Story in the Wall Street Journal
It's official!http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704696304575538192666930782.html?m\od=WSJ_hps_MIDDLETopStoriesOCTOBER 7, 2010, 2:35 P.M. ETNew Jersey Scraps Tunnel ProjectBy LISA FLEISHERNew Jersey Gov. Chris Christie killed construction of an $8.7 billion railtunnel under the Hudson River on Thursday, ending what had been thelargest transportation project in the U.S. He also urged lawmakers torepurpose the $3 billion in federal money for other transit projects inthe state.Christie had ordered a 30-day halt on construction work until he couldget a reliable cost estimate and determine whether New Jersey couldafford its share of the project. At a press conference Thursday, Mr.Christie said the project was estimated to cost at least $11 billion andas much as $14 billion.The first-year Republican governor said he took no joy in backingaway from the support he gave the tunnel during the gubernatorialcampaign, but insisted he was left with no choice because of the cost."In the end, this decision is a financial decision," Mr. Christie said. "Thestate simply doesn't have the money."He called on the state's U.S. senators to use their "considerableinfluence" to redirect federal money for the rail tunnel to otherprojects. He also said that the $3 billion dedicated to the tunnel fromthe Port Authority of New York and New Jersey should be used completelyin New Jersey.Mr. Christie described the project as a "never-ending hook" becauseNew Jersey -- not the Port Authority, nor the federal government --would pay for cost overruns.New Jersey had committed $2.7 billion to the project. The federalgovernment and Port Authority had each pledged $3 billion. Plans for theproject had been in the works for about 20 years.Mr. Christie said it was unclear whether the state would have to payback any federal money already spent. So far, about $600 million hasbeen spent on the tunnel project. New Jersey could be on the hook torepay half of that to the federal government for breaking itscommitment.Construction on the project began last year and was scheduled to be completed in2018.Currently, NJ Transit and Amtrak share a century-old two-track tunnelbeneath the Hudson River. The new tunnel would have added two moretracks, doubling the number of NJ Transit trains that could pass underthe river to Manhattan.—The Associated Press contributed to this report.
I would guess this comes under the eading of " If you ain't got the money, Honey! Etc,etc. With early costs estimated to overrun in the 3 to 6 BILLION range. It woud get pretty scary for the final figures; everyone knows that Politicians have no concept of figuring theings ver close, especially when it come to a pet project.
Gov. Christie will be lambasted by his critics on both sides of the River, but it was most likely, the soundest decision for a State with the financial out look in New Jersey, at this time.
But I would guess that we have not heard the last of this Donnybrook.
I guess you missed the sentence where he asked the legislature to spend the money on other transportation projects in NJ. That doesn't sound like a financial decision to me. That sounds like a priorities decision. You don't save a penny if you just spend it somewhere else. I bet he will most definitely have to pay back the Feds for the money they have advanced already. That payback will be money that NJ would not have had to spend and for which they will get absolutely nothing in return except the political advantage of saying "I canceled a big government spending project".
I hope all the New Jersey residents who work in Manhattan will remember this little grand standing gesture in November.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
First, some terminology clarification: This is often confusingly - at least to me - referred to as the "ARC" project, which stands for "Access to the Region's Core" - see http://www.arctunnel.com/ While perhaps technically correct in 'planner-speak', that doesn't lead me to an intuitive association with NJT, NYC, NYP, or anything related to them. It's also not terribly 'catchy' or 'sexy' . . .
So now it joins a long list of big tunnel projects with false starts and/ or funding problems - Hoosac Tunnel, the English Channel Tunnel, the one in Seattle, Moffatt Tunnel - probably many others, too. Most of them eventually were dug/ built (?) - I suppose this one will, too - just not real soon, it seems.
Let's examine some numbers. Take $10 Billion as a convenient estimate of the likely 'all-in' cost - assume a Capital Recovery for it based on 30 years at 6 % interest - then what is the daily cost, and how much for each of the 90,000 daily rush-hour trips, per "The Mass Transit Tunnel Project Information Kit" (11 pgs. approx. 3.6 MB in size), at - http://www.arctunnel.com/pdf/news/Tunnel%20Info%20Kit_Dec2009_single%20page%20layout.pdf - http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/forums/AddPost.aspx?ReplyToPostID=1979590&Quote=False [Edited 15 Oct. 2010 10:10 AM to correct the link - PDN.]
Since $1,000 borrowed costs just about $6.00 per month to repay on that basis per any convenient interest rate table or calculator, multiplying both figures by 10 million means that repaying $10 Billion would cost $60 Million per month. If there are on average about 21 working days each month - remember, this is NYC, and the bankers and stock brokers have lots of holidays - that would be $2.86 Million per peak traffic day - that's what's driving the need for this tunnel, not the weekend users. Allocating/ dividing that amount over the projected 90,000 daily rush-hour users - since all would benefit from the increased and faster service - yields about $31.75 additional per trip. Would those riders pay that much more - in addition to whatever they're paying now - to be able to take the train, instead of having to drive in and endure rush-hour traffic delays and pay premium rates for Manhattan parking spaces ? Compared to how much they earn per hour once they get to those jobs ? The janitors likely won't use it, but I'll bet many of the white-collar types would, even at those rates. So, yeah - let the users pay for it, not the taxpayers. It's NYC real estate that would really benefit, not the average NJ taxpayer - even if all 90,000 riders come from Jersey - from the improved access provided by the tunnel. So let NJT and/ or PATH float some revenue bonds to be repaid from fares by the tunnel users, and finish the tunnel on their own dime.
- Paul North.
New Jersey benefits from easy access to Manhattan more than NYC benefits from access to NJ.
I don't know when people began to believe that infrastructure is not a societal responsibility or that we should return to the days of every man for himself, but I strongly disagree with the idea. Our society uses common funds to provide many services that not everyone uses. I have no need for a school system, I have never had to call the fire department, I not only don't need, but I strongly disapprove of our establishment of a military presence all over the world. However my tax money is used to fund all of those things. That is the nature of living in a civilized society instead of standing on your own. There is strength in banding together and working toward a common purpose.
I will probably never use that tunnel, but I still believe that it should be built with public money.
I posted this on the TRAINS Transit page yesterday:
NJ Gov Christie is reputed to be ready to kill the ARC tunnel and move the money to roads in NJ. This sets NJ back at least 30 years! Roads are full of traffic, the air full of pollutants, the land full of tar and concrete. You cannot build anymore roads in NJ and patching up what is there is only a band aid on the status quo! As more people have to be moved into and out of NYC, into and out of New Jersey, a better system has to be built. That system includes rails and holes dug under the Hudson. Planners, scientists, transportation experts, environmentalist, even Republican and Democrats seem tohave finally got grip on those facts, so why has not the Governor of the State? Conservatism in holding onto and preserving the past is a lot more expensive that the ARC project. Or is there another rail/tunnel plan in the works? Christie is just not making sense for New Jersey or the region. Why save money now when it will cost more later on. Or does he really want everybody who lives in North Jersey and Pennsylvania to move to Long Island, Westchester, and Conneticuit? Then who will pay his tax bills?
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20 years of planning(even if its bad planning), and fat boy sends it down the drain.maybe he does not realize he is screwing middle class, it takes jobs to pay taxes.It takes transportation to get to these jobs.If project cost is 8.7 now no matter how you slice it it will be 10.8 when restarted after fat boy is gone.
$8.7 billion is just a little less than the Swiss will spend to build the 35 mile long Gotthard Base Tunnel.
And Switzerland has a very high cost of living. Perhaps questions should be raised about why so much, not whether or not.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
For someone who is very pro-rail and pro-mass transit, I'm actually on the fence about this. Symbolically it's a huge set back for commuters in the NJ-NY area and further proof of Mr. Christie's distain for mass transit (it's no secret he's a pro-highway guy). BUT at the same time, I was very upset that tunnels would not to connect into the existing Penn Station. Perhaps this set back could fix that problem. It would actually make more sense since there has been talk of expanding the footprint of the existing Penn Station trackage and the extra tubes would come in handy.
For those not in the know, there has been talk of razing the entire block bounded by 7th and 8th Avenues and 31st and 30th Streets, expanding Penn Station and then building some new office and residential towers on top of it. It would have given Penn Station another 8 or so tracks.
The two most pertinent points now are: 1) Christie pulls the plug but offers no substitute or alternative plan. and 2) wants to use the $8.7B for repaving highways, a real no choice, no plan. He has set NJ, the Metropolitan Area, the East Coast, and the rest of the Country back 30 to 50 years! And if his plans to pave the roads succeeds to happen, NJ will lose so much money, so much population, so much business, so much manufacturing that it will be worse than any third world country. It just plain doesn't make sense to pull the plug and not do something else that would be a real attempt at solving the problem of moving people!
Phoebe Vet I guess you missed the sentence where he asked the legislature to spend the money on other transportation projects in NJ. That doesn't sound like a financial decision to me. That sounds like a priorities decision. You don't save a penny if you just spend it somewhere else. I bet he will most definitely have to pay back the Feds for the money they have advanced already. That payback will be money that NJ would not have had to spend and for which they will get absolutely nothing in return except the political advantage of saying "I canceled a big government spending project". I hope all the New Jersey residents who work in Manhattan will remember this little grand standing gesture in November.
You are correct, Gov. Christie is definitely a pro-highway guy; based on some of the stories I've read. Years bac I used to spend quite a bit of time in the Northeast traveling all over. There was then and I would assume there is now, a real need to spend money on New Jersey's roads and streets. It seems that most of the recent government monies have gone to fiscal needs based on previous financial arrangements. From a distance New Jersey seems to have done a fair job in the mode of mass transit, an area of benefits to the population. There is also no argument that the additional capacity provided by a new tunnel would benefit mostly New Yorkers, but a side benefit to New Jersey and to Pennsylvania commuters as an ancilklary benefit of greater mass transit capacity.
As to the political part of the Christie decision, I cannot make a current argument for or against it. I do remember that most New Jersey decisions used to have a political component, from very little to major collateral damage to those involved in both the decisions and their effects. I agree that the tunnel should probably be built and matched with Federal funds to some level. It would be somewhere around the type of infrastructure as the "BIG Dig" in Mass. Similarly, the same argument could be made in Jersey as was made in Mass for such construction.
My guess is the major cloud on Christie's horizon is the aftermath of the previous State administration which spent monies according to its' own agenda.
[quote user="samfp1943"]
There is also no argument that the additional capacity provided by a new tunnel would benefit mostly New Yorkers,
/quote]
It seems to me the tunnels with NJT trains in them would benefit people who live in NJ who have jobs in Manhattan, not the other way around. And the tunnels are designed to handle a future commuter load. Without that added capacity, many of the current and future commuters might need to relocate to Westchester County and beyond or the island. And that will hurt New Jersey, long range. But I guess it's all about the short term in our economic decisions.
Maybe not such a bad thing. There were those who thought a tunnel terminating in a dead end, many stories underground was not the way to go. We can hope that a better and more economical design will emerge and be built.
Mike
If I recall correctly, didn't the Pennsy have rights to build a second set of tunnels? Have there been any plans to simply add one or two more tubes to the present Penn Station and leave the station trackage expansion for a future step? The investment in additional tunnels could be put to use right away, making some increase to station capacity and allowing the original tubes to be shut down for inspection, repair and renovation. Eventually, the station footprint itself could be expanded in a separate project. Speaking of expansion, why the proposal to expand the block south instead of north? I would think that it would work better to expand to the block north for easier connection with the 33rd Street tunnels to Long Island.
Any new tunnels...what would be the diameter/clearences compared to the existing tubes? Especially if there is a long term plan to add to the station itself, would increased clearences (allowing bilevel equipment, at least on NJT) be part of it?
And, one question about Penn Station that has nagged at me for years. There are 11 platforms but only 21 tracks, not 22 as one would expect (assuming one track on each side of the platform). According to a diagram on page 123 of Penn Station, It's Tunnels and Side-Rodders, platform #10 is almost 50 feet wide-a welcome dimension, I'm sure but one that would seem to allow plenty of room for an additional track (the track along the south face already serves platform #9). While it seems a small thing, one more platform face would increase capacity by 5%.
Those folks who live in New Jersey and commute to Manhattan (and there are lots and lots of them) will no doubt find those newly paved highways (courtesy of their beloved Governor spending THEIR tax dollars) to be smoothe as silk while they are negotiating those same highways at a whopping 5 mph or so while stuck in traffic trying to get into Manhattan and rather than sitting on a train doing 60 mph or so through the stillborn tunnel...enjoy your highways Jerseyites!
eolafan Those folks who live in New Jersey and commute to Manhattan (and there are lots and lots of them) will no doubt find those newly paved highways (courtesy of their beloved Governor spending THEIR tax dollars) to be smoothe as silk while they are negotiating those same highways at a whopping 5 mph or so while stuck in traffic trying to get into Manhattan and rather than sitting on a train doing 60 mph or so through the stillborn tunnel...enjoy your highways Jerseyites!
Runtimes of 2 to 4 hours to go from the area of the NJ Tpk junction with I80/I-95 to the toll Booths at the west end of the GW bridge. The hill going East , for trucks can be a killer with going up , at less than a slow stroll.
Don't even mention a wrecl around the Jct of I287 and I-95..Bad News!
New Jersey roads can be ledgendary with some delays in just about any area, and add in a Hiliday and the problems are exponentially exacerbated. There is no argument that NJ roads can be problematic particularly with unbelievable traffic volumes. Mass transit would probably be a Godsend. But there was a news story this AM that said the Govenor was not going to refund the Federal Funds received for the ARC Project. They will reallocate them within the priorities of the State of New Jersey.. My guess is when the Feds get into this the Gov is probably whistling past the graveyard.
ARC has been given another chance:
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010/10/hudson_river_tunnel_project_ma.html
In two weeks, we'll know once and for all the final decision on THE Tunnel and ARC.
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One thing about political public works projects
they are never over until they are over and they are never over.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Personally, I was not a fan of the plan. While additional tunnels under the Hudson are very much needed, and in fact a bit of a no-brainer to me... the decisions made in planning this one out seemed to be made in a vacuum. Why build a stub end system that doesn't even attach to the present system?
I am disgusted by the idea of just moving the money over to highway funds. It's frankly bordering on negligence in his role as Governor.
I believe, no matter what your political affiliation is, that you have to see this move as nothing more than a chance to show off at the next convention. It's his bridge to nowhere.
Yeah, the idea that Christie was saying he would take the money out of hand and repave the roads was a major concern for me. That plus no mention of replacing or asking for another tunnel plan. Christie has been the darling of the the Tea Party Movement in many ways. Lets hope this will show that shooting from the hip with an empty gun does not solve any problems but actually can make things worse. It's OK to criticize but if you don't have an alternative plan, or your statements show you do not understand the problem or the solutions, then it is better to drink water.
ALL THOSE NJ AND PENN COMUTERS DO HELP NYC. THEY PAY STATE AND CITY INCOME TAX TO NY ON THEIR WAGES. THE TUNNEL SHOULD HAVE GONE TO PENN STATION, THEY SAY IT WOULD HAVE BEEN 3 BILLION LESS.
JUST ON CBS NEWS 11 PM ----NJ GOVERNOR AND TRANS SECRETARY LAHOODE MEET---TUNNEL MAY BE BUILT
STEVEL JUST ON CBS NEWS 11 PM ----NJ GOVERNOR AND TRANS SECRETARY LAHOODE MEET---TUNNEL MAY BE BUILT
I hope you are right, but I somehow doubt it. The NJ Governor has national aspirations and is willing to sacrifice the good and the future for his state for the good and the future of Chris Christie.
Is there a map anywhere showing where this proposed tunnel is going?
Modeling the "Fargo Area Rapid Transit" in O scale 3 rail.
Boyd Is there a map anywhere showing where this proposed tunnel is going?
http://www.arctunnel.com/gallery/
Second to last item.
Of course NJ commuters "help" NYC and NYS by paying taxes...so what. They live in NJ and have to get to and from work. You can't build anymore roads, put more pollutants into the air, or just leave the status quo to handle more than it already is handling. I keep hearing this mantra, but the truth is that NJ isn't going to all of a sudden have all the jobs that NYC has so that no one will have to go to NYC to work. Let's be real. From the 1840's NJ evolved into a Bedroom State for both NYC and Philadelphia with some manufacturing and agriclulture and ancilliary retail trade for its inhabitants. Those (these) inhabitants have jobs in the across the waters/in other state cities. It is too late to reverse over 150 years of development.
Eisenhower did a smart thing with the Highway Trust back in the 50's, never to be duplicated in any serious form since. There was a PA Governor (Milton?) back in the 70's who proposed a Railroad Trust for his state to meet the demands of the future...he was all but laughed away as was his idea. But it certainly makes more sense to plan for the present and the future instead of patching yesterday's tar and concrete!
I had much experience with major construction contracts back in my pre-retirement days. You folks in NJ actually should be thankful the current governor is raising some deep concerns about the cost of this right now. Based upon (1) what I saw happen with major government construction contracts, (2) the long time to finish the project [seems too long to me but I don't know all the particulars], and (3) I assume Obama is requiring only union labor on the project like the other stimulus projects, I suspect the 14 Billion price tag is probably the most realistic and might even be too low. If the Feds agree to fund the rest of the project above what NJ has committed, then that's a different story for the NJ taxpayers.
The estimated 40,000 jobs created sounds to me to be political "bull". Again, I had experience with similar estimates being used to justify construction paid for by various levels of government and no one involved with the projects took any of the announced estimates seriously.
Don't you think that all those commuters would get a good paying job in NJ and avoid the commute if they could? The fact is that northern NJ is populated primarily by people who work in Manhattan and Philadelphia but don't want to live there. You can help them improve their commute, or you can chase them away to other areas where the commute is easier. Pick one.
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