I know this will upset some.....but this thread has pretty much run it's course. From here on out, it's heading towards ugly. I'm going to lock it now, so we can all move on.-Norris user/moderator
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
zugmann Because that is how we all operate. We don't slow to a crawl because of a little fog or rain (or that pesky little thing called darkness that seems to occur every night for some reason).
No one suggested slowing to a crawl because of "a little fog or rain or darkness." If that is an example of your reading accuracy, maybe you ought to read the rulebook again.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
samfp1943 I guess the important lesseon to be taken away from this exercise is the wisdom of the NS's (nee N&W/Southern) policy of running long hood forward. Note to Wabash1: Is the rule there lid up or down? Around here it is now lid up, always; since the night the kids put the cat in the toilet, and left the lid down. You've never heard a scream like the one the wife uttered at 2AM when that wet cat went between her legs as she was about to do what she needed to do! One more question: Regular or double stuff?
I guess the important lesseon to be taken away from this exercise is the wisdom of the NS's (nee N&W/Southern) policy of running long hood forward.
Note to Wabash1: Is the rule there lid up or down? Around here it is now lid up, always; since the night the kids put the cat in the toilet, and left the lid down. You've never heard a scream like the one the wife uttered at 2AM when that wet cat went between her legs as she was about to do what she needed to do!
One more question: Regular or double stuff?
Wabash1:
"...Now in kitchen step step step reach into cabinit get glass turn around open refrigerator door get milk out pour glass of milk put jug back. step step step stop at table sit down glass and go over to stove turn on oven light, walk back over to table sit down. open up oreo package get a cookie out dunk dunk dunk eat. ahh get another cookie dunk dunk dunk dunk eat mmmmm get another cookie out dunk dunk dunk. eat reach for another. ( i realy should stop bad for diet) dunk dunk dunk. eat, mmmmm , Just one more dunk dunk dunk eat ahhh good but i really should stop reach dunk dunk dunk dunk eat why cant a person stop at 1 or 2, im gonna hate myself and my waist line. reach search search, package empty. gulp gulp gulp refreshing. put glass in sink rinsing out first..."
Wabash, still wondering. Do you dunk Regular or Double Stuff?
Zuggy, Balt: I know enough engineers and ridden enough trains in my 67 years to know bluster when I see it and hear it. It all engineers were as you say you are, and all railroads allowed such behavior, we'd be in a sorrier mess than we are.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
zugmann henry6 OK. Just please tell me what railroad and where you run. In case I get out that way I neither want to ride on your railroad nor be anywhere close to it in bad weather lest you'd be running that day. Well Henry, you better move away from ALL mainline tracks. Because that is how we all operate. We don't slow to a crawl because of a little fog or rain (or that pesky little thing called darkness that seems to occur every night for some reason). We have freight to move.
henry6 OK. Just please tell me what railroad and where you run. In case I get out that way I neither want to ride on your railroad nor be anywhere close to it in bad weather lest you'd be running that day.
OK. Just please tell me what railroad and where you run. In case I get out that way I neither want to ride on your railroad nor be anywhere close to it in bad weather lest you'd be running that day.
Well Henry, you better move away from ALL mainline tracks. Because that is how we all operate. We don't slow to a crawl because of a little fog or rain (or that pesky little thing called darkness that seems to occur every night for some reason). We have freight to move.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
wabash1 Zugmann I stand corrected I thought all rail roaders was macho. I shave 2 times a day with a weed eater. I dont drink coffee i open up the can and eat the grounds why wait for hot water this is simpler, Ok fir those who want a fight on how to run in the dark and fog snow or rain blinding sunshine or what ever the case here is you answers, 1) you say you called the fra and if you got thru and talked to someone lucky you, but at the same time 5 differant officiers will give you 5 differant answer, so your answer is what ever you want it to be, also if you paid attention to who you talk to ( and if you told them you was a railroader) the very next thing they say is we are not your employer so dont get fired for insabordination. ( spelled wrong i know) yes we will fine the employee but you still will have a job. 2) ive ran track speed in fog that if you was lucky enough to see 2 ft in front of the engine was luck. but out the side window i could see 4-5 feet and yes you could black out the windshield and most engineers could operate at track speed just looking out the side window. and are land marks we look for are 2-15 foot from the rail not out in some field 3) you keep bringing signals in then jumping back to dark territory either one works no differant to me same rule applies. when running and signals are clear 8 and sand. then i come upon a yellow i dont even start to slow until i passed it, and then i do according to rules and since i know my territory i know if the next signal is a positive or not, if not restrictive speed will be maintained and yes if its that foggy the conductor will get down and walk it, been more than 1 banner found that way. in dark territory the only thing to slow me other than track authority is a fussee. and the rule that apply to them. Now if you want to keep screwing with operations and bickering fine twist things anyway you want , fight or what ever as i am not going to be a part of it.
Zugmann I stand corrected I thought all rail roaders was macho. I shave 2 times a day with a weed eater. I dont drink coffee i open up the can and eat the grounds why wait for hot water this is simpler,
Ok fir those who want a fight on how to run in the dark and fog snow or rain blinding sunshine or what ever the case here is you answers,
1) you say you called the fra and if you got thru and talked to someone lucky you, but at the same time 5 differant officiers will give you 5 differant answer, so your answer is what ever you want it to be, also if you paid attention to who you talk to ( and if you told them you was a railroader) the very next thing they say is we are not your employer so dont get fired for insabordination. ( spelled wrong i know) yes we will fine the employee but you still will have a job.
2) ive ran track speed in fog that if you was lucky enough to see 2 ft in front of the engine was luck. but out the side window i could see 4-5 feet and yes you could black out the windshield and most engineers could operate at track speed just looking out the side window. and are land marks we look for are 2-15 foot from the rail not out in some field
3) you keep bringing signals in then jumping back to dark territory either one works no differant to me same rule applies. when running and signals are clear 8 and sand. then i come upon a yellow i dont even start to slow until i passed it, and then i do according to rules and since i know my territory i know if the next signal is a positive or not, if not restrictive speed will be maintained and yes if its that foggy the conductor will get down and walk it, been more than 1 banner found that way.
in dark territory the only thing to slow me other than track authority is a fussee. and the rule that apply to them.
Now if you want to keep screwing with operations and bickering fine twist things anyway you want , fight or what ever as i am not going to be a part of it.
hey valley long time no see. hope things been going fine for you. csx has not been around either,
zugmann*sound the trumpets*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERNdH-0OcXc
schlimmApparently when driving a train, one automatically enters Bizarro World, where everything is reversed. Anything goes and it's OK.
Apparently when driving a train, one automatically enters Bizarro World, where everything is reversed. Anything goes and it's OK.
I'm with Wabash, never drove a train in my life but run a whole lot of them. I might add that its comments like the above by the self-perceived real experts, that leads me not to visit here as often as I used to.
Yeah, let's not believe the people that do this for a living. They must not know what they are doing.
Luckily we have internet railfans to the rescue to tell us how to do our jobs!
*sound the trumpets*
schlimm Apparently when driving a train, one automatically enters Bizarro World, where everything is reversed. Anything goes and it's OK.
and so you have it. this iswhy we cant get these guys to understand engineers and train operations, its so simple Mrs. Mookie can tell you the answer. I will make the statement and if you need clairifacation ask her she will tell you. WE DONT DRIVE TRAINS.
SIS come run for me I need a good relief engineer
Murphy Siding henry6 jeffhergert henry6 So lets not beat on this any further. If one wants to run his train at 100 mph through a fog, let him. If one wants to know what a good engineer willl do, look at the rules of safety. OK, Henry (and anyone else who cares to answer) you are now an engineer. The conditions are night time and foggy. Visibility is bad but at your maximum authorized speed (let's be realistic, 50 to 70mph range) you can see when you come upon them all wayside signs (MP, whistle posts, temp speed signs,etc) and wayside block/interlocking signals. You may not see them for too long, but you can and do see them. You are operating on clear signals, that is you aren't required to operate at a speed that requires you to stop within half the range of vision or at the next signal. As stated you can see the whistle posts so you know when crossings are coming up, but (if it's there) you can't see Hays' high centered tank (Texaco?) truck from the whistle post location. So, Mr. Good Hogger how fast do you go? Maximum authorized speed? 30mph? 20mph? 10mph? Jeff Are you my Trainmaster or just a foamer posing a question for the sake of arguement? Neither. He's a railroad engineer in Iowa,perhaps trying to get the point accross, that maybe those of us that aren't engineers might not understand every single facet of his job and his experience.
henry6 jeffhergert henry6 So lets not beat on this any further. If one wants to run his train at 100 mph through a fog, let him. If one wants to know what a good engineer willl do, look at the rules of safety. OK, Henry (and anyone else who cares to answer) you are now an engineer. The conditions are night time and foggy. Visibility is bad but at your maximum authorized speed (let's be realistic, 50 to 70mph range) you can see when you come upon them all wayside signs (MP, whistle posts, temp speed signs,etc) and wayside block/interlocking signals. You may not see them for too long, but you can and do see them. You are operating on clear signals, that is you aren't required to operate at a speed that requires you to stop within half the range of vision or at the next signal. As stated you can see the whistle posts so you know when crossings are coming up, but (if it's there) you can't see Hays' high centered tank (Texaco?) truck from the whistle post location. So, Mr. Good Hogger how fast do you go? Maximum authorized speed? 30mph? 20mph? 10mph? Jeff Are you my Trainmaster or just a foamer posing a question for the sake of arguement?
jeffhergert henry6 So lets not beat on this any further. If one wants to run his train at 100 mph through a fog, let him. If one wants to know what a good engineer willl do, look at the rules of safety. OK, Henry (and anyone else who cares to answer) you are now an engineer. The conditions are night time and foggy. Visibility is bad but at your maximum authorized speed (let's be realistic, 50 to 70mph range) you can see when you come upon them all wayside signs (MP, whistle posts, temp speed signs,etc) and wayside block/interlocking signals. You may not see them for too long, but you can and do see them. You are operating on clear signals, that is you aren't required to operate at a speed that requires you to stop within half the range of vision or at the next signal. As stated you can see the whistle posts so you know when crossings are coming up, but (if it's there) you can't see Hays' high centered tank (Texaco?) truck from the whistle post location. So, Mr. Good Hogger how fast do you go? Maximum authorized speed? 30mph? 20mph? 10mph? Jeff
henry6 So lets not beat on this any further. If one wants to run his train at 100 mph through a fog, let him. If one wants to know what a good engineer willl do, look at the rules of safety.
So lets not beat on this any further. If one wants to run his train at 100 mph through a fog, let him. If one wants to know what a good engineer willl do, look at the rules of safety.
OK, Henry (and anyone else who cares to answer) you are now an engineer. The conditions are night time and foggy. Visibility is bad but at your maximum authorized speed (let's be realistic, 50 to 70mph range) you can see when you come upon them all wayside signs (MP, whistle posts, temp speed signs,etc) and wayside block/interlocking signals. You may not see them for too long, but you can and do see them. You are operating on clear signals, that is you aren't required to operate at a speed that requires you to stop within half the range of vision or at the next signal.
As stated you can see the whistle posts so you know when crossings are coming up, but (if it's there) you can't see Hays' high centered tank (Texaco?) truck from the whistle post location. So, Mr. Good Hogger how fast do you go? Maximum authorized speed? 30mph? 20mph? 10mph?
Jeff
Are you my Trainmaster or just a foamer posing a question for the sake of arguement?
And that's my point too. So my real answer(s) would be: if you're the Trainmaster, then I will use all safety and caution to get my train to terminal as close to on time as possible without endangering the lives of passengers, crewmembers, or others around or near the railroad, nor causing damage to freight nor to the railroad's equipment or property; if you're a foamer, then I'd run the wheels off the damned train and have the thrill of my life(?)!
zugmannSee this way, if there is a danger, then all the conductor would need is MORE COWBELL!
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
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Bucyrus 6.21 Precautions Against Unusual Conditions Protect trains and engines against any known condition that may interfere with their safety. When conditions restrict visibility, regulate speed to ensure that crew members can observe and comply with signal indications. In unusually heavy rain, storm, or high water, trains and engines must approach bridges, culverts, and other potentially hazardous points prepared to stop. If they cannot proceed safely, they must stop until it is safe to resume movement.
Protect trains and engines against any known condition that may interfere with their safety.
In unusually heavy rain, storm, or high water, trains and engines must approach bridges, culverts, and other potentially hazardous points prepared to stop. If they cannot proceed safely, they must stop until it is safe to resume movement.
I see that semantics comes into play here. How does one judge?
I'm going to be more likely to go 40mph. I've seen deer jump out in front of my car in fog and get nailed--well, actually clipped--so I am somewhat prepared to stop. Now, on a train I'd be looking at maybe the same or a little lower, say, 30mph--but not 10mph!
There is no perfect answer to this one. All it says is to regulate speed and that is where interpretation comes into play.
This rule speaks of visibility problems, saying that crews must regulate speed so signals can be complied with. It does not directly address visibility problems where no signals exist. Would switch targets and fixed wayside signs count as signals? They are items that must be seen in order to pass them; correct me if I'm wrong.
I would judge that zero-visibility fog would qualify for what is set forth in the first sentence.
The second sentence ties speed with visibility.
The third sentence refers to unusual weather events, but does not directly mention fog.
Maximum authorized speed.
In the past, there have been uproars over the moderation style advnced towards threads like this. Once everyone gets done knocking heads over something inconsequential like fog, then these types threads tend to turn into name-calling and pot-shot type threads. Then, they tuen ugly and go over the edge with gusto. That being said, please contunue the conversation at hand. But, what say we cut out the name-calling, the snarky, baiting remarks, and pot-shots, and just try to be civil with one another? Besides, it's late, and I have to work in the morning.
zugmann blownout cylinder zugmann Maybe we should make the conductor walk in front of the train ringing a cowbell. Ah nuts, someone'd be kvetching about the noise----grrr You think maybe a sea grade flare gun mounted at the front might help? See this way, if there is a danger, then all the conductor would need is MORE COWBELL! sorry. that was bad. sorry. PS. I don't think I'm allowed to have a flare gun. I've been known to set road-side brush on fire just by tossing fusees by hand. Much to the engineer's amusement.
blownout cylinder zugmann Maybe we should make the conductor walk in front of the train ringing a cowbell. Ah nuts, someone'd be kvetching about the noise----grrr You think maybe a sea grade flare gun mounted at the front might help?
zugmann Maybe we should make the conductor walk in front of the train ringing a cowbell.
Ah nuts, someone'd be kvetching about the noise----grrr
You think maybe a sea grade flare gun mounted at the front might help?
See this way, if there is a danger, then all the conductor would need is MORE COWBELL!
sorry. that was bad. sorry.
PS. I don't think I'm allowed to have a flare gun. I've been known to set road-side brush on fire just by tossing fusees by hand. Much to the engineer's amusement.
Besides if you toss a fusee towards a phoamer they will spontaneously explode......
blownout cylinderzugmann Maybe we should make the conductor walk in front of the train ringing a cowbell. Ah nuts, someone'd be kvetching about the noise----grrr You think maybe a sea grade flare gun mounted at the front might help?
ring ring ring ring ring ring ring ding ding ding ding.......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UzGykwlGlk
Maybe we should make the conductor walk in front of the train ringing a cowbell.
Keep everyone safe.
jeffhergert General Code of Operating Rules Rule 6.21 Precaustions against unusual conditions http://www.railroadcontrols.com/gcor/movement.html#6.21 (The link is to an older version of GCOR, but the rule is still there in current versions.) The applicable part of that rule to this discussion is: "When conditions restrict visibility, regulate speed to ensure that crew members can observe and comply with signal indications." Open to interpretation, just as is the answer from the FRA. I am beginning to understand why some railroaders (current and former) have left or cut back their participation in the forums. Jeff
General Code of Operating Rules
Rule 6.21 Precaustions against unusual conditions
http://www.railroadcontrols.com/gcor/movement.html#6.21 (The link is to an older version of GCOR, but the rule is still there in current versions.)
The applicable part of that rule to this discussion is: "When conditions restrict visibility, regulate speed to ensure that crew members can observe and comply with signal indications."
Open to interpretation, just as is the answer from the FRA.
I am beginning to understand why some railroaders (current and former) have left or cut back their participation in the forums.
I somehow missed this entirely. Here is where things get hairy. Note the phrasing that is bolded out. Open to interpretation. Things can go AWOL even on dead straight track on a sunny day. Would they have to go crawling around at walking speed all the time?
Jeff: I can very well see why some have cut back or left.
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