This is how I view the way high speed rail will need to succeed.
1.) Speed
If you want Americans to chose rail over cars or air you need to make it convenient for them. A train going 110 mph is good for regional service and not long distance travel. However Americans are going to want faster service between cities. Although the current plan is to use existing right-of-ways that do serve more smaller cities and communities, and make it easier to draw in people from smaller cities into the larger urban areas; but as far intercity travel between major urban centers will require designated corridors 150 mph + . It would be expensive but would be worth the investment as studies show more of the countries population is living in cities and will offer a faster & more frequent service for travel, which brings me to my second point.
2.) Frequency
To make the train more convenient; frequency and the flexibility to travel at different intervals of the day to a city and even return the same day would be a huge plus to a lot of travelers.
3.) Co-operation with Mass Transit
A key issue is that once you get to an urban center it is difficult for there is no way to get around efficiently. The best way is to make Train stations in cities the hub of mass transit where light rail & buses could move travelers from the trains around the city to popular areas, and possibly invest in Personal Rapid Transit to taxi folk from the light rail and bus lines. Think about if you could drive to a station near you, use a park and ride option, take the train into the city and then just us mass transit for the rest of the day it would be a great travel option. If you make train stations the main transit center it could make travel flow a lot easier and not have people worrying if their would be a way to get around when they arrive.
4.) Keep Freight & Passenger separate
If you want passenger and freight trains to share the same right of way, there needs to be a separate track(s) for them. There operations cannot interfere with one another or else both operations suffer.
I know it's expensive to put all these things into effect, but if you make it convenient to a lot of people to travel by means of rail, it could pay off later, even if it does operate at a lose, the economic benefits, save in highway maintenance, less constrain on air travel, and a better option to travel would be worth the yearly loss. Every where else in the world the HS trains operate at a loss and yet they a vital components in their economies and travel, but you have to treat it like a component that co-operates with park and ride, and mass transit if it is going to prosper in the U.S.
That is how I see it. I am no expert by any means but I do know what would get me and many other people to make the train a more viable option for travel rather than an enjoyable vacation ride. These main reasons above would certainly get me to travel to cities and across the state more often then I do now.
What do you mean by succeed?
Commitment....Proper design....Locations.....Who to have responsiblity and ownership.....Did I say money......Some workable way of financing, long term.....Citizens attitude.
Quentin
Time and money!!
Modelcar Commitment....Proper design....Locations.....Who to have responsiblity and ownership.....Did I say money......Some workable way of financing, long term.....Citizens attitude.
Time and all the above more than I have left in my lifetime!!
Attitude changes; with that, others factors will follow.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Attitude changes, $$$$$, and a wacking great load of TIME!!!
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
There is one more component needed to make passenger rail become the preferred national method of travel. That is a high tax on gasoline, coupled with high tolls on every road. It will kill two birds with one stone by getting people out of their cars and into the trains; and it will pay for the trains. There is no need to wait for the public attitude to change when you can just use force.
BucyrusThere is no need to wait for the public attitude to change when you can just use force.
Quite so. Increase income tax to pay for the new track and new trains and increase gas tax and tolls to increase cost of driving so people will be priced out of their cars. Fast trains by the power of the gun!!! All we need for high speed rail to be successfull, that is to exist, is more taxes or for the Chinese and Saudis to buy more of our bad paper. Bad news is that the Chinese are cutting back on our debt, and I don't think the Saudis hold much. Why should they, they have a splendid cash cow in oil and enjoy the protection of our military.
The good news is that either we will have a revolution, hopefully at the ballot box, or our economy will collapse before we get very far into the OP's dreams.
Mac
Jock Ellis Cumming, GA US of A Georgia Association of Railroad Passengers
BT CPSO 266This is how I view the way high speed rail will need to succeed. 1.) Speed2.) Frequency3.) Co-operation with Mass Transit4.) Keep Freight & Passenger separate
2. Not frequency, but a schedule that fits travel demand. Out in the morning an back in the evening might be a good starting point. There are successful air routes that don't have great frequency, just convenient schedules.
3. Good coordination with local transit is nice, but not vital. Air service in most places does not have much, if any. You DO have to keep the first and last mile in mind, though.
4. Keeping passenger and freight separate is an artificial constraint. There are places where it makes great sense to keep them totally combined. Why mandate separation "just because"?
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Fast - Frequent - On time - City Center station in large cities with food court, car rental, AND mass transit at the station. Very quick platform stops at small towns.
Most important: Keep security at the level it is now, don't jump into the swamp of paranoia like the airports did.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Amtrak vs the Airlines: for the first 3 quarters, FY2009, per "Amtrak Ink" newsletter:
Want to travel from Boston to New York, 50% take the train, 50% fly.
Want to travel New York to Washington DC, 61% take the train, 39% fly.
Los Angeles to San Diego, 97% take the train, air travel is dead.
Amtrak does not make a profit, neither do most airlines.
Don U. TCA 73-5735
Railway Manmoney
Add to what RWM said,
"Money!!! Money!!! and Mo' Money!!!
Plus a serious attitude change in the American population's perspective; to encompass all the things mentioned, convienience of schedules, locations served and cost effectiveness of the service provided.
Do not forget it took the Europeans many years to achieve the relatively limited network of HSR service over the conventional rail network; as well, the Japanese system of HSR took many years to assemble.
The major hurdle for the American system to overcome will be the current rush of the Federal Government to jump into a financial abyss. Not to mention NIMBY's and all the other special interests who think that their own ox is about to be gored, and are ready to lawyer up.
How many threads, how many revivals of threads, how many different headlines and different titles for threads does it take to ask and answer the same question? Or is it when one closes down or gets too unwieldly you just start anew?
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
BucyrusWhat do you mean by succeed?
Prosper, used, provides benefits; this is what I mean and how I look at success.
henry6 How many threads, how many revivals of threads, how many different headlines and different titles for threads does it take to ask and answer the same question? Or is it when one closes down or gets too unwieldly you just start anew?
As many as it takes to get answers from us'uns-------
An HSR system that provides a seamless travel experience to each individual rider would be wonderful, but that is a quantum leap beyond what is being contemplated even with the full national plan proposed by the FRA.
The FRA proposal is a tiny objective compared to building HSR that is capable of meeting everyone’s travel needs for time and place at a price that is cost effective for the traveler. For that objective, it might be much easier to just reduce everyone’s travel needs by restructuring society.
Railway ManMoney
oltmanndRailway ManMoneyAgree. All the other obstacles can be overcome with enough money.
The FRA has proposed a national system consisting of ten corridors, with the money coming from the federal government and states, and they have committed $13 billion for what they term a down payment. What will be the total price? Surely the FRA must have calculated the total.
I am of the opinion that the money-spending layers of administrative overhead will rise up to the task of consuming that $13 billion before the first rail is laid.
BucyrusThe FRA proposal is a tiny objective compared to building HSR that is capable of meeting everyone’s travel needs for time and place at a price that is cost effective for the traveler. For that objective, it might be much easier to just reduce everyone’s travel needs by restructuring society...I am of the opinion that the money-spending layers of administrative overhead will rise up to the task of consuming that $13 billion before the first rail is laid.
So, other than taking pot shots at the concept, are you saying nothing can make HSR succeed?
Bucyrus There is one more component needed to make passenger rail become the preferred national method of travel. That is a high tax on gasoline, coupled with high tolls on every road. It will kill two birds with one stone by getting people out of their cars and into the trains; and it will pay for the trains. There is no need to wait for the public attitude to change when you can just use force.
A high tax on gasoline? Tolls on every road? Pardon me, but if either of those happen, I'm moving to another country.
-ChrisWest Chicago, ILChristopher May Fine Art Photography"In wisdom gathered over time I have found that every experience is a form of exploration." ~Ansel Adams
schlimm BucyrusThe FRA proposal is a tiny objective compared to building HSR that is capable of meeting everyone’s travel needs for time and place at a price that is cost effective for the traveler. For that objective, it might be much easier to just reduce everyone’s travel needs by restructuring society...I am of the opinion that the money-spending layers of administrative overhead will rise up to the task of consuming that $13 billion before the first rail is laid. So, other than taking pot shots at the concept, are you saying nothing can make HSR succeed?
I'm almost wondering whether the amount of $$$$ discussed is just for the overhead, period. How is anything going to be done with just that?
Maybe the real question should be ---is there the politicosocial will to do HSR at all? Me. I kind of doubt it. And it has zip to do with the car------
schlimmSo, other than taking pot shots at the concept, are you saying nothing can make HSR succeed?
Absolutely yes I am. But again, it depends on what the defintion of succeed is. What is your definition of succeed as it applies to HSR?
This is a straw man argument designed to make others think that forced toll roads and gasoline taxes are the method of payment. As long as you are up to using these rhetorical devices, I see no valid reason to respond to your postings. You have made it abundantly clear you oppose HSR, etc.
CopCarSSA high tax on gasoline? Tolls on every road? Pardon me, but if either of those happen, I'm moving to another country.
schlimm Bucyrus There is one more component needed to make passenger rail become the preferred national method of travel. That is a high tax on gasoline, coupled with high tolls on every road. It will kill two birds with one stone by getting people out of their cars and into the trains; and it will pay for the trains. There is no need to wait for the public attitude to change when you can just use force. This is a straw man argument designed to make others think that forced toll roads and gasoline taxes are the method of payment. As long as you are up to using these rhetorical devices, I see no valid reason to respond to your postings. You have made it abundantly clear you oppose HSR, etc.
Rhetorical devices? Straw man argument?
Getting travelers off of the roads is one of the stated objectives for HSR. Encouraging reduced consumption of oil by taxing motor fuels is also a commonly proposed public policy objective. The FRA is on the record as stating that the purpose of HSR is as follows:
1) To reduce CO2 by six billion pounds.
2) To create new jobs.
3) To offer a new choice for travelers.
4) To reduce the dependency on oil.
5) To foster urban and rural communities.
I don’t believe that HSR will go very far in fulfilling the stated objective to get people out of their cars. So raising the cost of driving will be needed to do the trick. HSR is the carrot. High gas taxes will be the stick. If you look into the grass roots HSR boosterism, you find this to be one of their commonly stated ideas. I do agree that it is pretty spooky.
oltmanndIf we did 50 cents per gallon, where could you go to find cheaper gas? Saudi Arabia? Venezuela? Certainly none of the G8. We are just at the edges of coming out of the worst recession in 60 years and gas only dropped to $2.50 a gallon - which is surprising to me. What do you think it will do in a few years once the economy gets going? I wouldn't bet against $3-4.00 a gallon again - without any tax increase.
It's not so much the price, it's the thought process that if we just hike up gas tax to European rates, high speed rail is just going to magically happen. The difference is that the US isn't Europe. Why should a rancher in the Nebraska panhandle (who will never see rail service, let alone high speed rail service) have to pay that $.50/gallon tax for something that will do nothing but increase costs for his operation?
I'm just against the premise that cars are evil and that we should jack up taxes and toll every road to drive people away from their cars. There are a LOT of places in this country where cars are an absolute necessity because no other transportation mode can serve the public. If we evolve to such a state that owning and operating vehicles is viewed as a social evil, that's the point when I pack my bags.
CopCarSSI'm just against the premise that cars are evil and that we should jack up taxes and toll every road to drive people away from their cars. There are a LOT of places in this country where cars are an absolute necessity because no other transportation mode can serve the public. If we evolve to such a state that owning and operating vehicles is viewed as a social evil, that's the point when I pack my bags.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.