schlimm But Barry, isn't the gasoline/petrol tax higher in Canada than down here?
But Barry, isn't the gasoline/petrol tax higher in Canada than down here?
Yep. And we pay more for just about everything too---
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
A couple of comments here.
I do a lot of driving in areas that do not involve multi lane freeways. My territory covers a lot of rural communities that service the agricultural area north of London ON. To get to the 401 from Harriston takes about 2.5 hours. Owen Sound about 3 to 3.5 hours. I can already guess just how popular any tolling will be up here....
Most farms of here are still family owned/operated. There are factory farms, yes, but we still have a lot of the other farms. Not all have been doing as well as we think----most of our food is still comparitively cheap and these farmers are not getting the barrels of $$$$ as some think they are. If these farmers/food producers end up paying a wacking amount of road tolls simply to go from point A to point B do not be surprised if your food bill goes up.....trucking produce to market will cost more hence urbanites will be crabbing about the cost of food more---
And I'm not even going to ask how that will effect the other sectors even---
I do think that there are regional means of dealing with this issue----a "one size fits all" approach just does not cut it here
BT CPSO 266It's going to come down to high taxes on gas and tolls on roadways, because they are not paying for themselves as well. We just can't keep putting more and more traffic on the highways and not expect their maintenance cost of go up.
I'm not opposed to the idea of gasoline taxes. I'm opposed to the idea of a nationwide gas tax to fund HSR, and especially to the idea that such a tax would be a "penalty" to those who wish to use their cars/trucks. There are places in this country that one could do well with little automobile use. Likewise, there are definately places that being punished for auto use is simply not fair because there are NO other options.
And you can't play the "why should a rancher pay for a system he won't use" card. How many interstates are there in this country? I driven on maybe 7 of them, also air transportation is heavily subsidized by the government with my taxes and I have never stepped foot in an airport.
Yes I can. Why should that rancher in the middle of nowhere NE or WY have to pay a tax that's funding HSR in Southern California? Or a tax that's serving as a penalty for using an automobile? The difference between you and him is that you choose not to use the interstate system or the airports. Neither is unavailable to you.
So let's say we add a $1.00 or $2.00 tax nationally to fund public transit and to "punish" automotive usage. For urban America, no big deal. We'd complain a lot, but we'd still be able to use public transit to get where we need to go. What are you going to tell that rancher? Just take the bus? Jump on the high speed rail line that runs past his place?
If I can drive to Latrobe, catch a morning train to Pittsburgh, use mass transit, and then take an evening train back, that would be what I would be well spent tax money, and you know there are countless other scenarios like that in this country.
How would one do the same in let's say, Worland, WY?
If high speed rail is highly developed and mass transit is extensive, then you can kiss goodbye to regional airlines, and there are people afraid of that. They rather strain are congested two modes of transportation instead of giving intercity travelers something they want and is NEEDED for us to continue to prosper. You laugh at gas prices getting has high as they are in Europe but I don't see it so much further down the line for them to get that high here, because those highways and airlines are not cheap either, you need to take the stain off of them. When I look 50 years down the road either we will have and extensive high speed rail network or complete transportation breakdown. High Speed rail is not to replace all of car travel or air travel but it will make it more convenient for quiet a few people that use them now.
You laugh at gas prices getting has high as they are in Europe but I don't see it so much further down the line for them to get that high here, because those highways and airlines are not cheap either, you need to take the stain off of them. When I look 50 years down the road either we will have and extensive high speed rail network or complete transportation breakdown.
High Speed rail is not to replace all of car travel or air travel but it will make it more convenient for quiet a few people that use them now.
Again, my argument isn't with high speed rail, or figuring out how to fund it where it makes sense. I just don't think that it's fair to serve up a nationwide tax and toll every road as was suggested specifically as a means of funding HSR and serving as a punishment for automobile use.
-ChrisWest Chicago, ILChristopher May Fine Art Photography"In wisdom gathered over time I have found that every experience is a form of exploration." ~Ansel Adams
It's going to come down to high taxes on gas and tolls on roadways, because they are not paying for themselves as well. We just can't keep putting more and more traffic on the highways and not expect their maintenance cost of go up.
Airlines have become to costly as well, and quit simply a hassle.
If high speed rail is highly developed and mass transit is extensive, then you can kiss goodbye to regional airlines, and there are people afraid of that. They rather strain are congested two modes of transportation instead of giving intercity travelers something they want and is NEEDED for us to continue to prosper.
oltmanndGot it! Thanks for the explanation. Agree that cars are not "evil", but some sort of gas tax increase in inevitable if only to keep the highways we have from crumbling to dust. The current tax is way down from 15 years ago after you adjust for inflation. Also, some sort of tax might be useful to push things along toward more efficient vehicles and less imported oil. It could also be fluctuated to stabilize prices during price shocks (Katrina, OPEC, you name it....)
Agreed. And a gasoline tax makes sense for all of those things. I'm just opposed to the idea of a nationwide tax to fund HSR. If it was a localized thing, I wouldn't oppose it either. Urban dwellers would certainly see benefits from HSR funded through a gasoline tax even if they didn't directly use the HSR. I just don't think it's fair to add a nationwide HSR gas tax because rural America will see no benefits from it whatsoever.
CopCarSSI'm just against the premise that cars are evil and that we should jack up taxes and toll every road to drive people away from their cars. There are a LOT of places in this country where cars are an absolute necessity because no other transportation mode can serve the public. If we evolve to such a state that owning and operating vehicles is viewed as a social evil, that's the point when I pack my bags.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
oltmanndIf we did 50 cents per gallon, where could you go to find cheaper gas? Saudi Arabia? Venezuela? Certainly none of the G8. We are just at the edges of coming out of the worst recession in 60 years and gas only dropped to $2.50 a gallon - which is surprising to me. What do you think it will do in a few years once the economy gets going? I wouldn't bet against $3-4.00 a gallon again - without any tax increase.
It's not so much the price, it's the thought process that if we just hike up gas tax to European rates, high speed rail is just going to magically happen. The difference is that the US isn't Europe. Why should a rancher in the Nebraska panhandle (who will never see rail service, let alone high speed rail service) have to pay that $.50/gallon tax for something that will do nothing but increase costs for his operation?
I'm just against the premise that cars are evil and that we should jack up taxes and toll every road to drive people away from their cars. There are a LOT of places in this country where cars are an absolute necessity because no other transportation mode can serve the public. If we evolve to such a state that owning and operating vehicles is viewed as a social evil, that's the point when I pack my bags.
schlimm Bucyrus There is one more component needed to make passenger rail become the preferred national method of travel. That is a high tax on gasoline, coupled with high tolls on every road. It will kill two birds with one stone by getting people out of their cars and into the trains; and it will pay for the trains. There is no need to wait for the public attitude to change when you can just use force. This is a straw man argument designed to make others think that forced toll roads and gasoline taxes are the method of payment. As long as you are up to using these rhetorical devices, I see no valid reason to respond to your postings. You have made it abundantly clear you oppose HSR, etc.
Bucyrus There is one more component needed to make passenger rail become the preferred national method of travel. That is a high tax on gasoline, coupled with high tolls on every road. It will kill two birds with one stone by getting people out of their cars and into the trains; and it will pay for the trains. There is no need to wait for the public attitude to change when you can just use force.
There is one more component needed to make passenger rail become the preferred national method of travel. That is a high tax on gasoline, coupled with high tolls on every road. It will kill two birds with one stone by getting people out of their cars and into the trains; and it will pay for the trains. There is no need to wait for the public attitude to change when you can just use force.
This is a straw man argument designed to make others think that forced toll roads and gasoline taxes are the method of payment. As long as you are up to using these rhetorical devices, I see no valid reason to respond to your postings. You have made it abundantly clear you oppose HSR, etc.
Rhetorical devices? Straw man argument?
Getting travelers off of the roads is one of the stated objectives for HSR. Encouraging reduced consumption of oil by taxing motor fuels is also a commonly proposed public policy objective. The FRA is on the record as stating that the purpose of HSR is as follows:
1) To reduce CO2 by six billion pounds.
2) To create new jobs.
3) To offer a new choice for travelers.
4) To reduce the dependency on oil.
5) To foster urban and rural communities.
I don’t believe that HSR will go very far in fulfilling the stated objective to get people out of their cars. So raising the cost of driving will be needed to do the trick. HSR is the carrot. High gas taxes will be the stick. If you look into the grass roots HSR boosterism, you find this to be one of their commonly stated ideas. I do agree that it is pretty spooky.
CopCarSSA high tax on gasoline? Tolls on every road? Pardon me, but if either of those happen, I'm moving to another country.
schlimmSo, other than taking pot shots at the concept, are you saying nothing can make HSR succeed?
Absolutely yes I am. But again, it depends on what the defintion of succeed is. What is your definition of succeed as it applies to HSR?
schlimm BucyrusThe FRA proposal is a tiny objective compared to building HSR that is capable of meeting everyone’s travel needs for time and place at a price that is cost effective for the traveler. For that objective, it might be much easier to just reduce everyone’s travel needs by restructuring society...I am of the opinion that the money-spending layers of administrative overhead will rise up to the task of consuming that $13 billion before the first rail is laid. So, other than taking pot shots at the concept, are you saying nothing can make HSR succeed?
BucyrusThe FRA proposal is a tiny objective compared to building HSR that is capable of meeting everyone’s travel needs for time and place at a price that is cost effective for the traveler. For that objective, it might be much easier to just reduce everyone’s travel needs by restructuring society...I am of the opinion that the money-spending layers of administrative overhead will rise up to the task of consuming that $13 billion before the first rail is laid.
So, other than taking pot shots at the concept, are you saying nothing can make HSR succeed?
I'm almost wondering whether the amount of $$$$ discussed is just for the overhead, period. How is anything going to be done with just that?
Maybe the real question should be ---is there the politicosocial will to do HSR at all? Me. I kind of doubt it. And it has zip to do with the car------
A high tax on gasoline? Tolls on every road? Pardon me, but if either of those happen, I'm moving to another country.
oltmanndRailway ManMoneyAgree. All the other obstacles can be overcome with enough money.
Railway ManMoney
The FRA has proposed a national system consisting of ten corridors, with the money coming from the federal government and states, and they have committed $13 billion for what they term a down payment. What will be the total price? Surely the FRA must have calculated the total.
I am of the opinion that the money-spending layers of administrative overhead will rise up to the task of consuming that $13 billion before the first rail is laid.
An HSR system that provides a seamless travel experience to each individual rider would be wonderful, but that is a quantum leap beyond what is being contemplated even with the full national plan proposed by the FRA.
The FRA proposal is a tiny objective compared to building HSR that is capable of meeting everyone’s travel needs for time and place at a price that is cost effective for the traveler. For that objective, it might be much easier to just reduce everyone’s travel needs by restructuring society.
henry6 How many threads, how many revivals of threads, how many different headlines and different titles for threads does it take to ask and answer the same question? Or is it when one closes down or gets too unwieldly you just start anew?
How many threads, how many revivals of threads, how many different headlines and different titles for threads does it take to ask and answer the same question? Or is it when one closes down or gets too unwieldly you just start anew?
As many as it takes to get answers from us'uns-------
BucyrusWhat do you mean by succeed?
What do you mean by succeed?
Prosper, used, provides benefits; this is what I mean and how I look at success.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
Railway Manmoney
Add to what RWM said,
"Money!!! Money!!! and Mo' Money!!!
Plus a serious attitude change in the American population's perspective; to encompass all the things mentioned, convienience of schedules, locations served and cost effectiveness of the service provided.
Do not forget it took the Europeans many years to achieve the relatively limited network of HSR service over the conventional rail network; as well, the Japanese system of HSR took many years to assemble.
The major hurdle for the American system to overcome will be the current rush of the Federal Government to jump into a financial abyss. Not to mention NIMBY's and all the other special interests who think that their own ox is about to be gored, and are ready to lawyer up.
Amtrak vs the Airlines: for the first 3 quarters, FY2009, per "Amtrak Ink" newsletter:
Want to travel from Boston to New York, 50% take the train, 50% fly.
Want to travel New York to Washington DC, 61% take the train, 39% fly.
Los Angeles to San Diego, 97% take the train, air travel is dead.
Amtrak does not make a profit, neither do most airlines.
Don U. TCA 73-5735
Fast - Frequent - On time - City Center station in large cities with food court, car rental, AND mass transit at the station. Very quick platform stops at small towns.
Most important: Keep security at the level it is now, don't jump into the swamp of paranoia like the airports did.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
BT CPSO 266This is how I view the way high speed rail will need to succeed. 1.) Speed2.) Frequency3.) Co-operation with Mass Transit4.) Keep Freight & Passenger separate
This is how I view the way high speed rail will need to succeed.
1.) Speed
2.) Frequency
3.) Co-operation with Mass Transit
4.) Keep Freight & Passenger separate
2. Not frequency, but a schedule that fits travel demand. Out in the morning an back in the evening might be a good starting point. There are successful air routes that don't have great frequency, just convenient schedules.
3. Good coordination with local transit is nice, but not vital. Air service in most places does not have much, if any. You DO have to keep the first and last mile in mind, though.
4. Keeping passenger and freight separate is an artificial constraint. There are places where it makes great sense to keep them totally combined. Why mandate separation "just because"?
Jock Ellis Cumming, GA US of A Georgia Association of Railroad Passengers
BucyrusThere is no need to wait for the public attitude to change when you can just use force.
Quite so. Increase income tax to pay for the new track and new trains and increase gas tax and tolls to increase cost of driving so people will be priced out of their cars. Fast trains by the power of the gun!!! All we need for high speed rail to be successfull, that is to exist, is more taxes or for the Chinese and Saudis to buy more of our bad paper. Bad news is that the Chinese are cutting back on our debt, and I don't think the Saudis hold much. Why should they, they have a splendid cash cow in oil and enjoy the protection of our military.
The good news is that either we will have a revolution, hopefully at the ballot box, or our economy will collapse before we get very far into the OP's dreams.
Mac
Attitude changes, $$$$$, and a wacking great load of TIME!!!
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