zugmann Let's say I'm on a train doing 60mph at night. You really think we can stop for something we can see in the headlights? Sorry, not going to happen. That is why signals were invented many years ago - to permit operations faster than "line of sight". And yes it is a case of "too bad". If you become a blood stain on the plow of a locomotive? too bad,and it sucks to be you! I won't lose a minute of sleep over it. Funny you mention snow. A lot of places you are going to have a hard time clearing a drift off the rails if you are moving at 2mph. You can NOT run a viable railroad if you are 100% restricted speed. PERIOD. END OF ARGUMENT.
Let's say I'm on a train doing 60mph at night. You really think we can stop for something we can see in the headlights? Sorry, not going to happen. That is why signals were invented many years ago - to permit operations faster than "line of sight".
And yes it is a case of "too bad". If you become a blood stain on the plow of a locomotive? too bad,and it sucks to be you! I won't lose a minute of sleep over it. Funny you mention snow. A lot of places you are going to have a hard time clearing a drift off the rails if you are moving at 2mph.
You can NOT run a viable railroad if you are 100% restricted speed. PERIOD. END OF ARGUMENT.
I'd like to see how someone is going to stop a deer from jumping over the tracks at night. OOPS---EX-deer....
100% restricted speed-----isn't this kind of a little drastic? How are you going to have HSR with 100% restricted speed?
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
schlimm zugmannHonestly, I think we beaten this to death. You just don't like the answers. No, it isn't a matter of Bucyrus, henry or myself not "liking" the answers, the problem is that many of the "answers" violate any common sense. I sort of wonder if this is regarded as a joke? Running a train blind at 40 to 60 mph is dangerous regardless of whether or not it is on "your own property." It isn't a case of "too bad" if a trespassing truck or person is on the track; there could be other obstacles that could cause a derailment. Recall the trees down in the Pennsylvania snow storm? I suppose it is exercising prudence to speed up so you can blast it off the tracks for fun?
zugmannHonestly, I think we beaten this to death. You just don't like the answers.
No, it isn't a matter of Bucyrus, henry or myself not "liking" the answers, the problem is that many of the "answers" violate any common sense. I sort of wonder if this is regarded as a joke? Running a train blind at 40 to 60 mph is dangerous regardless of whether or not it is on "your own property." It isn't a case of "too bad" if a trespassing truck or person is on the track; there could be other obstacles that could cause a derailment. Recall the trees down in the Pennsylvania snow storm? I suppose it is exercising prudence to speed up so you can blast it off the tracks for fun?
Trees don't require snow storms to fall into railroad rights of way....they do it on clear summer days from time to time and get hit with regularity...no matter the ambient visibility, except when trains are operating at Restricted Speed....if a train strikes an obstruction such as a tree when operating at Restricted Speed then they are speeding and will have to 'tell it to the man'.
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=314639
View the above picture. If the bridge were catastrophically damaged, but either the signals indicated Clear, or the train held Clear DTC or TWC authority...would you expect the sight lines available to permit stopping for the damaged bridge when operating at any speed higher than Restricted Speed in even the clearest weather. Rail stopping distances do not permit sight reliant operation at ANY speed higher than Restricted Speed.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Comprehending operation of heavy equipment is BS on your part. We have fog, FRA, and foamers here is parsing words and thoughts based on seeking an absolute. But there is only one absolute. Let's clear through the first two rules of railroading. One: expect a train on any track at any time in any direction. Two: when in doubt the safest course must be chosen. Therefore, no matter what the FRA law is, how macho Wabash and Zug are, no matter how many signals there are, or anything else, it is up to the engineer to operate his train in the safest manner possible no matter what the situation. So lets not beat on this any further. If one wants to run his train at 100 mph through a fog, let him. If one wants to know what a good engineer willl do, look at the rules of safety.
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henry6Comprehending operation of heavy equipment is BS on your part. We have fog, FRA, and foamers here is parsing words and thoughts based on seeking an absolute. But there is only one absolute. Let's clear through the first two rules of railroading. One: expect a train on any track at any time in any direction. Two: when in doubt the safest course must be chosen. Therefore, no matter what the FRA law is, how macho Wabash and Zug are, no matter how many signals there are, or anything else, it is up to the engineer to operate his train in the safest manner possible no matter what the situation. So lets not beat on this any further. If one wants to run his train at 100 mph through a fog, let him. If one wants to know what a good engineer willl do, look at the rules of safety.
I don't get your macho dig, though. It's not about being macho. It's about doing what we are paid to do.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
jeffhergert General Code of Operating Rules Rule 6.21 Precaustions against unusual conditions http://www.railroadcontrols.com/gcor/movement.html#6.21 (The link is to an older version of GCOR, but the rule is still there in current versions.) The applicable part of that rule to this discussion is: "When conditions restrict visibility, regulate speed to ensure that crew members can observe and comply with signal indications." Open to interpretation, just as is the answer from the FRA. I am beginning to understand why some railroaders (current and former) have left or cut back their participation in the forums. Jeff
General Code of Operating Rules
Rule 6.21 Precaustions against unusual conditions
http://www.railroadcontrols.com/gcor/movement.html#6.21 (The link is to an older version of GCOR, but the rule is still there in current versions.)
The applicable part of that rule to this discussion is: "When conditions restrict visibility, regulate speed to ensure that crew members can observe and comply with signal indications."
Open to interpretation, just as is the answer from the FRA.
I am beginning to understand why some railroaders (current and former) have left or cut back their participation in the forums.
Jeff
I somehow missed this entirely. Here is where things get hairy. Note the phrasing that is bolded out. Open to interpretation. Things can go AWOL even on dead straight track on a sunny day. Would they have to go crawling around at walking speed all the time?
Jeff: I can very well see why some have cut back or left.
Maybe we should make the conductor walk in front of the train ringing a cowbell.
Keep everyone safe.
ring ring ring ring ring ring ring ding ding ding ding.......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UzGykwlGlk
zugmann Maybe we should make the conductor walk in front of the train ringing a cowbell.
Ah nuts, someone'd be kvetching about the noise----grrr
You think maybe a sea grade flare gun mounted at the front might help?
blownout cylinderzugmann Maybe we should make the conductor walk in front of the train ringing a cowbell. Ah nuts, someone'd be kvetching about the noise----grrr You think maybe a sea grade flare gun mounted at the front might help?
See this way, if there is a danger, then all the conductor would need is MORE COWBELL!
sorry. that was bad. sorry.
PS. I don't think I'm allowed to have a flare gun. I've been known to set road-side brush on fire just by tossing fusees by hand. Much to the engineer's amusement.
zugmann blownout cylinder zugmann Maybe we should make the conductor walk in front of the train ringing a cowbell. Ah nuts, someone'd be kvetching about the noise----grrr You think maybe a sea grade flare gun mounted at the front might help? See this way, if there is a danger, then all the conductor would need is MORE COWBELL! sorry. that was bad. sorry. PS. I don't think I'm allowed to have a flare gun. I've been known to set road-side brush on fire just by tossing fusees by hand. Much to the engineer's amusement.
blownout cylinder zugmann Maybe we should make the conductor walk in front of the train ringing a cowbell. Ah nuts, someone'd be kvetching about the noise----grrr You think maybe a sea grade flare gun mounted at the front might help?
Besides if you toss a fusee towards a phoamer they will spontaneously explode......
In the past, there have been uproars over the moderation style advnced towards threads like this. Once everyone gets done knocking heads over something inconsequential like fog, then these types threads tend to turn into name-calling and pot-shot type threads. Then, they tuen ugly and go over the edge with gusto. That being said, please contunue the conversation at hand. But, what say we cut out the name-calling, the snarky, baiting remarks, and pot-shots, and just try to be civil with one another? Besides, it's late, and I have to work in the morning.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
henry6 So lets not beat on this any further. If one wants to run his train at 100 mph through a fog, let him. If one wants to know what a good engineer willl do, look at the rules of safety.
So lets not beat on this any further. If one wants to run his train at 100 mph through a fog, let him. If one wants to know what a good engineer willl do, look at the rules of safety.
OK, Henry (and anyone else who cares to answer) you are now an engineer. The conditions are night time and foggy. Visibility is bad but at your maximum authorized speed (let's be realistic, 50 to 70mph range) you can see when you come upon them all wayside signs (MP, whistle posts, temp speed signs,etc) and wayside block/interlocking signals. You may not see them for too long, but you can and do see them. You are operating on clear signals, that is you aren't required to operate at a speed that requires you to stop within half the range of vision or at the next signal.
As stated you can see the whistle posts so you know when crossings are coming up, but (if it's there) you can't see Hays' high centered tank (Texaco?) truck from the whistle post location. So, Mr. Good Hogger how fast do you go? Maximum authorized speed? 30mph? 20mph? 10mph?
jeffhergert henry6 So lets not beat on this any further. If one wants to run his train at 100 mph through a fog, let him. If one wants to know what a good engineer willl do, look at the rules of safety. OK, Henry (and anyone else who cares to answer) you are now an engineer. The conditions are night time and foggy. Visibility is bad but at your maximum authorized speed (let's be realistic, 50 to 70mph range) you can see when you come upon them all wayside signs (MP, whistle posts, temp speed signs,etc) and wayside block/interlocking signals. You may not see them for too long, but you can and do see them. You are operating on clear signals, that is you aren't required to operate at a speed that requires you to stop within half the range of vision or at the next signal. As stated you can see the whistle posts so you know when crossings are coming up, but (if it's there) you can't see Hays' high centered tank (Texaco?) truck from the whistle post location. So, Mr. Good Hogger how fast do you go? Maximum authorized speed? 30mph? 20mph? 10mph? Jeff
Maximum authorized speed.
This rule speaks of visibility problems, saying that crews must regulate speed so signals can be complied with. It does not directly address visibility problems where no signals exist. Would switch targets and fixed wayside signs count as signals? They are items that must be seen in order to pass them; correct me if I'm wrong.
I would judge that zero-visibility fog would qualify for what is set forth in the first sentence.
The second sentence ties speed with visibility.
The third sentence refers to unusual weather events, but does not directly mention fog.
Protect trains and engines against any known condition that may interfere with their safety.
In unusually heavy rain, storm, or high water, trains and engines must approach bridges, culverts, and other potentially hazardous points prepared to stop. If they cannot proceed safely, they must stop until it is safe to resume movement.
Bucyrus 6.21 Precautions Against Unusual Conditions Protect trains and engines against any known condition that may interfere with their safety. When conditions restrict visibility, regulate speed to ensure that crew members can observe and comply with signal indications. In unusually heavy rain, storm, or high water, trains and engines must approach bridges, culverts, and other potentially hazardous points prepared to stop. If they cannot proceed safely, they must stop until it is safe to resume movement.
I see that semantics comes into play here. How does one judge?
I'm going to be more likely to go 40mph. I've seen deer jump out in front of my car in fog and get nailed--well, actually clipped--so I am somewhat prepared to stop. Now, on a train I'd be looking at maybe the same or a little lower, say, 30mph--but not 10mph!
There is no perfect answer to this one. All it says is to regulate speed and that is where interpretation comes into play.
zugmannSee this way, if there is a danger, then all the conductor would need is MORE COWBELL!
Are you my Trainmaster or just a foamer posing a question for the sake of arguement?
henry6 jeffhergert henry6 So lets not beat on this any further. If one wants to run his train at 100 mph through a fog, let him. If one wants to know what a good engineer willl do, look at the rules of safety. OK, Henry (and anyone else who cares to answer) you are now an engineer. The conditions are night time and foggy. Visibility is bad but at your maximum authorized speed (let's be realistic, 50 to 70mph range) you can see when you come upon them all wayside signs (MP, whistle posts, temp speed signs,etc) and wayside block/interlocking signals. You may not see them for too long, but you can and do see them. You are operating on clear signals, that is you aren't required to operate at a speed that requires you to stop within half the range of vision or at the next signal. As stated you can see the whistle posts so you know when crossings are coming up, but (if it's there) you can't see Hays' high centered tank (Texaco?) truck from the whistle post location. So, Mr. Good Hogger how fast do you go? Maximum authorized speed? 30mph? 20mph? 10mph? Jeff Are you my Trainmaster or just a foamer posing a question for the sake of arguement?
Murphy Siding henry6 jeffhergert henry6 So lets not beat on this any further. If one wants to run his train at 100 mph through a fog, let him. If one wants to know what a good engineer willl do, look at the rules of safety. OK, Henry (and anyone else who cares to answer) you are now an engineer. The conditions are night time and foggy. Visibility is bad but at your maximum authorized speed (let's be realistic, 50 to 70mph range) you can see when you come upon them all wayside signs (MP, whistle posts, temp speed signs,etc) and wayside block/interlocking signals. You may not see them for too long, but you can and do see them. You are operating on clear signals, that is you aren't required to operate at a speed that requires you to stop within half the range of vision or at the next signal. As stated you can see the whistle posts so you know when crossings are coming up, but (if it's there) you can't see Hays' high centered tank (Texaco?) truck from the whistle post location. So, Mr. Good Hogger how fast do you go? Maximum authorized speed? 30mph? 20mph? 10mph? Jeff Are you my Trainmaster or just a foamer posing a question for the sake of arguement? Neither. He's a railroad engineer in Iowa,perhaps trying to get the point accross, that maybe those of us that aren't engineers might not understand every single facet of his job and his experience.
And that's my point too. So my real answer(s) would be: if you're the Trainmaster, then I will use all safety and caution to get my train to terminal as close to on time as possible without endangering the lives of passengers, crewmembers, or others around or near the railroad, nor causing damage to freight nor to the railroad's equipment or property; if you're a foamer, then I'd run the wheels off the damned train and have the thrill of my life(?)!
Apparently when driving a train, one automatically enters Bizarro World, where everything is reversed. Anything goes and it's OK.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
schlimm Apparently when driving a train, one automatically enters Bizarro World, where everything is reversed. Anything goes and it's OK.
and so you have it. this iswhy we cant get these guys to understand engineers and train operations, its so simple Mrs. Mookie can tell you the answer. I will make the statement and if you need clairifacation ask her she will tell you. WE DONT DRIVE TRAINS.
SIS come run for me I need a good relief engineer
schlimmApparently when driving a train, one automatically enters Bizarro World, where everything is reversed. Anything goes and it's OK.
Yeah, let's not believe the people that do this for a living. They must not know what they are doing.
Luckily we have internet railfans to the rescue to tell us how to do our jobs!
*sound the trumpets*
I'm with Wabash, never drove a train in my life but run a whole lot of them. I might add that its comments like the above by the self-perceived real experts, that leads me not to visit here as often as I used to.
zugmann*sound the trumpets*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERNdH-0OcXc
Zugmann I stand corrected I thought all rail roaders was macho. I shave 2 times a day with a weed eater. I dont drink coffee i open up the can and eat the grounds why wait for hot water this is simpler,
Ok fir those who want a fight on how to run in the dark and fog snow or rain blinding sunshine or what ever the case here is you answers,
1) you say you called the fra and if you got thru and talked to someone lucky you, but at the same time 5 differant officiers will give you 5 differant answer, so your answer is what ever you want it to be, also if you paid attention to who you talk to ( and if you told them you was a railroader) the very next thing they say is we are not your employer so dont get fired for insabordination. ( spelled wrong i know) yes we will fine the employee but you still will have a job.
2) ive ran track speed in fog that if you was lucky enough to see 2 ft in front of the engine was luck. but out the side window i could see 4-5 feet and yes you could black out the windshield and most engineers could operate at track speed just looking out the side window. and are land marks we look for are 2-15 foot from the rail not out in some field
3) you keep bringing signals in then jumping back to dark territory either one works no differant to me same rule applies. when running and signals are clear 8 and sand. then i come upon a yellow i dont even start to slow until i passed it, and then i do according to rules and since i know my territory i know if the next signal is a positive or not, if not restrictive speed will be maintained and yes if its that foggy the conductor will get down and walk it, been more than 1 banner found that way.
in dark territory the only thing to slow me other than track authority is a fussee. and the rule that apply to them.
Now if you want to keep screwing with operations and bickering fine twist things anyway you want , fight or what ever as i am not going to be a part of it.
hey valley long time no see. hope things been going fine for you. csx has not been around either,
wabash1 Zugmann I stand corrected I thought all rail roaders was macho. I shave 2 times a day with a weed eater. I dont drink coffee i open up the can and eat the grounds why wait for hot water this is simpler, Ok fir those who want a fight on how to run in the dark and fog snow or rain blinding sunshine or what ever the case here is you answers, 1) you say you called the fra and if you got thru and talked to someone lucky you, but at the same time 5 differant officiers will give you 5 differant answer, so your answer is what ever you want it to be, also if you paid attention to who you talk to ( and if you told them you was a railroader) the very next thing they say is we are not your employer so dont get fired for insabordination. ( spelled wrong i know) yes we will fine the employee but you still will have a job. 2) ive ran track speed in fog that if you was lucky enough to see 2 ft in front of the engine was luck. but out the side window i could see 4-5 feet and yes you could black out the windshield and most engineers could operate at track speed just looking out the side window. and are land marks we look for are 2-15 foot from the rail not out in some field 3) you keep bringing signals in then jumping back to dark territory either one works no differant to me same rule applies. when running and signals are clear 8 and sand. then i come upon a yellow i dont even start to slow until i passed it, and then i do according to rules and since i know my territory i know if the next signal is a positive or not, if not restrictive speed will be maintained and yes if its that foggy the conductor will get down and walk it, been more than 1 banner found that way. in dark territory the only thing to slow me other than track authority is a fussee. and the rule that apply to them. Now if you want to keep screwing with operations and bickering fine twist things anyway you want , fight or what ever as i am not going to be a part of it.
OK. Just please tell me what railroad and where you run. In case I get out that way I neither want to ride on your railroad nor be anywhere close to it in bad weather lest you'd be running that day.
henry6 OK. Just please tell me what railroad and where you run. In case I get out that way I neither want to ride on your railroad nor be anywhere close to it in bad weather lest you'd be running that day.
Well Henry, you better move away from ALL mainline tracks. Because that is how we all operate. We don't slow to a crawl because of a little fog or rain (or that pesky little thing called darkness that seems to occur every night for some reason). We have freight to move.
zugmann henry6 OK. Just please tell me what railroad and where you run. In case I get out that way I neither want to ride on your railroad nor be anywhere close to it in bad weather lest you'd be running that day. Well Henry, you better move away from ALL mainline tracks. Because that is how we all operate. We don't slow to a crawl because of a little fog or rain (or that pesky little thing called darkness that seems to occur every night for some reason). We have freight to move.
Zuggy, Balt: I know enough engineers and ridden enough trains in my 67 years to know bluster when I see it and hear it. It all engineers were as you say you are, and all railroads allowed such behavior, we'd be in a sorrier mess than we are.
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