Lousy engineer?

[ChuckCobleigh]

Concur with a lot of the comments; the skill, "touch" and experience required for good train handling cannot be overestimated.

Back to Mookie's original comments, a little bit of physics can explain some of it, which is that more massive bodies (in this case, loaded cars) tend to change speed more slowly under braking or being pushed or pulled. Thus the mixed manifest train with some empty and some loaded cars will probably bunch or stretch unevenly no matter what the AB application strategy. Empties are great sounding boards for impacts so this would probably raise a big racket and (incidentally) they would be the most likely to stretch or compress.

It all seems so simple in a simulator, especially a shrink-wrap program you buy at CompUSA or Fry's, but you've got to remember that the geeks that wrote the application spent 80 percent of their time working on the graphics and user interface, 18 percent of the time explaining to their bosses why they were behind schedule on the project and maybe two percent of the time considering things such as the dynamics of dragging a train from point A to point B. And you can bet that they probably had very little input from true "domain experts" (i.e., actual railroad engineers) to take them through the nuances of the art.

Just because you can take your little USB yoke and rudder get-up and fly a 747 in a MS Flight Simulator program, don't think for a moment that I would ride even in the jump seat if you tried it for real. (If you've ever been in the cockpit of a modern jet transport, you will know exactly what I mean.) I think that applies equally to jumping into the cab of an SD-70 or any other locomotive after playing a simulation game.

Of course, that's just my opinion; I could be wrong. (Sorry, I had to steal the line from Dennis Miller for this one.)

[Anonymous]

FJ&G

You my friend are the reasons railroads don't like to hire foamers. You haven't even worked one day but you already know it all. Good luck trying to get your head out of your *** and into the cab

[Anonymous]

This is funny (I think) Teaching PASSENGER and freight engineers which I did most of my 53 years on the railroad .I used the term proud professional locomotive engineer or a subway motorman it is your choice. There is a great diffrence. I made a joke in the class that the NYC transit authority had a nut house near the car barn that would let out the inmates out at 0400 to run the subways all day I used to work for the MTA and i saw first hand how a motorman handled a train WHEW!! hang on. OH I met a lot of good motormen that tried to do what they were told BUT schedule first train handling second this is bull s---? One other comment I made in classes was the monkey thoery. I would say to the class that a monkey will do as its told but he dosn't have the finess on train handling. He just 8 th notched it and on the AEM7s 10 th notch and tears out knuckels and drawheads period, same with braking. He, the monkey just put the brakes in emergency ,slid the wheels as the declostats applied and realeasd the brakes causing excessice slack action. When the classes are over and I ride with you and I hand you a banana....you have problems...Great problems!! It is alot of fun for me to take a banana on a small railroad that I work for in southern Texas and ride with a certain engineer and after an hour or so I hand him the banana and he goes nuts. Thank GOD he is back on the ground as a yardmaster. He is a great friendly guy but it is true some CANNOT RUN TRAINS this is a fact. My years as a RFofE I can proove it.
Most problems with engineers is lack of training and bad habits you learn from someone else. I learned when I was an engineer a lot of things that could be called bad habit like POWER BRAKING WOW AM I GOING TO HEAR ABOUT THIS?? In the 70's on Amtrak try to teach the engineers on how to use the blended brake on the F40's or GE P30's where the independent would apply with the dynamic brake running some engineers refused to use it and I had to go to managment and insist that it be used. We all have been told not to use the independent when the DB was on so you had to teach old dogs new tricks.
Hogger

[Anonymous]

OH,
I forgot to tell you .When I hear Conductors or Trainmasters complaining about the proud professional locomotive engineer I tell them one thing ENGINEERS ARE LIKE GRAPE NUTS FLAKES.........JUST A LITTLR BIT BETTER. I wish I could print some of the comments I got.
Hogger

[wabash1]

You guys are wrong for flaming FJG look at what he said. dont get so defensive he just made a point and its mostly true. or let me break it down for you.

1st off he said I dont think you need as much skill to be a engineer as you once did when there was steam locomotives and firemen. This statement is true I dont haft to tell someone to put more coal on the fire, blow my whistle every time i want to do something or have something done ( i just blow the horn now) I dont haft to Know where all the water towers are aand be prepared to take on water. On the running part of it ive always got one hand free so i can eat my ham sandwhiches . back in the good ole days I got my trainorders and left didnt have the noise of the radio a dispatcher sitting me in the hole for hours waiting on a meet that i could have had 50 miles on down the road. For that matter train meets was more fun when the first class train was early and you was late. ( can you say headlight meet).and we drank the good stuff on duty .

2ND as a conductor you dont have to be resposible for 5 men anymore. just 1 or 2 ( depending on if you like your engineer remeber this works the other way also ) you dont get your choice of seats. you are now required to ride the lead unit. back in the day they didnt care where they stuck the dynomite so if it was by the engine i was on the caboose. they make the engineer stop the train now so you can get on and off. and you dont need 2 grips to carry all your railroad stuff ( rule books timetables etc) you still carry 2 grips just one of them has your personal items in it. ( clothes ,toiletries , inflatable doll) instead of 3.

3RD is you dont even haft to drive straight anymore the rails keep you going. Now i haft to admit i didnt know you drive a steam engine. the steering wheel must be big. maybe this is why they put mirrors on the conductors side. so you can check your blind spot. ( next engine i get im shopping it til i get west coast mirror on it and 2 cb antenas also) but today we have rails so i dont need to steer as much just put on the cruise control and go. and the thing about rails all this time i thought it was to keep me off the ground out of the dirt so my hub caps stayed clean. Imagine that rails keep me going. ( i thought exlax did that) and the last thing he said was you haft to be pretty stupid to be a bad engineer. This is the most accurate statement he has made so far. Really now If i am going 60 mph down the road and the rails curve to the left ( lets say i am in a bad mood) and the conductor wont stop looking in the mirror and we enter this curve and i decide i am going to go to the right and steer that way go between 2 big oak trees knock the mirrors off the engine and run thru someones house and then flip over. Yes that is a pretty bad engineer or if you come up to a siding and another train is waiting there and you have a head on due to not steering to the right to take the siding thats a bad engineer.

Just remeber these are his opinions and opinions are like a-holes everybody has one just some are stretched out and used more than others.

[edblysard]

There you go with the mirror thing, again.
Just because you cant use both to check your hair, you gotta go knocking the conductors mirror off.

Ed

[zardoz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wabash1

You guys are wrong for flaming FJG look at what he said. dont get so defensive he just made a point and its mostly true. or let me break it down for you.

I thought I did that already. But that's just my opinion. [;)]

[wabash1]

would you exspect any less from me ED. Oh and i make sure you didnt have your head out the window looking at yourself when i wack the mirror off. safety first. as the ns says there is no job so important no job so urgent that we can not take the time to knock the mirrors off safley.

[Mookie]

You guys have had so much fun with the mirrors - wait until I ask about sun visors!

[jjlamkin]

I noticed on our 2000 + mile Amtrak round trip from Illinois to South Florida that even the Amtrak engineers have different habits or techniques. Most of the time it felt like they were using the dynamic braking of the locomotive to stop the train, but a few times you could hear the brakes on the cars working. I know sometimes the car brakes are necessary as dynamic braking does not work below certain speeds. Just my 2c's worth!!

[Paul Milenkovic]

On the subject of "operating a locomotive is easy", intuition suggests that operating an airplane is hard, operating a truck or a car is medium-hard, and operating a train is easy because you can only move where the track takes you. What people are missing is that in a car, in addition to applying the brakes, you can swerve to avoid hitting something while in a train, you are tied to the tracks. If you run a red light in a car, you can still steer your way out of trouble, but in a train, you are going to hit something.

As for the steam locomotive era, I imagine the working conditions were worse compared to an air-conditioned Diesel with a fridge, but the modern era has ever-so-heavy trains handled by ever-so-fewer units that I imagine that train handling has got much harder.

As to learning to handle a 747 jet from Microsoft Flight Simulator, my experience is that piloting a light plane for real is much easier than the simulator -- it took me about 14 hours of training in a real airplane before I was able to land the simulator without "crashing." While a 747 has handling problems akin to train handling -- not blowing stuff over with your jet exhaust, figuring out how to taxi when you are sitting way up high, once you are off the ground, I am told by flight instructors that a jet is much easier to fly than a light plane -- the light plane is tossed around by every air current and has a very delayed response to the controls -- it is hard to not overcontrol, and the experience of not having very much direct control over where you are going is much like taking the helm of a small motorboat. I am told that a jet is very responsive to the controls, that it goes where you point it much like your car.

[Mookie]

Got to ride on a real locomotive engine this weekend and first thing engineer said after introductions - "Engineering is a lot of 'seat-of'-the-pants' work." Now where have I heard that before? And it is so true! He worked his engine, held a conversation with two of us and worked his radio. And the ride was so smooth!

Mookie

[wabash1]

mookie

It was so smooth but yet you saw him feather that independant like he was trying to rip it off the console. and how about the take offs it was a work of art you heard all the noise but felt nothing . but in that seat and knowing what you was feeling for you would say really smooth. or just a litttle bumpy . I am glad you got a chance to see 1st hand what we are talking about on a regular basis. Now if the opertunity arises ride about 75 miles of track at track speed and we can show you smooth. remeber when you go over a hill the train will follow and if the heavy cars are on the rear they will play catch up. that is why we lose a little speed at first so we can run away from them later when they come over the hill and chase us.with out speeding. its little things you dont see and the things we do make it look so easy and it isnt.

[Mookie]

Wabash - that is really hill country - so he was constantly adjusting the brakes - I have seen roller coasters that didn't have that many hills. Granted we weren't going very fast, but his hand was moving constantly. The only thing really noticeable was when we went from jointed track to welded rail. He had to tell me what to "feel" or I probably wouldn't have noticed it. I was too busy being awed!

I am just so impressed I can hardly stand it!

Mook

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie

Got to ride on a real locomotive engine this weekend and first thing engineer said after introductions - "Engineering is a lot of 'seat-of'-the-pants' work." Now where have I heard that before? And it is so true! He worked his engine, held a conversation with two of us and worked his radio. And the ride was so smooth!

Mookie

As I have said before...the engineer's most important sensory organ is his butt in the seat...

LC

[Mookie]

Made a believer out of me!

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie

Got to ride on a real locomotive engine this weekend and first thing engineer said after introductions - "Engineering is a lot of 'seat-of'-the-pants' work." Now where have I heard that before? And it is so true! He worked his engine, held a conversation with two of us and worked his radio. And the ride was so smooth!

Mookie

As I have said before...the engineer's most important sensory organ is his butt in the seat...

LC

the butt is a good one..but you cant count out the ears....many a time i have heard a wheel slip on wet rail starting to happen befor any wheel slip lights come on... .. you hear the traction motors start to scream louder then they should..... when i hear it..i take a notch off..and dump sand... keep from getting the train snaping jurck that can happen when you lose traction..and suddely get it back...
its all skill..... we make it look easy....lol
csx engineer

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by csxengineer98

its all skill..... we make it look easy....lol
csx engineer

csx - You're too modest...[;)]

[Anonymous]

I just want to say I know a story beyond the decorum of this page that involves the death of a woman who tried to have sex with a donkey because she saw a "proffessional" do it but was not aware of the precautions taken because they were not readily apparent to the eye.

I also want to say that though I am not a locomotive engineer, in my own experience, the greatest danger lies in the familiar. It is easy to become lax when you are doing something for the umpteenth time. It is good from time to time to break the rythm, and take a look around.

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jruppert

I just want to say I know a story beyond the decorum of this page that involves the death of a woman who tried to have sex with a donkey because she saw a "proffessional" do it but was not aware of the precautions taken because they were not readily apparent to the eye.

I also want to say that though I am not a locomotive engineer, in my own experience, the greatest danger lies in the familiar. It is easy to become lax when you are doing something for the umpteenth time. It is good from time to time to break the rythm, and take a look around.

im not even going to comment on the beastialy story... lol
but complaceancy is a big danger in any job...that much is so true... but also on the other hand... when do something so many times time and time agin..... you start to act on reflex... you dont think so much as it becomes reactionare.... like when im running... the thought goes into knowing where what is ...like a slow order... or coming in to a possable red block on an approch signal...where the next signal is...but the reflex that comes from the thought is.... i start to slow down or prepair to stop ...i just do it... with the tools i have avalible to do it with... when your skilled at something... doing it just happens.... its almost like a sculper and a block of stone...for someone that has never carved anything..it would take alot of thought ..but if you ever saw a someone that is skilled....they just seem to know what to do..and when and how...
csx engineer

[ValleyX]

Becoming complacent can happen and that's probably what is wrong with many people driving on the road today. It happens on the railroad, too, but when you do the same thing over and over, you realize that each train is different, each train handles a little differently, and you sometimes get a train or a set of power that throws you for a loop, and you find yourself going to plan B, C, or D.

[Mookie]

Good point - the drivers cross that same crossing everyday and nothing happens. Then one day......

The railroad workers do the same job each day, but in reality it is ever-changing.

My thoughts only.....

[Anonymous]

When I was in the navy, every once in a while we would have a "safety standown", and spend a day reviewing basic procedures and precautions. Does the railroads do anything like this?

[edblysard]

Cant speak for other railroads, but where I work, the PTRA, at the begining of every shift, all crews are required to attend a safety breifing, where we are issued our locomotives, work orders and switch list, train sheets, track warrants, stuff like that.
The on duty yardmaster and trainmaster are required to be present and participate, and the trainmaster is required to read the operational rule of the day from the GCOR, and the safety rule of the day from our timetable's safety rule section.
Any part of the two that isnt clear is discussed.

After the safety briefing, each crew spends time reviewing their paperwork, and deciding who will perform what function, and how the work will be performed, who does what, when and where they will be.

If, in the course of the day, things change, which happens quite often, the crew will review and discuss any changes to this plan.

Ed

[Anonymous]

Sounds very much lick a typical morning in the navy

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jruppert

Sounds very much lick a typical morning in the navy

Glad when I was in the Navy we didn't have safety drills involving licking...lol...

We did practice licking salt from margarita glasses in Coronado. Hotel Coronado bar was a great place in those days...

LC

[Mookie]

Gotta go shut my door before they get the nets...............again....

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear

QUOTE: Originally posted by jruppert

Sounds very much lick a typical morning in the navy

Glad when I was in the Navy we didn't have safety drills involving licking...lol...

We did practice licking salt from margarita glasses in Coronado. Hotel Coronado bar was a great place in those days...

LC

Quarter masters use the hotel's spire as a guide when entering SD's channel, they use the clock tower on the base to mark the turn south.