ns3010 PORTAL was one of the cost overruns that Christie was conerned about. This version of PORTAL is interesting because they are raised, fixed bridges. That would be the end of PORTAL interlocking. One less potential problem to worry about.
PORTAL was one of the cost overruns that Christie was conerned about.
This version of PORTAL is interesting because they are raised, fixed bridges. That would be the end of PORTAL interlocking. One less potential problem to worry about.
If I remember correctly Portal was going to have a new bridge with 2 or 3 tracks that was going to be high enough for no draw bridge to be required. The original Portal draw was to be replaced at the same location with a new draw. I would suspect that a second high bridge would jack the cost up substantially maybe the whole Portal project to around $2.8 - 3.5B??? It certainly seems more logical to remove completely the old Portal draw bridge so there are never any draw bridge delays instead of a half way solution of rebuilding the draw span. Less cost in future if Portal draw was later retired.
I reviewed the May 19th 2010 final NEC master plan. The plan shows Portal interlocking remaining in service with connections to/from all 4 tracks. The ARC planed route is in that plan and ARC did not connect at Portal. Just one more downer for ARC IMHO.. It may be since Dock CP (just east of Newark Penn station) does not have full connections to all present and future tracks that AMTRAK felt that Portal interlocking is still needed. With the new tunnel(s) 2 tracks diverging to the south an interlocking at the North river tunnel connecting them is not shown. At least there would not be the 60 MPH slow over the new Portal bridge that is in effect now. AMTRAK shows that as a 2 minute reduction in transit time vs present times.
Another cost that probably increases the costs is the installation of constant tension CAT over that segment. The 4 tracking from Newark to the tunnel entrances may also be included now???.
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oltmannd . ...it includes new Portage bridges, too. Not included in ARC price.
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...it includes new Portage bridges, too. Not included in ARC price.
Correct: AMTRAK's May 2010 estimate of the Portal bridges costs was $1.8B. However upon examining this proposal there appears to be significant additional items on the Portal bridge.?? Also the 4 tracking of the NEC from Newark Penn station to the tunnel portal was not included in ARC.
henry6 Some major differences which justify and explain cost differences. First, this connects with and becomes part of the current NYP complex, thus through connections are included. Second, its approach in NJ will probably be different than the projected looping for NJT..but that still may be a part of it. And third, Amtrak is part of it, gains something from it, thus shares some of the costs. NJ, in fact, could end up paying the same or more than what Christie has alread rejected (my opinion, no fact to back me up) but Christie has already praised the new plan.
Some major differences which justify and explain cost differences. First, this connects with and becomes part of the current NYP complex, thus through connections are included. Second, its approach in NJ will probably be different than the projected looping for NJT..but that still may be a part of it. And third, Amtrak is part of it, gains something from it, thus shares some of the costs. NJ, in fact, could end up paying the same or more than what Christie has alread rejected (my opinion, no fact to back me up) but Christie has already praised the new plan.
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If I recall correctly, this project was estimated to cost $8.7 billion a few months ago when NJ cancelled it, but it is now at $13.5 billion. Let's face it, no one has an idea what the bill might be, but the proponents want us to get into it so deep that there is no choice but to proceed regardless. Can you say "Big Dig"?
Reasonable cost estimates should include the incarceration costs for a number of contractors, union officials and politicians!
henry6 Still and again the most important question to be asked and answered: what will it cost if nothing is done?
Still and again the most important question to be asked and answered: what will it cost if nothing is done?
Maybe a shutdown of service if the present north river tunnels get closed for one reason or another. And if the PATH tunnels have a problem at the same time .................?????
http://lautenberg.senate.gov/assets/Gateway.pdf
Excerpts from Senator Lautenberg's website
NEWARK, N.J. - Today, U.S. Senators Frank R. Lautenberg (D-NJ) and Robert Menendez (D-NJ) joined the President and CEO of Amtrak, Joseph Boardman, and Amtrak board member Anthony Coscia to announce that Amtrak is proposing to spend $50 million to begin preliminary engineering and design on two new rail tunnels from New Jersey to New York City called the "Gateway Project." The new tunnels would significantly increase commuter train capacity by allowing NJ Transit to add an additional 13 trains per peak hour into New York City and it would increase the number of Amtrak trains into New York City by eight per hour.
The Gateway Project is expected to increase NJ Transit commuter rail capacity into New York by 65 percent (increase from 20 to 33 trains per hour during peak hours). The new tunnels will connect to the new Moynihan station as well as to a new Penn Station South that is connected to the existing New York Penn station, which has reached its capacity.Amtrak's plan also includes a total replacement and expansion of the 100 year-old Portal Bridge over the Hackensack River between Kearny and Secaucus. There would also be significant infrastructure improvements in New Jersey including expanding track capacity from what is essentially a two-track railroad to an operationally superior four track configuration between Newark and New York Penn Stations.Amtrak projects that the entire Gateway Tunnel project could be completed in 2020 at an estimated cost of $13.5 billion. Amtrak will take a lead in finding ways to pay the cost and will look for contributions from local, regional and state governments including New Jersey, New York State, New York City, the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, and New York's Metropolitan Transportation Authoirty (MTA), as well as private investors.
Paul_D_North_Jr What the NJT trains will look like in a few years now that the tunnel project has been cancelled . . . coutesy of zardoz's post of 11-18-2010 over on his "The new and (not very) improved humor thread" at - http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/forums/t/148958.aspx?PageIndex=16 zardoz: And you thought your commuter train was crowded...... http://www.i-am-bored.com/bored_link.cfm?link_id=54403 - Paul North.
What the NJT trains will look like in a few years now that the tunnel project has been cancelled . . . coutesy of zardoz's post of 11-18-2010 over on his "The new and (not very) improved humor thread" at - http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/forums/t/148958.aspx?PageIndex=16
zardoz: And you thought your commuter train was crowded...... http://www.i-am-bored.com/bored_link.cfm?link_id=54403
http://www.i-am-bored.com/bored_link.cfm?link_id=54403
- Paul North.
And so this story from News Wire makes even more sense, well, sort of.
LUCKNOW, India – Eighteen people were killed today while riding the roof of an overcrowded train in northern India, the Associated Press reports. Police said they were killed when they slammed into a low overhead bridge. Fourteen were killed on the spot, while four others died in a hospital. Nine others remained hospitalized.
The 18 were among about 200,000 people who had attempted to apply for just 461 jobs being offered by an Indian paramilitary force.
Nance-CCABW/LEI
“Even if you are on the right track, you’ll get run over if you just sit there.” --Will Rogers
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Capital transportation investment is not about yesterday, today or tomorrow.....it is about 10-20-50 years into the future. Those without vision can never see the future and have trouble seeing the past and will continue to be against anything.
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Gateway Tunnel 2020
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/02/07/us-tunnel-newjersey-idUSTRE7164BB20110207
NY City strap hangers are up in arms over the idea of sending their subway trains to, ugh!, Jersey! Especially their beloved 7 Train which is steeped in blue collar tradition and a treasure for Mets and tennis fans. Even subway chornocler Diane Diehl is rebuffed by the idea! I write the above half with tongue in cheek. But the arguements do bring up some serious points of strata in our classless society. NJ white collar excutives, managers, bankers, "professionals", etc. would be expecting more than a subway ride into the City even though they will transfer to a subway when they get there! And with the 7 Train, by and large a "blue coller" service, the design concpet and operation would not be a comfortable fit for many. And the big question is why should the MTA build a train to Jersey? That is besides keeping more cars out of Manhatten and bringing in a good supply of qualified employees?
So. Lets accept all that. Lets, instead, suggest the PATH 33rd St line be extended somehow to Secaucus? PATH certainly has the "authority" and probably the physical ability. After going to Secaucus, it could continue on to Newark or Journal Square above ground to form a circle route. Or over into the lower Passaic Valley along the old Greenwood Lake RR and on into the Oranges or up the Passaic River along the old Erie's roadbed. Lots of room for expansion and thought. No, it wouldn't satisfy the white collers, necessarily, but it would serve their clerks, et al.
zardoz And you thought your commuter train was crowded...... http://www.i-am-bored.com/bored_link.cfm?link_id=54403
This is a mnd boggling concept. On first blush I applaud the concept. After all I am one who has proclaimed the whole NY Metropolitan area a region interdependent upon all its parts and therefore in need of regional planning rather than state and municipal bickering. I am sure the NJ-NY Port Authority is looking hard at this to see if it infringes on their domain or their PATH servcie charter, too.
Second glance this is still a two seat ride to the City nor is it commuter rail but rapid transit instead. Would commuters be satisfied? Would commuters and the need for and use of interregional commuter and non commuter tranpsortation be served. Is this just another band aid to the real problems facing commuter and general movement around the Metropolitan area?
Currently the No. 7 line is being extended further west in Manhattan. Now that the original tunnel is dead there's some thought of simply continuing the No. 7 to New Jersey, at half the cost, according to the article.
Take the No. 7 to Secaucus? Story in the NYT.
This to me comes much closer to what is needed, a better connection to the East side.
Then PATH would have to expand capacity as much as possible and more ferry boats would be put into service with additional routes. Nothing in passenger transportation is impossible.
And now we come to Fri 11/12/10 morning news reports that Amtrak and NJT have called off talks. Amtrak states the tunnel is not in the scope of their service but a commuter problem. I wonder what would happen when things get so bad that Amtrack simply tells NJT they can no longer use the existing ROW into NYP. You know, it might be the best solution to the problem! And if I were NJT I'd be the one to suggest that!!!!
Yeah, but stay tuned. Amtrak and NJT are in the talking stages of possably doing the tunnel.
Loosks like the Feds have thrown their hand into the game (Like THAT was noty expected!)
Found this linked article referencing the Fed's demanding their pay back.
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2010/11/09/us/AP-US-Trans-Hudson-Tunnel.html?_r=2
"NJ Transit Gets $271M Bill for Scrapped Tunnel"
"TRENTON, N.J., (AP) — NJ Transit owes the federal government at least $271 million for the Hudson River rail tunnel that Gov. Chris Christie scrapped last month, a federal official says.
The $8.7 billion project to construct a rail tunnel between New Jersey and New York was 15 years in the making when Christie pulled the plug on Oct. 27, citing potential cost overruns.
The Federal Transit Administration on Monday sent the railroad the bill for the so-called Access to the Region's Core project.
"NJT must immediately repay all the Federal financial assistance expended for ARC under the (work agreement) which is currently estimated to be $271.091 million, plus reasonable interest and penalty charges that will be determined by FTA," regional administrator Brigid Hynes-Cherin wrote in the letter to James Weinstein, executive director of NJ Transit. .."
Additional story at link above
Mon 11/8 Star Ledger and NJ.com are reporting Amtrak and NJT are talking joint venture to dig the ARC.
But if you check out what's happening in the Garden State you'll know that next Spring's planting will be well fertilized. This ARC project is only one of many dollar bills he has played with. There are teachers, government workers at many levels, and just doing his best not to spend a penny except on what he sees fit. So far, no one is sure of what he sees fit. Yes, there are pensions and programs, and certain minimum needs. But he is bringing the status quo to a halt and not just progress. He is arguing with just about everybody. That is when he is in the state. He is spending a lot of time on the Presidential campaign trail in other states lately. So he doesn't have to fight traffic. Or teachers. Or state employees. Or upset constituants. He a Tea Party Crumpet destined for stardom.
At least he has a reason for it instead of saying "I DON'T WANNA DO IT"
Well, there you go - as long as NYC is perceived by many as a desirable location to be able to get to, the result will be higher real estate prices in the places that are more convenient, and lower real estate prices in the places that aren't, than would otherwise be the case.
So we might expect to see that proximity to cause higher prices in the areas with direct land access to the 'Big Apple' = Manhattan island - such as southwestern Connecticut like Greenwich, and southeastern New York State like Westchester County; lower prices in places that are separated only by easily bridged water obstacles, such as the other 4 boroughs/ counties of NYC, and esp. Long Island as here; and the lowest prices in the places that are hardest to get to NYC from, such as the northern counties of NJ. Wonder if there's any more money to be made now by re-instituting more trans-Hudson passenger ferry services from the closest northern NJ towns - that have good highway access, of course ! - in lieu of the rail tunnel's now lost or at least delayed capacity increase ?
And so, yes - NJ will become the isolated island instead of Manhattan, despite what the geography might lead you to expect otherwise. Someone once said that ''Water will run uphill - towards money'' (in the book Cadillac Desert, I believe); this seems to be of like kind, in that only money can overcome those kinds of topographic obstacles.
Fri 11-5 monring news reports that NY Senator Gillabrand has asked Lahood for the $3B rejected by NJ's Chirstie and funnel it to the LIRR East Side Access tunnel!
The subtle overtones of these projects is that certain populations will have access to jobs while others will not. If the LIRR project gets the money then LI'ers will have easier access to jobs than those of NJ. In other words, Christies has blocked his constituates from being able to easily access employment opportunities within their community, i.e., the New York Metropolitan area. NJ itself is not going to become a job capital, at least not the same type of jobs as NYC has to offer.
When Christie says they will use the money for other things, that suggests that they will spend the money. So, it then follows that they do have the money. So that leads me to conclude that Christie believes that there would be more bang for the buck by spending the money on other things rather than on the tunnel. That is my conclusion based on the meaning of words, but I am not convinced that the right words were used.
If the meaning of the words is what Christie meant, then it opens the need for Christie to explain why the value of roads and whatever else the money will be spent on is greater than the value of the tunnel.
He might have been better off just saying that NJ does not have the money for the tunnel, and left it at that.
Bucyrus: In answer to your speculation, I'd say maybe yes, maybe no, depending on whether it is repairs or road expansion. I think you are giving him to much credit for being an idealist. To me the notion that Christie is saving the taxpayers any money is pure political theater. This isn't about political philosophy. Rather, it is using that as an screen to gain voter support, when what he is really doing is spending the money elsewhere for unspecified reasons, which we probably will never know, NJ politics and politicians being what they are..
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