use this, please use it correctly. It's not a "mantra", it's reality. And nobody said corporate taxes are all ultimately passed on to their customers.
The taxes are passed on to one of three entitites: 1) the consumers, 2) the investors, 3 the employees. The customers may be charged more, the investors may see less of a return (which means less investment and dimiinished economic activity), and/or there will be fewer employees drawing wages.
These are the only places the businesses have to get the money to pay the taxes, and they've got to get it somewhere.
Well, in a post earlier this year, you said much the same thing, except for your conclusion. Have you changed your mind on that?
"Only people pay taxes. Corporations only have three sources of money to pay the taxes. (Or any other expense for that matter.) All three sources are people. They can get it from their customers. They can get it from their employees. And they can get it from their investors. There is no other place for them to get the money.
For customers this tax will mean higher fuel prices. This will decrease their buying power and further harm the economy. Eventually, all costs go through to the end users. i.e. us." [My emphasis bold]
schlimm Bucyrus: If a business has a cost overrun, why should anyone other than the business or its investors care? Since the mantra of many "free market" advocates is that all corporate taxes are ultimately passed on to the end consumer, it follows that the cost overruns can be as well. Since in many cases we do not actually have a competitive free market, the market does not act to restrain the pass through.
Bucyrus: If a business has a cost overrun, why should anyone other than the business or its investors care?
If a business has a cost overrun, why should anyone other than the business or its investors care?
Paul_D_North_Jr Not to get sidetracked on a political 'rant' here, but - I believe by law or custom there, Swiss men are required to keep in their homes and bear arms for the defense of their country. Not just hunting rifles or shotguns, either - the real deal, military-style assault rifles. Right effective, too - they haven't been invaded - let alone successfully - in quite a few centuries, either, despite the history of that kind of thing over there . . . - Paul North.
Not to get sidetracked on a political 'rant' here, but - I believe by law or custom there, Swiss men are required to keep in their homes and bear arms for the defense of their country. Not just hunting rifles or shotguns, either - the real deal, military-style assault rifles. Right effective, too - they haven't been invaded - let alone successfully - in quite a few centuries, either, despite the history of that kind of thing over there . . .
- Paul North.
Paul,
I had not considered that, but it does certainly suggest a vigilant society. And that vigilance would be likely to get applied to limiting their government as well as defending against external enemies.
henry6 Big business does have cost over runs, they just don't talk about it. And I don't understand about private people doing public works...that has always been that way. Public oversight and supervision with 99% of the job contracted out to design and construction. Too many governments, etc. are involved in something to have any one of them be the contractor, so it has to be sent out to private industry to do the work.
Big business does have cost over runs, they just don't talk about it.
And I don't understand about private people doing public works...that has always been that way. Public oversight and supervision with 99% of the job contracted out to design and construction. Too many governments, etc. are involved in something to have any one of them be the contractor, so it has to be sent out to private industry to do the work.
I am not quite sure what your point is, but I will point out that just because the public sector work is performed by private sector business, it does not mean that resulting cost overruns are examples of private sector cost overrun and/or inefficiencies. It is the public sector that is in the driver's seat on these public sector projects, even though private sector business is performing the actual tasks.
Politics and tradition hold things back. The status quo is comfortable. The future belongs to the future, the present is mine. If any of you do the CRYPTOQUOTE in your morning paper, today's is interesting, A quote from Gail Sheehy: "If we don't change, we don't grow. If we don't grow, we aren't really living." There' s no living in Jersey!
Of course! Two tracks Secaucus to Penn Sta. Forget the stub sta. under 34th St. In time Penn Sta and GCT should be connected with trrough trains stopping at both. That can be done later.
Bill McDonald
Henry;
Right on! Glad to see someone thinks with a brain.
True, but I said that a competitive free market often is not present, so "it doesn't act to restrain" in the way that it would in your example.
Corporate taxes can be passed onto the consumer because they are levied as an expense on all corporations, and therefore, there is no competitive force acting from one corporation to another that prevents the cost from being passed to the consumer.
A cost overrun or any cost other than taxes can be controlled by each individual corporation. So if a corporation suffers some kind of cost increase and tries to pass it on to its customers, they will just shift their purchase to another corporation that has lower costs, and therefore can charge a lower price.
So it does not follow that because corporations can pass on their corporate taxes to the consumer, they can also pass on other costs.
Do you want to know why other countries can do projects cheaper?
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Bucyrus If a business has a cost overrun, why should anyone other than the business or its investors care?
henry6 The point is who says business doesn't have cost over runs?
The point is who says business doesn't have cost over runs?
Nobody has said that.
I think the point is this: If a business has a cost overrun, why should anyone other than the business or its investors care?
Anyway, a new poll taken by Rutgers University released today shows that a majority of those who don't commute to NY approve Christie's rejection of the project while those who do commute to NY are upset. Film at 11.
henry6 Big business does have cost over runs, they just don't talk about it.
Yes, but I have no stake in the cost overruns of private business, whereas I do have a stake in public sector cost overruns because I contribute to the funding.
Business can police themselves. The public sector needs to policed by the public.
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